I can't imagine this...do you have any vids of you vs. KM, the only one I found was this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJx-ZuKTnvQ) and you two stocked him...The last tournament I went to I ended up 3 stocking R1/2 stock 3% R2 Peachkid and 2 Stocking Snakeee's Peach R1 with <50%. Peach has no kill moves, and no real approach so if you play conservative, it is too easy to win by a large margin. I don't see how Peach can be a counter to Diddy, Diddy's Fair just owns Peach in almost everyway and you can just shieldgrab Peach's standard Fair->AA approach. I don't see how Peach can win this matchup...What is he doing that causes so much trouble?
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What's holding our monkey back? A discussion for weaknesses and common problems.
- Thread starter Vyse
- Start date
Le_THieN
Smash Lord
LOL.
It sounds illogical on paper. But trust me, we will dissect this very soon.
Peach (or KOS-MOS) ****ing ***** Diddy.
ADHD
Smash Hero
NL is far better at peaches you want to see that lol
You can't edgeguard good marths, well you can get free hits but it won't ever gimp him.
You can't edgeguard good marths, well you can get free hits but it won't ever gimp him.
white peachy
Smash Ace
Flip kick is money against peach. I believe it goes through all her aerials. Other than that, it's pretty tough. She's really under-rated as a character.
Darknid
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2008
- Messages
- 449
DDD on castle seige affects Falco, Snake, Wario, D3 and other contenders for the 3 spot, doesn't it? Maybe that's why D3 should be 3, but that's more of a universal problem that affects even a top tier character. I don't know, I just see Diddy as having something special that so few characters have as far as potential goes.
Dekar173
Justice Man
Diddy will bounce even further up in the tier list (maybe 2 or 3) and then other mains will decide to finally pick him up and TRULY learn to play with items (glide toss combos, z-catching, shieldbouncing, IHSAing, instant throwing, etc.)
We'll just have to continue being innovative to remain at the top
We'll just have to continue being innovative to remain at the top
This argument will go no where; if you haven't noticed both sides are merely making this match-up subjective to one or two aspects of the match which is awful. We're just attacking one specific area of the Marth match-up which does not make an efficient nor effective argument; this is going no where. Since my partner mains Marth and play Domo's Marth weekly, it's no wonder I have grown a large distaste for the character. I believe that this match up is roughly 65-35 or 60-40; arguably Diddy's worst match-up and if not I think Falco and Luigi come close behind. Regardless of how many mind-games Diddy players can set-up or how differently we play, that only makes this match-up easier, but still far from even. That is the point I am trying to make, not that Marth is impossible to beat; all of the situations you have listed I have done, sometimes with success and obviously some times I have faltered. The fact is, this match-up is more difficult than a lot of match-ups Diddy has.
I think Diddy is a phenomenal character but agree with ADHD that Diddy can not and will not make it past 4th (I might go to say 5th) on the tier list because a lot of his match-ups are 50-50. If you notice Diddy does not have advantage in a lot of match-ups and a whole lot that are just dead even. The reason Diddy is so good honestly, is because of the people who play him. That again however, is just my opinion.
Now that I think about it...Peach does sound like a bad match-up for us? What's the general ratio on that? There are not any good Peach players here though so I can not say anything.
i agree 100% with the above. diddy is so good because the player that uses him utilizes both his advantages and understands his disadvantages and does not try to get into certain situations. basically mindgames>all for diddy really. bananas make this super possible. mind****s everywhere!
@fighting peach. isnt running upsmash good against peach or FH fairs?
ADHD
Smash Hero
A good peach will catch on and bait them. Its just guessing game.
Dekar173
Justice Man
4RCE you're assuming my argument is of equivalent importance to yours. It's not.
If knocking Marth off of the ledge and aggressively zoning the stage to the point where "he's off of the stage, therefore he's losing a stock" that is a HUGE step in the direction of winning.
Your argument is that SHDF ***** you (and only you) and therefore the match-up is 65:35, or 60:40 in Marth's favor.
My play against top Marth players at WHOBO sort of leads me to thinking the Marth match-up is vastly in our favor, but I haven't played NEO, so maybe HE is just the Diddy slayer and not Marth, kind of like Kos-Mos XD
If knocking Marth off of the ledge and aggressively zoning the stage to the point where "he's off of the stage, therefore he's losing a stock" that is a HUGE step in the direction of winning.
Your argument is that SHDF ***** you (and only you) and therefore the match-up is 65:35, or 60:40 in Marth's favor.
