Which of these buffs would be enough to make Bowser a tournament threat?

[conTAgi0n]

In his current form, it's unlikely that we'd ever see a Bowser reach top 8 in a major national tournament. However, I think Bowser has a lot going for him, and could rise to high tier with relatively minor improvements. Limiting myself to changes that seem in line with the balance patches we have had so far, here are some buffs that could make a big difference in Bowser's competitive viability. I am assuming a customs off environment, since that seems to be the direction we are moving in:

• Decrease nair landing lag
• Decrease fair landing lag
• Decrease start up time of aerial side b to match that of grounded side b
• Decrease end lag of dash attack
• Decrease end lag of missed grab/dash grab
• Reduce base knockback of up throw (so it becomes a combo throw at low percents)
• Reduce end lag and base knockback of down throw (so it becomes a combo throw at low percents)
• Increase knockback growth of forward or back throw
• Improve recharge rate of fire breath
• Reduce the decrease rate of fire breath
• Reduce the startup and end lag of fire breath
• Add hitboxes at the end of the fire breath animation (so the last few flames actually damage the opponent
• Increase hitstun caused by fire breath
• Give downsmash a slight vacuum effect (like Ganondorf's utilt or Sheik's side b)

It's possible that all of these together would be overkill. Which combination of these would be enough? Or is there a better change to make that I haven't thought of?

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

This was posted on the sub-reddit already. Also, for whatever reason, the list is missing fortress buffs, such as letting fortress run off platforms and ledges for the ledge cancel. Automatic frownie face.

 

[Odaroloc]

Bair and Fair should have reduced landing lag. That, or make Fair have a faster start up.

 

[Jerodak]

Up throw is actually already really good. Up throw to f-air works surprisingly late on a number of characters and can even k.o near the ledge. Then there's up throw to up air which is pretty awesome because it can k.o quite early and it's even a true combo at k.o percent in a few important match-ups. ( C.falcon and zss for instance.) Then even if it doesn't combo, you still have it as a mix-up to f-air.

As for buffs, other than the aforementioned fortress buffs. I'd like if Dsmash did like 30% when all the hits connected. I also wouldn't mind if fire breath could be angled during it's start-up so the hitboxes could generate where I wanted them to begin with. I also would not mind alternative inputs for angled tilts (-> + a, ^ during start-up = up angled f-tilt.) Whiffing hit two of down b after a successful punish with hit one can be troublesome and I would like that to get adjusted as well. Also, it would be great if side-b offstage always k.o'd the opponent, I don't mind losing in last stock situations, but if I have the lead and take my opponent off the side, then it seems fair that I should benefit. Finally, I would like if dtilt's first hit had less shield push and more shield stun so that it transitioned to hit 2 more reliably, maybe just having a 1-3 frame gap instead of 7 frames. Or maybe do the project m and require a second dtilt input for hit two.

 

[conTAgi0n]

This was posted on the sub-reddit already. Also, for whatever reason, the list is missing fortress buffs, such as letting fortress run off platforms and ledges for the ledge cancel. Automatic frownie face.

Yes, I also posted this on Reddit, but I thought it would probably stimulate better discussion here. I apologize if that violates a forum rule; if so I will remember that in future.

Letting fortress run off platforms is a great idea. I hadn't thought of that.

 

[Hitman JT]

All he needs is a combo-breaking aerial, something like his neutral-air from Melee. And invincibility on the grounded Fortress.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ conTAgi0n Nah, no violation here. Was just surprised. Good to know you're doing what you can for the sub-reddit.

 

[Big Sean]

To me there is only one fundamental reason he can't get top 8 at a national, and that's because he lacks tools for getting in on campy characters. One way to fix it would be to buff tough guy. Tough guy goes through needles, star bits, maybe even banana? that might be much. One buff that sounds drastic but I don't see significantly affecting the meta would be to make tough guy last till 100%. That way we can actually count on it as a core part of Bowser strategy, instead of a gimmicky surprise.

 

[MrEh]

Keep in mind that if you want Bowser to be a tournament threat, we'd be buffing him to the point where he would be a high tier character. Being a tournament threat doesn't mean your character is balanced in this game. It means that you're probably unbalanced most likely.

I'm looking more toward changes that would make him solid mid tier. I'm not looking for Utilt-level buffs to all of his moves. Not gonna lie, that Utilt buff was insane.


