Where the Mii Fighters stand currently - rulings & Genesis 3

[ArikadoSD]

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people get pissed when we 'trot out the same arguments' and say this is why we 'deserve' to be mistreated.

but they won't take the time to read the answers we've given to 'the same questions' posed over and over.

Insert wall of text here about how modifiable move-sets are the Miis' special design feature, even Customs Off allows them to do this. It's like how Rosalina has a Puppet as her special feature, Mac has armored smashes as his special feature, etc. etc. This is what the Miis are supposed to do. Their very purpose is a character the user can make modest tweaks to in order to suit their exact preferences! Taking that away is taking away the very point of the Miis, just as forcing someone to jettison Luma would be gutting the point of Rosalina!

Now you know.

if you really wanna bring up the "its supposed to be that way" argument then smash was never supposed to go big anyway and customs aren't supposed to be balanced.

one big thing about your examples is that luma and ko punch are already features that happen while playing in-game, so unless mii can literally change their moves mid-game then there isn't a comparison between the two lol.

to me what the whole thing looks like is miis were just put in as fan service to people who don't like any character and wanna play as themselves cuz why not it looks fun... they just seem to cater to that one guy in a free for all that doesn't like any character. that's what, to me, miis are supposed to do, as you put it.

 

[Wintropy]

What I don't get, and it's something that I have yet to have adequately explained to me, is why shouldn't Mii Fighters have their full potential enabled? The option is there, and it requires nothing to enable it, so why don't we?

Well, the way I see it, we have to justify why we do something rather than why we don't do something. It's easier to start with a conservative ruleset and then go through the process of disseminating what will and will not be enabled. So why don't we enable:

- Timed matches instead of stock matches? Timed matches are based on which opponent gets the most kills first and is susceptible to evasion of battle to ensure no side is at a disadvantage and, in matches with more than two players, "sniping" or "kill-snatching" for points. It is not a good indication of skill and so we don't use it.

- More than two players per match? More than two players creates disparity between opponents, encourages stalling or evasion of battle, is prone to unpredictable variables that can interrupt the pace of the fight, does not indicate a fair fight between two players to determine who is of greater skill, and again, is susceptible to "sniping" or "kill-snatching" to win. It is not a good indication of skill and so we don't use it.

- Items? It introduces an unpredictable and uncontrollable random element to the game and offers an external advantage or disadvantage not necessarily based on the player's individual skill or control of their character. It is not a good indication of skill and so we don't use it.

- Every stage? See above, in addition to the fact that it can interfere with the match based on topography and, in some cases, randomly-generated hazards or entities. It is not a good indication of skill and so we don't use it.

In other words, we don't enable these things because they promote degenerate play, interfere with the pace of the match, introduce an unpredictable "RNG" element to the game and do not indicate which of the two players is more skilled and has better control over their character and the stage they're playing on. They imbalance the game in a way that can't be controlled or organised.

So why don't we enable Miis to use every option they have? It's not like it's offering them an unfair advantage, in that they don't have access to more moves at the same time than anybody else does: they have access to the same amount of special moves that everybody else does, exactly four at a time. It doesn't even offer them an advantage in terms of being able to change their sets or switch out different moves between games (this is a separate issue and I will deal with it in due time), since it is effectively no different to choosing a different character to counterpick your opponent's choice of character. You don't even have to switch on a different option to use different moves: it's enabled by default. By that very definition, I'd say you'd have to go out of your way to not have Mii Fighters use their own moves. Effectively and in practice, there is no difference whatsoever between Miis having different moves than there is to being able to shift the token on the CSS from Mario to Dr Mario.

Beyond that, there's absolutely no reason to suggest Mii Fighters are degenerate or having full access to their moves is of detriment to the quality of competition, or that there's any kind of logistical difficulty in creating sets for them prior to a match.

I've been to tournaments where Miis can use whatever moves they want (our scene has used this rule since its inception) and it's never been an issue, either in bracket or in friendlies. In my experience, people don't rush to pick up Mii Brawler with Helicopter Kick and hope it's an easy ticket to victory, because...well, because it isn't. It's a single strategy that's easy to exploit when you have experience with it, same with every possible move or combinations of moves the Miis can use. We have one Mii Brawler main in our locals, in addition to a few people that have expressed interest in having pocket Miis because they enjoy the character and it appeals to their playstyle - myself among them. So the notion that Miis are somehow "broken" or (gods have mercy on us) "jank" doesn't stack up, especially if the crux of that sentiment stems from one very situational kill move (Helicopter Kick) that is, to paraphrase what I've recently heard somebody describe it as, "an inferior version of ZSS's Boost Kick". So that can't be the reason.

Logistics? Well, in my experience, it takes at most about two minutes to create a guest Mii of the default size, pick your moves and return to the CSS. It's the same amount of time as it takes to exit the CSS, create a new tag, set your controls and return. I highly doubt most Mii players will demand they play their own special snowflake Mii if generic guest Mii is an option: except for a few people who do play the character because of self-inset value, most competitive Mii players will be playing Mii because they enjoy the character's playstyle. If you do have people that wish to exercise their right to play themselves or Jackie Chan or Superman in Smash, then tell them the impetus is on them to upload the set before the tournament begins: either bring a 3DS with the Mii pre-installed and upload it from that, or use the tournament's in-house Wii U to create their Mii, and make sure that, either way, it is done before the official start of the competition. If they don't comply with the rules, then they don't get to play Jackie Chan and they can use the guest Mii Brawler. Not the end of the world. If they really want to play Mii, they'll comply. It's a grotesque fallacy to say that it takes "too much effort" or "wastes time" to upload sets or create Miis when the responsibility has been and should always be on the Mii player to do so in a manner that doesn't interfere with the scheduled competition. So logistically, there's no real issue either.

