What Would Get You Guys Interested in Project M?

[JKJ]

One thing that really bothers me about Project: M is that overall, certain character designs and move designs/properties feel anti-smash like. For instance, Zelda's side-b. This move literally promotes camping, and that's about all it does. I dont even find it to be that good, it just think that its a poor design. Similarly, Zero Suit's Dair is just an auto follow up, and I hate it. Ike's never having to commit to anything as a strong, slow character who can inexplicably fly across the stage annoys the **** out of me. I enter P:M tournaments whenever it's convenient and at a melee event already, but I never practice the game and I am still able to place well, usually top 8, because most P:M exclusive players have no mental game whatsoever. I just outplay them as people because they suck. The game is young and maybe its playerbase will improve, maybe 3.0 will do away with that awful one frame physics delay, and maybe future character balance patches will fix these abysmal character designs that plague the game right now. But until then, I have a wonderfully polished, extremely engaging and difficult game that I can and will be playing instead of P:M.

 

[Krynxe]

^Couldn't have put it better myself.
P:M is incredibly overhyped, and people fail to remember that it's still a mod of brawl - it isn't melee. It's also urgs me that they prioritized mewtwo over 3 of the original smash cast, and how the dev team seem to give characters attributes/abilities based on what they simply think 'would be cool' rather than something that fits that character and the over-all flow of the game. It also suffers from "everyone needs sick COMBOOEZ and hella APPROACH OPSHUNS and able to zone with their PROJECTYLEZ but chaingrabbing is UNFAAAAAIR" so it really just feels like what brawl would be if sakurai was some sort of fox-only-final-destination, yoshi hating, kirby hating, samus hating, marvel vs capcom fanboy.

 

[Rarik]

Of course P:M isn't melee, the point is to be a spiritual successor to melee, the sequel we (Melee fans) wanted out of brawl rather than what we got. Go back in time and change brawl to be P:M 3.0 and I'm almost entirely sure that Melee would be dead right now. Feel free to disagree with that point, but that's how I feel. Fortunately/Unfortunately, brawl sucked, Melee survived, and the melee community is now an incredibly passionate and stubborn community that is constantly pushing Melee to its limits and then beyond, and most of us are glad for that. However Brawl still sucks and it'd be cool if we had a proper sequel.

Kirby/Samus/Yoshi will be in 3.0 (releasing Dec 9th) along with Mewtwo/Roy/ICs/Olimar. Sorry to hear you're incredibly salty about Mewtwo getting announced before them, as regardless of who got prioritized more they're all being released at the same time.

Not going to respond to the auto-combo criticism as that's been addressed a bazillion times already in this thread. Projectiles are kinda supposed to zone unless they're fox lasers. Like seriously, tell me a projectile in Melee that isn't able to zone other than Fox's. I can't think of any. Ivy's projectile is too good however, definitely agree there.

Also, wat, most of the characters in P:M have some form of chain grab or tech chase even if it's only on fast-fallers. Snake has an amazing chaingrab that often leads into him sticking a c4 onto you. Charizard and Metaknight have techchases that are just as good as Sheik's and Falcon's. Nearly all of the melee chaingrabs still exist (Luigi, Mario has Doc's, GnW, DK, Zelda, Marth, Pikachu, Peach, Fox, Ganon, Mewtwo, Roy, Ness, Sheik's is nerfed but still works on poor DI and can still tech chase as well as having an improved B-throw) and some were improved. IC's will still have a great grab game even without brawl handoffs and wobbling. So, seriously, where are you getting the mentality of P:M hates chaingrabs from? Other than Sheik's dthrow being changed to being closer to PAL dthrow (it's not as bad but it's certainly not as abusive as NTSC dthrow) I can't think of any chaingrabs that were gotten rid of or nerfed that weren't first introduced into P:M and proven to be poor design or just way too strong. (Link had a chain-grab for days when he could grab mid air with the chain rather than just his hand)

 

[JKJ]

I believe that many things in Project: M are simply poor design which I hope will be weeded out in future updates.
I dont think it hates chaingrabs, I think it likes them too much. Also its not the autocombos that bother me, its the removal of a certain level of creative license in comboing. In melee, every junction in a combo had at least 5 different options that could be used to extend it, each with varied results; there was no "best option" in any given situation. In P:M, there's almost always a best option in combos which leads to them all feeling very linear and not "flowchart-esque" as they do in melee. That's how i feel about the "autocombos" argument.

