What Would Get You Guys Interested in Project M?

[K.Louis]

What's funny is Melee players are doing the same thing to P:M players as the actual FGC does to Melee players. My personal opinion is that Melee and P:M are fantastic games but both are pretty flawed from a balance perspective, but P:M is working on that.

P:M seems like it's a Smash game made by people who play traditional (real ) fighting games, instead of making a character with a solid set of moves they seem to be pushing characters into niches, which is kind of cool if you're like me and you prefer traditional fighters. I can definitely see how Melee players wouldn't like it though, but anyway.

Just my 2c.

EDIT: Also the elitism from Melee fans about this is pretty sad, yeah we know you're really good at Melee and you don't want to play another game, and that's fine. But know that your game will NEVER have an EVO 04 moment if you act like a condescending **** to others and scare off potential newcomers.

Disagree with almost everything in this post. Stream monsters dislike Smash/Melee because there's 3 buttons and no health bars. There are actual design complaints in this thread but luckily as you said P:M's still a work in progress. And while some newer fighting games like AE have more linear character designs, there are still traditional fighting games like MvC2 where the top/high tier characters have a lot of different playstyles you can use or just make up based off of your personal playstyle and team building (i.e. Runaway/Zoning/Rushdown Storm, Trap/Chip/Zoning Sentinel). Most Melee players also play other fighting games too but I can definitely see how someone's who's never been to a tournament you can make a generalization like that.

As for community elitism everybody's super friendly IRL (which is why everyone who "retires" Melee comes back) but people screw around online and the online community isn't the same as the real community (even then people who ask always get help), and a thread like this is bound to promote annoyed responses, especially since there are vocal PM players who think everybody should play PM and have Melee die off. Can you imagine if someone posted a "What Would Get You Guys to play Melee" thread on the Brawl boards, or a "What Would Get You Guys to play Brawl" thread on the PM boards? This thread is a lot less disastrous than any of the other two threads would've been.

Wombo Combo's got twice the views of Evo Moment 37 and other communities actually use that phrase btw, and we've got M2K vs Shiz but that's besides the point.

 

[slomo431]

What's funny is Melee players are doing the same thing to P:M players as the actual FGC does to Melee players. My personal opinion is that Melee and P:M are fantastic games but both are pretty flawed from a balance perspective, but P:M is working on that.

P:M seems like it's a Smash game made by people who play traditional (real ) fighting games, instead of making a character with a solid set of moves they seem to be pushing characters into niches, which is kind of cool if you're like me and you prefer traditional fighters. I can definitely see how Melee players wouldn't like it though, but anyway.

Just my 2c.

EDIT: Also the elitism from Melee fans about this is pretty sad, yeah we know you're really good at Melee and you don't want to play another game, and that's fine. But know that your game will NEVER have an EVO 04 moment if you act like a condescending **** to others and scare off potential newcomers.

K.Louis already said a lot but I'd like to add that if you think all or even most of the elitism is only coming from Melee you're sadly mistaken. You're just in a thread on the Melee boards basically inviting Melee players to bring up their remaining grievances with the game. Quite frankly your post shows quite a bit of ignorance about the Smash scene in general. The PM boards have their own threads that are basically anti-Melee circlejerks where anything from a Melee player gets dismissed as "BCUZ MELEE" by vocal PM fans. The boards everywhere just tend to have a lot of trolling even from people who are incredibly nice in real life, which is one reason why I didn't come here for years until EVO and especially the documentary brought me back for the past few months. There's a reason why I posted earlier that a welcoming community like the one I encountered for Melee would get me into PM. It's nothing like what you seem to think it is.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

btw for any samus/yoshi/ice climbers out there who wanna see the future of smash take a look at this, i really recommend it!

PM IS THE FUTURE

 

[NWRL]

btw for any samus/yoshi/ice climbers out there who wanna see the future of smash take a look at this, i really recommend it!

PM IS THE FUTURE

That Samus

 

[Jockmaster]

What's funny is Melee players are doing the same thing to P:M players as the actual FGC does to Melee players. My personal opinion is that Melee and P:M are fantastic games but both are pretty flawed from a balance perspective, but P:M is working on that.