The other response often heard is that people don't want to have to learn the Mii Brawler / Swordfighter / Gunner matchup, and that is introduces an unnecessary degree of complexity to the game. I don't think that's a fair response, and I don't think people should be encouraged to promote their own agenda when it is based on, in all due sincerity, laziness. Nobody (that I'm aware of or want to be aware of) said Mewtwo should be banned because they don't want to learn the matchup, or Lucas or Roy or Ryu or Cloud or any future DLC characters. People either got the characters or found somebody who had them and they practiced until they had an understanding of how to play the matchup. The only reason I can think of why Miis may be considered an outlier in this case is due to the fact that they're not available for play in For Glory, which may make it more difficult for people to routinely practice with other Mii Fighter players. This is an undeniable issue and I sympathise with it. Yet I will by saying, quite bluntly if I may, that it's not a sufficient excuse to effectively ban three characters: Mii players get by even without being able to practice their main character on For Glory, and if needs be, you can go to Tournament mode and engage in practice battles there in tournaments where Miis have been enabled for free play. Refusal to educate oneself should never be used as a reason to justify the creation of policy.

Now what I'd consider to be a more relevant issue is the question of whether or not:

- Mii Fighters should be able to switch between pre-installed sets between matches, during the counterpick phase

- Mii Fighters should be able to use every size, or if they should have to use only the default size or choose from a pre-defined set of stock sizes

These questions can't be answered objectively, in my opinion, and it's something that Mii players may well have to compromise on with their TO. Either way, I don't think very many Mii players would be terribly upset if they weren't able to switch between sets in the counterpick phase or if they were made to use the default size ("guest") Mii. Ideally I think Miis should have full access to sets and sizes (even if they're just pre-defined sizes), and to be honest, I don't think it's even that much of an issue in terms of logistics: nine out of ten competitive Mii players will probably want to go for the smallest and thinnest Mii Fighter, since that's considered the best option universally for competition. If it's a matter of compromises needing to be made, then I think it's important a dialogue is opened up between Mii players and TOs who want to get a better idea of what Mii players expect and what is feasible in a tournament setting.

Either way, I think that's the most important thing we need to do right now: open a dialogue. Go to TOs and talk to them about enabling Miis, educate them on how they work and the benefits they can offer, help them establish the rules and volunteer to organise setups and installations if needs be. The best way to create change is to educate and inform people, especially people with the ability to make that change a reality. The first step is talking, and if we can get people to engage with us and share ideas, then we're doing something very good for the cause and the community.

 

[wizrad]

"Miis take too long."

No. Look at any tournament running Miis. Perfectly fine. You're wrong.

"My character doesn't get special treatment."

Yes, it does. Sheik gets needles. Diddy gets bananas. In fact, restricting Miis is special treatment. No other character has special out-of-game rules on their legality. So, let's stop that special treatment.

 

[Wintropy]

"My character doesn't get special treatment."

Yes, it does. Sheik gets needles. Diddy gets bananas. In fact, restricting Miis is special treatment. No other character has special out-of-game rules on their legality. So, let's stop that special treatment.

This one especially confuses me, because I can't see it as being any different in effect to switching characters. If Miis had more special moves than anybody else active at the same time, I'd be a bit more hesitant to say it's kosher, but they don't. They have four specials on at a time, save as everybody else.

This is even less of an issue if you restrict Miis to one set per tourney (i.e. MLG rules). Most people will run the same set anyway because it's the most optimal in a utilitarian sense; at most you'd just have people switching to reflector moves for projectile-heavy matchups and then back to their default set. Size is another issue, but I don't think people would be terribly upset if they had to use generic default height / weight Mii. It isn't ideal, and it shouldn't be a concern (tiny Miis really won't make that much of an impact on the meta), but it's a compromise I think people have displayed a willingness to accept.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

If Miis take too long, I kindly take and show them around our six convenient Guest Miis which requires no outside software to access and can be made playable in-game.

But if time is an argument...why is coaching not only banned many times, but not being properly followed? Seriously, I see tournaments with coaching rules and regulations in place and people get away with that crap for minutes to no end and wonder why a tournament is finishing at 1am. Then when bad tournaments get done late and later find people post on Facebook how it could have been better with two stocks and not three, or how Miis slowed down the tournament, no. Just no.

People need to stop making excuses over things that take barely any time to do. If you haven't unlocked Smashville and wonder why your setup isn't getting waived for tourney legal play, that's on you for not taking that time to crank out required unlockables. Or if you don't have the required three Miis made for Swordfighter, Brawler, and Gunner with default sizes (which for our tourneys anyway can have their special moves adjusted), then its not the problem of the TO you couldn't bother to fully follow our tournament rules, but on you.

 

[T0MMY]

If big tournaments have a standard, small ones should too to keep everything even regardless of event size.

That's fallacy, straight up. Rules are not based on "big tournaments". If that were the case then we'd have an argument for Items, jank stages, and 10 majority-vote Custom sets; and not one of those rules, ALL of them.
Locals and majors are two different fields, many times the majors will make major errors (pun intended) and locals will have flimsy rulings. Recognizing these differences and addressing issues with rulings based on logical consequence of principles we set forth is exactly where the Smash Community must head to progress, the alternative has historically been shown to be both ineffective and plagued with strife.