 

[JOS.fm]

Im gonna answer the question as stated in the thread title

Metroid n00dz

and MF Doom on every stage bgm

 

[Mew2King]

Yo guys, two things I want to say:


1) I'm having a Reddit AMA HERE for maybe 12 more days or so (more or less) -http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/1rluq5/ctemp_mew2kings_ama_and_lots_of_other_stuff/

A lot of stuff is there about a lot of different things, including Indie games that my friends and I are making, so please check it out

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2) Isai will be streaming every Tuesday night on the www.twitch.tv/clashtournamentschannel for Super Smash Bros. 64. He will play other players online, with ~500+ people watching at a time each Tuesday night. We just started this recently.

To support Isai, CT, or myself (mostly supports Isai though tbh), tune in every Tuesday night, and tell your friends (esp if they like Smash 64).

more info can be found here - http://smashboards.com/threads/twit...l-smash-bros-page.317976/page-5#post-15970673

any future changes will be posted here: www.facebook.com/clashtournaments and/or here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/week...ght-11-26-8pm-pst.341866/page-3#post-15970541

Lastly, we will eventually upload a lot of the good matches on this channel:www.youtube.com/clashtournaments

(me/chibo/isai still have to talk about that last part though).

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

It's also urgs me that they prioritized mewtwo over 3 of the original smash cast

what in the flying **** are you talking about lmao

 

[Fox Hater]

PM is a good game overall but the decisions made by the developers in most of the brawl characters shows us that they dont understand melee at all.

If you play with the melee characters only the game is at its best a rebalanced version of melee, which is great! with a few exceptions: Like zelda's guarantee bair or up air after throw, mario's down throw angle, ness PK thunder has no recovery he can block after it and a few other gimmicks, but hey we can survive with them.

But dont get me to talk about the BS half of the brawl cast has, Definitely a flawed attept to attract brawl players but in doing so, hurting the mix up/skill, spacing and risk reward melee characters bring to the table.

Most of the brawl cast will ( in the hands of pro players ) come back to the stage, the just dont feel threatened because their ability to comeback is almost guarantee (Pit, MK, Ivysaur, Rob etc etc. just to name a few) unless you are a scrub coming back to the stage

Other are just flowchart, high priority autocombo or approach machines that requires less spacing, low risk and high reward. Its like developers were so frustrated they could not win with them, that they kept buffing the character ( Rob comes in mind: his aerials are BS, with a lot of priority, range etc, it has a projectile than can almost edge guard any melee character with his laser and the list goes on and on.) Luckly JC is not a pro player with the mentality to exploit what I mentioned above but someone will hehe.

Ivysaur: I mean what in god's name were they thinking when they developed this character. He has a projectile than when in block the stun is so bad you have to roll, if you get hit even if you mash DI you can't get out of it, REALLY. Also he has another projectile that stuns you in the ground and the higher the % the more you are stunned. He can always come back to the stage, unless you are a character that can float or have a great projectile and can kill him out of the stage. And dont get me started with Solar beam WTH.

Seriously! Name one melee character in Melee that had the ability to charge automatically a beam or a fart that can almost kill a character and if killed of the stage, the charge remains with HIM! So now I have to deal with the possibility of being randoom'd by some scrub mashing buttons to win -.-
But hey PM is supposed to be the spiritual succesor of melee Dee dee deeeeeee!

and believe me, the list goes on and on with the brawl characters. But in PM developers defense, the game is just starting to get more exposure, and they will have to act and balance removed some BS move that require no skill to use. They have also made some good desings on new characters, like Snake, Lucas, Diddy Kong, Dedede, Charizard.

I like how Bowser ended up, his super armor is fun to use, not in an unfair way opens up great opportunities for mix up and can be punished.

Fix the BS mentioned above and anyother that I did not mentioned but all melee players feel when they play the game, and absolutely you will see more melee players engaged with the game.

I will support the game in my smash scene in my country and the community appreciates the effort put in the game.

