What we still need

[Veril]

OK, I'm gonna need to compile another set of proposals. That said I'm gonna assume the essential ones will go through, and so here's what we're gonna need for gold. I'm just gonna put up the character specific stuff for now.

-Bowser: .pac with ledgegrab range increase? creates own momentum with aerial up-b?
••• ??????

-Captain Falcon: Viet's physics tested (0926AA70), we'll probably need to tinker with this somewhat.
••• Ready (Cape)

-Charizard: Blind got a fixed roll
••• Ready

-Diddy Kong: the recovery fix shanus proposed
••• Guy supposedly is working on this.

-ICs: new .pac (tested) <3 Blind
••• Ready (Blind)

-Jiggs: new .pac (tested) needs the 3-6 frame increase to the duration added in via the framespeed mod code to remove the up-throw upair combo completely.
••• Blind

-Kirby: new .pac (tested)
••• Ready (Blind, Cape)

-Luigi: new .pac (tested)
••• Ready (Cape)

-Lucario: decide what to do about the up-throw CG...

-Mario:
+ Dair: Weak hits to 365 angle
+ U throw: to 93 angle from 100; -5 growth
+ D throw: to 87 angle from 100; -5 growth
••• Ready (Cape)

-Marth: that ***** gets new physics (119973D0), the modified fair, and the aerial stop momentum nerf removed... I need a new .pac "grumble grumble" >.<
••• Blind

-MK: need a new .pac with the IDC removal fix
••• ?????

-Ness: see yoshi for the DJCH fix.
••• ?????

C-stickimar: pikmin physics O.o and also fix pikmin ghosting
••• ?????

-Sheik: new .pac with Magus's proposed Chain Jacket crash fix
••• ?????

-Sonic:
+ U smash holds in better (exact stats to come) •••*already agreed on
+ SDI on all U smash hits back to vBrawl defaults (.2 and .6 from .4 and .8) •••*already agreed on
+ Uair:
- SDI and Hitlag on hitboxes 1-4 to .7 from 1 •••*needs confirmation
- KBG to 75 from 100 ••• needs confirmation
••• Ready (Cape)

-Yoshi: need a new .pac with the egg jump refreshes set to 1 and the DJ cancel window moved to 4 frames following the start of the DJ (should remove at least the most common form of DJCH).
••• ?????

-Wolf: Viet's snazzy new side-b hitbox and new physics
••• ready

-Zelda: reflector fix, up-smash inv. to heavy armor
••• Blind


Mechanics / Misc changes

-Stage hacks, esp Boundary adjustments:
••• Veril

-Fix the dead frame on jump (<3 Shanus)
••• Ready

-Figure out the electric hitstun glitch

-ledge inv. decay

-fix the lip on FD

-fix powershield buffering

-Controller Port Priority rework?


The changelist:

 

[5ive]

By Pikmin physics, you mean fixing the hitstun on Yellow Pikmin bthrows, right?

 

[VietGeek]

The surefire way to fix that is to change the element flags I believe (put it to 0/None I guess). I'm rather ignorant on the electric hitlag glitches.

Also the b*tch just needs what we agreed on (easy to apply) and an animation tweak (get someone who knows how to edit Motion files) and he's cash. Smoothest sh*t I've eaten ever; no fiber.

 

[Veril]

no, the electric hitstun glitch affects a bunch of moves. IIRC Ganon's up-b, yellow pikmin throws, possibly yellow pikmin up-b, thunderjolt all suffer from it. The root cause has to be addressed, cause I'm sure it affects other moves.

"Ponders"

 

[The Cape]

Sonic:
+ U smash holds in better (exact stats to come)
+ SDI on all U smash hits back to vBrawl defaults (.2 and .6 from .4 and .8)
+ Uair:
- SDI and Hitlag on hitboxes 1-4 to .7 from 1
- KBG to 75 from 100
+ U throw
- Angle and KB change (removes CG and makes the move more useful)
+ Jabs
- Jabs edited to link better

Mario:
+ Dair: Weak hits to 365 angle
+ U throw: to 93 angle from 100; -5 growth
+ D throw: to 87 angle from 100; -5 growth

I can get you a .pac of each of these to test if you guys want.

 

[Blinds]

-Zelda: finish the reflector fix already Blind!

Working on it. Zelda's still a c*ntb*tch. Also the changelist. Can we put that on the list of sh*t that needs to be done?

 

[MK26]

my personal opinion on lucario's uthrow is straight up increase the endlag by 6 frames or so

so i heard vowel censoring is the sh*t now

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Are we still going to go through with the no ledgesnap on upBs idea? This would be the most opportune time to put them in (or adjust hitlag for the few that were going to keep it), and I think most of us agree auto-ledgesnap on shielded hit is silly.