I think you're going nowhere like that T0MMY. At your own locals you can do whatever you want, but in the grand scheme of things a compromise WILL have to be made.

I disagree, what I have done has already made a deep impact on not only Mii rulings but just how rulings are considered in general.
Why do you think there's now a platform based on logical arguments? The stronger argument will always replace a weaker one, logically. Those who deny demonstrable logical consequences will appear foolish and their words will not last long.

Telling people to "go out and get a job" so they can buy extra hardware for only one character is at best extremely borderline to competitive theory, at worst completely ridiculous.

Well, it may be that you have that subjective perspective regarding socialist opinion, but just saying "ridiculous" doesn't convince me - If someone demands that the TO must buy them a 3DS then I am very certain I am not the only TO who is going to point them to a job listing where they can get their own money to buy their own stuff; and I'm not going to buy them a car to get to the tournament either.
Give these socialists an inch, they'll take a mile.

I think as of right now, you've convinced nobody expect those who already agreed with you in the first place. You don't want a compromise, you want people to copy-paste your opinion, and that is a problem.

Your guess is completely wrong.
Scour the posts and you will see people responding saying they thought otherwise. Heck, even I was pro-ban regarding Mii at first, if anything convincing myself of a proper ruling based on logic is way more of a boon then convincing anyone else.

That feeling when you know you've done something right.

Although it is so obvious it need not be pointed out, I think I'll still simply say that just because you create this image of what you want others to think I do (copy-paste my opinion), that does NOT accurately reflect reality. If you really believe this to be the case and want to publicly defend your position then please remember that any and all claims must be verified with actual proof to be taken seriously. Otherwise you may get that common response "cool story, bro".

Why do Mii Brawler mains always have to make wall of texts that only repeat the same arguments that have been around for 6 months ?

A strong logical foundation will always stand the test of time while the weak arguments fall by the wayside.
What you may see as a wall of text constantly repeated may be seen by the more logically-inclined to be a strong and withstanding argument.
Weak arguments tend to fracture into splintered fallacies (called red herrings), each of these splinters are a "loose end" that should be tied up. One answer which address a thousand weak arguments is not a problem, it is a great solution.
(this response should tie up the red herring ironically bringing into question the number of questions that must be answered).

I mean heck, I don't have anything against 2122 Guest Mii Brawler (though I don't understand why anyone would want to play a watered down version of ZSS) but if you can't come up with any new arguments or backup data in 6 months then you deserve your goddamn 1111.

It's unreasonable to demand that any "new" arguments must be presented when 1) it's not our job to disprove a claim, the burden of proof is on those making the claim (that 1111 should be a standard), and 2) A new answer is not needed when a previous proof has been established (1+1=2 is an old answer, obviously we don't need to come up with a "new" answer just because it's old).

Someone answer me this: literally every character in the roster is using the 1111 set. Why should Miis be treated differently?

This is assuming there is a ruling that demands all characters must use a 1111 moveset. There is no pre-established ruling that states this. The standard is that "Custom Fighter" is, by default, set to "Off". That is all. Mii fighters, while still observing this game setting "Off" can still access their special move pool when creating a Mii.
By design and intent and within the rulings the Mii are allowed to be created however one desires.

Therefore no ruling must be made regarding Mii unless one reasons it's competitively more valuable to restrict/ban them. At this point in time no sound reasoning has been demonstrated that it is more valuable to restrict/ban the Mii fighters. In fact, when attempting to prove that it usually demonstrates just the opposite - Mii fighters add value to both the competitive aspects (the meta will develop, there's no "jank", and it fits within the rulings) as well as the community aspects (more players will come and play with their character instead of not coming to an event because their character is banned).

TL;DR - any claims to ban/restrict must be born of sound reasoning before any analysis for warrant is given.

 

[Deleted member]

I might have a talk with my locals about Miis. Question, though. What size/weight do I use?

 

[SonicvMario]

I might have a talk with my locals about Miis. Question, though. What size/weight do I use?

If you're trying to convince them to just allow miis I'd say go with the guest miis for the sake of simplicity and when they get used to the idea you could suggest allowing uploads or making miis before the tournament to use other sizes.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Why do you think there's now a platform based on logical arguments? The stronger argument will always replace a weaker one, logically. Those who deny demonstrable logical consequences will appear foolish and their words will not last long.

Ugh, not this again.

You are not going to be convincing a single person if you keep trying to use these "logic" and "competitive principles" arguments. You cannot expect these pointless arguments to actually make any progress when the people you are arguing with are themselves illogical, and so immune to these arguments. You can keep wasting your time pointing out all of the fallacies in the opposing arguments and using everything you learned in your Introduction to Logic course you took last semester, but you know what that will accomplish? Nothing.

YOU WILL NEED TO COMPROMISE AT SOME POINT.

 

[AEMehr]

Someone answer me this: literally every character in the roster is using the 1111 set. Why should Miis be treated differently?

because the character is literally designed to use the special move you want it to use

What happens when you make a Mii Fighter? You're immediately given the option to change special moves. The specials themselves are arbitrarily ordered too. 1111 is not a "default" set for Mii Fighters, it doesn't matter if Brawler's Neutral Special 1 was Shotput or Ultimate Uppercut, it's arbitrarily ordered.

It is also, like Pegasus Knight said, a character feature. I mean Ryu is designed to do Street Fighter inputs and light and medium versions of his normals. He has 8 Specials available at all times. It's how they're designed and balanced for play.

if you really wanna bring up the "its supposed to be that way" argument then smash was never supposed to go big anyway and customs aren't supposed to be balanced.

