Where the Mii Fighters stand currently - rulings & Genesis 3

[Yikarur]

They are allowed in tournament mode as created ! (if legal)

 

[wizrad]

Thanks for the explanation. In a sense, you're right. Miis only have customs because they are custom. But they aren't "customs" in the sense that they are the same as the custom moves available to the rest of the cast. In fact, Miis are entirely separate from custom moves and equipment. That's why this is debated.

ALSO: Miis are designed for competitive play as much as any other character in the game is, which means not at all, so that's irrelevant.

 

[aεrgiα]

We've got almost 60 matchups in this game as is. That's plenty of work. Plus, the problem isn't that it's hard to learn all the competitive variation of a custom character, it's that no other character presents those same challenges or gets the same advantages of custom moves. I'd gladly take the time to learn every one of your beloved Mii customs if I could use customs myself. Giving Miis the option of using their best set is an act of charity because Sakurai isn't balancing their 1111 sets to be viable. Freedom to customize movesets needs to be all or nothing. If you learn the MU for my character you only have to learn one set while I have to learn all viable sets. How is that fair? I'm only saying that I'm willing to learn the same number of movesets for your character as you have to for my character. Treating this proposed ruleset-created advantage as a "special ability" comparable to Sheik's needles or whatever is entirely absurd, because learning how to deal with Sheik's tools is fundamentally the same as learning how to deal with any other character's toolkit, while customizable movesets are an entirely unique dynamic that isn't comparable at all to strong character tools. If we're doing locked movesets, they need to be locked for everyone, and if we're doing custom sets they need to be available to everyone. We're stuck in the unfortunate position of having to come up with an arbitrary solution because Sakurai clearly didn't put any thought into Miis and customs as far as competitive play goes, so I'm willing to make concessions in order to allow Miis to be functional competitive characters, but full customization is something they really shouldn't get in a customs-off meta.

ryu only has to learn 4 grounded normals against my character so why do i have to learn 8 grounded normals of his and how they affect the MU, its not fair he gets a strong and weak version of all his tilts and jab, along with true input specials which are just better versions of his normal specials, i think, since no other character has these, ryu should also be limited to only using the heavy version of his normals and should only get his normal input specials, also while we are at it, i propose a ban of all zairs since not everyone has those, which gives those select few characters an advantage in the mu and means when i fight a character with a zair, i have to learn more moves than they do!!!

the fact that "no other character has this" is not a valid argument, only diddy, peach, rob, tink, link, robin, bowser jr. and megaman spawn an item, we banned items, taking your argument "Freedom to customize movesets use items needs to be all or nothing.", and no other character has this advantage of getting items, so applying your logic these characters should not be allowed to use their items? the thing is, this game is full of characters which all have their own "gimmick" which no other character has, and we dont go around banning all these gimmicks just because no one else has them, and the miis gimmick happens to be being able to customize their special moveset even in customs off gameplay.

 

[ぱみゅ]

No wonder we have trouble with the community accepting Miis.
They don't even know the rules about them!
Like, people even ignore the fact that G3 allowed Mii Fighters only when made out of Guest Miis with no further alteration possible, and nobody seemed to catch on the fact a custom Mii was being used and only focused on the fact it was using 1111.

 

[Lvl99Gamer]

No wonder we have trouble with the community accepting Miis.
They don't even know the rules about them!
Like, people even ignore the fact that G3 allowed Mii Fighters only when made out of Guest Miis with no further alteration possible, and nobody seemed to catch on the fact a custom Mii was being used and only focused on the fact it was using 1111.

So you're saying Mii's with different sets were allowed as long as they use the Guest Mii's?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Au contraire mon ami.
It means no further modification is allowed upon creation. No visuals, no specials, no nothing.

 

[Yikarur]

why should anyone care about a custom mii being used. The only reason something like this is stated is too safe as much time as possible. If time is not an issue then it doesn't really matter and no one really cares

 

[Lvl99Gamer]

Au contraire mon ami.
It means no further modification is allowed upon creation. No visuals, no specials, no nothing.