P:M seems like it's a Smash game made by people who play traditional (real ) fighting games, instead of making a character with a solid set of moves they seem to be pushing characters into niches, which is kind of cool if you're like me and you prefer traditional fighters. I can definitely see how Melee players wouldn't like it though, but anyway.

Just my 2c.

EDIT: Also the elitism from Melee fans about this is pretty sad, yeah we know you're really good at Melee and you don't want to play another game, and that's fine. But know that your game will NEVER have an EVO 04 moment if you act like a condescending **** to others and scare off potential newcomers.

This false victim complex is amazing

The "elitism" you are sensing is completely contrived, a product of inherently feeling like you are inferior simply from lack of confidence in the legitimacy of your preferred game. The melee players are simply saying that P:M doesn't feel right to them, at least not right enough to ever come close to being on the same level of competitive play. You see, there is a certain stigma that comes with a game like P:M. This sort of game can become very over-designed, to the point where it loses the flavor that made its spiritual predecessor so much fun to begin with. P:M has become its own beast. It does share mechanics with Melee, but it is very, very different.

Also, I don't understand your parallel between P:M and "traditional fighting games", it seems like you are throwing that word out there to give P:M some sort of credential


And how the **** do you come to make the statement that Melee players scare off new players?...

 

[NWRL]

This false victim complex is amazing

The "elitism" you are sensing is completely contrived, a product of inherently feeling like you are inferior simply from lack of confidence in the legitimacy of your preferred game. The melee players are simply saying that P:M doesn't feel right to them, at least not right enough to ever come close to being on the same level of competitive play. You see, there is a certain stigma that comes with a game like P:M. This sort of game can become very over-designed, to the point where it loses the flavor that made its spiritual predecessor so much fun to begin with. P:M has become its own beast. It does share mechanics with Melee, but it is very, very different.

Also, I don't understand your parallel between P:M and "traditional fighting games", it seems like you are throwing that word out there to give P:M some sort of credential


And how the **** do you come to make the statement that Melee players scare off new players?...

Do you not read some of the responses that this thread has gotten? A lot of posters have legitimate criticisms and that's perfectly fine, if you don't like the game that's your business, but there's no need to insult the game for any reason other than "it's not melee" which a LOT of posts are basically stating.

"I'd rather have a lobotomy than play P:M etc"

"People who are only good at P:M are frauds"


Traditional fighting games have moves that are for a specific purpose, (shoryukens for anti-air, EWGF for a quick launcher into a juggle, etc etc) with P:M I see a lot of moves that seem to work for a certain purpose and do it well, whereas in Melee moves had some purpose but a lot of the times you had to wing it and find ways for certain moves to work because of the awkward hitboxes or properties. I'm not giving P:M any credentials based on that, it's just something I've noticed and can appreciate, being someone who plays Tekken and Street Figher mostly.

 

[SAUS]

Traditional fighting games have moves that are for a specific purpose, (shoryukens for anti-air, EWGF for a quick launcher into a juggle, etc etc) with P:M I see a lot of moves that seem to work for a certain purpose and do it well, whereas in Melee moves had some purpose but a lot of the times you had to wing it and find ways for certain moves to work because of the awkward hitboxes or properties. I'm not giving P:M any credentials based on that, it's just something I've noticed and can appreciate, being someone who plays Tekken and Street Figher mostly.

That's one of the things that's awesome about melee. I like that so much of the game was just up to the players. I feel like traditional fighting games tend to put the combos they want into the game and make it so all the moves do something obvious and specific, but well. In melee, each move has a ton of uses and a lot of them are not obvious. Basically, I dislike that the developers have so much influence on how the game is played - not how the game works, but how it's played.

I think I appreciate P:M more now than I did before, but I still haven't played it (no one I know plays it, so meh). I think if I did play it, I'd find it fun, but it would just make me want to play melee. Losing to some of the new characters stuff would probably also annoy the hell out of me, but I guess that would fade after I learn the game more.

If brawl was what P:M is in the first place, though, I think the melee players would have actually switched to brawl and melee would have died.