My play against top Marth players at WHOBO sort of leads me to thinking the Marth match-up is vastly in our favor, but I haven't played NEO, so maybe HE is just the Diddy slayer and not Marth, kind of like Kos-Mos XD
Please re-read this part of my post.
Now note the part of your post that I have bolded; notice the subjectivity? Regardless of how significant this may be it does not make it any less situational. I think I said something in a previous post saying that Diddy Kong should not be able to ledge or edge guard Marth with a lot of success which should counter your argument pretty well, at least I think so. I did not mean to make it sound like the SHDF define the entire match-up, simply that that is one of the tactics that make Marth fairly successful, wouldn't you agree?
Now refer to the part of this that I have underlined. Not only are you acting immature by what you said in parentheses, but you are also putting words in my mouth. Please stop doing both.
If you want to hear my entire argument on why I believe the Marth match-up to be 60-40 or even 65-35 than please PM me. I don't think the boards need to hear this argument anymore, or at least make a thread for this specific match-up like the Diddy vs. Meta Knight thread.
Thank you.
(O_o)y
Gnes
Smash Master
Did u play Roy_R in tourney...i guarantee the experience will be different. Me and him practice together i usually jv 2 stock/1stock him but ive never beaten him once in tourney. At a small tourney(ozzfest 2)we played in losers and he 3-1ed me. Marths spacing has no opening for diddy.
Hanson...Kos-Mos makes me want to switch mains...lol...He is the diddy killer.
Diddy wont move above 4th. When other mains becoming actually familiar with naner usage...diddy will have to rely more on his non-naner game, which is average at best. Not to say that naners won't be useful, but their effectiveness will go down in the future.
I'm iffy about Peach.
I think she may have a small advantage, but I haven't run into anyone that has really scared me yet so its hard to tell. The best Peach in the MW is Rowan and I beat him the only time we ever played. I lost to the EC Peach SSR at Crit Hit 4.5 in December, then I beat him 2-0 at COT4 in brackets. So, shrug, if you learn to avoid the obvious stuff (dair combos basically and fairs/usmash) it isn't to hard.
I may know more about what to do because I played Peach in Melee though and Brawl peach players similar.
I think she may have a small advantage, but I haven't run into anyone that has really scared me yet so its hard to tell. The best Peach in the MW is Rowan and I beat him the only time we ever played. I lost to the EC Peach SSR at Crit Hit 4.5 in December, then I beat him 2-0 at COT4 in brackets. So, shrug, if you learn to avoid the obvious stuff (dair combos basically and fairs/usmash) it isn't to hard.
I may know more about what to do because I played Peach in Melee though and Brawl peach players similar.
ADHD
Smash Hero
She definitely has an advantage but I don't think its that much.
Le_THieN
Smash Lord
If I cordially ask Roy not to sandbag me, he won't. I played Roy all night the evening before OH SNAP! v4.0 (while he was fresh off his loss against Flip at HOBO 12), and I could tell exactly when he learned the match-up; he ended my seven-game winning streak and went on a 20-game tear against me.
Then he ended my championship dreams the next night in Loser's Finals. =(((((((
Other than that, Roy is notorious for sandbagging.
LOL, that's why you and Noel were being ho-bags by double-teaming him in our team bracket matches. =) We were supposed to win; I was going to **** your MK, and Chris was going to **** Flip's Diddy...LOL.
<3 Texas
Diddy will be moved down in the tier list if anything, honestly. People don't even know what the tip of the iceberg of the anti-banana game is. It's just a matter of time.
I don't think there's much of a correlation, to be honest. I played Chris' Peach in Melee extensively for a long time, and his recent tear in tournaments have demonstrated Brawl Peach on a meta-game path that doesn't even remotely resemble his style from Melee (for a number of obvious reasons). This isn't to discredit whatever knowledge you have of the match-up, of course; but I'm just going to chalk this up to the fact that no one except for Flip, Gness and myself have played The Best Peach Player in the Country™, so I guess I'll wait to see how you guys feel about Peach after you play him.
ADHD
Smash Hero
No! I have charisma now! He's staying fourth mother****ers
Le_THieN
Smash Lord
ADHD
Smash Hero
She can't even check her email in less than two hours I don't think she could handle a facebook account >_<
Player-1
Smash Legend
your face can't handle a facebook account
ADHD
Smash Hero
your facebook account can't handle your face! OOOOOOHHHHHHHHHH GET *****
Player-1
Smash Legend
I don't have a facebook account because it's stupid
I feel like this thread is beginning to hold my monkey back.
:monkey:
pastaboy
Smash Champion
it seems more players are earning the title "diddy killer" as THieN said:its only a matter of time.
They can't do it on the EC or in the MW yet.
