Where the Mii Fighters stand currently - rulings & Genesis 3

[Yikarur]

As much as it sucks, Mr. Wizard is RIGHT. If you open the customization screen there is an argument to be made that it should be ALL customs are one. I wrote about this even. I think the poll SHOULD have more ways to decide things as we're not being super logical about Miigality but if he doesn't allow it... He's got a right to do so.

Of course he has the "right" to do it. He is the tournament organizer. But thats not the way it should be because it discriminates the players of certain characters.
The rules decide the settings and everything in the realm of those settings should be allowed. Banning 3 completely viable characters is against competitive philosophy and should not be done.

We decide to play with Customs set to off.
The Game tells us "Mii's can be played as created even though Customs are of
-> Mii's should be allowed and free, because we don't ban characters.

I know you know that concept and yes Mi's should either be 100% allowed or 100% banned. But banning characters is not something we do traditionally.

We - should - not - ban - characters

And we have to work together to reach Mr. Wizard. Banning characters suck. These characters have a playerbase. This playerbase is screwed out of the game. This is UNFAIR. This is discriminating people just because they like a certain character.
This is not how is should be. And I hope everyone agrees on this one, because no one wants his main to be banned. No one.

 

[Dinoman96]

I'm not sure if Mii Fighters would be totally banned, they most likely just wouldn't have their custom specials...just like the rest of the cast.

You might say "WELL THEY MIGHT AS WELL BE BANNED", but well, Palutena is basically "banned" at this point, so you Mii players aren't the ones being screwed here. All the Mii Fighters have over Palutena is an inconsistency in Smash 4's menu design. Besides that, they work basically the same way.

 

[LiteralGrill]

To be fair Yikarur customizable characters of any kind HAVE been traditionally banned. I promise I want Miis 100% legal too so don't think I'm trying to be a downer, just want to figure out what people will say as an argument against them so proper counterarguments can be made.

 

[Yikarur]

I'm not sure if Mii Fighters would be totally banned, they most likely just wouldn't have their custom specials...just like the rest of the cast.

You might say "WELL THEY MIGHT AS WELL BE BANNED", but well, Palutena is basically "banned" at this point, so you Mii players aren't the ones being screwed here. All the Mii Fighters have over Palutena is an inconsistency in Smash 4's menu design. Besides that, they work basically the same way.

This would be even worse.
All Mii specials are treated equally. 1111, 1122, 2122, 2323, are all THE SAME by game design. All moves are their "custom specials"
Restricting them this way is the most arbitrary way to handle them. Saying "Mii's are banned" is at least a closed argumentation. "Mii's are 100% allowed" is a closed argumentation as well. "1111 only" has a lot of logical holes and should not be a thing.
Both arguments (banned and allowed) are objectively correct. But banning characters screws their playerbase and +3 characters is a good thing for a game and thus we should not ban them. It's unfair to their players.

To be fair Yikarur customizable characters of any kind HAVE been traditionally banned. I promise I want Miis 100% legal too so don't think I'm trying to be a downer, just want to figure out what people will say as an argument against them so proper counterarguments can be made.

Custom Fighters in other games are not the same as Mii's. "Mii" is an own character with few changable parameters. You don't create the character from scratch so I don't think they are comparable.

I hope we can somehow help to get Mii's legal. I don't have the influence to make things happen so I have to rely on big people to stand up and say something

 

[/|Sawtooth/|]

Custom Fighters in other games are not the same as Mii's. "Mii" is an own character with few changable parameters. You don't create the character from scratch so I don't think they are comparable.

I hope we can somehow help to get Mii's legal. I don't have the influence to make things happen so I have to rely on big people to stand up and say something

This is a big sticking point of the whole issue for me. Saying that 1111 is the "Default" is a flawed statement in itself. You can't load up a fresh copy of Smash Wii U and select a "Default" Mii Fighter, you have to specifically go into the Mii Fighter menu, and CREATE ONE FROM SCRATCH.

If the argument is to use what's considered "default", then using Guest Miis is the only logical restriction since they are the only Miis that come pre-baked into the Wii U/3DS, and I'm honestly okay with that.

 

[Dinoman96]

You know...I always kinda disagreed with the notion of "Miis don't have a default moveset!". For instance, look at Smash 4's manual.