Here I am hoping 3.0 already addresses some of the issues mentioned above.

Happy Smashing!

 

[The_NZA]

Change the c-stick input for special attack. Makes Ness a joke

I just want to point out how silly it is. Good luck doing Instant DJC dairs without a Cstick. Or Magnet DJC bairs. Or a ton of other ****.

 

[dRevan64]

Most of the brawl cast will ( in the hands of pro players ) come back to the stage, the just dont feel threatened because their ability to comeback is almost guarantee (Pit, MK, Ivysaur, Rob etc etc. just to name a few) unless you are a scrub coming back to the stage

x1000. I don't know about anyone else but I miss gimping being a viable option to get kills. People should be punished for being careless at the ledge and it feels like an enormous portion of the cast very simply isn't, it's like PM's created a roster of jigglypuffs.

This is not exclusively an issue for brawl characters incidentally, Zelda, and to a lesser extent Mario both benefit from the magic wand of ungimpability.

 

[trash?]

Change the c-stick input for special attack. Makes Ness a joke

I'm going to assume none of you have actually played project m before, because the alternate assumption is infinitely more depressing

especially that marvel ****, like god damn have you even paid attention to half the complaints this usually gets

 

[Scarlet Bean]

I just want to point out how silly it is. Good luck doing Instant DJC dairs without a Cstick. Or Magnet DJC bairs. Or a ton of other ****.

Guess people can't take suggestions these days

 

[The_NZA]

Guess people can't take suggestions these days

You didn't make a suggestion.

You responded to me pointing out how Ness is amongst a class of new technical characters for melee pros to master by suggesting he's jokeworthy easy (I believe you even used the word joke) when you make cstick the special button. If you had worded it as a suggestion in a topic about alternate control schemes, you would have gotten a different response.

 

[Scarlet Bean]

You didn't make a suggestion.

You responded to me pointing out how Ness is amongst a class of new technical characters for melee pros to master by suggesting he's jokeworthy easy (I believe you even used the word joke) when you make cstick the special button. If you had worded it as a suggestion in a topic about alternate control schemes, you would have gotten a different response.

Next time, I'll think twice before writing something down.

 

[Johnknight1]

P:M is incredibly overhyped, and people fail to remember that it's still a mod of brawl - it isn't melee.

Counter-Strike is still a mod of Half-Life - it isn't a real game.

Maybe you should read the "about" section on Project M's website.

Project M is a community-made mod of Brawl inspired by Super Smash Bros. Melee's gameplay designed to add rich, technical gameplay to a balanced cast of characters while additionally enhancing the speed of play.

If it was Melee 2.0, it would be called Melee 2.0, or it would be made using some Melee coding in its' own game.

It's also urgs me that they prioritized mewtwo over 3 of the original smash cast,

Obviously you did not see the latest trailer, because your opinion is factually wrong (over 2 weeks after its' release) in every way possible. On top of that, the 5 Brawl characters left out until 3.0 have been worked on longer than either Mewtwo or Roy.

Also, programming characters like the Ice Climbers and Olimar would require more work anyways. Why would they wait to release something they finished for something that takes longer to finish=??? That makes no sense (although that isn't an issue).

and how the dev team seem to give characters attributes/abilities based on what they simply think 'would be cool' rather than something that fits that character and the over-all flow of the game.

You didn't use any examples, so no one has any idea what you mean.

They generally do things that fit characters, roughly about as much as Melee (Ganondorf, lol). For instance, Mewtwo actually uses more psychic moves (tail whip, lol). Kirby actually uses some of his Smash 64 offense (and he isn't garbage). Ness' psychic moves feel more psychic.

 

[Krynxe]

Counter-Strike is still a mod of Half-Life - it isn't a real game.

lmao I don't remember saying "p:m is still a mod of brawl - it isn't a real game". If you wanna quote me correctly instead of using fallacious claims, the correct comparison would be "counter-strike is still a mod of half-life - but it isn't half-life" which I completely agree with.

If it was Melee 2.0, it would be called Melee 2.0, or it would be made using some Melee coding in its' own game.

They utilized a lot of Melee's coding and character data. Also, my argument was that it's NOT melee, and you're supporting my claim.