I don't know about Texas/Cali, but at least where I've been everyone does the same stuff against Diddy, some do it slightly better, but in the end no one does anything to negate how amazing Diddy is. There is no singular solution for an opponent who is dealing with bananas.
I don't know about Texas/Cali, but at least where I've been everyone does the same stuff against Diddy, some do it slightly better, but in the end no one does anything to negate how amazing Diddy is. There is no singular solution for an opponent who is dealing with bananas.
I think that players that are "diddy killers" just know the matchup so well that when they play other Diddys, they do really well, due to the fact that the Diddy usually doesn't know the Peach/Wolf/other matchup that well. When we learn the other matchups, it will reflect the true rations, except for MK, he will only get better...
Kaptain Kong
Smash Lord
mk doesnt have that far to go, there isnt much more to discover, just matchups and stuff like that
its not like hes gonna drop though, he'll just stay in broken tier
its not like hes gonna drop though, he'll just stay in broken tier
pastaboy
Smash Champion
i personally think if other players evolve to diddys games and becoem "diddy killers", we will just evolve in accordance to that, its a never ending cycle.
Bellioes
Smash Lord
But we can say this of all characters really. IMO its just a general rule that all matchups follow as the metagame developes.
EDIT: Actually theres a problem with what I just said. I believe this rule actually only applies to matchups that are close to even (at the most 6:4). If the matchup is tipped too far in one characters favor, then it becomes very difficult if not impossible to reverse the matchup. When its even, or close to it, every little thing that each character finds can help tip the matchup in their favor. Itll just go back and forth until no new discoveries are found.
EDIT: Actually theres a problem with what I just said. I believe this rule actually only applies to matchups that are close to even (at the most 6:4). If the matchup is tipped too far in one characters favor, then it becomes very difficult if not impossible to reverse the matchup. When its even, or close to it, every little thing that each character finds can help tip the matchup in their favor. Itll just go back and forth until no new discoveries are found.
Gnes
Smash Master
Well as for peach..me, flip, and Le thien all know the peach matchup very well. My old teams partner is the best peach in Texas. Knowing the matchup is one thing. Being ***** nonetheless is another.
@pastaboy-brawls not that deep. Once other chr. mains figure out what to do, it wont be pretty.
I still don't believe a character ***** Diddy, nonetheless Peach...I destroyed Snakeee's Peach and he plays with NL pretty consistently and ADHD in tournament so he knows how to play against Diddys...Oh snap, I must be a "Peach Killer." Seriously though, I can't wait to see what Kos-Mos does to warrant Peach to be a Diddy counter, the way I see it, Peach has no tools against Diddy.
Le_THieN
Smash Lord
The vast majority of you might fall in the camp that believes that Diddy is an impregnable workhorse of various, near-even match-ups, but the cold hard truth here is that times are a-changin'. part of the idea behind the evolution of a character's meta-game is that we commit endless hours to this game day in and day out in order to see if we can work through tough match-ups and push the margin of favor into our respective column. The problem here is that everyone else is doing the exact same thing; Diddy Kong, in particular, has a pretty big target on his forehead because he's currently being touted as one of the characters to beat in tournament.
What exactly do you not find feasible about the idea that the first impressions you had about a certain match-up ended up not holding up in the long run? You'll also have to excuse me for questioning exactly how extensive or accurate your knowledge of the Peach match-up is, especially if you're making head-scratching statements like, "Peach has no tools against Diddy." No offense, but the fact that Snakeee's Peach is even something worth mentioning is news to me - as far as I know, he has never beaten either Wyatt or Randall in tournament with Peach.
Also, our (Southern Diddy mains) collective testament to how good KOS-MOS is isn't based solely on the fact that he ***** our mains; he, um, ***** nearly everyone in our region.
It's funny, that; we Oklahoman Smashers thought it was always somewhat detrimental to our state's overall level of match-up experience that a Peach, Pokemon Trainer and Diddy Kong main were all playing musical chairs for the number one slot on our Power Rankings. That is, of course, before we started traveling. Both KOS-MOS and Chuck Nasty find it humorous that I'm always begging them to come over so that I can play them nonstop and build up that precious, ever-elusive match-up experience, saying, "What does it matter, anyway? I'm the only PT/Peach main that you'll ever play against."
LOL. Now the entire state of Texas is in a rioting frenzy because one random Peach player from Oklahoma figured out Brawl and decided he wanted to rewrite entire match-ups all by his lonesome. The best part is no one has any clue what to do.
I think it's a fair statement for me to say that we, as Diddy mains, should be prepared to have more than a handful of left-field shakeups as match-ups gradually and inevitably change.