 

[The Cape]

TH, that **** is already out. Keep up :-p

 

[Thunderhorse+]

You forget I've been out of the country for a month and have yet to play Brawl+ with anyone since getting back >_<.

 

[The Cape]

What else do we need? Mario and Sonic are done.

 

[Blinds]

I'm taking care of Marth and Zelda.

That leaves Diddy, Yoshi, Charizard, Falcon, Lucario, MK, Ness, Sheik and Olimar.

Lets get this done

 

[The Cape]

Zelda U smash heavy armor is still a bad idea I feel.

What about full body invulnerable for the first two frames of the hitbox?

Rewards good timing and allows her to use the move as the perfect anti air. Less stupid than the current setup and not horrifically ******** as heavy or super armor.


Posted the Sonic and Mario stuff in the other thread.

I have a kirby.pac with an F throw and F smash fixes setup

Charizard upB seems so unneccesay since you can just ride up the stage (including FD with the stage fixes). Not to mention he is one of three characters on an already excellent character (PT).

For Falcon, there is an attribute in his .pac for his weight. Give him less weight (as his physics give him great artificial weight as is) and he will fly farther and still play exactly the same. MUCH easier fix.

Have some Wolf physics to try too:
2C55C480

And what do the other changed physics do?

 

[The Cape]

Kirby, Mario, and Sonic:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=R09WNZ87

Changes:
Mario:
U tilt:
- All hitboxes to 55 BKB and 80 KBG

Dair:
- Weak hits to 365 angle

U throw:
- Angle changed to 93 from 100

D throw:
- Angle changed to 87 from 90
- 45 KBG from 50



Sonic:

- First jab all hits to 4B KBG from 64
- Second jab all hits to size 5 and 4B KBG from 64

- Usmash:
- First hitbox changed to 4 dmg, 89 degrees, and 75 BKB
- Second hitbox changed to 4 dmg, 90 degrees, and 76 BKB
- Added hitbox the frame after the previous two end:
- Duration 2 frames
- 260 degree angle, 35 BKB, Size 6, placed on the neck
- Time between final launching hitbox and repeating hitboxes changed to 5 frames from 7 (to compensate for the new hitbox)
- Looping hitboxes changed to 365 angle

Uair:
- First four hitboxes to .7 hitlag and SDI from 1x
- First four hitboxes to 75 KBG from 100

U throw:
- 96 angle from 100
- 60 KBG from 70
- 85 BKB from 65

D throw:
- 35 angle from 20

Kirby:
+F smash hi:
- First three hitboxes KBG changed from 89 to 94
- Hitboxes 4 and 5 KBG changed from 85 to 90
- Hitbox 6 KBG chnaged from 83 to 88

+F smash straight:
- First three hitboxes KBG changed from 87 to 92
- Hitboxes 4 and 5 KBG changed from 85 to 90
- Hitbox 6 KBG chnaged from 83 to 88

+F smash low:
- First three hitboxes KBG changed from 86 to 90
- Hitboxes 4 and 5 KBG changed from 85 to 90
- Hitbox 6 KBG chnaged from 83 to 88

+F throw:
- Angle changed from 60 to 35
- 40 KBG and 65 BKB

 

[VietGeek]

Blind for Marth I believe the fair animation needed to be changed to go alongside the hitbox durations.

@Cape:

Falcon: Lowers hitstun he receives; I believe it knocks the Kirby Dthrow from infinite to CG status. He's also slightly floatier, similar to Melee; I believe he's like one float value away from being Melee floaty pre-FF.

I think the weight change may be too "radical" as it would alter his horizontal KO %'s. Sure it's easy for us, but we need to make sure we've put some foresight into what we're messing with. The last thing we need is to screw off the handful of consistent players we have again (oh wait no one plays rarth so whatever rofl). But yeah, are we sure it doesn't affect anything else?

Marth: float less than 4 on Dgrav means faster apex on jumps. Should smooth him out a bit and not make him feel so clunky. Everything else is the same.

I'll try the Wolf physics soon. I've tried 2C55C380 and it feels okay, a lot more bearable for the opponent, but I didn't feel like I got gayed by the change either.

You played a little Wolf at BtL2 iirc, how do the physics feel for you?

Also what is the Kirby fthrow change for?

 

[The Cape]

The old physics with Wolf are just plain stupid since he cant be comboed. I just abused the most ******** **** I could find at that tourney, hence Ness.

As for the Falcon weight. The dude is VERY hard to KO off the sides as is. And if Kirby's D throw CG is still really bad on Falcon, we may need to tweak it a wee bit. Lucario will still be an issue I assume, because he is Lucario.


For Ike sideB:
220F011C 40400000

That is the current frame speed mod. Frame 16 it moves at 3x speed.