Deux baguette, mon frere. However, that seems like a weird ruling to me. I can sort of understand the sizes and weights affecting different Mii's but at the point they're legal you might as well give them their preferred set (provided it's clear to the opponent before hand which set they're going to use.

why should anyone care about a custom mii being used. The only reason something like this is stated is too safe as much time as possible. If time is not an issue then it doesn't really matter and no one really cares

I don't see the problem, I don't even know which Mii skills are on which number from the top of my head and I can make a custom Mii in a fraction of the time it takes for someone else to set up his custom control scheme. Sadly, I've personally heard people who are against Mii's because they think they're too lame.

 

[Yikarur]

I thought we are talking about costumes..

 

[AEMehr]

No wonder we have trouble with the community accepting Miis.
They don't even know the rules about them!
Like, people even ignore the fact that G3 allowed Mii Fighters only when made out of Guest Miis with no further alteration possible, and nobody seemed to catch on the fact a custom Mii was being used and only focused on the fact it was using 1111.

I really don't understand what this is in reference to or why that should even matter. Would you mind elaborating?

 

[ぱみゅ]

why should anyone care about a custom mii being used. The only reason something like this is stated is too safe as much time as possible. If time is not an issue then it doesn't really matter and no one really cares

If the goal is saving time, ban Miis altogether unless they are already loaded into the console.
Creating a 1111 Mii takes around 30 seconds depending on load times, modifying specials only adds few seconds so it's not too transcendent to allow it; although modifying appearance may take longer and you depend on what has been unlocked or DLC'd at that one console. To transfer only takes few seconds, both players can double-check the Mii, and has everything modified already.
Not allowing to modify Specials or Transferences is not "to save time", it's just an arbitrary, bad rule.

I really don't understand what this is in reference to or why that should even matter. Would you mind elaborating?

I was watching certain stream, they had rules published about Miis, the same ones as G3, so no transference, or modification on specials or visuals could be made.
Still, at the stream nobody seemed to really understand why the guy transferring his 25/0 Mii Gunner with a Geno Costume was against the rules. They simply focused on the 1111 set.
So the Gunner was allowed to have its maximum mobility (that I am not sure if it would get that with a Guest Mii) and even winning a set on stream.
He didn't make a huge splash at the event mind you, but it made me realize how a lot of people not even know the rules around Miis.

 

[AEMehr]

I was watching certain stream, they had rules published about Miis, the same ones as G3, so no transference, or modification on specials or visuals could be made.
Still, at the stream nobody seemed to really understand why the guy transferring his 25/0 Mii Gunner with a Geno Costume was against the rules. They simply focused on the 1111 set.
So the Gunner was allowed to have its maximum mobility (that I am not sure if it would get that with a Guest Mii) and even winning a set on stream.
He didn't make a huge splash at the event mind you, but it made me realize how a lot of people not even know the rules around Miis.

And what makes you so sure it was even 25/0? I know my Miis, and he definitely was 50/50. He even visibly asks Ally if he is fine with him adding the Mii. We allow Gentlemen stage picks, why wouldn't we be allowing people to ask to play as their preferred Mii Fighter be any different in that situation? As you said it takes no longer than actually making a Mii Fighter. So if both players agree to something it should be fine.

 

[ぱみゅ]

And what makes you so sure it was even 25/0? I know my Miis, and he definitely was 50/50. He even visibly asks Ally if he is fine with him adding the Mii. We allow Gentlemen stage picks, why wouldn't we be allowing people to ask to play as their preferred Mii Fighter be any different in that situation? As you said it takes no longer than actually making a Mii Fighter. So if both players agree to something it should be fine.

I for some reason have a lot of problems with people agreeing to break a rule. I mean, it's not the same degree to agree to skip a step and go straight to Smashville, as it is to enter a submenu and then play a character that rules specified was banned to do, but they did that, and on stream. I would go deeper into the issue, but on second thought this might not be something worth rambling about.

Another second thought is that Mii Costumes may be a good way to help people gain interest in them

Also sorry I was wrong about the Mii Size

This whole experience also proved that transferring is not only not an issue, but also far more efficient and interesting than G3's rulings.