I'm sorting through three hours of footage I recorded with KOS-MOS earlier tonight. I lost about 90% of the matches. Endeavors like this are sort of a lose-lose situation, because sometimes people evaluating said video evidence will often retort with, "Well, you made a lot of obvious mistakes," or something to that effect, but I guess how good you all think of KM depends on how much stock you guys put into my own skill.
Either way, check back tomorrow.
Your right, I don't know the Peach matchup, I've only played against Peachkid in doubles a few times and once in singles, as well as Snakeee once in singles, all recently...I asked Snakeee why he went Peach and he said he beat ADHD (Who is Randall?) in tournament with Peach, which is why he "thought" Peach countered Diddy...Although, after round 1, he promptly switched to ZSS, but I played friendlies with his Peach afterwards, where he gave up the notion that Peach counters Diddy...
I asked JJ Wolf to name one tactic/move/strategy that Peach has over Diddy and I get a blank stare followed by "Peach can float better than Diddy, Peach looks better in pink than Diddy, Peach is better at not killing than Diddy," so until I see otherwise, statements like Peach ***** Diddy makes me scratch my head. What does Kos-Mos do that warrants Peach to be a Diddy counter?<-------
The fact that he ***** nearly everyone in your region makes me believe that he is just a better player and not just because Peach counters Diddy...I'm sure his Peach is extremely good, but that is based on the players skill rather than Peach'es ability as a character.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to those videos.
Dekar173
Justice Man
Hanson are you going to Swat?
Le_THieN
Smash Lord
Most likely, yes. I have to support my San Angelo boys in their first tournament-hosting endeavor. =)
Also, I have most of Peach match-up clips cut up, so I'll start queuing them up before I leave for a Smash-fest here in an hour or so. I'm hopin' to get in some recorded matches with the mysterious PT main in our state as well.
Also, I have most of Peach match-up clips cut up, so I'll start queuing them up before I leave for a Smash-fest here in an hour or so. I'm hopin' to get in some recorded matches with the mysterious PT main in our state as well.
I don't really know what to say about the Peach match-up since Peach mains are so far beyond rare. I think I did see Kos-Mos at No Koast however and it goes w/o saying that this kid knows how to play. He also spends the majority of the matches (at least the ones I saw) hovering, so that eliminates a lot (not all) of Diddy's banana game. Which of course forces us to go into the air which we all know isn't Diddy's forte because he is sub-par there at best.Your right, I don't know the Peach matchup, I've only played against Peachkid in doubles a few times and once in singles, as well as Snakeee once in singles, all recently...I asked Snakeee why he went Peach and he said he beat ADHD (Who is Randall?) in tournament with Peach, which is why he "thought" Peach countered Diddy...Although, after round 1, he promptly switched to ZSS, but I played friendlies with his Peach afterwards, where he gave up the notion that Peach counters Diddy...
I asked JJ Wolf to name one tactic/move/strategy that Peach has over Diddy and I get a blank stare followed by "Peach can float better than Diddy, Peach looks better in pink than Diddy, Peach is better at not killing than Diddy," so until I see otherwise, statements like Peach ***** Diddy makes me scratch my head. What does Kos-Mos do that warrants Peach to be a Diddy counter?<-------
The fact that he ***** nearly everyone in your region makes me believe that he is just a better player and not just because Peach counters Diddy...I'm sure his Peach is extremely good, but that is based on the players skill rather than Peach'es ability as a character.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to those videos.
I've been wanting to see these clips for a while now. xD
Kaptain Kong
Smash Lord
i play a peach player on wifi and its pretty hard to gimp them or use bananas
i like to throw in some peanuts and usmashes if they are floating a lot
i usually win, though i rarely play them offline
i like to throw in some peanuts and usmashes if they are floating a lot
i usually win, though i rarely play them offline
KOS-MOS
Smash Journeyman
It doesn't matter if they float, Diddy's Fair>Peach's Aerials. Also, the float doesn't last forever so you can just wait it out. Use Peanuts/Bananas for long range and Fair/Bananas for short range to knock her out of the air. If she tries to Fair->AA, you can just shield grab the Fair and reset the distance. Peach doesn't have a good approach and she isn't going to outcamp Diddy, Bananas>>Turnips. Diddy's banana game is present when they land, which is where you get your combos, and you can SH Banana throws...Diddy deals damage better, KOs better and lives longer, what more could you ask for...
Coyn3Masta
Smash Journeyman
all i know is the kos-mos's peach is the best i've seen, i saw him streamed on whobo... his peach was mad sexy <_>