 

[GHNeko]

That's one of the things that's awesome about melee. I like that so much of the game was just up to the players. I feel like traditional fighting games tend to put the combos they want into the game and make it so all the moves do something obvious and specific, but well. In melee, each move has a ton of uses and a lot of them are not obvious. Basically, I dislike that the developers have so much influence on how the game is played - not how the game works, but how it's played.

You do realize this is how designing, developing, and playtesting competitive games work, pre-final release right?

• Internal players playtest the game, find out what **** works and doesnt work and why/how, abuse tools given to them, attempt to break the game/develop broken strats
• Feedback is relayed and evidence.zip is given back to the developers
• Developers adjust game to align with their final goals and give back newly tweaked game to playtesters
• Repeat until launch

Then the game gets in the hands of the players and is considered a whole new ballgame at that point. The point behind the demos/open beta/early access is that instead of using internal playtesters only, game devs use external ones that want to help, giving them a lot more insight and evidence.zip, as the game they're making is still unfinished and essentially in beta form. So yeah, devs are the ones behind the wheel until the game is finished. Again, welcome to game development 101.

After the game is done, the wheel is in the players hands.

If you dislike this concept, then you practically dislike how games are made. Or least open beta/demos.

 

[SAUS]

You do realize this is how designing, developing, and playtesting competitive games work, pre-final release right?

• Internal players playtest the game, find out what **** works and doesnt work and why/how, abuse tools given to them, attempt to break the game/develop broken strats
• Feedback is relayed and evidence.zip is given back to the developers
• Developers adjust game to align with their final goals and give back newly tweaked game to playtesters
• Repeat until launch

Then the game gets in the hands of the players and is considered a whole new ballgame at that point. The point behind the demos/open beta/early access is that instead of using internal playtesters only, game devs use external ones that want to help, giving them a lot more insight and evidence.zip, as the game they're making is still unfinished and essentially in beta form. So yeah, devs are the ones behind the wheel until the game is finished. Again, welcome to game development 101.

After the game is done, the wheel is in the players hands.

If you dislike this concept, then you practically dislike how games are made. Or least open beta/demos.

Yes, I do realise this. There's just a certain extent of it that annoys me. League of legends is probably the worst offender of this - they patch ALL the time and they kill many, many creative/new strategies. They warp the meta how they want all the time. Melee is basically set in stone and cannot be changed at this point, which is the polar opposite of league of legends.

I guess my problem with Project M is that it IS a beta - it's just not complete. I prefer playing complete games since I know the stuff in the game will not change drastically.

That's very general, though. My problem with Project M right now is that they seem to want to make every character super fast with lots of weird cancelling moves that don't entirely match how other smash bros games seem to work.

 

[GHNeko]

Yes, I do realise this. There's just a certain extent of it that annoys me. League of legends is probably the worst offender of this - they patch ALL the time and they kill many, many creative/new strategies. They warp the meta how they want all the time. Melee is basically set in stone and cannot be changed at this point, which is the polar opposite of league of legends.

I guess my problem with Project M is that it IS a beta - it's just not complete. I prefer playing complete games since I know the stuff in the game will not change drastically.

Well, that's fair then. :V

However...

That's very general, though. My problem with Project M right now is that they seem to want to make every character super fast with lots of weird cancelling moves that don't entirely match how other smash bros games seem to work.

I definitely disagree with the "don't entirely match how smash bros games seem to work." It doesn't make much sense. The series, at its core, for all intents and purposes, are the same. When you get into specifics of each game's mechanics, all the games branch out and form their own identity, and give us radically different experiences. Innovations and new/different/altered mechanics are introduced. Project M is no different and is completely in line with this trend.

New things that are introduced will always seem "weird" or more appropriately, different, at first. I'm pretty sure that for the unaccustomed, DACUSing and AGTing are odd at first. But just like Brawl and Project M after it, new mechanics from Melee such as Airdodging, followed the same path as well. But they don't make their respective games any less "Smash".

Things like Ivy's Healing, Snake's Grab Walking, Samus' Beam Swapping, and more. Are they different? Yes. It's because they're new. But it doesn't make Project M any less smash. Less Melee? Maybe, but even that is up for debate.

 

[Rokkman]

Try playing it before you develop too much of a negative opinion. It's fun.