In the segment that covers the playable characters, it showcases all of their default specials...Mii Fighters included. When Kirby swallows, say, a Mii Brawler, he just copies Shot Put, a default special, regardless of what other custom it was using, just like all the other characters.

Here's the thing, there's more to customizing Miis than just their specials. There's also their headwear, their costume, and equipment and stat boosts. When you create a Mii, the very first thing you're directed to isn't the custom specials menu, but the general main menu. You can create a Mii without even having to touch the specials tab.

So yes, like the rest of the cast, Mii Fighters do have a default set. Of course they're not the most optimal considering the point is that you're supposed to customize them, but they still have something that counts as a default set. Just like Palutena.

 

[Yikarur]

You could call them "default" if you're insisting but that does not oppose the philosophy of Mii's.
If you play the tournament mode and Mii fighters are allowed and customs are set to off you can use any Mii even though customizations are inactive. They are clearly intended to work that way.
You either 100% allow them, or 100% ban them but banning hurts the playerbase because dedicated Mii mains exist. You could read LiteralGrill article to get the idea.

 

[Unknownkid]

In the segment that covers the playable characters, it showcases all of their default specials...Mii Fighters included. When Kirby swallows, say, a Mii Brawler, he just copies Shot Put, a default special, regardless of what other custom it was using, just like all the other characters.

Not exactly for all other characters. Kirby copies Olimar's tackle pikman throw and sticky pikman throw depending on what custom Hammer he is using. In Default setting, Olimar's Default Side B is Sticky Pikman throw while Kirby's is Tackle Pikman (Olimar's Custom Side B).The Kirby Community knew this since EVO and it still has not been patched.
Next, Kirby has sound bits for all of Palutena's Neutral B. So I guess he was intended to use their custom moves. So I wouldn't use Kirby as an argument for Default moves. He is kind of weird.

 

[19_]

@MewtwoLucas @CLGNAKAT_ I will do my best as I do appreciate those chars.

— D1 (@xD1x) January 27, 2016

Well at least they are not completely dumping them but still.

Dapuffster does plan on going to evo (for pokken at least) and would like to see his mii brawler again.

@Jigglymaster @D1

 

[Yikarur]

I really hope for Mii's being free'd in the future..
Their meta cannot evolve at this rate. I cannot be the only Brawler in the world who evolves his meta. Every tournament I'm attending in europe has them (+moves) legal
AndI'd be happy to see a Brawler on-stream some day, because he is one of the flashiest characters to watch. Even Brawler mirror matches are a lot of fun. Please let them evolve..

 

[ぱみゅ]

Y'know, maybe Europe should work on diffusing their tournaments.
If Miis work there, if 3-stocks work there, if any of their not-occidental rules work, their players, or their character's metagame, all of that is only anecdotal because there are close to no streams, or even videos around.
If there is no evidence there you won't get into non-believers.

I, for one, hope as well that Miis don't get stigmatized this hard, they are not attached to Custom moves, and don't have enough impact on the overall metagame to break it.

 

[Konneh]

Y'know, maybe Europe should work on diffusing their tournaments.
If Miis work there, if 3-stocks work there, if any of their not-occidental rules work, their players, or their character's metagame, all of that is only anecdotal because there are close to no streams, or even videos around.

German tournaments are being streamed, they just don't gain a lot of attention.
Starting Friday Evening, I'm going to be streaming a 100 man tournament from Neuss, Germany at twitch.tv/SmashLabsDE (Singles are on Saturday). 3 weeks ago, a german major was streamed where even players like adom4 from other countries attended. From what I've gathered so far, it seems as though not many international viewers tune in. I'm still wondering what the problem is, possibly it's due to German commentary. I wonder where to get more international feedback about these things.

That said, tune in if you want to see 3 stock, 8 minute gameplay. For example, we'll be having Yikarur, who might be repping Brawler, and Narayan, who will definitely be repping Brawler (but I don't know whether he'll be on stream), legal with any moveset made from default Miis.

 

[Yikarur]

Y'know, maybe Europe should work on diffusing their tournaments.
If Miis work there, if 3-stocks work there, if any of their not-occidental rules work, their players, or their character's metagame, all of that is only anecdotal because there are close to no streams, or even videos around.
If there is no evidence there you won't get into non-believers.