Customs have been changed in balance patches though???

one big thing about your examples is that luma and ko punch are already features that happen while playing in-game, so unless mii can literally change their moves mid-game then there isn't a comparison between the two lol.

It alters gameplay, how does that not relate?

to me what the whole thing looks like is miis were just put in as fan service to people who don't like any character and wanna play as themselves cuz why not it looks fun... they just seem to cater to that one guy in a free for all that doesn't like any character. that's what, to me, miis are supposed to do, as you put it.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

So I'm finally picking a horse in this race and I'm attempting to learn Mii Gunner. I'm not sure if I'm going to get anywhere with her, or drop her because KOing seems to be a huge pain (I like my big fatties like Dedede), but...there it is. Why Gunner? Because default size doesn't feel crippled in terms of mobility, she has interesting movement options thanks to fair, and she can at least trap certain defensive options well...plus the 1111 set feels good enough to me. Yeah.

The thing is the locals around here use 1111 guest Miis, and while I've advocated in favor of Mii legality whenever the subject has come up most players are either uninterested or actively arguing against it. Mii Gunner can at least do things when restricted to "default" and at least feels somewhat-viable, so I'll work on her to see if I feel comfortable using her in a tourney.

 

[Djmarcus44]

So I'm finally picking a horse in this race and I'm attempting to learn Mii Gunner. I'm not sure if I'm going to get anywhere with her, or drop her because KOing seems to be a huge pain (I like my big fatties like Dedede), but...there it is. Why Gunner? Because default size doesn't feel crippled in terms of mobility, she has interesting movement options thanks to fair, and she can at least trap certain defensive options well...plus the 1111 set feels good enough to me. Yeah.

The thing is the locals around here use 1111 guest Miis, and while I've advocated in favor of Mii legality whenever the subject has come up most players are either uninterested or actively arguing against it. Mii Gunner can at least do things when restricted to "default" and at least feels somewhat-viable, so I'll work on her to see if I feel comfortable using her in a tourney.

The Mii Gunner boards have some useful threads and discoveries that will help. There are some kill setups for 1111 guest size gunner mentioned in the Mii Gunner true combo and follow up thread. As you said, guest size Gunner has a variety of good movement options that gives the character decent mobility.

I'm in a similar situation with my local tournament scene. Some of the players there are somewhat annoyed when I use guest size 1111 gunner, so I don't like my chances of persuading them to allow any other movesets for the Miis. In addition, there aren't any players that main other movesets for the miis in my area. My position on the moveset of Miis is to allow all of the movesets, but I don't want to advocate for a change that only creates tension while helping no one.

 

[T0MMY]

So I'm finally picking a horse in this race and I'm attempting to learn Mii Gunner.

I think Mii Gunner is one of the worst characters in the game for competition, even with every move available.
That's the one Mii I do not play (I even picked Swordfighter up a little more recently).
So I wish you the best of luck!

Ugh, not this again.

You are not going to be convincing a single person if you keep trying to use these "logic" and "competitive principles" arguments.

You're late to the party. I've already convinced a lot of people.
See, people are reasonable. They are logical. The only issue is that we are taught how to obey and be herd mentality animals in society. But we cannot completely abandon what is our nature, ever notice how there is no other option than "what is your reason?" when it comes to ANY motive? Because there cannot possibly be a non-reason that motivates people to do something. It's impossible to not have a cause to an effect. This is the law of the cosmos.
My appeal is simple and effective.

You can keep wasting your time pointing out all of the fallacies in the opposing arguments and using everything you learned in your Introduction to Logic course you took last semester, but you know what that will accomplish? Nothing.

You know what else I do that is both simple and effective?
Coming up with solutions instead of complaints.

So, what have you accomplished?

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I think Mii Gunner is one of the worst characters in the game for competition, even with every move available.
That's the one Mii I do not play (I even picked Swordfighter up a little more recently).
So I wish you the best of luck!

Well, I already play Dedede, who many people consider bottom 5. I apparently like making life difficult for myself.

 

[wizrad]

Ugh, not this again.

You are not going to be convincing a single person if you keep trying to use these "logic" and "competitive principles" arguments. You cannot expect these pointless arguments to actually make any progress when the people you are arguing with are themselves illogical, and so immune to these arguments. You can keep wasting your time pointing out all of the fallacies in the opposing arguments and using everything you learned in your Introduction to Logic course you took last semester, but you know what that will accomplish? Nothing.

YOU WILL NEED TO COMPROMISE AT SOME POINT.

Will he have to? Probably. Should he? No. Not at all. He's right. It's just that these logically-immune people exist. That's wrong. And that's why his conviction is so strong. I don't entirely agree with him, but I respect what he's doing and how he goes about it.

 

[Djmarcus44]

I think Mii Gunner is one of the worst characters in the game for competition, even with every move available.
That's the one Mii I do not play (I even picked Swordfighter up a little more recently).
So I wish you the best of luck!

