Which Nerfs Ganondorf Didn't Deserve From Brawl to Melee

[supersmash43]

I think the designers shouldn't have nerfed the following characteristics/attacks of Ganondorf:

-Mid-air Wizard's Foot should still allow the player to regain a jump thus still allowing it to help Ganon in his horizontal recovery. In Brawl Ganondorf's horizontal is now horrible as a result of the removal of this feature. Also, the knock back and damage for the Wizard's Foot shouldn't have been decreased.

-Dark dive shouldn't have been nerfed in terms of knock back and damage so badly (but the dark-upper cut ability from Brawl should still be there bc it helps against edge hoggers). Therefore, Dark Dive would still be a reliable KO move (Dark-Dive in Brawl however can't KO reliably unless the character is well over 200%).

-A sweet-spotted U-tilt A should still give an OHKO (thereby making it more powerful than the Warlock Punch in terms of knock back).

-His jumping height shouldn't been decreased (although I didn't notice that great of a difference from Melee in Brawl).


All the other changes Ganondorf received in Brawl I think are tolerable. What do you guys think? I don't mind the other changes as much as the ones I just listed.

 

[Claire Diviner]

You mean "Melee to Brawl" in your title.

As for a nerfing (that you haven't listed), I think they shouldn't have decreased his running speed. Also, I don't like how small they made the grab box of his Dark Dive or his actual grab.

 

[Judo777]

they didn't mean to nerf is fair but they coded it wrong so it cant autocancel.

 

[Exalted]

Sakurai and his crew must've been smoking when they programmed Ganon.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Sakurai and his crew must've been smoking when they programmed Ganon.

That, or they hate villains and other bad guys: wanting good to prevail. Who knows? Makes me wish Brawl had L-canceling, as it would greatly help Ganondorf.

 

[supersmash43]

they didn't mean to nerf is fair but they coded it wrong so it cant autocancel.

Yeah I know, but that's a relatively minor nerf compared to some of the other nerfs.

You mean "Melee to Brawl" in your title.

As for a nerfing (that you haven't listed), I think they shouldn't have decreased his running speed. Also, I don't like how small they made the grab box of his Dark Dive or his actual grab.

His running speed didn't receive that noticeable of a nerf. It probably has more to do with his shorter and slower back flips and rolls that makes his ground mobility much worse.

I don't mind the buffs Ganondorf received in Brawl (like longer range for f-tilt and d-tilt), but the nerfs still outweigh the buffs by a long shot imao. Do any of you guys mind any of the nerfs I listed originally?

 

[Exalted]

@Sol: It would also help every other character.
Btw, Sakurai plays as Ganondorf.

@SS43: The only nerf I really dislike is his Dark Dive losing next-to-all KO capability.

 

[supersmash43]

@Sol: It would also help every other character.
Btw, Sakurai plays as Ganondorf.

@SS43: The only nerf I really dislike is his Dark Dive losing next-to-all KO capability.

Wasn't his Wizard's Foot pretty useful for horizontal recovery? I think removing the extra jump feature from Wizard's Foot was a pretty big detriment (the same goes for C Falcon's Falcon Kick in Brawl).

 

[Exalted]

Yeah, it was just such a long time since I last played Melee. I'm considering getting a copy of it.

 

[Claire Diviner]

@supersmash43: The nerfs you've listed are indeed bad for Dorf, some of which is pretty crippling. The decreased knockback in Dark Dive becomes a liability for Ganon, as some characters can immediately attack and hit him after the move has resolved.

@Sol: It would also help every other character.
Btw, Sakurai plays as Ganondorf.

Agreed. Also, I didn't realize Sakurai plays Ganondorf. I find this surprising and ironic. O___o

 

[supersmash43]

@supersmash43: The nerfs you've listed are indeed bad for Dorf, some of which is pretty crippling. The decreased knockback in Dark Dive becomes a liability for Ganon, as some characters can immediately attack and hit him after the move has resolved.



Agreed. Also, I didn't realize Sakurai plays Ganondorf. I find this surprising and ironic. O___o

I feel a lot of the original cast has been nerfed for the sake of advertising the new characters. I use to like Ganondorf a lot in Melee, but in Brawl, it is very hard to play him competitively. I don't know why L-cancelling was removed in Brawl.