Stuff he NEEDS

-Combos from throws.
Combos are actually important in this game, and it's a damn shame how basically every character gets consistent combos off throws and Bowser doesn't. It's actually a huge trend for heavyweights in this game to have fantastic throw games. Dedede and DK have had it since launch, and even Zard has an amazing Dthrow post patch. Bowser getting nearly nothing off his throws at low-mid percents is ridiculously bad, even more so since he has to work hard to land throws.

-Extend range of air Klaw forward and downwards.
Because this move's hitbox basically doesn't exist. Making the air version of this move usable would be very important for making this move an actual thing, since it's currently in its weakest incarnation in smash history. Outside of personal preference, Dash Slash just offers too much atm. (even on stages with platforms, I still think Dash Slash is correct) I don't think it's because Dash Slash is too strong or anything. That move is quite fair. Klaw is just so bad right now.

-Fix Jab 1 so that it always combos into Jab 2
Consistency issue.

-Fix Bowser Bomb rising hit so that it always combos into the stomp
Consistency again.


Stuff I WANT

-Change Nair to a single hit
This move trades poorly against nearly everything in the game. Making it a single lingering hitbox would work wonders for this move. Simply making this move a single hit, even a decaying knockback/damage hit, would be awesome for Bowser's air game. Changing the end lag of this move is not something I like, since trying to approach with this move in general is bad and you should feel bad for attempting it.

-Decreased recovery on Ftilt
This would make the move a wonderful anti air. Currently it's too easy to get punished while using this move in footsies. The faster pace of this game makes this move much worse than its Brawl incarnation, and it still doesn't have the lingering BS that the Melee version had.

-Make Dtilt require two button presses, allowing you to do only Dtilt1 if you wanted
Makes Dtilt less laggy if you only wanted the first swipe. Helps tremendously for ledge pressure and footsies.

-Make Fortress able to slide off platforms and ledges
Why not? He could do it before. Surely Sakurai couldn't have been THAT worried about casual players SDing. Casual players never Fortressed off ledges in the first place.

-Make Fortress invincible from frame 1-5
Sakurai pls

 

[Zigsta]

IMO he would benefit much more from having his jump not so floaty and giving him better coverage for his blind spot.

 

[conTAgi0n]

A little more about the rationale behind the buffs I selected:

To my knowledge, no character has ever had their underlying physics changed in any balance patch. No one's fast fall speed, walking speed, weight, or anything of that nature has ever been altered. Mostly what has been changed is frame data, damage, or knockback. This is why I didn't include changes like altering Bowser's fast fall speed or anything like that - they just don't seem like changes Sakurai would make.

I had two main goals in mind with the changes I proposed: give Bowser better landing options, and give him a better throw game. The other changes were to make some of his tools more useful and less risky. I wasn't sure how best to improve his options against projectile camping, other than making fire breath better and safer, and making his aerial game safer.

 

[S_B]

I would like to have his old Dair back, or make his current one end when we let go of the button or something: Bowser isn't good enough that he can afford to have a move that will kill him outright if he uses it over the edge (unlike Shiek, Sonic and ZSS who are still tournament threats even with this handicap).

Also, I'd LOOOOVE his cancellable down+B from project M. Makes for a fantastic mobility tool AND a mixup...

And to echo what I said in the "what happened to Bowser" thread: followups off of throws, FFS! It's become clear that more and more characters have "hoo-haas" in this game (though some rely upon customs to access them), most of which murder Bowser silly.

If he had one of his own, he'd probably rise a tier or two because his pivot grab is INSANE and just having a reliable means of ending a stock off a grab would be a GODSEND for him. The last thing you want to do as Bowser is push your opponent into high enough rage where they can negate your weight advantage.

The other thing on that list that I like is faster startup or end time for firebreath, specifically END lag. Bowser takes, what, 10 frames to effectively just close his damn mouth? If FB were less risky to use, I'm sure you'd see people using it more often, but it's just such a free punish on Bowser, even if it gets shielded at medium range.

These are all changes that casual players wouldn't capitalize on so I feel like it'd be nice to see a few of them...

 

[MrEh]

It's just so damned inconsistent.

Heavyweights have awesome throw followups in this game. All of them except Bowser. The rationale possibly being that he has Klaw, but Klaw sucks and is much harder to land than a regular throw.

I don't get it.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Charizard got massive throw overhauls, so it's not outside of the realm of possibility that Bowser won't get any in the future.

 

[Boozer]

i'd like them to give dthrow SOME kind of reason to exist other than for the l0ls

that would be nice <:

 

[Cassius.]

Nah, new Bowser DAir is ridiculous. There's so much tech and a bunch of uses for it...you don't even have to use it offstage. The fact that it hits slightly below the edge and that we can pull back with it is good enough.