 

[Scarlet Bean]

Try playing it before you develop too much of a negative opinion. It's fun.

Played it. The mod rewards campy playstyles alot. Went back to melee.

 

[GHNeko]

Played it. The mod rewards campy playstyles alot. Went back to melee.

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)


Could you elaborate?

 

[Scarlet Bean]

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)


Could you elaborate?

Luigi's cyclone attack can gain aerial momentum, so even when the opponent is shielding, he can throw out a nair or just go into another cyclone.
Bowser still has no approaches other than spamming up b oos.
Zelda.
Most of Ivysaur's combos are dependant on his razorleaf. Go for a B-reversal razor leaf fast fall dash grab(or stall/down tilt). Also, if the opponent decides to jump in on you while doing this, B-reversal razor leaf -> neutral air -> grab/forward tilt
Did you watched Gimr's Samus yesterday? ok

 

[dRevan64]

In defense of PM which is not usually the position I take samus really isn't much less campy in melee.

 

[Scarlet Bean]

In defense of PM which is not usually the position I take samus really isn't much less campy in melee.

Scratch out my samus-related argument then

 

[GHNeko]

Luigi's cyclone attack can gain aerial momentum, so even when the opponent is shielding, he can throw out a nair or just go into another cyclone.
Bowser still has no approaches other than spamming up b oos.
Zelda.
Most of Ivysaur's combos are dependant on his razorleaf. Go for a B-reversal razor leaf fast fall dash grab(or stall/down tilt). Also, if the opponent decides to jump in on you while doing this, B-reversal razor leaf -> neutral air -> grab/forward tilt
Did you watched Gimr's Samus yesterday? ok

None of this really explains how PM rewards campy playstyles. You cite 2 characters who were defensive as hell in Melee (Zelda/Samus), 1 character who cant approach (Bowser) and has to rely on baits, and 1 character who has had the offending move toned down in 3.0. Your luigi example doesn't even qualify as campy.

By saying "PM rewards campy playstyles a lot", you're implying that the game rewards campy play as a whole, not on 4 characters.

 

[Deleted member]

By saying "PM rewards campy playstyles a lot", you're implying that the game rewards campy play as a whole, not on 4 characters.

i haven't really been keeping up with this discussion. that said, i do think that PM currently encourages spamming spaced moves over other strategies because shield push-back hasn't been fixed yet. as a sheik/marth player, i'm not looking forward to the changes lol

 

[GHNeko]

The shield changes would make me so happy.

 

[Scarlet Bean]

None of this really explains how PM rewards campy playstyles. You cite 2 characters who were defensive as hell in Melee (Zelda/Samus), 1 character who cant approach (Bowser) and has to rely on baits, and 1 character who has had the offending move toned down in 3.0. Your luigi example doesn't even qualify as campy.

By saying "PM rewards campy playstyles a lot", you're implying that the game rewards campy play as a whole, not on 4 characters.

I'm trying to say that moves like that make it difficult for anyone to approach so, the only sensible thing to do would be to play passively in this obscene mod

Do you expect me to bring out the flaws of every character instead of just giving out examples of a few

 

[Scarlet Bean]

I guess "reward" wasn't the term I was looking for. it's more like force campy playstyles.

 

[GHNeko]

That's better worded, slightly. I get what you're saying.

It's not that I expected you to bring out flaws of every character (though having doing so would of also indicated a campy theme of PM that would of supported your latest statement)

It's just that I was saying that you didn't explain how PM forced campiness.

You got your message across, and while I don't agree with it, I know what you're really trying to say now.

 

[Qzzy]

After watching the trailer for 3.0, I doubt this game will be for me. I'll play it with my group, and will enjoy it, but I cant see myself invested enough to play it at tournaments or practice it solo. Not that I'm totally invested in Melee. I hardly go to tournaments now, and wasn't particularly active when I was. Just Melee would be my choice if I wanted to get back into it. Or 64 if that ever got popular again, but whatever...

It's easy to be negative, so I'll just say I feel a certain disconnect. I guess I feel like I'm in the (maybe my own?) camp of "less is more." Project M just feel like too much stuff added and buffed for me. I was more hopeful for a subtle, tame sort of approach to designing the game. "Tame buffs" as my friend put it.