I, for one, hope as well that Miis don't get stigmatized this hard, they are not attached to Custom moves, and don't have enough impact on the overall metagame to break it.

lol Europe has A LOT of streams. Every german national (100 man) is streamed and we have 1 per month at least. Just because no one in the US cares, doesn't mean we're not active.
If you're interested in german nationals you can follow www.twitch.tv/smashlabsde because about most german tournaments are streamed there and all german tournaments have Guest Mii's with full movesets.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I won't comment a lot on this because it's going off-topic, but you can also consider Youtube uploads.
I rarely watch streams due to a number of reasons, but youtube is a quick, practical alternative without having to watch the whole thing.

 

[Nobie]

As someone who's lived in both Europe and the US, the main killer is time zones. For the west coast in particular, there's a 9 hour difference between California and Germany for example. That's a killer.

The other factor is that streams like VGBC have a lot of inertia, though that's not to lessen the hard work GIMR etc. put in. It's the main reason I think some people will come in just to crap on Smash 4 (because they just enjoy going to the VGBC stream), but that's another topic.

The more I think about the custom Miis issue, the more a small thing sticks in my mind: What is up with Mii Brawler having his Up B and Down B be so danged similar? Sure, Sonic's kind of in a similar boat, but I don't think anyone would ever want two different UP THEN DOWN attacks.

 

[wizrad]

Soaring Axe Kick is the worst recovery move in the game ):

 

[Wintropy]

I yearn for the day when people tell me I can't play Dark Pit because he's a variation of Pit with a stronger special move. There will be no respite from the Angel Boiz~

I'm being ironic, but it's not a million miles away from how I see the Mii situation. I think people are just apprehensive about the prospect of having a secret top-tier emerging from the Miis or they dislike the idea of this character having more options at the CSS, but as a Pit main, I don't see how that's functionally different to the Pit / Pitoo dichotomy. If I'm having difficulty with a matchup as Pit, I can pick the "better" one with the cheesy kill option. Is it really a case of semantics (that's his default set, so it's okay if it's an objectively better move attached to an otherwise identical character) that's holding us back?

 

[Jams.]

Some players just hate the concept of Miis, because they see them as "insert your own OC" in a game supposedly filled with videogame icons. I know players in my community that feel Miis take away from the legitimacy of the game for this reason. Honestly, I don't think it's possible to argue(/worthwhile) with someone who has this opinion, but this group of people will be opposed to any rulings that increase the viability of these characters.

 

[Dinoman96]

It's also just because people see Mii specials as the same thing as custom specials. You all can argue about how they're 'different' but, ignoring the fact that Miis retain theirs when customs are off, they essentially work quite similarly. Miis do have a standard set of specials that can be swapped out, like the rest of the cast. Of course, the Smash community at large has the mindset that alternate custom specials are "cancerous jank", and well, considering that moves like Helicopter Kick are optional alternatives in the same way (outside of being able to use them in a customs-off environment), people lump them in.

 

[wizrad]

They may be optional, but it is not optional as to whether the moves should be allowed. The game has decided this for us and compounded that decision by putting a Mii switch into tourney mode. We're making arbitrary rules that are completely unwarranted.

 

[QuoteMarks]

After reading the entire thread these are my thoughts. There are two reasonable sides to this debate. Discounting those opting for outright banning. The sides, as I see them are the FullCustomMii and the StandardizedMii.


The below are Points Contention. The arguments assume customs are disabled.


1.Mii Movesets
(Full) Mii’s should be allowed their full Custom movesets. They are built into the character and can be accessed without enabling custom moves. They allow for better counterpicking


(Stand) Mii’s should have a single move set. This keeps the Mii Fighters from having the advantage of custom moves over Un-Customizable Characters. They should be limited to their 1111 moveset Like all other characters. Why should non-Mii characters have to learn the match-up for the 36 possible combinations.


1a. If Customs allowed
(Full) The Mii’s should be able to change movesets after each game to allow for counter picking.


(Stand)The Mii’s should be locked into a moveset for the duration of the set.


1b. If Customs Banned
(Full) The Mii’s should not be stuck with 1111 as their default moveset. It prevents optimal gameplay.


(Stand) The Mii’s should be left with 1111 as their default. Many characters have better moves in their customs are also stuck with 1111.