Why do you think that Mii Gunner is that bad? Although this may be off topic, I personally disagree with your opinion, and I am presenting my reasons. Mii Gunner has one of the best neutral games in all of Smash 4 (with 1111 and with 3312, Gunner's best moveset). This is due to the excellent projectiles Mii Gunner has, and the movement options that Gunner gets when using them. Mii Gunner also has a good juggling and edgeguarding game (his/her combo game is a work in progress, but there are some good true combos and follow ups in the Mii Gunner true combo and follow up thread). Killing with Gunner isn't very easy, but Gunner has a good variety of kill setups (including a kill confirm with 3312 gunner). In addition, mii gunner has good frame data on some killing options (frame 5 up tilt that kills around 135 depending on weight and a frame 9 down smash with good killing power for a smash attack). Mii Gunner also has a solid disadvantage state, especially with 3312. Bomb drop allows Gunner to land safely in most matchups, and gundashing is also a good mix up to land. Although Mii Gunner is somewhat easy to combo and edgeguard in comparison to the rest of the cast, Mii Gunner is good at surviving since Gunner has a good weight along with the option to gundash to the stage to mix up recovery. Mii Gunner's disadvantage state is also helped by being difficult to jab lock. Although Mii Gunner doesn't have many players to develop his/her metagame or to represent him/her in tournaments, Mii Gunner is definitely not a bad competitive pick relative to the rest of the cast.

To stay closer to the topic of this thread, I think that Mii fighter mains would be looked upon in a more positive light by dissenters if the players can work harder to develop the metagame of Mii Fighters. In addition, this will allow Mii Fighters to get more attention.

 

[wizrad]

We aren't allowed to develop the Mii meta. That's the problem.

 

[Djmarcus44]

We aren't allowed to develop the Mii meta. That's the problem.

Although we Mii fighter mains have considerable (almost unfair) disadvantages to the development of our metagame, it is still possible to show that we are trying. I think that showing people who are against Mii Fighters having their entire moveset that we are trying to use what we have can change their outlook on the Mii movement. To be honest, I would not be surprised if some people against Miis think that Mii fighter mains are just whining to use "cheap moves" to get easy wins.

 

[Gawain]

This discussion will never go away it seems. Doesn't matter what happens.

This is the honest truth of it. If the TOs don't want it then it's their call. Don't like it? Make your own tournament then. That's the end of the discussion. If the TOs at Genesis wanted every match to be played on Port Town Aerodive then guess what? That's what happens. Granted they would probably lose all their players, but It's not like anyone is forcing you or anyone else to go to Genesis or anything else. I'm not gonna softball it for you; if most people don't want miis then too bad. It's not a democracy. The same would be true if most people wanted them. Making a bunch of threads saying "oh man this is wrong here are the reasons" doesn't mean anything. It's still the TOs choice at the end of the day.

 

[wizrad]

… that really added nothing to the discussion. I think we all understand that TOs are in charge. We're debating whether a particular ruling is valid.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Or, here's a novel idea, perhaps we're trying to show existing TOs there's a decent crowd to be had in letting us in. Not some 'millions and millions', but we can increase tournament attendance without hurting things logistically or in terms of gameplay. Us entering should be welcomed, it increases the prize pool.

Right now it looks like TOs are split on either being scared out of it by so-called top players threatening to boycott their event (which in turn causes their fans to do likewise, internet army at work)... or being part of the minority looking down on Miis anyway.

We're trying to convince these TOs we're not the enemy. We do not come bringing "legalize 75m ,all items on high". We're coming with a character they don't understand, and hoping that if they get fair information put in front of them and 'top players' stop throwing tantrums whenever it looks like we might be allowed to have fun for once... that they'll let us in, without having to splinter the tournament schedule like that in making our own events.

 

[Gawain]

… that really added nothing to the discussion. I think we all understand that TOs are in charge. We're debating whether a particular ruling is valid.

Yeah, and that's what I'm talking about. Its valid because the TO said it. By definition that is what makes a ruling valid. That's seriously the end of that debate. Hence why these threads are pointless.

P Pegasus Knight
What you are referring to as "internet armies" is called an opposing opinion. One which appears to be the majority. Disagreeing with you on something subjective doesn't make them wrong. Hypnotoad was right when he said you're going to have to compromise if you even want a chance, and you guys basically ignored him.

No one is going to let you have all your custom options. That's simply not going to happen. People very clearly don't want it. If you disagree then the only option you have is to make your own tournaments and convince people that way.

Also, it's not about TO's being uninformed. You are insulting their intelligence by saying that. You are aware that they play the games they host right?

 

[RIP|Merrick]

Not every TO plays the games they host for tournaments, and not every TO makes exactly the most valid or informed decisions. There clearly is enough interest in Miis having all their custom options equally as much as there is against that same idea. Nobody is right or wrong when bringing up discussion or debate on why Miis should be strictly 1111 with the rest of the cast, those who want Miis to have customs, and those who want every character to have customs. It just shows how varied and vastly different scenes want these things handled given how different it is, and again, no one person who is informed and gives an opinion is wrong on the matter (except for those who have been outright banning Miis as a whole, now that's just booty cheeks).

 

[Gawain]

Not every TO plays the games they host for tournaments, and not every TO makes exactly the most valid or informed decisions. There clearly is enough interest in Miis having all their custom options equally as much as there is against that same idea. Nobody is right or wrong when bringing up discussion or debate on why Miis should be strictly 1111 with the rest of the cast, those who want Miis to have customs, and those who want every character to have customs. It just shows how varied and vastly different scenes want these things handled given how different it is, and again, no one person who is informed and gives an opinion is wrong on the matter (except for those who have been outright banning Miis as a whole, now that's just booty cheeks).

Why is the decision of a TO not valid? It's their tournament. Any choice they make is valid. Can you claim it's uninformed? I guess so, but who are you to say that? My point is, if it were a bigger deal to most people then big TOs would be open to discuss. That doesn't appear to be the case though.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

If Miis are banned entirely from tournaments for no other reason than just because, then something isn't right there. And it has been a major deal in our community, otherwise we wouldn't constantly be having threads for this and discussion them. TOs need to be more mindful of the things they set in place for their tournaments or they set a dangerous precedent for future events. If a major removes the likes of fine stages like Lylat, Duck Hunt, Town & City, and Dreamland for no reason other than because and we're left with only three stages, other regionals and tournaments in general would be influenced by such a decision and follow suit because the Smash community as a whole are sheep who just follow their leader no matter how unreasonable or ridiculous their decision, and it shows for most tournaments with Mii legality.