Still hope you guys get big and stable. Would make my purchase of a brawl disc and a Wii not so regrettable, even if so many years down the line.

 

[SAUS]

Well, that's fair then. :V

However...


I definitely disagree with the "don't entirely match how smash bros games seem to work." It doesn't make much sense. The series, at its core, for all intents and purposes, are the same. When you get into specifics of each game's mechanics, all the games branch out and form their own identity, and give us radically different experiences. Innovations and new/different/altered mechanics are introduced. Project M is no different and is completely in line with this trend.

New things that are introduced will always seem "weird" or more appropriately, different, at first. I'm pretty sure that for the unaccustomed, DACUSing and AGTing are odd at first. But just like Brawl and Project M after it, new mechanics from Melee such as Airdodging, followed the same path as well. But they don't make their respective games any less "Smash".

Things like Ivy's Healing, Snake's Grab Walking, Samus' Beam Swapping, and more. Are they different? Yes. It's because they're new. But it doesn't make Project M any less smash. Less Melee? Maybe, but even that is up for debate.

I don't disagree with those examples. It's more stuff like how Ike can jump out of his forward-b and is basically just lightning fast because of this ability. He looks "incorrect" to me because I don't think he should be so fast.

I know what you mean by saying new stuff is new. It'd be like saying melee isn't smash bros because compare it N64 version and it's not even close once you get specific. There's just certain new things that I don't like so much, and the major one is the overall speed increase of characters. Some speed is fine, but sometimes it looks like a previously low tier character is now good because they just upped their speed on everything to the point where it becomes difficult to even punish them - from even up-b's and stuff. It looked like lucario could cancel his up-b into anything and it seemed like it was extremely hard to punish his recovery.

While these are things I dislike, it doesn't mean I dislike the game. They are just things that bug me and that's all. If I were to play the game, I'd probably get used to it pretty fast. I don't play the game, so my observations are probably very naive.

 

[The_NZA]

I got constipated just from reading this.

Lactose intolerance?

 

[The_NZA]

I don't disagree with those examples. It's more stuff like how Ike can jump out of his forward-b and is basically just lightning fast because of this ability. He looks "incorrect" to me because I don't think he should be so fast.

I know what you mean by saying new stuff is new. It'd be like saying melee isn't smash bros because compare it N64 version and it's not even close once you get specific. There's just certain new things that I don't like so much, and the major one is the overall speed increase of characters. Some speed is fine, but sometimes it looks like a previously low tier character is now good because they just upped their speed on everything to the point where it becomes difficult to even punish them - from even up-b's and stuff. It looked like lucario could cancel his up-b into anything and it seemed like it was extremely hard to punish his recovery.

While these are things I dislike, it doesn't mean I dislike the game. They are just things that bug me and that's all. If I were to play the game, I'd probably get used to it pretty fast. I don't play the game, so my observations are probably very naive.

To be fair, you have to ask yourself how many "random non-smash stuff"/design-exceptions melee is littered with, if you are going to point that finger at PM. Do Fox's/Falco's 1 frame jump cancellable shines very "smash like" when no one else in the game has anything remotely like that? How is falco's dair at all smash like, with it's length and spike hitbox on every part of it (the only other two spikes I can name in that game are marth's dair which has a low startup, and Cfalcon's nipple spike, which has a tiny amount of active frames). Peach's viability islargely rooted in an absurd dsmash that can do 60-80% on crouch cancellers, and her unique mechanic to float, and additionally cancel the lag of any aerial to 0 with a float. Those are all very weird in context to the rest of the game. Even the fact that sheik can charge needles and hit L to stop charging them, and has an up b with complete invincibility if ledge grabbed has no precedent in Smash. Ice climbers having joined grabs (and really, just the fact that there are two of them) is very "un-melee", when considering the design choices in the rest of the game. And Marth's tipper system, while intended, is also a unique mechanic exclusively him that doesn't particularly fit in with smash 101 philosophy (spacing has always been important, and so has multiple hitboxes on a move, but such strong knockback variation across the entire blade is like nothing else in the game).

