What's the deal?

[Luco]

Link to original post: [drupal=5431]What's the deal?[/drupal]



I've been on the boards for a year or two now and one of the things I see most often across all threads are melee vs. brawl arguments. I know it, i've been a part of a few of these myself (and as i've stated before, to defend myself, I argue that both games have their benefits, etc.). What bothers me is that these just up and happen anywhere, anytime. It takes one flamer or even a troll and the troops come in to flame each other for the game they prefer.

One of the biggest things I should say here before I make my point is that I know not everyone does this. Trust me, I know people from both sides that are truly stunning people and wouldn't fight about this if it was the last thing on earth. What i'm talking about here is a minority. So don't worry, I know that many people who play either game are fine to just have fun playing those games.

It bugs me that this happens quite a bit though, even with that minority. Where is our bond? I don't go on other forums much but do other series have these arguments on their games? Why do we fight each other about this? I see people tearing each other to shreds because they find Brawl fun or they find Melee fun and it's actually really depressing. This doesn't feel like the way the community should work. What's going on?

To me all it seems to be is immaturity. People either want to boost their game and put the other down or something and it leads to flame wars. I mean what the heck? Melee is very technical and faster paced. Brawl is slower and more floaty. Why can't these two co-exist? What is the person's problem with the other one. They're the same series. We should be sticking up for each other, not having pointless arguments on the legitimacy of a series that is often called out on by other gamers as not even being a fighter. Focus on that. Better, just play the darn games. Have fun. Don't stop other people having fun.

condensed version: Melee vs. Brawl arguments are stupid. Go do something else rather than spark that debate over and over. Play the game or go do something in RL but don't bring the idiocy in here.

Phew! Alright. I needed to get that out of my bones. Been working me up for ages. I hope someone sees what i'm saying.

Anyway, is it a legitimate argument? Am I going crazy? I know we are entitled to our own opinions but must this start up all the time? Or am I just in the wrong? It all feels so messed up. >.<

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Baaasically, because the scene started with Melee and lots of tight bonds were formed on this forum and in real life entirely through love of that game, the community is like a family to an extent.

The hype Brawl built-up in the competitive scene pre-release was HUGE, but for most of us, it was a massive let-down. This 'objectively inferior' game (as many called it) was threatening to take over the community; the forums and tournaments were swarmed with annoying, young newbie players, Brawl got picked up by Evo and MLG in-place of Melee, Melee had some of its star representatives switching over to Brawl (most notably M2K) just to keep up with the metagame, etc...

Needless to say, Melee fans took out their frustration on the Brawl community. Young, brash Brawl players retaliated.

It escalated.

Welcome to 2012.

 

[Teran]

It is an argument that will not die on here until Smash 4 comes out.

Basically Brawl comes out, has a bunch of stuff Melee players disliked, bunch of people stilll adopted Brawl as their choice of game, Melee players got mad, and it kinda goes on from there.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I liked my explanation better. :3

 

[Karnu]

It bugs me too but I hate it how the melee players behave about it. I work with miniature horses and people with normal horses give us this **** as well >.<

I mainly play brawl though and I'm learning melee but if I was one of those melee players I would accept brawl and also try to get the brawl people into melee teaching them how to play.

Also is it just me or is P:M sort of bring the Melee players and brawl players together?

 

[Strong Badam]

The majority of both communities don't understand what makes a good game. So on one hand, you have people playing Brawl when it's comparatively pretty bad, and on the other you have a bunch of Melee players trying to argue why it's bad and failing. Then the Brawl players get mad and try to defend the game (??? I've never had to defend a game that was good before), and then the cycle continues.

Then the moderators decided that the absolute best way to deal with this is to infract people bashing either game even in the opposite game's subforum, oh and also let's ignore the majority of the Brawl posters. Welcome to 2012.