Obviously you did not see the latest trailer, because your opinion is factually wrong (over 2 weeks after its' release) in every way possible. On top of that, the 5 Brawl characters left out until 3.0 have been worked on longer than either Mewtwo or Roy.

Factually wrong, huh? That trailer was released over a month after they announced mewtwo. Thus, they prioritized mewtwo over 3 original characters. This was not really supposed to be the selling point of my argument, it was an off-handed comment that I obviously made into a huge hyperbole to make a silly jab at the p:m dev team, not to be taken too seriously. And yes, I agree with what you say about ICs/Olimar. Also, 5 brawl

You didn't use any examples, so no one has any idea what you mean.

I thought my next sentence covered it well enough in a broad sense, but i can give examples if you want. We have to be mindful that smash is sakurai's creation, so the way characters are intended to play and feel must relate to the way they do in the smash series. I'm not saying the p:m crew should be "doing what sakurai wouldn't wanted", i'm saying the characters should be comparable to properly fit the flow of the game
- ROB's up/forward-b (read:hella APPROACH OPSHUNS) - a character intended to be relatively bulky, they completely went against them giving him an approach that's obviously inspired by air-dashers (not fitting the flow of the game) and is very uncharacteristically to ROB considering his slow and zoney playstyle in brawl.
- ZSS's dair (read: sick COMBOOEZ) - does this really need explanation? Completely against the flow of the game, just screams "hey this would be cool" to me rather than having the intent of fixing her bad dair from brawl. I can't think of any fighting game nowadays that wants to foster the idea of pushing the same button over and over again to do a combo.
- Zelda/ness/lucas/ivysaur/many other forward-b's (read: zone with their PROJECTYLEZ) - Zelda's is completely unfitting, turning a once poke/spacing oriented character into a zoning/walling oriented character. Ness/Lucas just a few examples of characters who once had to put thought into using these moves, they are now zoning AND approach options while being very (but not completely) safe.

not to mention the fact that they just removed the lag or added cancels to like 100 moves just because they thought it'd be cool if 'character x could do attack y in a combo'. Everything seems over-centralized around this idea, which is why I made the comparison to marvel

Projectiles are kinda supposed to zone unless they're fox lasers. Like seriously, tell me a projectile in Melee that isn't able to zone other than Fox's. I can't think of any. Ivy's projectile is too good however, definitely agree there.

Yeah, good luck trying to zone with din's fire, ness' pk fire, luigi's fireball, g&w's bacon, bowser's fire, or pichu/pikachu's thunderjolt without being punished. You can use many of these moves once successfully at a time, but being able to zone? No. But zoning wasn't enough the for p:m team, they also have to be combo attacks, approach options, etc etc. Essentially, everyone with a projectile suddenly has melee Falco lasers, lol

Also, wat, most of the characters in P:M have some form of chain grab or tech chase even if it's only on fast-fallers.

Definitely my mistake there, I meant guaranteed chaingrabs but I failed to clarify. Mostly referring to the ones from brawl, such as dedede getting his chaingrab removed (making him a pretty bad character), brawl falcos, melee ntsc sheik, etc etc. P:m definitely promotes tech-reads, a little too much so but that's completely an opinion. It's also a bit silly that they help make fast-fallers worse by giving uthrow chains to a bunch of characters like Ike without really doing enough for the fast-fallers.

In general, people be taking my original post way too seriously >_<;

 

[blerb]

- ROB's up/forward-b (read:hella APPROACH OPSHUNS) - a character intended to be relatively bulky, they completely went against them giving him an approach that's obviously inspired by air-dashers (not fitting the flow of the game) and is very uncharacteristically to ROB considering his slow and zoney playstyle in brawl.

Tell me, purely from a game balance standpoint, what exactly is wrong with giving ROB an approach option with his UpB/SideB? Other than your personal opinion on how ROB "should be" as a character.