 

[Claire Diviner]

I feel a lot of the original cast has been nerfed for the sake of advertising the new characters. I use to like Ganondorf a lot in Melee, but in Brawl, it is very hard to play him competitively. I don't know why L-cancelling was removed in Brawl.

L-cancelling was probably removed because Sakurai was butt-hurt about characters being given an advantage by abusing powerful aerials whilst cancelling the landing lag: something that was supposed to make aerials - like Ganon's Fair - a high risk; high reward concept.

Also, even though it's difficult to use him competitively, it doesn't stop him from being fun to use.

 

[supersmash43]

L-cancelling was probably removed because Sakurai was butt-hurt about characters being given an advantage by abusing powerful aerials whilst cancelling the landing lag: something that was supposed to make aerials - like Ganon's Fair - a high risk; high reward concept.

Also, even though it's difficult to use him competitively, it doesn't stop him from being fun to use.

But L-canceling's removal has been detrimental especially to slower characters. It is removal has made Brawl less competitive imao and detrimental to all characters especially slow ones.

 

[Z1GMA]

Should've kept his (fast) jab,
as well as better grab-range, and yes, Dark Anvil resulting in a new DJ.

More up+b hitstun & autocanceled Fair.

...Also, Tipman hitting small characters.

 

[BSP]

I think his Fsmash is weaker too. I was played melee today and Ganon Fsmashed me as Mario and I died at 85% off the top. Ganon needs to be THAT much stronger than everyone else.

Wizard's Foot nerfes were all unnecessary too.

 

[supersmash43]

I think his Fsmash is weaker too. I was played melee today and Ganon Fsmashed me as Mario and I died at 85% off the top. Ganon needs to be THAT much stronger than everyone else.

Wizard's Foot nerfes were all unnecessary too.

What do you mean by needs to be that much stronger than everybody else?
Are you saying Ganondorf is ineffective unless his attacks are over powered?
Yeah the Wizard's Foot nerf was especially bad, but how badly do you think Ganondorf's recovery was affected by that nerf?

 

[Ganonsburg]

I loved that Fsmash sent them straight up, but I don't know if the change in angle is really a nerf or whatnot.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The Jab nerf was really cruel, especially considering how much better spotdodge got in Brawl. Not only does Ganon's Jab get ***** by spotdodge, it's too slow to really abuse with his own spotdodge.

Ganon lost grab range, which was also really unnecessary.

The change to Up-smash was pretty poor. The move is too slow and awkward to really implement effectively, and it's not nearly as powerful as it was in Melee.

Grounded wizkick not killing is dumb, especially since Ganon needs it to break zoning.

Up-B should be safe on hit, and do a lot of damage.

B-air has too much trouble hitting short characters safely.

Glitch on F-air autocancel window is dumb.

D-smash 2nd hit PULLS PEOPLE TOWARDS GANON on block.

F-tilt lost a lot of range. Can no longer hit short crouchers either.

Besides that, I love the changes to D-tilt, F-smash, D-air, N-air, and Ganon's throws. Oh and SideB.

 

[smashkng]

Nerfs I hate most are his jab coming out in frame 8 (making his close range game horrible) and having 5 cm in grab range. A punish character isn't supposed to not be able to punish OoS. Bair should really have a lower hitbox, if it had it we would have something that isn't situational but is safe on shield. And yeah Wizard Kick should still be like it was in Melee, doing 15% damage means it beats weak projectiles and still having a hitbox in the tip. And Wizard Kick still giving an extra jump would help a lot our recovery as well.

 

[JOE!]

But L-canceling's removal has been detrimental especially to slower characters. It is removal has made Brawl less competitive imao and detrimental to all characters especially slow ones.

I never got this argument:

sure, L-canceling helped slow chars make their slower moves faster, but the fast chars then make their fast moves even faster...

it's like there was no real loss or gain there...