Part of what makes the top tiers in Melee so fearsome is the strength of their unique attributes: unique attributes which in neutral, often can be classified as rife with exceptions. "Nairing your shield would have been unsafe with any character, BUT I can use a 1 frame shine to keep me safe", "linking aerials with a floaty with low air speed would be impossible, BUT I have a float and a float cancel". "Coming back on stage at a high or low angle would be a valid mix up against any opponent BUT I'm falco, and I have a spike that is active through my whole jump, which covers incredible vertical distance".

I can see how some smash designs in PM might feel weird (lucario magic series, Snake land mines), but most of the options aren't any weirder than the unique attributes of Melee's viable cast. You just don't always see that perspective, because you play so often with this cast of 8. Their peculiarities feel like the rule, when the rules of smash are more commonly found within the next 17 characters in the cast.

 

[SAUS]

Lol and I thought my post was rather neutral.

I said at the bottom that these are my observations and they are probably very naive.

Well done guys.

 

[The_NZA]

Lol and I thought my post was rather neutral.

I said at the bottom that these are my observations and they are probably very naive.

Well done guys.

I hope you don't feel attacked. If you read our posts, they aren't pointed to casting you in a negative light. I know I wrote my post with the intent to simply disprove some misconceptions.

I hope you found posts like mine informative rather than negative.

 

[The_NZA]

Lol and I thought my post was rather neutral.

I said at the bottom that these are my observations and they are probably very naive.

Well done guys.

I wanted to add a little more off of the specifics of your previous post. You mentioned how it feels like they upped everyone's mobility and safeness of options (pointing to things like Lucario's cancelable moves, Ike's relatively commitmentless forward b, and others). When you examine the top 8 characters of Melee, part of what makes them so good is their mobility and safeness of options. Think about the most fearsome attributes of the top 8: Fox/Shiek's horizontal mobility, Falco's vertical mobility and safe quick shine hitboxes, C falcon's mobility. Jigg's aerial mobility that gives her really safe aerial hit boxes. Peach wouldn't be viable without float cancelable 0 lag moves. Marth strives off of good aerial mobility/range, and an incredible grab range that keeps him safe while he is aggressive.

I actually think the PM:BR did an amazing job with the task of creating new fighting styles that can compete with the mobile melee top tier. Mario isn't ultra mobile in the traditional sense, but he flows well off of individual hits. Bowser is able to compete with intelligent usage of super armor. Ike would never survive in a melee environment without Quickdraw, unless he had a REALLY silly sword with unrewarding gameplay. Ganon wouldn't survive smash without a forwardb/downb mixup or kill potential.

Unfotunately, in this game series we adore, mobility is king. Thankfully, the PMBR has been able to make characters like Link/Bowser/Ivysaur/DK/Luigi/Ganon/DDD/Ike viable by experimenting with new things you might consider "unsmash-like".

 

[JacopeX]

But isn't that the problem though, why would we take the time to learn match ups in an emulation that isn't even complete yet, when we could just stick to melee?

Isn't that how Melee players started out with each match up in the beginning? Learning matchups is only a slice of any game.

 

[SAUS]

I hope you don't feel attacked. If you read our posts, they aren't pointed to casting you in a negative light. I know I wrote my post with the intent to simply disprove some misconceptions.

I hope you found posts like mine informative rather than negative.

I guess I read it like that because I read the one before it like that, and my post prior to the one you quoted also got attacked. I kind of just wanted to leave that other post there and be done with it. I'm arguing about stuff I don't really know and these are just my initial observations, so I don't really have good things to say, or any backup for what I say.

I think there was some mention of how powerful each character is and how the game seems to be balancing towards spacies when they should have aimed at something like captain falcon's strength for balancing. I agree with this sentiment because punishable moves and risky moves are just a lot more fun to use and watch. I know that it helps the balance of the game and allows fox and falco to remain similar to how they are in melee, but then everyone has to play like them with super fast, nearly unpunishable moves (not all of them just a lot of them).

 

[DerfMidWest]

I'd enjoy P:M if it were fast and not as campy.
Or if they just stopped making anything that was difficult to do in melee so easy <.<
like what the hell. I spent so much time practicing stuff in melee, then in P:M it's just like all I have to do is read how to do a technique and I've mastered it.

there is no challenge or anything to learn.
one of my favorite things in melee is just grinding out techskill and finally getting it down.