 

[T0MMY]

If the TOs don't want it then it's their call. Don't like it? Make your own tournament then. That's the end of the discussion.

Although I do approve of providing the "market" with an alternative product, I disagree that it's the end of the discussion. Not only have I hosted tournaments that fully allow Mii fighters, but I have also made a change in rules for other events by use of attendee demand.
When there's 90% players who make it known that a ruling needs to be removed then it happens (quite effectively!). If the TO wants to be a mean nasty and refuses to listen to attendees that's when someone can host their own tournament with the rules the players want and the market will shift to the demand which means the mean nasty TO loses the market to a stronger product/service.
It's not about democracy, it's about Free Market Solution.

Or, here's a novel idea, perhaps we're trying to show existing TOs there's a decent crowd to be had in letting us in. Not some 'millions and millions', but we can increase tournament attendance without hurting things logistically or in terms of gameplay. Us entering should be welcomed, it increases the prize pool.

This is what has been known in politics for a very long time. The majority of a population doesn't care enough to say anything, so they become a silent support. And it has been shown that just 20% of the population is enough to support a change.
I think those supporting Mii fighters is well over 20%.
Should be a piece of cake.

What you are referring to as "internet armies" is called an opposing opinion. One which appears to be the majority. Disagreeing with you on something subjective doesn't make them wrong. Hypnotoad was right when he said you're going to have to compromise if you even want a chance, and you guys basically ignored him.

He was not completely ignored - I actually responded to him.
It's a shame his post came off as insulting so whatever support he could have garnered for whatever point he was making probably was lost due to ineffective rhetoric. I see this as an issue that he not only attempted to make problems (creating an idea that nobody wanted to compromise) while simultaneously offering no solution, just demonizing those of us who have successfully employed logical foundation for rules so our position has credible position from which to argue.
Once he offers a solution instead of just creating problems then the words will have more strength to be heard. Right now they are just drowned out by more reasonable posts. That's just how discussion works.

Also, it's not about TO's being uninformed. You are insulting their intelligence by saying that. You are aware that they play the games they host right?

Actually, no, not all of them do.
And I can tell you from experience not only are the TO's grossly uninformed, but so are many of the players who do in fact play the game - additionally there is a whole lot of disinfo that is out there. Politely explaining why I agree to a competitive ruleset that does not employ unnecessary and anti-competitive out-of-game rulings is exactly what changes peoples' opinions. Those who refuse have ulterior motives and if they enjoy pandering, cow-towing, and/or fallacy then that will just have to be an embarrassment to their events as well as the Smash Community at large we have to accept. Nothing anyone can do about that, it's all on them.

Yeah, and that's what I'm talking about. Its valid because the TO said it. By definition that is what makes a ruling valid. That's seriously the end of that debate. Hence why these threads are pointless.

Could we please stay with the commonly defined use of "valid"? Validity is a true conclusion. If a TO makes a ruling it may or may not be valid depending on the principles one holds. A 1111 restriction on Mii fighters is NOT valid based on competitive principles whether a TO says so or not. Saying it is valid just because of a TO is a fallacy of authority.
This is why I stress competitive principles when making rulings.
Keep in mind there is more to rulings than competitive principles, if something is beneficial for the community the ruling takes place in then it could be acceptable to allow for the ruling.
However, it appears to me that banning/restricting the Mii fighters is both INVALID from a competitive practice AND it is harmful to the community (being exclusionary to mains of those characters). The Smash 4 community does not need another schism that fractures the community and causes unnecessary turmoil.

My point is, if it were a bigger deal to most people then big TOs would be open to discuss. That doesn't appear to be the case though.

It's not about "most people", it's about a very small number of TOs who cow-tow to a very small number of players. If high-ranked player A and B say they will not attend a tournament if they allow Mii fighters their moveset then the 300+ people have to suffer the consequence of this decision?
Sounds downright anti-competitive to me, especially if the true intentions of A and B were to simply gain advantage of not having to face those 3 additional matchups.

There's plenty of other reasons why this is happening, and we shouldn't be concerned with a maybe-it's-not-a-big-deal case... because Competitive Principles overrule any issue whether people make it a big deal or not. Example: competitor A bribes the TO $500 to have him win the tournament. Not a lot of people care (either uninformed or apathy) - does this make it competitively correct? Answer: No, it still violates competitive principles whether it's a big enough deal or not.

Why do you think that Mii Gunner is that bad?

That is off topic, so I'm not going to derail the conversation. Your opinion is as valuable as anyone other, but my label of "worst character" would be based on actual tournament data, that the character with the least results is placed the least; opinion/theorycrafting/hopes/wishes/dreams can't impact something based on tournament data - you can, however, message me with tournament data of any majors that show where Mii gunner has placed in a major this year and I can update my ranking of the character based on those results. Just message me about it and we'll leave the discussion on Mii fighters on topic here.[/QUOTE]

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Also, it's not about TO's being uninformed. You are insulting their intelligence by saying that. You are aware that they play the games they host right?

I'm aware, and I'm not insulting them. People can play the game with inaccurate or missing info. Especially on three characters that have trouble even being featured in competition. Misconceptions abound, like ideas about how changing a Mii's weight or height will massively affect how you do combos to them and you'll thus supposedly have to learn an absurdly high number of 'sub-matchups' for the Miis.