If Bowser had old NAir, whether it be Brawl or Melee, it would be great. I'm with Troof (is it JT, now? I know that's your NNID), it wouldn't necessarily combo break because there usually aren't 7-8 frame gaps in true combos, but it would be his fastest aerial, would trade in a few strings and would break fraudulent strings, free. But that's never going to happen, so we have to get over it lol. Even keeping the NAir he has now but just making it...more useful would be nice.

He NEEDS the Bowsercide mechanic to be fixed. I'm sick of the inconsistency.

He NEEDS air Klaw to be fixed. Even though I'm becoming better at landing it every time I lay hands on this game, the hitbox is still absolute trash.

He NEEDS that edge protection mechanic to be removed. If Bowser could move off of platforms/edges of stages with Up-B again, that would be amazing to make the move safe in MUs where it really matters, and would be yet another good ledge trump tool since it hits below the edge of certain stages as well (let's edgeguard spacies for free some more).

The firebreath buff Jero mentioned is actually great, and I never thought about that.

A consistent throw option would be good. No matter how weird the set up may be, we need a way to deal consistent damage. Lower the output on uthrow if you need to. But give us something consistent.

I really think all of his aerials are fine. A frame 9 intangible UAir is better for some situations than you may think. Frame 9 BAir is really dope for Bowser. there are a bunch of situations where you actually can have your back to your opponent now.

You don't want to break Bowser. A lot of weird and mindless buffs like giving him armor for every little thing or giving him a down b cancel will just make it dumb to fight against him. There needs to be a consequence for moves like that. PM is trash anyway, but there are subtle things that they have that do make sense, like the down tilt mechanic.

All you really have to do is fix weird inconsistencies like bowsercides, tough guy not having a consistent threshold for moves its supposed to armor through, jabs not connecting, down b hits being inconsistent in certain situations and character sizes, fix air Klaw, MAYBE improve frame data on firebreath, a consistent throw setup on either down or up throw, and he'll be somewhat better. He'll still have issues landing, but it is what it is. There's nothing we can really give him in simple frame data improvements that will fix that problem unless they just completely revamp an aerial move or make his airdodge ridiculous.

 

[MrEh]

None of Bowser's moves make sense to have armor anyway. Dunno why people always seem to want it.

Dair could totally have autoguard and still not be broken though. Usmash has it, so the precedent is there. Dair would still be hella punishable, so why not? I personally would like the autoguard addition just for consistency's sake.

Hell, we all know that old Bair would have probably had autoguard if they decided to keep it.

 

[HeavyLobster]

A combo throw and reasonable landing lag reductions so Bowser isn't helpless in juggle situations are really the main thing Bowser needs, along with Sheik nerfs. Also being able to ledge snap on Up-B while facing away from the stage needs to happen. Bowser's decent enough in neutral as is, he just has issues with reward and can't land.

 

[MrEh]

Landing lag reductions won't help him in juggle situations though. Landing lag only applies if Bowser actually hits the ground.

When Bowser gets juggled, he's NEVER getting back down. lol

 

[Cassius.]

Like I said before, I'm really starting to think that there isn't much we can do to help Bowser's landing problem. If we fix aerial Klaw, it'll make it like how it was in Brawl where even though he had a landing issue, you couldn't stand directly in front or behind him (then it opens of the 50-50 where Bowser has to guess how they're going to punish your landing. We have to guess right or left or choose a different defensive option).

The only improvements this game offers in that instance--if the buff comes-- is this; in order to get around Klaw, they have to spotdodge it, roll behind us or reset to neutral and just drop the punish altogether, OR, just throw a hitbox out now since grabs don't have armor in this game (but that opens up another realm of possibilities. We can just come down with an attack and trade, which will more than likely be in our favor.) for the first three options, Up-b is a multi hit move now, so we can punish all of those options where they roll and spotdodge.

This means with the Klaw buff that, in theory, bowser's blind spot has been somewhat circumvented, but not really since he still has no moves that are safe to throw out directly underneath him.

Fixing his fundamental problem is very difficult to do without changing something completely in his tool-kit. Frame data won't be enough, and there's not much else they can do aside from that. They're not going to change his air speed values, and they're not going to just randomly change how grabs work in this game either.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Dair apparently has shell intangibility but I've never really noticed it.

Also give Bowser Luigi's nair.

 

[conTAgi0n]

The question isn't so much how to "fix" Bowser's flaws. His flaws don't have to be completely solved for him to rise to high tiers. Even high tier characters have problems. Hell, even Sheik doesn't really have a lot of great kill moves.