 

[Claire Diviner]

Another issue I have with Wizard Kick is the fact that the foe avoids all damage if too close to Ganondorf, as there are no hitboxes at the very start of said move. =___=

I never got this argument:

sure, L-canceling helped slow chars make their slower moves faster, but the fast chars then make their fast moves even faster...

it's like there was no real loss or gain there...

That's quite true, though seeing as there's almost no landing lag for some of the fast characters' more useful aerials, it's safe to say L-cancelling would benefit the heavier characters than it would the lighter ones.

 

[supersmash43]

I never got this argument:

sure, L-canceling helped slow chars make their slower moves faster, but the fast chars then make their fast moves even faster...

it's like there was no real loss or gain there...

It benefits slower characters more than faster characters because the fast characters already perform their aerials with relatively little lag.

Another issue I have with Wizard Kick is the fact that the foe avoids all damage if too close to Ganondorf, as there are no hitboxes at the very start of said move. =___=

I honestly didn't notice that fact! Did the Wizard's Foot characters at the start of the move hit characters standing in contact with Ganondorf in Melee?

Nerfs I hate most are his jab coming out in frame 8 (making his close range game horrible) and having 5 cm in grab range. A punish character isn't supposed to not be able to punish OoS. Bair should really have a lower hitbox, if it had it we would have something that isn't situational but is safe on shield. And yeah Wizard Kick should still be like it was in Melee, doing 15% damage means it beats weak projectiles and still having a hitbox in the tip. And Wizard Kick still giving an extra jump would help a lot our recovery as well.

You mean out of shield? Ganondorf's grab range wasn't all that good in Melee either if I recall correctly. Wizard's Foot nerf is pretty bad too.

 

[smashkng]

Ganon's grab range in Melee was an average one IIRC, giving him a decent shield grab. In Brawl it has the worst range in the game. And with jab I mean having nothing faster than 8 frames makes the opponent win 90% of the time when Ganon and the opponent is very close to each other.

 

[DLA]

A2Z covered most of it.

IMO, the only thing they did right with Ganon in Brawl is his side B. If he had his melee side B, he'd be absolutely unplayable.

Most of the nerfs were really stupid... they nerfed his recovery, his jab, and his grab horrendously. But the nerf that hurt the most was the nerf on Fair. The coding error isn't even that relevant TBH; even if they didn't code it wrong, Ganon wouldn't be able to autocancel his Fair out of short hop, which would still make it useless for spacing purposes. Unless your opponent is in the air, you're still going to get that ******** landing lag every time you use Fair.

Also, they added a huge sourspot on Fair. As if the landing lag didn't make Fair bad enough... now we have to space it nearly perfectly if we want to hit with more knockback than our jab. Fair was Ganon's bread and butter in Melee, but now it's horribly unsafe and very situational.

 

[thexsunrosered]

I honestly think that if his jab came out on frame 3-5 and his grab range was at least as good as someone like sheik he would be so much more viable. He doesn't need everything fixed, every character has their flaws (lulmk), but I think if those two were better Ganon would be a billion times better

 

[Exalted]

tl;dr: Ganon sucks.

 

[smashkng]

There are so many weaknesses for us to cover. But I think Wario grab range, a 3 frame jab, Wizkick reflecting projectiles, having a decent recovery and his Bair having very low hitboxes is all Ganon needs to be viable.

 

[supersmash43]

Ganon's grab range in Melee was an average one IIRC, giving him a decent shield grab. In Brawl it has the worst range in the game. And with jab I mean having nothing faster than 8 frames makes the opponent win 90% of the time when Ganon and the opponent is very close to each other.

A2Z covered most of it.

IMO, the only thing they did right with Ganon in Brawl is his side B. If he had his melee side B, he'd be absolutely unplayable.

Most of the nerfs were really stupid... they nerfed his recovery, his jab, and his grab horrendously. But the nerf that hurt the most was the nerf on Fair. The coding error isn't even that relevant TBH; even if they didn't code it wrong, Ganon wouldn't be able to autocancel his Fair out of short hop, which would still make it useless for spacing purposes. Unless your opponent is in the air, you're still going to get that ******** landing lag every time you use Fair.