2. Mii height/weight
(Full) Mii’s should be allowed to have their individual Height and weight. Using a certain H/W for different players allow for more diverse and individualized play styles. Certain H/W also make the Mii’s more viable.


(Stand) Mii’s H/W Should not be Variable. Changing the H/W of the Mii’s will interfere with combos and Kill percents.


3. Mii aesthetic
(Full) Each Mii should be allowed to customise it's costume to keep Mii’s individual.


(Stand) The costume does nothing but make it take longer for the initial Fight/Tournament to begin.


4. Logistics
(Full) Not a problem Mii’s can be created via the 3DS and Transversed to the Wii-U’s via 3DS and ?Wiimote? 3DS’s can be loaned by the better prepared Mii’s


(Stand) The larger the tournament the more it becomes a problem. There are even more problems with finding the correct Wii-U’s.


5. Overview
(Full) The Mii’s should be as Customisable as possible it was designed that way. The Logistics can easily be dealt with. Each copy of the game has all but equipment and costumes unlocked the first time it is turned on. Yes the Mii’s were put in the game for casuals and as such have been ignored by Nintendo in patches of the game and in its Default moveset. Customs are the only way for Mii’s to become viable in this game.


(Stand) The Mii’s should not be customised. It does not matter if it was designed that way. The Logistics are to much of a problem. The customising of those three Characters creates 36 new matchups to deal with scaring away more new competitors. Instead of complaining about customs you should be in the lab working on your metagame. You don't need the Moveset.


OK that was my shortened down impression of the argument that has been going on on this thread. Now here is my suggestion.


Compromise, start with a rule set that can be agreed to be in between these views. Here something to work with.


The Mii Fighter community should get together and vote as a whole on the “Standard Moveset” of each of the three fighters. You would do this monthly (or some other time interval) but must give the TO’s a set amount of time (To be agreed on later) to adjust to the rule set.


The Height and Weight of the Mii’s can be decided on too. If a way to keep them consistent can be found.


If you believe that the above is not enough, fine but at least you can use this as your first Milestone. It’s this or @San’s Proposal which really is one of the better ones if you must have full customs on.


I have no vested interest in the Mii Fighters either way. But I do wish for every character to be brought out to their fullest and the variable rulesets that the Mii Fighters have to deal with help stall their development in the meta. If the above can be agreed to be a good compromise then push it forward so your meta game can start to climb again.


Hopefully this helped.

 

[19_]

Message to anyone who wants free miis at evo:
Spread this http://smash4u.net/a-primer-on-miis-and-customs/
Reddit link

 

[Epok]

I feel the fact that we feel it's only fair to limit sizees for Mii fighter is quite silly, logistically and competitively.

Logistically, it would be too simple to create a standard set of sizes. Basic information in any rule set can have the information available. Considering the fact we encourage players to have dlc characters and stages that cost money. The fact that people complain over 15 minutes of making miis the night before a tournament, or even less time scanning QR codes to have a legal set up is nonsense.

Competitively, if players are willing to learn the frame data of over 50 characters, plus any new dlc tha comes out, there should be no reason for different sized Miis be any different. Tournament rules should not be responsible for player knowledge. Something shouldn't be banned because you feel it's beneath you to study the matchups.

Sorry if I came across a tad blunt, but some of the reasons for restricting this game have been rustling my jimmies lol.

 

[wizrad]

Here's my proposed Mii ruleset:
- Guest Miis only
- No costume or headgear changes

Notice how I said nothing about moves? That's because the game already decided they can use whatever they want. Now, there is one small part of the rules that I could go either way on, and that relates to counterpicking. Whether a Mii can change moves after choosing a set is debated. The way I see it, there are three options:
- Changing a move counts as a counterpick (the simplest option, rules wise)
- Movesets may not change during a set (not as simple, but as easy to use as the first option)
- Movesets may not change during a tournament (probably the least practical, but the most appeasing to anti-Miis)

Honestly, I don't understand why people are so concerned about move counterpicking. We already have Mario/Doc/Luigi, Dark/Pit, and Marth/Lucina/Roy. And changing one move is much less impactful than picking an entirely different character anyhow. Trust me, no matchups get reversed upon a Mii changing its set within the most common/optimal moves. All of Brawlers sets other than 1122 or 2122 are straight downgrades. The same goes for Gunners other than 3312 or 3311. And Swordfighters other than 1331 or 1332. Miis aren't as scary as everyone seems to think they are. Yes, Brawler is a top tier contender, but he's not game changing, especially not in guest size.