The best (or... worst) part is that I'm pretty sure there won't be much of a Brawl community after Smash 4 comes out. A lot of the [actual] reasoning for playing Brawl over Melee are shallow (Melee's old/Brawl has more characters/It was the new game when I joined the community), so naturally the game isn't actually adored by the majority of its players, it's just the newest. Really, most of the people defending Brawl don't particularly love the game they're trying to defend, just the concept of it. And so when Smash 4 comes out all of the Brawl defenders who spent so much time vehemently arguing why their game is so good, will suddenly flock to the newer and shinier game without a thought. The Melee community on the other hand will continue far after Smash 4 comes out, because it's built on how good the game is, rather than what's newer or fresher.

Yeah, most of the BvM posters are posting out of immaturity. I was reading a Brawl & Melee tournament thread the other day and a Melee player started ragging on a Brawl player for no reason other than playing Brawl. That doesn't even accomplish anything... lol. It's upsetting when the legitimate ones are shut down because of the other, however.

Realistically though, it's not too far-fetched for someone to want the entirety of the Smash community to unite under one game, regardless of which side you're on. APEX 2012 had 400 Brawl entrants and 320 Melee entrants. If it were instead one single Smash game that everyone enjoyed, our numbers would be at least 600 or more. It'd be much easier for our community to grow if we didn't have two games. Prize pots wouldn't be split, sponsorships wouldn't be split, stream time wouldn't be split. The logistics of running a tournament with multiple games are a nightmare, let alone two games in the same series that both require CRT TVs.

 

[Karnu]

You know what really grinds my gears? How the TOS act like this.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=325136&page=72

If you go deeper into to the thread you will find that they took brawls pot out for no reason at all.

 

[Teran]

Then the moderators decided that the absolute best way to deal with this is to infract people bashing either game even in the opposite game's subforum, oh and also let's ignore the majority of the Brawl posters. Welcome to 2012.

The mods infract it because it is a 4 year old dead horse that has been ground down to dust.

All it ever amounts to is flaming and trolling.

 

[ZelDan]

It is an argument that will not die on here until Smash 4 comes out.

Basically Brawl comes out, has a bunch of stuff Melee players disliked, bunch of people stilll adopted Brawl as their choice of game, Melee players got mad, and it kinda goes on from there.

I don't know. If Smash 4 ends up being even more controversial than Brawl for whatever reason (that'd be pretty hard to pull off considering so of the questionable and bad design decisions in brawl), then Melee vs. brawl arguments would probably continue. There just might be another smash game getting mixed into the mess.

hopefully Smash 4 won't be so polarizing though.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I think everyone who participates in the Melee vs Brawl discussions is either willingly getting trolled, or trolling. I know for one that I enjoy starting Melee vs Brawl debates, only because there are people that actually take this serious and get butthurt.

 

[Firus]

I think everyone who participates in the Melee vs Brawl discussions is either willingly getting trolled, or trolling. I know for one that I enjoy starting Melee vs Brawl debates, only because there are people that actually take this serious and get butthurt.

I don't think that's it. A lot of people do just troll in Melee vs. Brawl, but I enjoy (or used to, anyway) them just because it was an opportunity to express my opinions one way or another. I think a lot of people were just angry about the other game or the other side, and wanted to vent, I guess? And in the end, I'd probably attribute my realization of my problems with Brawl (and ultimately changing to vastly prefer Melee) to listening to the arguments.

Problem is that 99% of the population is not willing to change their position on anything ever and would prefer to sit there arguing and defending what they set out to defend instead. Stubborn people in arguments eventually ends up with insults, because every possible argument has been thrown out there, people get fed up because the other side isn't listening to them, and nobody can say anything nice or even talk about it at all because they're too busy hating the other side for not sharing their opinion.

It's the exact same thing with politics, which is why I refuse to discuss politics with people. Nobody ever budges because they insist on maintaining their current position, and eventually the only things that are left to say are insults and attacks.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Trust me, this does happen a lot in other game series, namely ones that have some sort of a competitive scene. I'm thinking of Halo, because I'm big into that series right now with Halo 4 only a few days away.