 

[AEMehr]

I for some reason have a lot of problems with people agreeing to break a rule. I mean, it's not the same degree to agree to skip a step and go straight to Smashville, as it is to enter a submenu and then play a character that rules specified was banned to do, but they did that, and on stream. I would go deeper into the issue, but on second thought this might not be something worth rambling about.

Mii's appearance and costume/hat choice are purely cosmetic. The only reason they would logically be banned is for easier access and to prevent people from not using the 50/50 format. It's literally as arbitrary as banning any Little Mac costume that isn't wireframe so the players can distinctly hear when his KO Meter is charged up or something dumb like that. If you and another person agree to take a match on Gamer or something, despite it being against the rules, then you can do it. That's generally a ruleset staple I've seen at all tournaments I've gone to / seen. Use of your own Mii Fighter should definitely follow a similar ruleset. Especially if it doesn't break of the actual gameplay related rules.

Another second thought is that Mii Costumes may be a good way to help people gain interest in them

I play Miis to play as certain characters I'm personally fond of. I know this may come off as a complaint, but it doesn't necessarily feel the same for me to play as a Guest Mii character than it does to play as Nikki, Geno, or any of the other Mii Fighters I have personally created. It lacks the charm that makes the character feel special. Now that's kind of a casual outlook but I play these characters all the time and would love to use them competitively, and the only enjoyable way for me to play these characters is to play them as the characters I want to play as (if that makes any sense).

Also sorry I was wrong about the Mii Size

No biggie, you didn't know. It's any consolation people think I'm using a Small Mii all the time for some reason. Apparently the fact that smaller is better gives off a mindset that 50/50 is unplayable.

This whole experience also proved that transferring is not only not an issue, but also far more efficient and interesting than G3's rulings.

Indeed. I mean it's like player colors but way more special. Chibo uses Waluigi, Twerk uses himself, ROM uses Geno, and I'm a Nikki fan. They may play the same but we all have our own unique attachment to our character.

 

[Lvl99Gamer]

Mii's appearance and costume/hat choice are purely cosmetic. The only reason they would logically be banned is for easier access and to prevent people from not using the 50/50 format. It's literally as arbitrary as banning any Little Mac costume that isn't wireframe so the players can distinctly hear when his KO Meter is charged up or something dumb like that. If you and another person agree to take a match on Gamer or something, despite it being against the rules, then you can do it. That's generally a ruleset staple I've seen at all tournaments I've gone to / seen. Use of your own Mii Fighter should definitely follow a similar ruleset. Especially if it doesn't break of the actual gameplay related rules.
I play Miis to play as certain characters I'm personally fond of. I know this may come off as a complaint, but it doesn't necessarily feel the same for me to play as a Guest Mii character than it does to play as Nikki, Geno, or any of the other Mii Fighters I have personally created. It lacks the charm that makes the character feel special. Now that's kind of a casual outlook but I play these characters all the time and would love to use them competitively, and the only enjoyable way for me to play these characters is to play them as the characters I want to play as (if that makes any sense).

No biggie, you didn't know. It's any consolation people think I'm using a Small Mii all the time for some reason. Apparently the fact that smaller is better gives off a mindset that 50/50 is unplayable.

Indeed. I mean it's like player colors but way more special. Chibo uses Waluigi, Twerk uses himself, ROM uses Geno, and I'm a Nikki fan. They may play the same but we all have our own unique attachment to our character.

I actually made my own unique character that I'm fond of but I think it must extra sad when the WiiU you play on doesn't have the costume on it you're used to. For instance, you only play Proto-man Gunner or whatever and you're forced to use a basic Mii because they simply don't have your outfit, I don't know if that would affect your performance or anything but it may be uncomfortable?

 

[AEMehr]

I actually made my own unique character that I'm fond of but I think it must extra sad when the WiiU you play on doesn't have the costume on it you're used to. For instance, you only play Proto-man Gunner or whatever and you're forced to use a basic Mii because they simply don't have your outfit, I don't know if that would affect your performance or anything but it may be uncomfortable?