Also, they added a huge sourspot on Fair. As if the landing lag didn't make Fair bad enough... now we have to space it nearly perfectly if we want to hit with more knockback than our jab. Fair was Ganon's bread and butter in Melee, but now it's horribly unsafe and very situational.

I honestly think that if his jab came out on frame 3-5 and his grab range was at least as good as someone like sheik he would be so much more viable. He doesn't need everything fixed, every character has their flaws (lulmk), but I think if those two were better Ganon would be a billion times better

Whoa, Ganondorf got more nerfs than I originally thought! I agree with smashkng that the only significant buff they gave to Ganondorf in Brawl is the Flame Choke (even though it inflicts far less damage the Gerudo Dragon, it is arguably more comboable).

They did make Ganondorf's jab more powerful than in Melee but the consequences was far more lag. I don't think that was a signficiant nerf, and could arguably been a buff.

 

[Exalted]

Ganon is literally broken.
Also, a stronger jab makes it harder to combo out of.

 

[supersmash43]

Ganon is literally broken.
Also, a stronger jab makes it harder to combo out of.

If you are talking about broken as in sucks, then YES !! (as C Falcon would say!).

 

[Exalted]

If you are talking about broken as in sucks, then YES !! (as C Falcon would say!).

Yes.

 

[DLA]

Whoa, Ganondorf got more nerfs than I originally thought! I agree with smashkng that the only significant buff they gave to Ganondorf in Brawl is the Flame Choke (even though it inflicts far less damage the Gerudo Dragon, it is arguably more comboable).

They did make Ganondorf's jab more powerful than in Melee but the consequences was far more lag. I don't think that was a signficiant nerf, and could arguably been a buff.

They didn't necessarily buff Ganon's side B... they just updated it. Ganon can combo out of side B in Melee, and can also combo out of side B in Brawl. Inversely, Brawl Ganon wouldn't be able to combo out of Melee side B, while Melee Ganon probably wouldn't be able to combo out of Brawl side B (it would lead to a tech chase, but probably not any combos).


Also, I'm pretty sure Ganon's jab in brawl is almost exactly the same as melee, in terms of knockback. Brawl's might be a bit stronger, but it doesn't matter anyways because jab isn't a reliable kill move, so it really doesn't matter how much knockback it has.

 

[Exalted]

I'd say Ganon himself is just a huge nerf.

 

[supersmash43]

They didn't necessarily buff Ganon's side B... they just updated it. Ganon can combo out of side B in Melee, and can also combo out of side B in Brawl. Inversely, Brawl Ganon wouldn't be able to combo out of Melee side B, while Melee Ganon probably wouldn't be able to combo out of Brawl side B (it would lead to a tech chase, but probably not any combos).


Also, I'm pretty sure Ganon's jab in brawl is almost exactly the same as melee, in terms of knockback. Brawl's might be a bit stronger, but it doesn't matter anyways because jab isn't a reliable kill move, so it really doesn't matter how much knockback it has.

The Jab does 9% damage IIRC in Brawl whereas it only did 7% in Melee and has slightly more knock back and range (which is a buff because in Melee the range was rather short).

 

[smashkng]

In Brawl it does in most hitboxes 7% damage, tip does 9% damage and 5% damage on a hitbox that is very hard to tell. And Melee jab not only had only 3 frames start-up but also ended on like frame 20, which is 10 frames earlier than in Brawl.

 

[Exalted]

The knockback and range isn't as much of a concern as its speed. It's simply depressing.

 

[supersmash43]

In Brawl it does in most hitboxes 7% damage, tip does 9% damage and 5% damage on a hitbox that is very hard to tell.

Yeah I think you are right. It doesn't suffer from too much move decay, but it is still easy as hell for a skilled player (or high level CPU) to simply block the attack and then shield grab you.

 

[smashkng]

Lol CPUs at competitive smash.

 

[Exalted]

CPUs are unreliable, as they rarely make "human" mistakes.

 

[supersmash43]

CPUs are unreliable, as they rarely make "human" mistakes.

Yeah but that still doesn't change the fact that it wouldn't be hard for a skilled human player to shield grab the attack. CPU are pretty stupid however.