 

[Krynxe]

i never said anything about game balance

but, they could have easily achieved 'game balance' without changing ROB stylistically like they did

probably gonna stop posting here now. you all can feel free to disagree with me all you want and continue the topic, i just wanted to justify my opinion a bit. I really only wanted to give some of my thoughts, don't wanna spend my time arguing with everyone over opinions

 

[Scarlet Bean]

i never said anything about game balance

but, they could have easily achieved 'game balance' without changing ROB stylistically like they did

probably gonna stop posting here now. you all can feel free to disagree with me all you want and continue the topic, i just wanted to justify my opinion a bit. I really only wanted to give some of my thoughts, don't wanna spend my time arguing with everyone over opinions

Now you know how I feel

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

with a few exceptions: Like zelda's guarantee bair or up air after throw!

yhea melee has no autocombos from throw unlike this ****ing scrubfest. its all improvisation in beautiful melee autocombos doesnt exist.

 

[blerb]

i never said anything about game balance

but, they could have easily achieved 'game balance' without changing ROB stylistically like they did

probably gonna stop posting here now. you all can feel free to disagree with me all you want and continue the topic, i just wanted to justify my opinion a bit. I really only wanted to give some of my thoughts, don't wanna spend my time arguing with everyone over opinions

Didn't mean to be rude, I was legitimately asking lol

You're essentially saying you prefer Brawl ROB, and wish they would have made him similar in PM? I guess they could have just balanced him to PM and kept his moves, but the point of the project is to design the characters around the Melee engine (paraphrasing heavily here)

I dunno I guess it just comes down to preference

 

[Sixth-Sense]

for anybody who doesn't know, they finally have melee shields!

 

[JKJ]

but not light shields :/


Ehhhhh

 

[Sixth-Sense]

but not light shields :/


Ehhhhh

yeah kinda sucks, and the 1-dead frame thing is still there

the good thing though is that melee shield pushback is back, and all the characters are out, that just means major releases are probably not gonna be once a year, i think they might have one more release before going gold, hopefully by the next release PM feels like melee

 

[Engo]

I always feel uncomfortable when certain moves send a character in a trajectory that is perfectly designed to combo into one of his good moves. Sometimes it looks so unnatural and forced compared to Melee.

 

[The_NZA]

I always feel uncomfortable when certain moves send a character in a trajectory that is perfectly designed to combo into one of his good moves. Sometimes it looks so unnatural and forced compared to Melee.

Yeah, i think Marth's fair is pretty silly too.

 

[Soft Serve]

Yeah, i think Marth's fair is pretty silly too.

Or Falcon's anything>knee.

 

[The_NZA]

Or Falcon's anything>knee.

or shiek's anything>claw

 

[NWRL]

Even though they're missing light shielding, the entire game feels much more fluid and natural. The new (old?) shields are great and the balance changes are pretty nice as well.

Also turbo mode is the greatest thing that's been added to a Smash game.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

Even though they're missing light shielding, the entire game feels much more fluid and natural. The new (old?) shields are great and the balance changes are pretty nice as well.

Also turbo mode is the greatest thing that's been added to a Smash game.

i back this up 132%

 

[The_NZA]

Can someone go into specifics on how shields changed?

 

[Shadic]

Pushback for the shielder and attack both perfectly match Melee.

 

[The_NZA]

Pushback for the shielder and attack both perfectly match Melee.

I'm more curious what that means in the difference. Does that mean there is less push back now? Does that also mean there is overall, less shield damage?

 

[Sixth-Sense]

I'm more curious what that means in the difference. Does that mean there is less push back now? Does that also mean there is overall, less shield damage?

its what it says, apart from light shielding, the normal shield in PM is now exactly the same as the shield in melee

 

[Strong Badam]

I'm more curious what that means in the difference. Does that mean there is less push back now? Does that also mean there is overall, less shield damage?

In most cases, there is less pushback. Old formula vs new formula converges at 23 damage IIRC, but there's also the fact that shield pushback that's suffered from the attacker is significantly higher to consider as well.
Less shield damage by % on most moves.
Here's an example: Let's say a move did 10 damage before. Due to the way shield damage is calculated, this does 7 shield damage to a shield (same as melee). In 2.6, this would be 7/50 = 14% of a full shield. In 3.0/Melee, this would be 7/60 = 11.67% of a full shield.