It really shouldn't hinder your performance, but iunno. It takes a lot of the fun of it all from me, and if I'm not having fun playing the game I don't personally feel up to it.

 

[Lvl99Gamer]

It really shouldn't hinder your performance, but iunno. It takes a lot of the fun of it all from me, and if I'm not having fun playing the game I don't personally feel up to it.

Well that's also sorta what I mean. How do you deal with playing on different WiiU's who don't have your costumes available? I mean, it doesn't matter if you only use your own WiiU at home and play with friends there but if you join tourney's, local or otherwise or even at a friend's house you're probably out of luck and you can't fully enjoy your character.

On a side note, I'm kinda hoping for a giant bundle after the last content patch with every costume in it or something like that.

 

[AEMehr]

Well that's also sorta what I mean. How do you deal with playing on different WiiU's who don't have your costumes available? I mean, it doesn't matter if you only use your own WiiU at home and play with friends there but if you join tourney's, local or otherwise or even at a friend's house you're probably out of luck and you can't fully enjoy your character.

On a side note, I'm kinda hoping for a giant bundle after the last content patch with every costume in it or something like that.

Gotta shell out that 75 cents $$$$$

 

[CnSyren]

Guest Mii's create little variation so people can practice against them and not have to worry about dropping combos. 1111 is also good for the little variation and if Mii's get to get any special they want isn't that a little unfair to the rest of the cast and ESPECIALLY Palutena.

 

[Lvl99Gamer]

Guest Mii's create little variation so people can practice against them and not have to worry about dropping combos. 1111 is also good for the little variation and if Mii's get to get any special they want isn't that a little unfair to the rest of the cast and ESPECIALLY Palutena.[/QUO

I'm fine with keeping Variation in check in order for Mii's to get accepted (Not the moves but I can imagine the wildly varying sizes to be annoying for combo's) but there's no reason to keep it at 50/50 size and 1111. If you're gonna be anal about it you may as well give them the most used set as "standard" (25/0 3312 for gunner I think, etc.) as that's just as arbitrary as 1111 except more viable.

Also, I feel for Palutena. I really do and I'm first in line for supporting palu, but letting HER use her custom moves would be even harder to legalize.

 

[Yikarur]

not sure If I have posted it here already but Beast 6 is soon and it will be europes biggest smash 4 tournament so far
http://beast-series.com/rules/smash4/

Each setup will have 1122 Mii Brawlers / 2331 Swordsmen / 3322 Gunners available for use
(Using Default A-F standard size Miis provided on console).

it's not "free mii" but it's at least something. I don't agree with fix movesets (because this is arbirary) but at least I can play my second main there

 

[wizrad]

Guest Mii's create little variation so people can practice against them and not have to worry about dropping combos. 1111 is also good for the little variation and if Mii's get to get any special they want isn't that a little unfair to the rest of the cast and ESPECIALLY Palutena.

Sorry, but, "I'm too lazy to learn" is not an argument most of us are going to entertain. Are guest sizes easier on TOs? Yes. That is an argument. Would standardization also be easier? Yes, but it is implausible to do in a fair way.

This isn't about Palutena or the rest of the cast. This is about Miis. We aren't requesting special treatment. We're requesting you stop treating us specially.

 

[aεrgiα]

Guest Mii's create little variation so people can practice against them and not have to worry about dropping combos. 1111 is also good for the little variation and if Mii's get to get any special they want isn't that a little unfair to the rest of the cast and ESPECIALLY Palutena.

why is it unfair to the rest of the cast? its unfair to the miis, you are barring them from their own gimmick whilst everyone else gets to keep theirs...(peaches float, diddys banana, shulks monados, ryus weak and strong inputs along with secial inputs etc.)

and please dont compare palutena to the miis, while i would have no problem allowing palutena to have access to her customs personally, her and the miis are a completely different matter. for palutena to have access to her custom moves, you would have to make an exception for her and, in the ruleset, have an extra rule that ALLOWS her to use her custom. On the other hand, for miis to not have access to their specials you have to make an extra rule that PROHIBITS them from using all their specials. and in that sense palutena(and any other character) are completely different from the miis since, without an additional rule which exclusively bans mii specials, miis are allowed to use their special moves according to the ruleset. i dont see how leaving out an extra rule specifically banning miis special moves is unfair to the rest of the cast, rather isnt adding an extra rule to limit a character unfair to that character instead?