The problem is that with every new installment in a series, people give in to the hype and expect WAAAY too much, which will only lead to them being let down when the game is actually released. Their hopes for what the game would be and what the game actually is clash and as a result, they tend to dislike the game, sometimes even hate the game. There are also things like their favorite features being removed or new annoying features being added that turn them off.

If you told someone that they could only play either Melee or Brawl but not both for the rest of their life, they would most likely have an answer. I myself would choose Melee, but that doesn't mean I think Brawl is a bad game. I think it's a great game, and it is fun to play, but I prefer Melee. Others, however, like one game and hate the other with a passion.

With the release of Smash 4, I encourage everyone to not let their expectations get out of hand.... actually, expect anything. If you have an idea of what you think the ideal game will be before it is released, I guarantee you will be disappointed. So... don't do that. Accept it for what it is, not what you thought it would be.

 

[Falconv1.0]

It is an argument that will not die on here until Smash 4 comes out.

Kinda how Brawl is gonna die the instant Smash 4 comes out unless 4 is a massive train wreck.

 

[FoxBlaze71]

Never thought much about the nature of Brawl players being relevent to BvM, but I agree. Just read a few pages of the Smashboards Arena thread.

 

[ndayday]

Trust me, this does happen a lot in other game series, namely ones that have some sort of a competitive scene. I'm thinking of Halo, because I'm big into that series right now with Halo 4 only a few days away.

Basically this, it happens with any series that has a decent sized fanbase.

Also the medium being the internet doesn't help the civility of the discussion lol.

 

[Life]

It is an argument that will not die on here until Smash 4 comes out.

>implying bvm is ever going to die

I know I plan on continuing to play Brawl when the next game comes out. It'll certainly shrink a lot (and so will Melee, depending on how much 4 fixes Brawl's problems, real or perceived), but I don't see it dying outright (see 64). I didn't go in expecting it to be exactly like Melee--yeah, I definitely made a " :/ " face when I failed to wavedash, and it could use more hitstun, but I still find it enjoyable.

Melee's engine lends it better for spectating and combo video-type shenanigans.

PM is better than both, but it's a hack which has its own drawbacks.

As for Smash 4, it can't get here soon enough. I'll reserve judgment until I get my hands on it. As I do with every other game. No expectations. Enjoying it for what it is, not what I thought it was...

 

[Teran]

Kinda how Brawl is gonna die the instant Smash 4 comes out unless 4 is a massive train wreck.

It will die anyway.

 

[deepseadiva]

I've been on the boards for a year or two now and one of the things I see most often across all threads are melee vs. brawl arguments.

Did this get bumped from 2009 or something.

 

[Life]

bvm outlasts both melee and brawl, calling it now

 

[Teran]

Like seriously **** Melee vs Brawl what the **** is wrong with you people can't you just give such rendundant nonsense a goddamn rest?

Nobody gives a **** about Brawl or Melee, Brawl because it was never really all that good competitively, and Melee because its momentum got killed and now it is just sort of floating along with its dedicated community.

Why don't you focus on more enjoyable and stimulating stuff than **** that was honestly resolved if you have a brain like 4 years ago?

No?

Okay jack.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You know what really grinds my gears? How the TOS act like this.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=325136&page=72

If you go deeper into to the thread you will find that they took brawls pot out for no reason at all.

Nova is just a jack-***, don't let him tarnish your view of all TOs (even though he wasn't the TO, technically)
Also, they only took out the pot *boost*, not the pot itself.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

>implying bvm is ever going to die

I know I plan on continuing to play Brawl when the next game comes out. It'll certainly shrink a lot (and so will Melee, depending on how much 4 fixes Brawl's problems, real or perceived), but I don't see it dying outright (see 64). I didn't go in expecting it to be exactly like Melee--yeah, I definitely made a " :/ " face when I failed to wavedash, and it could use more hitstun, but I still find it enjoyable.