I understand making the game easy to pick up, but why the hell does EVERYTHING have to be so easy?

also **** bowser.

 

[The_NZA]

I'd enjoy P:M if it were fast and not as campy.
Or if they just stopped making anything that was difficult to do in melee so easy <.<
like what the hell. I spent so much time practicing stuff in melee, then in P:M it's just like all I have to do is read how to do a technique and I've mastered it.

there is no challenge or anything to learn.
one of my favorite things in melee is just grinding out techskill and finally getting it down.

I understand making the game easy to pick up, but why the hell does EVERYTHING have to be so easy?

also **** bowser.

Pray tell, besides short hopping being easy, what is actually easier in PM than Melee? Last time I checked, Falco, shiek, peach, jiggs are just as easy in melee as pm.

 

[DerfMidWest]

nah, everything is easy now.
multi-shines are way more lenient. (same for shine->aerial inputs with fox)
multi-moonwalks are a joke.
mario's upB walljump LMAOcatching turnips is just a joke now (it already was in melee, but there is no timing involved now that you can just wavedash through them)
perfect wavelands
sheik's needle stuff
dash canceled utilts
etc.etc.etc.

not to mention all the newly introduced things just take no effort at all to learn.

I'm expecting samus SWDs to be super easy once she's out too.
I'm almost scared of how easy everything I've practiced with ICs is going to be once they're out.

 

[The_NZA]

nah, everything is easy now.
multi-shines are way more lenient. (same for shine->aerial inputs with fox)
multi-moonwalks are a joke.
mario's upB walljump LMAOcatching turnips is just a joke now (it already was in melee, but there is no timing involved now that you can just wavedash through them)
perfect wavelands
sheik's needle stuff
dash canceled utilts
etc.etc.etc.

not to mention all the newly introduced things just take no effort at all to learn.

I'm expecting samus SWDs to be super easy once she's out too.
I'm almost scared of how easy everything I've practiced with ICs is going to be once they're out.

I'm sure you'll have plenty of difficulty learning every matchup. There is that to look forward to.

 

[DerfMidWest]

not really. if 3.0 is anything like the other builds, I'll be interested in the new characters for like a week or two, but then once I have all their character specific tech down, I'll get bored, since the gameplay in project:M really doesn't entertain me all that much, and I'll just go back to melee.

I do love what has been done with P:M though and I respect all the work that's been put in.
I just think the devs have made some poor gameplay decisions and botched mechanics.

 

[GHNeko]

nah, everything is easy now.
multi-shines are way more lenient. (same for shine->aerial inputs with fox)
multi-moonwalks are a joke.
mario's upB walljump LMAOcatching turnips is just a joke now (it already was in melee, but there is no timing involved now that you can just wavedash through them)
perfect wavelands
sheik's needle stuff
dash canceled utilts
etc.etc.etc.

not to mention all the newly introduced things just take no effort at all to learn.

I'm expecting samus SWDs to be super easy once she's out too.
I'm almost scared of how easy everything I've practiced with ICs is going to be once they're out.

SWD is a 2f window btw.

also all the new stuff "not taking effort to learn" is a combination of you having years of technical skill practice with melee being applied to things that are a step down from melee in terms of technical difficulty.

 

[Rarik]

1-frame window for some DACUSes, no effort to learn, wut. I mean yeah P:M doesn't add much in the extremely difficult to do department, but if a 1-frame DACUS is easy for you, I'm not sure anything is going to satisfy you tech skill wise.

 

[The_NZA]

I also find Ness's/Lucas's magnet DJC combo tricks to be incredibly hard to do with consistency. Just watch a Calabrel vid and tell me that stuff is easy. Really, very little in melee was technically difficult to do in a vaccum: it was within a fight where you were really tested.

 

[Scarlet Bean]

I also find Ness's/Lucas's magnet DJC combo tricks to be incredibly hard to do with consistency. Just watch a Calabrel vid and tell me that stuff is easy. Really, very little in melee was technically difficult to do in a vaccum: it was within a fight where you were really tested.

Change the c-stick input for special attack. Makes Ness a joke