It's actually not the case, but a lot of people trot that line out.

And yes, I'm going to call it 'internet army' when some folks threaten to boycott a tournament because we might be allowed in and urge their followers to chime in to the TO about it too.

 

[wizrad]

TOs always make the right decisions, then? Don't I remember MLG having items on in Brawl?

 

[Gawain]

TOs always make the right decisions, then? Don't I remember MLG having items on in Brawl?

If that's how they want to do it then yeah. These are subjective issues. Even wanting items is still subjective. Just because it's the call you don't want doesn't make it wrong.

 

[Nobie]

I'm not against full Miis or anything, but there's something I find odd about arguments in favor of allowing all sizes and moves.

In terms of size, the argument is that size doesn't affect Mii qualities all that much, and people exaggerate (or are even misinformed) about what's different. "It's not a big deal." However, if it isn't such a big deal, why do anything but standard size? Is the argument simply that people should be able to play the Miis that they want? Or is it that the small changes that come with size allow Miis to cross the threshold between unviable and viable without greatly increasing their strengths?

Same thing with moves. If moves aren't such a big deal, why are they such a big deal?

 

[Epok]

I'm not against full Miis or anything, but there's something I find odd about arguments in favor of allowing all sizes and moves.

In terms of size, the argument is that size doesn't affect Mii qualities all that much, and people exaggerate (or are even misinformed) about what's different. "It's not a big deal." However, if it isn't such a big deal, why do anything but standard size? Is the argument simply that people should be able to play the Miis that they want? Or is it that the small changes that come with size allow Miis to cross the threshold between unviable and viable without greatly increasing their strengths?

Same thing with moves. If moves aren't such a big deal, why are they such a big deal?

Actually sizes are a significant factor. The have effects on movement speed, landing lag, range, and jump height. But I personally don't think it's something that should be stifled. It adds complexity to the character.

While I'm on the subject, what are the biggest reasons to only allow average size miis?

 

[Masonomace]

A tournament near my area within a week from now is allowing a Guest Mii size with any variant set they desire. You also get the choice of making one of each Mii Fighter in this way, but only one variant set. So if I made a Guest Mii Swordfighter, I'd make a 1323 set & I can only use that swordfighter. They didn't allow the option to make multiple sets of a single Mii Fighter which I thought was just the right way to go about it, in my opinion. I might ACTUALLY play Mii Swordfighter this Wednesday.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

Actually sizes are a significant factor. The have effects on movement speed, landing lag, range, and jump height. But I personally don't think it's something that should be stifled. It adds complexity to the character.

While I'm on the subject, what are the biggest reasons to only allow average size miis?

I think it's moreso the fear of coming across as greedy to the community at large, especially when Miis are already in a bad enough place in a lot of peoples view. I think people's priority when it comes to Miis first and foremost is the following;

Getting them legal and playable. Then the next step from there is allowing all of their special moves.

If people as a whole are barely tolerant of Miis getting all their special moves, there is no way the community at large would allow different sizes unless there was some kind of standard beyond the default Mii size. Gotta take baby steps. People still are convinced Helicopter Kick is broken and jank after all.

 

[Djmarcus44]

I think it's moreso the fear of coming across as greedy to the community at large, especially when Miis are already in a bad enough place in a lot of peoples view. I think people's priority when it comes to Miis first and foremost is the following;

Getting them legal and playable. Then the next step from there is allowing all of their special moves.

If people as a whole are barely tolerant of Miis getting all their special moves, there is no way the community at large would allow different sizes unless there was some kind of standard beyond the default Mii size. Gotta take baby steps. People still are convinced Helicopter Kick is broken and jank after all.

Miis are already legal. We are currently trying to get all of the movesets legal. The main issue with getting all sizes legal is the fact that a player has to go off of the game to get the right size if they don't have a 3DS.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

Miis are already legal. We are currently trying to get all of the movesets legal.

Miis aren't legal in the east side of our state I'm afraid, not even for 1111.

 

[T0MMY]

If that's how they want to do it then yeah. These are subjective issues. Even wanting items is still subjective. Just because it's the call you don't want doesn't make it wrong.

No, actually going against a standard is wrong by these (commonly held) definitions:
Wrong = incorrect
Incorrect = not correct
Correct = aligned to what is agreed upon (you may call this "subjective", which does not discredit what is agreed upon)
Therefore it is valid to state that anything that is contrary to an agreed-upon Standard is "wrong" to those who hold to this Standard.

Competitive Standard will have rules that set the game to NONE for Items. To disregard that standard and set the Items on any other setting is wrong.
Now, you may argue that the standards are subject to an agreement and disagree with the Standard in question, but that essentially is making a declaration that you are not a part of the group of people who agree to the Standard and anyone may refuse to play with you on principle alone. The only people who will play under your newly formed standard of whatever principles you may (or may not) have are those who agree with you... and I think I do not need to speak on just how few that will be.

Note: I think it may be Evo (2008) which used items, I don't remember any MLG I've competed in that allowed Items (I came in around 2006) - I competed in Evo 2009 when the Item rules were changed.. And, yeah, there was quite an uproar about it and many players did not attend Evo that year, deciding to attend other events instead.

Same thing with moves. If moves aren't such a big deal, why are they such a big deal?