Melee's engine lends it better for spectating and combo video-type shenanigans.

PM is better than both, but it's a hack which has its own drawbacks.

As for Smash 4, it can't get here soon enough. I'll reserve judgment until I get my hands on it. As I do with every other game. No expectations. Enjoying it for what it is, not what I thought it was...

Brawl vs Melee is not going on forever, like Strong Bad said, most of the Brawl defenders will stop caring and move onto Smash 4 after that comes out. Once it leaves the Brawl scene dead and the Melee scene essentially untouched after a few months Melee players won't have much reason to bash on Brawl anymore and nobody will care when/if anybody does anyways.

I also disagree with buying whatever game has the word Smash Brothers on it and taking what I can get. I'd like to know that I'm actually spending my money on a quality game first.

 

[Vkrm]

I started a lot bvm debates in my time here on SWF. All brawl players say the same thing. They always have say something about how comparing the games is fruitless, and how it's our fault the communities split. Brawl is such trash it shouldn't even have a community. Don't even tell me about how my attitude is whats stopping you from playing melee because I, to be honest, don't give a damn. If you are the type of whiny baby who refuses to give melee a chance cause youre afraid of being bullied, the melee scene doesn't want you.....that's really harsh....To be honest though, that whole last bit was aimed mostly at ethereal, I know he's out there, watching....waiting....
You see, my whole issue is that brawl players decide to play brawl. It's quite easy to get them to admit melee is better but they always go back to brawl..... Very confusing.... Probably just scared of the steep learning curve they pretend melee has.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I've spoken to the solo-Brawl players in my state about why they don't like Melee; and sometimes it's as simple as not enjoying the greater focus on technical ability. That doesn't mean they are "scared" of it, it's just preference.

Melee isn't 'Brawl but better', they both fill different niches.

inb4 close-minded response

 

[Vkrm]

Different niches? I guess your right. Brawl is for people who want to be able to go sleep while they play a match. I really doubt who ever told you they didn't like melee's focus on tech even played melee. He should've played jiggs. I feel he probably saw or heard it in a brawl vs melee debate and thought, "yeah that sounds good. I'll point out flaws melee doesn't have."

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Obviously people enjoy and can stay awake playing Brawl, even if you find it boring.
Obviously people aren't going to ditch Brawl for a single character in Melee.
The friend in question ('allens' on this forum) has played Melee plenty of times, and can wavedash/l-cancel consistently.

Do me a favour and read your posts aloud before sharing them next time, and just try not to go into this with a bias.

 

[Vkrm]

If he can already wave dash and lcancel why does he have a problem with melee requiring tech? Doesnt make sense. Did he think mastering the two would automatically make him good at melee? Also I'm not biased. I started competitive smash with brawl. It pissed me off when people said melee was better. I began looking for things I could use to prove them wrong. None of the pro brawl arguments hold water. When I realized that melee was the better competitive game, The logical thing to do was switch.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You clearly are biased, and your story just strengthens that (you remember how you thought Brawl was better than Melee due to ignorance, and now believe that everyone who feels the same way as you did is also acting from ignorance).

Starcraft is more competitive than melee, why haven't you swapped yet?

He doesn't want to have to constantly apply tech-skill (especially when it is artificial difficulty like l-cancelling, which IS a flaw in this "flawless" game) when he could spend that time out-smarting the opponent instead. In other words "Why should a missed l-cancel decide whether I get a punish or not, even though I got the read?"

Why hasn't this been locked yet.

 

[Vkrm]

If you got the read and missed the lcancel, means you made a technical error and missed your punish. You made a mistake. Same way you planned on punishing your opponent for being predictable, he's punishing you for being sloppy. May I ask why all brawl players have a problem with lcanceling?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Because it doesn't actually add any meaningful depth to the game. It's just a pointless technical barrier you have to overcome to play, which gets in the way of actual "competition" (player vs. player).