 

[nebulark]

I don't really get this unfair argument. In my opinion we should play including any competetive reasonable thing the game has to offer. I can understand arguments about character diversity and logistics, but the Mii issue is neither. There is absolutely no logistical problem with guest Miis and it even improves the character diversity.

The game has to be fair to the players and not the characters. Players can just switch the sides. If some character gets an advantage you can just switch to that character. If you think that it's unfair that sheik is a better charakter than zelda, then just play sheik. If you don't then it's probably not unfair enough to even be an argument. Or you are an character loyalist and shouldn't try to ban things so your character is better in comparison.

For me the unfair argument would only count when it makes a character significantly better than best character. Otherwise you can mitigate the so-called "unfair advantage" by playing a better character than theirs, which is itself an "unfair advantage". When you play to win you pick the best character, so there is no "unfair advantage". To my knowledge Sheik is still better than any possible loadout of the Miis.

 

[wizrad]

I don't really get this unfair argument. In my opinion we should play including any competetive reasonable thing the game has to offer. I can understand arguments about character diversity and logistics, but the Mii issue is neither. There is absolutely no logistical problem with guest Miis and it even improves the character diversity.

The game has to be fair to the players and not the characters. Players can just switch the sides. If some character gets an advantage you can just switch to that character. If you think that it's unfair that sheik is a better charakter than zelda, then just play sheik. If you don't then it's probably not unfair enough to even be an argument. Or you are an character loyalist and shouldn't try to ban things so your character is better in comparison.

For me the unfair argument would only count when it makes a character significantly better than best character. Otherwise you can mitigate the so-called "unfair advantage" by playing a better character than theirs, which is itself an "unfair advantage". When you play to win you pick the best character, so there is no "unfair advantage". To my knowledge Sheik is still better than any possible loadout of the Miis.

This post is so right. The game is not fair. Sheik is the best. This is how competitive games work. They aren't supposed to be "fair". They're supposed to be a battleground. If I pick a Mii and you feel that that's unfair, you're really just upset that I'm better at using the character selector screen than you.

 

[19_]

Guest Mii's create little variation so people can practice against them and not have to worry about dropping combos. 1111 is also good for the little variation and if Mii's get to get any special they want isn't that a little unfair to the rest of the cast and ESPECIALLY Palutena.

1.
I agree with you on sizes but for mostly different reasons, more so logistically. Guest miis need no setup but other sizes need to be setup outside the game. This is a problem because you are not going to exit the game just mii creation during tournament.

While I see the appeal in only a few "Standard sizes" mii players are going to want them changed many times because of how many there are. And besides, Guest miis already set a standard since they are there by default making less hassel for TOs.

Yea I get there are no default sizes for miis but if that's the case then figure out how to get EVERY SIZE legal at an international.

2.
If we are talking fairness in terms of moves, customs off and soon to be have more moves than all the other characters in the game


BUT

at the select screen they do have better advantage I agree. ,, and would probably be amazing as counterpick characters at least on paper. Especially if you consider switching moves between games to be a possibility.

Thankfully the MLG rules for miis forbid this. You can ONLY make/use 1 mii per set so no back and forth moveset shenanigans (good for logistics too!).

This still makes them strong counterpick characters on paper regardless. They could surgically use a certain moveset to win against certain character.
But in practice??? I honestly don't see it being worse then a pocket counterpicking FD.

I can see where your coming from. I just would like to see a better compromise than just apex rules. The MLG rules don't sound that bad to me.

still seems like a weird case thought I admit, honestly should have its own thread.

 

[CnSyren]

All I want from Mii's is one set size and one set special, I was just saying why those specific rules are in place. I just want some standardization for Miis.