The 'big deal argument', if I may call it that, does not set rules. If we agreed to a Principle of Big Deal that justified the argument then we'd be bound by this agreement to accept a change to anything that caused a big deal. This would entail:
Little Mac is banned
Lucario is banned
Diddy Kong is banned
Mii fighters are banned
And... well, pretty much ANYTHING is up for grabs at that point. Refuse to get good? Just make a big deal!
No, there are certain principles which competition is built on. There is no Big Deal Principle, and if you believe there should be then please make a case for it and see how well it is accept. The irony is that even if there was by some chance a way you got the Big Deal Principle to be accepted then it destroys itself because it would have to be quite a big deal to be accepted... and because it's a big deal then we ban it X^D

Miis are already legal. We are currently trying to get all of the movesets legal. The main issue with getting all sizes legal is the fact that a player has to go off of the game to get the right size if they don't have a 3DS.

When you say "a player has to [...]" it is saying there is no other option. However, I do not believe this to be true because there is the 3DS option which allows an upload from a 3DS (or 2DS) system.
Easy solution.

However, I think there should be a ruling that states anyone who takes the system offline would be subject to the TO's discretion.

 

[Djmarcus44]

When you say "a player has to [...]" it is saying there is no other option. However, I do not believe this to be true because there is the 3DS option which allows an upload from a 3DS (or 2DS) system.
Easy solution.

However, I think there should be a ruling that states anyone who takes the system offline would be subject to the TO's discretion.

The last part of my post was intended to mention transferring from a 3DS. I also said "the right size" in my post because some players have unusual sizes for miis that are not uploaded by tournaments that allow different sizes. Are you sure that Smash 4 runs on a 2DS?

RIP|Merrick I'm sorry about your situation. It sounds like people in your area must really dislike Miis.

 

[Gawain]

No, actually going against a standard is wrong by these (commonly held) definitions:
Wrong = incorrect
Incorrect = not correct
Correct = aligned to what is agreed upon (you may call this "subjective", which does not discredit what is agreed upon)
Therefore it is valid to state that anything that is contrary to an agreed-upon Standard is "wrong" to those who hold to this Standard.

Competitive Standard will have rules that set the game to NONE for Items. To disregard that standard and set the Items on any other setting is wrong.
Now, you may argue that the standards are subject to an agreement and disagree with the Standard in question, but that essentially is making a declaration that you are not a part of the group of people who agree to the Standard and anyone may refuse to play with you on principle alone. The only people who will play under your newly formed standard of whatever principles you may (or may not) have are those who agree with you... and I think I do not need to speak on just how few that will be.

Note: I think it may be Evo (2008) which used items, I don't remember any MLG I've competed in that allowed Items (I came in around 2006) - I competed in Evo 2009 when the Item rules were changed.. And, yeah, there was quite an uproar about it and many players did not attend Evo that year, deciding to attend other events instead.



The 'big deal argument', if I may call it that, does not set rules. If we agreed to a Principle of Big Deal that justified the argument then we'd be bound by this agreement to accept a change to anything that caused a big deal. This would entail:
Little Mac is banned
Lucario is banned
Diddy Kong is banned
Mii fighters are banned
And... well, pretty much ANYTHING is up for grabs at that point. Refuse to get good? Just make a big deal!
No, there are certain principles which competition is built on. There is no Big Deal Principle, and if you believe there should be then please make a case for it and see how well it is accept. The irony is that even if there was by some chance a way you got the Big Deal Principle to be accepted then it destroys itself because it would have to be quite a big deal to be accepted... and because it's a big deal then we ban it X^D


When you say "a player has to [...]" it is saying there is no other option. However, I do not believe this to be true because there is the 3DS option which allows an upload from a 3DS (or 2DS) system.
Easy solution.

However, I think there should be a ruling that states anyone who takes the system offline would be subject to the TO's discretion.

You can play around with words and definitions all you want champ, it doesn't change anything. There is no set competitive law. Is there a standard? Sure. Does that mean that every event needs to confirm to them? Not even remotely. By your ridiculous rules, things like character round robins are "wrong" and "incorrect". Do you know how silly that makes you sound? Not everything needs to conform to a standard, having variety in events is in fact a good thing you know. And who are you to tell people how to play the game or run their events?

I think it's clear that you are incapable of seeing things any other way but your own, so I'll leave you to your thread. I wash myself of this weirdness.

 

[FSLink]

You can play around with words and definitions all you want champ, it doesn't change anything. There is no set competitive law. Is there a standard? Sure. Does that mean that every event needs to confirm to them? Not even remotely. By your ridiculous rules, things like character round robins are "wrong" and "incorrect". Do you know how silly that makes you sound? Not everything needs to conform to a standard, having variety in events is in fact a good thing you know. And who are you to tell people how to play the game or run their events?

I think it's clear that you are incapable of seeing things any other way but your own, so I'll leave you to your thread. I wash myself of this weirdness.

Having a variety of rulesets and different standards is great, but when people are restricting Miis in the majority of tournaments due to ignorance, I do think there's merit in arguing for it.

I'm all for the community agreeing to ban Miis as a standard due to them being custom characters, this isn't an unprecedented thing in fighting games...but you still see people banning or restricting Miis just due to them not understanding how they work. We still have people calling Helicopter Kick "jank", or saying that Miis take too much time to set up, or still thinking 1111 is their default despite their nature/gimmick is being custom create-a-characters.

 

[Pazzo.]

As someone who is interested in playing Mii Brawler in the future, I hope this community can remove the silly idea that Miis can only use 1111 to be balanced.

Also,

It's worth pointing out that the 1111 compromise is about as respectful and logically sound as the three-fifths compromise.

Can you spell B-U-R-N?