Could you answer my question about why you haven't switched from Melee to a more competitive game?

 

[Vkrm]

Melee isn't the only game I play. I'm really into sf. Playing a lot of soul caliber and Im planning on picking up halo4. I really gotta ask, would make sc more competitive? Im not saying its not, i just want to make sure i know what you mean. If you're going to label any kind of physical challenge unmeaningful, then why play brawl? Just get in to rock paper scissors, that way there's literally nothing getting between you and you're opponent. Would you want power shielding removed? By your logic, it's just an unessessary skill barrier for people who can't master it isn't that right?

 

[Teran]

Lol @ picking up Halo 4.

No but really, nobody cares what you think. Nobody cares what other people think. It's not like the Melee players even know what constitutes a good competitive game either, it's probably a large part of why a lot of the arguments are so ********.

"Melee has more tech skill involved. You have to practice hours and hours just to be able to get to a passable level where you can start applying mental strategy."

That's right, arbritrary tech skill that only forms an unnecessary barrier to what the game is actually about makes it a good competitive game. Sure.

____ is a great game cos u got 2 grind 4 like 90 hours be4 u can get da hear 2 b pro dass so gud dnt wnt no ****in n00bs cmoin in nd thinkin dey hot **** LOL

 

[Vinylic.]

Melee isn't the only game I play. I'm really into sf. Playing a lot of soul caliber and Im planning on picking up halo4. I really gotta ask, would make sc more competitive? Im not saying its not, i just want to make sure i know what you mean. If you're going to label any kind of physical challenge unmeaningful, then why play brawl? Just get in to rock paper scissors, that way there's literally nothing getting between you and you're opponent. Would you want power shielding removed? By your logic, it's just an unessessary skill barrier for people who can't master it isn't that right?

By the gods, stop posting. Why the hell are you even going in depth just because of players reasoning of why the don't really play melee much? Question yourself that, really. As you can pretty much see, all three smash games are different, and we're different, so we have different kinds of games we feel more better playing on.

Bashing for that is just not necessary.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You're dodging the question. Unless all of those games are perfectly equal competitively, by your logic, you should only be playing one of them (the best one). Whether SC is actually more competitive than Melee or not is irrelevant.

Are you familiar with the slippery slope fallacy? You're falling into it a lot. The competition offered by RPS is way too simple to be entertaining.

The only reason L-Cancelling should be removed is because there is no reason not to do it.
In a perfect world, there is no reason to not perfect shield either; but in real life players use shielding and perfect shielding in different situations.

 

[Teran]

Because he is new and wants points with the Melee marks.

Also Brawl has better graphics.

 

[Vkrm]

I guess teran is recite a bunch of anti brawl nonsense. Come up with obvious rebuttals, and pretend he got the better of me. Come on man, back when I used to lurk I thought you were cool.
@grimtuesday I had planned to get into Starcraft right before 2 came out. I had a really ****ty monitor on top of me having bad eye sight. So I wasn't too crazy about it. It may be that sc is a better competitive game then melee. If that's the case consider me retired. Rock paper scissors is not the best form of competition? It's too simple?

Guess what......




So is brawl.

 

[Teran]

No I've always mentioned that Brawl sucks but that doesn't mean that some of the Melee reasoning isn't stupid.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

So, assuming that SC is the most competitive thing, you will gladly drop everything else to pursue it purely because of that? Bull****.

Brawl might be too simple for you, just as RPS is too simple for me. Yet we still have Brawl and RPS players. I feel like we can take some lesson away from this paragraph about preference and opinions.

 

[Teran]

To his credit, some opinions can be stupid, and you don't necessarily have to respect them.

Also the whole tech skill thing I've mentioned before, a bunch of times.

 

[Vkrm]

Which ever game rewards skill is the game I want to play. You posted earlier about powershielding. Is there strategic value in not powershielding?