Can someone please fix the goddamn thread title wtf "Inetrested" it bugs me every time

 

[The_NZA]

In most cases, there is less pushback. Old formula vs new formula converges at 23 damage IIRC, but there's also the fact that shield pushback that's suffered from the attacker is significantly higher to consider as well.
Less shield damage by % on most moves.
Here's an example: Let's say a move did 10 damage before. Due to the way shield damage is calculated, this does 7 shield damage to a shield (same as melee). In 2.6, this would be 7/50 = 14% of a full shield. In 3.0/Melee, this would be 7/60 = 11.67% of a full shield.

Can someone please fix the goddamn thread title wtf "Inetrested" it bugs me every time

So basically, in 3.0 the shielding opponent gets sent less far but the attacker gets pushed back more?

 

[MookieRah]

Reading through bits and pieces of this thread I've seen a lot of reoccurring arguments that I think are somewhat valid, and the PM team should probably address at some point; however, I see a lot of stuff that is simply ridiculous. People are treating P:M as if it was being ran by a company, and they treat it as such. They apply the same kind of hate they would when they hear about a major company doing something they didn't like. Look, these guys are just trying to make a cool mod on their spare time for you, and others that loved melee and wanted a new melee'esque game. Cut them some slack.

This is a good example of something that I find very frustrating to read:

It's also urgs me that they prioritized mewtwo over 3 of the original smash cast

I don't really think this is entirely true at all. There were reasons why the IC's, Yoshi, and Samus were not added in sooner that *I think* had a lot to do with coding to get them how the devs wanted. They had to wait until the crazy mod wizards found a way to allow them to work on those characters before releasing them, because otherwise you would be likely complaining about how they didn't feel melee enough.

Secondly, people are doing this on their own time and on their own terms. If the people involved really felt like working on Mewtwo, well they worked on Mewtwo. They aren't being paid, so they are trying to enjoy making this as much as possible. So even if it was the priority to make an awesome Mewtwo (it wasn't btw) you can't really fault them because they are putting in a ton of work.

and how the dev team seem to give characters attributes/abilities based on what they simply think 'would be cool' rather than something that fits that character and the over-all flow of the game.

This is entirely subjective. You may not feel that it is good for the over-all flow, but other people beg to differ. Whenever you are redesigning moves and characters to be more unique, of course some people are going to think that it doesn't fit. It's different, and that is the entire point! I don't think people want all the Brawl characters to basically function like clones of the melee cast.

I also don't like the stupid "marvel vs capcom fanboy" statement. That's just stupid.

It also suffers from "everyone needs sick COMBOOEZ and hella APPROACH OPSHUNS and able to zone with their PROJECTYLEZ but chaingrabbing is UNFAAAAAIR" so it really just feels like what brawl would be if sakurai was some sort of fox-only-final-destination, yoshi hating, kirby hating, samus hating, marvel vs capcom fanboy.

This is the only thing that you said that may have some truth, but at the same time I kinda feel that you are just riding on the ideas that were previously mentioned in this thread at this point. I think that, because the game is being designed by players of the game, it's very easy to think of new character designs as "this character needs an approach option" or "hmmm, we need to have some moves that flow well into combos together." I do think that the P:M team is keeping up with this thread and others where people have noted that some of the things with new characters feel too obvious, and I will bet that they will address this at some point, BUT you have to keep in mind that this is a very subtle thing that would be hard to implement and would take time to get it right.

And no, Krynxe, you aren't the only person saying stuff that is frustrating in this thread. There are tons. You just happen to be the most recent example.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

- ROB's up/forward-b (read:hella APPROACH OPSHUNS) - a character intended to be relatively bulky, they completely went against them giving him an approach that's obviously inspired by air-dashers (not fitting the flow of the game) and is very uncharacteristically to ROB considering his slow and zoney playstyle in brawl.

and adopting the playstyle from brawl is a good idea

so it really just feels like what brawl would be if sakurai was some sort of fox-only-final-destination, yoshi hating, kirby hating, samus hating, marvel vs capcom fanboy.

you spent all this time flaming PM with no basis and you didn't even bother to look up that they didn't add those characters until late for technical reasons

 

[NWRL]

Can someone explain how something is anti-Smash? Seems like a nebulous term that is being thrown around as fact.

 

[Shadic]

If it's not in Melee, it's anti-Smash.