 

[wizrad]

Miis are non-standard characters. One set per set I might agree with, to prevent move-counterpicking, but that's about it. Any more restriction on moves is unwarranted and unnecessary.

 

[19_]

All I want from Mii's is one set size and one set special, I was just saying why those specific rules are in place. I just want some standardization for Miis.

Problem is though everyone is going to have there own preference. I mean coney's idea only one set decided by the players kinda works but only for locals due to the size of these tournaments. The bigger the tournament the more mii players you will leave out in the open if you only have one set. Not to mention the consensus might change as the the miis meta shifts anyway. There will always be a reason to change that 1 set.

I do want to find a better standard for miis but I can't see there moves staying stuck to one set indefinitely.
Having all there moves, with one moveset per set, kinda makes things less confusing actually. At least to me anyway.

 

[Yikarur]

Germanys has allowed Mii's with full movesets. And changing moveset is the same as changing the character. There is no reason to be locked to a set tbh. That would just again be an unwarranted restriction.

 

[19_]

Germanys has allowed Mii's with full movesets. And changing moveset is the same as changing the character. There is no reason to be locked to a set tbh. That would just again be an unwarranted restriction.

While I suppose that is nice I'd rather have a compromise between people in this country. One that at least lets people play the character.

It's a restriction yes but it is still better than one set overall.

 

[Masonomace]

For local tournaments around Missouri, I support the decision to allow Miis with any size & any special set, but throughout tournaments in Missouri I still see Guest Size Mii with 1111. While I am against this, the least I would go beyond that is supporting Guest Size with any special set. The exception to that is that you can only play with the one special set for that Mii Fighter you created (so if I were to play MSF, then I'd make a Guest Mii with 1322 & use only that for the entire tournament). Other fellow MSF players can make their own set & use that for the remainder of the tournament as well.

Not allowing Mii Fighters is just painful & sad at this point. But I remember back when a good amount of my friends wanted to go together out somewhere for a smash 4 tournament & they asked if they would allow Mii Fighters with any special set & the TOs said "No we only allow 1111". It went from 5-10 people that planned on carpooling & going, to suddenly all 5-10 people deciding not to go because their mate played Mii Brawler usually with 1122. So it was 5-10 people with at least 5 or more setups to losing all those players & the TOs not getting the access to those 5+ setups they could of needed. It's a shame honestly.

 

[Yikarur]

While I suppose that is nice I'd rather have a compromise between people in this country. One that at least lets people play the character.

It's a restriction yes but it is still better than one set overall.

yeah it's better but it's still not how it should be.
So many different ruels that people are triying out..

Guest 1111 -> garbage for obvious reason
Guest i.e 2122 (Brawler) -> still garbage because it's exactly the same as the first, but at least you can play the character.
Guest Free move choice, 1 per set -> would probably satisfy most Mii players
Guest Free move choice, always -> this is what it should be objectively speaking.

The TO's should finally stop being stupid. Free Mii's have to become the standard finally.

 

[wizrad]

I don't understand why people won't even try it. Are they scared their knee jerk cries of "jank" and "unfair" will be proven wrong? MLG and most of Europe already proved you wrong.

 

[19_]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

pls no

 

[Dinoman96]

Well, there's that. No way this community is ever going to allow customs again, and it looks like the Mii Fighters are being dragged down with them.

Looks like Mii mains are gonna join the same club with Palutena players.

 

[19_]

Someone mention the MLG rules to Mr. wizard please @ChiboSempai LiteralGrill

 

[Yikarur]

Yes please. I'm really mad right now...
I thought EVO is about fighting game principles, banning characters that are not even close to broken is completely against it.

There meta game will never evolve outside of europe if thats continuing..

 

[wizrad]

We need to do something. Today.

 

[LiteralGrill]

As much as it sucks, Mr. Wizard is RIGHT. If you open the customization screen there is an argument to be made that it should be ALL customs are one. I wrote about this even. I think the poll SHOULD have more ways to decide things as we're not being super logical about Miigality but if he doesn't allow it... He's got a right to do so.