Original Frame Data:
~After Contact/Hit~
Hit on: 1-3
IASA: 58

This means that the move is 30 frames long, instead of 58

So my suggestion
Is to change that frame speed from 3x to 2x. This will make the move end frame 37 and therefore bring more punishment to the move. Then we have Ike's midair jump refresh when he swings the sword. I already have a .pac for this and I feel it would be a good change to go in. I can host up the .pac if that is what people want to try.


New Frame Speed Line:
220F011C 40000000

This change should be made not because the move is overpowered or anything like that, but this actually allows more characters than just DDD to punish this thing. Makes the 15 frame disadvantage into a 22 frame disadvantage which is good for the push back.


Ike .pac:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=D1HY9H5K

 

[Blinds]

Blind for Marth I believe the fair animation needed to be changed to go alongside the hitbox durations.

Yes, hence I'm modifying the speed of the animation to "remove" that one frame.

You played a little Wolf at BtL2 iirc, how do the physics feel for you?

As I recall it wasn't the physics Cape played Wolf for, it was the stupid as hell nair. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Zelda U smash heavy armor is still a bad idea I feel.

What about full body invulnerable for the first two frames of the hitbox?

Rewards good timing and allows her to use the move as the perfect anti air. Less stupid than the current setup and not horrifically ******** as heavy or super armor.

I wholeheartedly support this. Especially since I discovered partial heavy armor isn't possible, at least as of now. I'll make test pacs of both.

 

[omegablackmage]

Would prefer the short startup i frames to the heavy armor.

I like the proposed changes to ike as well, makes it less ******** to react to onstage, thus making it more punishable, and a dj refresh to compensate (although this might be too much, im not sure).

Kirby changes look good, more kbg overall on the fsmash to compensate, and i think you already showed me how that fthrow changes things, and i remember approving then.

 

[VietGeek]

As I recall it wasn't the physics Cape played Wolf for, it was the stupid as hell nair. Correct me if I'm wrong.

More like both. <_<

Anyway that was bad wording on my part. I meant how does Cape's proposed physics feel to him? Roughly the same "feel" of the old physics or what?

Anyway my SD card reader is convenient not within the vicinity so I guess I'm gonna play that game that starts with M and ends with e.

 

[The Cape]

Its pretty much the same feel but it should create more stun overall. He keeps his floaty air time, but should get juggled a bit better. I dont have anyone to test it against sadly.

 

[JCaesar]

Does Wolf still have AC fair?

And I (and Bandit) really think Zelda's usmash should just be reverted to 5.0. It's been ****ed with so much for no good reason.

 

[The Cape]

So it can pierce platforms and therefore become a move you will NEVER land against? Nice.

 

[VietGeek]

zelda's usmash will pierce the heavens and strike the lightning god so that even thunder will be too scared to speak!

also jcaesar it should still have ac fair since dgrav doesn't affect shorthop height at all nor does it affect the descent time from a shorthop.

 

[The Cape]

Btw. ZSS D smash doesnt tumble til almost 65. She also has an unavoidable setup into it at 0.

Reverse uair to turn around D smash. Then you D smash to 60 something, U smash, bair.

Its basically 0 to 85. Works on everyone.


Edit: Just got it further, about 95 into a tech chase >.>


More BKB and KBG on the D smash huh?

Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0bDvlvygVc

 

[leafgreen386]

I'll have to give those wolf physics a whirl. Marth fair is absolutely horrid without an anim change, though. It should be acceptable once that's fixed.

For zelda usmash... just remove the invuln from bones 35 and 36, and then change the bone collision at the end to an undo bone collisions. Right now her invuln doesn't terminate because of that. Removing invuln from bones 35 and 36 will remove the invuln from her torso up to her chest, but leave invuln for everything above her chest.

 

[The Cape]

That could also work. Did I use the wrong stop invulnerable coding for it?

If so, I blame this guy:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=254681


Edit:

For ZSS:
+5 degrees on the angle and +10 BKB should fix it. Easy easy

 

[leafgreen386]

You did. You used bone collision (bone 0, type 0) instead of undo bone collisions (revert to type 0). I'm pretty sure ryoko told you the right thing... you just didn't do it =p

 

[The Cape]

Oh, well someone fix it right then >.>. I claim to know how to break ****, not make it work right.

Also, another idea to consider (and I have heard some input on this):
Remove Link upB charge up and then increase its KB so the move has an actual use.

 

[The Cape]

****ing forum and its double posting ****.

Anyway, less grav on Link upB in the air?

 

[leafgreen386]

Zelda pac: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=BJ5YY93S

Same as the 6.0 pac except with the invuln removed from bones 35 and 36 and with a properly terminating invuln.

For zss, that sounds beautifully simple.