What Bowser needs to be high tier is to have some of his flaws mitigated, so that they aren't devastating. Reducing end lag for fair and nair would improve his landing options. He still won't have great landing options, but it wouldn't be as extreme or as exploitable a weakness.

If what Bowser needs more is an aerial that comes out faster to disrupt strings, maybe reduce start up lag plus end lag on nair?

 

[Jerodak]

I've occasionally noticed dair plowing through a few things like yoshi eggs and pikmin up air. Not sure if that is related to shellguard or not though. Unless dair works more like the hylian/hero shield than an up smash.

 

[a stray cat]

One buff I'd really like is to make Bowser's aerial up-b safe on hit. It's virtually never safe on hit unless you snap to the ledge, but most other characters you have the mixup up being able to tag people on recovery and get back on stage with some advantage...but if you tag someone coming back on stage as Bowser you're still a sitting duck.

 

[MrEh]

Dair apparently has shell intangibility but I've never really noticed it.

It does, but the issue is that Bowser's hurtbox is still so damn big during Dair.

It trades with stuff it shouldn't, and I've actually been beaten CLEAN by non-sword aerials before. That kind of stuff doesn't even make sense.

 

[Godzillionaire]

I feel like nair should have more priority and less landing lag, similar to his older nair. It's a bit ridiculous when a giant turtle monster waves around all his limbs at full force and one small little attack from the opponent cancels it out.

 

[MrEh]

It also makes sense that a giant turtle monster flailing all of his limbs would lag a lot when he lands though.

 

[Godzillionaire]

It also makes sense that a giant turtle monster flailing all of his limbs would lag a lot when he lands though.

Eh, true. I just want my man to have an easier time getting back to the stage sometimes.

 

[MagiusNecros]

All the buffs in OP don't give us anything.

Fix Klaw.

Make Fortress awesome.

The end.

 

[S_B]

I had a thought the other night...

A small buff, but still an interesting one, might be to allow us to slightly steer down+B just like we can with dair.

Then, when we hit with the first grounded hitbox but the person is being knocked out of the way, we can compensate, as well as steer to ensure we catch the ledge when offstage.

 

[Cassius.]

I can understand altering the distance of Bowser's leap with grounded Bomb, but the aerial one, or when he's about to drop? He literally sits on his ass in the middle of the air. How and why would it be feasible to "steer" that

 

[MagiusNecros]

A better buff is actually ending Dair early with a button press instead of falling helplessly. Or putting full Shellguard on the way down.

All Shell attacks should have Shellguard.

 

[Cassius.]

with what, all four of the shell attacks? That's not a bad idea, I suppose.

again, for the same reason that a bowser bomb cancel is a horrible idea, DAir being able to be cancelled would do the exact same. With a move like that, there needs to be some sort of consequence. Moves like that need a very visible risk-reward tied to them lol

 

[MagiusNecros]

Lots of spikes have little consequence. Bowser's does. We can't be like Yoshi and throw our's out and be super safe.

 

[Jerodak]

However, Bowser's dunk is not only more active than most, with a larger hitbox to boot. It also launches powerfully if you miss the dunk timing and is still a k.o move.

 

[S_B]

I can understand altering the distance of Bowser's leap with grounded Bomb, but the aerial one, or when he's about to drop? He literally sits on his *** in the middle of the air. How and why would it be feasible to "steer" that

Any less feasible than being able to steer as he's plummeting in his shell? Or how Bowser loses all momentum when he uses aerial down b? I never really figured on bringing logic into this because of how silly the physics of the game are anyway. /shrug

Moves like that need a very visible risk-reward tied to them lol

True, but it could at least do what Sonic's Dair does which is end after a certain distance. Knowing the distance you have to fall before it cancels is just smart play and I see Sonics and ZSSes using it lagless onto the stage from time to time.

 

[MagiusNecros]

But yeah I think I'll be tooting the Shellguard horn we are the biggest and heaviest thing on the roster and look like a badass turtle dragon. Give that shell that beautiful up smash shellguard property.

I mean they gave Palutena Dash Attack and Bair.

And our Bair says no to 98% of projectiles in the game due to our intangible turtle legs.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

I'm pretty sure Bair doesn't make our legs intangible. I tested it on gordos.

 

[Jerodak]

I'm pretty sure Bair doesn't make our legs intangible. I tested it on gordos.

You're right, it doesn't, it's just high priority.

 

[MagiusNecros]

You're right, it doesn't, it's just high priority.

Really high priority. >_>