 

[Planty]

Sorry if this has been brought up, but why not have a vote or something of the like to standardize all Miis? As was said, most Mii mains all use the same sets and sizes, so the standardization won't affect them much (i.e. all Mii Brawlers are locked at minimum size 1122). It leaves Mii players happy and leaves non-Mii players at least content that they don't have to learn at ton of matchups and study kill % for all possible size combinations. Standardization will also make it easier to share accurate information about matchups, kill %, combos, and the like.

 

[Wintropy]

I honestly don't think the "unified moveset" proposal is a bad idea. Yes, you can say it's unfair that you should have to compromise and that it still undermines the integrity of the character, but it honestly feels to me like a compromise that can be reached. We have to understand that there's a sizable faction of players and TOs opposed to full Mii customisation, for whatever reasons they may have, and that isn't going to change overnight. I'd wager reaching a compromise that enables some degree of Miis realising their full potential is better than being locked into an inferior moveset forever or outright banned.

 

[wizrad]

I oppose it because it's unnecessary and implausible. It's unnecessary because the game already says it's alright to use whatever moves you want. It's implausible because there will always be people who want another moveset (for instance, I play 2222 Brawler) and voting would have to be done frequently and encompass enough players consistently to be useful.

 

[19_]

I honestly don't think the "unified moveset" proposal is a bad idea. Yes, you can say it's unfair that you should have to compromise and that it still undermines the integrity of the character, but it honestly feels to me like a compromise that can be reached. We have to understand that there's a sizable faction of players and TOs opposed to full Mii customisation, for whatever reasons they may have, and that isn't going to change overnight. I'd wager reaching a compromise that enables some degree of Miis realising their full potential is better than being locked into an inferior moveset forever or outright banned.

This many times over.

The reason why I believe in the MLG rules for miis is because I think it sets the BARE MINIMUM of what miis should be capable of in large tournaments. With only one mii creation/use per set and guest size only, these rules make all arguments about logistics moot. Period.

Epok look man. I get it. Losing sizes would suck but the problem is that sized miis have to be preset on the system and we can't preset every size. Sure maybe a few sizes but which ones?
How many?
The most optimal size?
What if I don't want the most optimal size?
Who decides this anyway the community?
What if my voice is heard, but my size is not added because I am not priority?

You know what mii size does not have this issue?

Guest size: where I can make my set than just play.

 

[Epok]

This many times over.

The reason why I believe in the MLG rules for miis is because I think it sets the BARE MINIMUM of what miis should be capable of in large tournaments. With only one mii creation/use per set and guest size only, these rules make all arguments about logistics moot. Period.

Epok look man. I get it. Losing sizes would suck but the problem is that sized miis have to be preset on the system and we can't preset every size. Sure maybe a few sizes but which ones?
How many?
The most optimal size?
What if I don't want the most optimal size?
Who decides this anyway the community?
What if my voice is heard, but my size is not added because I am not priority?

You know what mii size does not have this issue?

Guest size: where I can make my set than just play.

I understand that it's not a perfect world and every scenario can't be accounted for. However what I do think is important is that as a community we try to come up with efficient ways to help the largest spectrum of players as possible.

My thought is that we can have 5 sizes
Tiny(0/0)
Small(25/25)
Medium (50,50)
Big(75/75)
Large(100/100)

All you would have to do is make those 5 miis. Then the play can go in and make their fighter from one of those preset sizes.
QR codes are a super easy way of distributing the info and creating a standard. Hell, people went out of the way to make all the presets for the Custom Moves Project, so whats 15 minutes? Granted many people will only use the first 3, I think that it is important that the options for larger miis should be available. I think people will be pleasantly surprised if we attempt to at least compromise with players that may feel ignored.

 

[19_]

My thought is that we can have 5 sizes
Tiny(0/0)
Small(25/25)
Medium (50,50)
Big(75/75)
Large(100/100)

All you would have to do is make those 5 miis. Then the play can go in and make their fighter from one of those preset sizes.
QR codes are a super easy way of distributing the info and creating a standard. Hell, people went out of the way to make all the presets for the Custom Moves Project, so whats 15 minutes?

A LOT.

When talking about standardizing rulesets you have understand that we talking about such rules working at INTERNATIONALS. 15 mins x 100+ setups for three characters. Guest miis require 0.

Granted many people will only use the first 3, I think that it is important that the options for larger miis should be available. I think people will be pleasantly surprised if we attempt to at least compromise with players that may feel ignored.

The anti mii players would certainly feel ignored and would refuse to do so. You can't forget there needs to a compromise between these parties. You can not win this argument logistics are a problem.

I honestly don't sizes being worth the trouble when logistics is our best argument right now.

 

[Epok]

A LOT.

When talking about standardizing rulesets you have understand that we talking about such rules working at INTERNATIONALS. 15 mins x 100+ setups for three characters. Guest miis require 0.



The anti mii players would certainly feel ignored and would refuse to do so. You can't forget there needs to a compromise between these parties. You can not win this argument logistics are a problem.

I honestly don't sizes being worth the trouble when logistics is our best argument right now.

...

First of all, many of the situations that we deal with have to involve pre-planing plain and simple. Like I said, quite a few large scale tournaments were able to run customs with out too much trouble logistics wise. It was extra work, but if you're TO you gotta do your job.

You could have players set up there WiiUs at home or ahead of time like most players do before an event starts. Not to mention with a staff or even hand outs with the correct QR codes to implement the standard sizes would not take long. Most people don't want to take the time to figure out a system and just say "screw it" over potentially improving the overall game quality.

The concept of anti mii players has always been a bit off putting. It leads to the notion that players that don't like mii fighters can justifiably claim that they deserve less because of some self proclaimed sense of entitlement. Granted this is a two way street, but one of those doesn't effectively delete 3 characters from the meta. Besides considering how things are right now with mii fighters, the anti mii agenda is definitely not being ignored. If anything it's the other way around. Not to mention a lot of the arguments against miis are not that strong.

It has already shown that miis don't hurt the meta. Will there be a change in the meta? Yes. However, I don't think that should be something we should be afraid of.

 

[Tinkerer]

https://twitter.com/keitarotime/status/695272711078158336

KTAR XVII will have medium sized Miis with any set legal for testing purposes.

 

[/|Sawtooth/|]

https://twitter.com/keitarotime/status/695272711078158336

KTAR XVII will medium sized Miis with any set legal for testing purposes.

And Shots Fired 2 as well! This is the kind of experimentation that I want to see everywhere.

 

[wizrad]

But why do we need experimentation? We already know Miis are fine. This is like experimenting to see if vaccines cause autism (spoiler alert: they don't).

 

[/|Sawtooth/|]

But why do we need experimentation? We already know Miis are fine. This is like experimenting to see if vaccines cause autism (spoiler alert: they don't).

When I say experimentation, I mean firsthand experience. Some TOs want to experience the outcome of allowing an expanded Mii ruleset firsthand to assess whether or not they think it works.

I'm not saying it NEEDS experimentation, but there is still some reluctance among people who simply don't know much about Miis to begin with.

I'm just happy to see things changing for the better.

 

[wizrad]

What we really need is to stop letting ignoramuses make decisions for TOs.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The thing is, TOs are people with will and conviction to run tournaments, knowledge is not required. I mean, just look at Convention Tournaments and how they are 4-people FFAs with 2 mins, set in one single console, to get a winner out of 50.

Ideally, only people with deep knowledge would TO, but this kind of people often lack the drive to put any effort.

Another alternative is to have a source to inform every TO out there, but we have a huge disparity on which ruleset is better. I'd support the idea of a guideline on "stuff that usually works to run a tournament", saying basic stuff like "1v1 is preferred", "you can choose either 2 or 3 stocks", "these stages are fine, and these are not", "Miis can be played with these considerations", and so on.

 

[wizrad]

I'd be fine with that, but Mii Fighters are an "issue" that has nothing to do with opinion, unlike stocks, stages, or even items. All of these have switches that you can use to change the game and tailor it as to whether you like them or not. Miis do not. The only thing that I can think of that is like what we do to Mii is banning a character because you don't want to unlock it.