For link... I'm surprised you're actually considering that change for grounded upB. I didn't think anything that big would be considered at this point.

 

[The Cape]

No charge = different from TL.

Makes the move useful again

Link mains like the idea (or did before, fickle ****s).

The charge is fairly useless.

 

[Plum]

In what way would you say its useless?
I wouldn't call it useless, rather Link just has better options. It does what it's supposed to do, which is punish with a great semispike angle. It just seems like Up B pales in comparison to his other options at punishing a poorly spaced recovery, or better yet gimping you before an Up B attempt would be relevant.

I don't see it being much better even if it hit like a truck like Melee's Up B. I don't see too many uses for the move, but I can't say it would be because of the power. If anything the move is just too slow, and Link has a lot of options to gimp his opponent or edgegaurd more effectively than his Up B. On stage its just too slow and punishable. You could make it faster, but that's just forcing the move to be as good as his other options.

I hate the current Fair, and if something were to be changed with Link it would be that, and maybe a momentum fix on his Up B. Other than that he seems like a very well rounded character that doesn't need anything else.

I don't understand why the charge needs to go. If the game forced you to charge a grounded Up B, then sure, but its just a little something that's in the game as a tip of the hat to the series.

 

[The Cape]

Uncharged is so weak that the move has no real use and the charge takes too long to be useful (cant buff weak without buffing strong too). Removing the charge would make it a great sidestep catcher and Link does not have enough of those on the ground.

 

[JCaesar]

^ More completely unnecessary changes in our supposedly "stable" set, awesome

So it can pierce platforms and therefore become a move you will NEVER land against? Nice.

It's not as good as you make it out to be. It was not an issue in 5.0. I rarely ever heard complaints about it. I don't know why you have a personal vendetta against this move.

It's beatable. On low platforms, tilt the shield down so it doesn't poke, then jump away or drop down with a quick aerial. On mid-high platforms, only the last hit hits anyway so it's not an issue at all. It's hardly unique in the way it ***** platforms. Any character with a multihit or lingering aerial can catch someone landing on a platform the same way Zelda's usmash can. What about DDD's utilt? It's a large lingering hitbox that ***** platforms and kills even better than Zelda's usmash and is just as spammable. Also not broken.

If anything it just needs to be a bit more SDI-able so you have a chance to escape. Not all these silly hitbox movements and invulnerability tweaks that change the function of the move.

 

[goodoldganon]

I agree with everything Plum said. If Link gets anything it's the F-air change, otherwise he is a great character.

 

[Veril]

For ZSS:
+5 degrees on the angle and +10 BKB should fix it. Easy easy

I agree with this completely. Its the same issue as with Luigi's dair. 10 bkb doesn't have a significant kb effect BUT it will make the move DIable at the % it is supposed to be, thus avoiding the 60+% autocombo loop on FFers / most heavies.

 

[The Cape]

Got a good deal of updates here (changelist included):

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=0WYOF1TY

And since I know I have to say it ****ING TRY IT BEFORE YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT IT

Changes included:
Ike:

- Side B refreshes midair jump is sword is swung
- Speed up changed to 2x from 3x (ends 37 from 30)

Zelda:

- Invulnerability removed from chest and waist on U smash
- Invulnerability properly terminates

Mario:
U tilt:
- All hitboxes to 55 BKB and 80 KBG

Dair:
- Weak hits to 365 angle

U throw:
- Angle changed to 93 from 100

D throw:
- Angle changed to 87 from 90
- 45 KBG from 50



Sonic:

- First jab all hits to 4B KBG from 64
- Second jab all hits to size 5 and 4B KBG from 64

- Usmash:
- First hitbox changed to 4 dmg, 89 degrees, and 75 BKB
- Second hitbox changed to 4 dmg, 90 degrees, and 76 BKB
- Added hitbox the frame after the previous two end:
- Duration 2 frames
- 260 degree angle, 35 BKB, Size 6, placed on the neck
- Time between final launching hitbox and repeating hitboxes changed to 5 frames from 7 (to compensate for the new hitbox)
- Looping hitboxes changed to 365 angle

Uair:
- First four hitboxes to .7 hitlag and SDI from 1x
- First four hitboxes to 75 KBG from 100

U throw:
- 96 angle from 100
- 60 KBG from 70
- 85 BKB from 65

D throw:
- 35 angle from 20

Kirby:
+F smash hi:
- First three hitboxes KBG changed from 89 to 94
- Hitboxes 4 and 5 KBG changed from 85 to 90
- Hitbox 6 KBG chnaged from 83 to 88

+F smash straight:
- First three hitboxes KBG changed from 87 to 92
- Hitboxes 4 and 5 KBG changed from 85 to 90
- Hitbox 6 KBG chnaged from 83 to 88

+F smash low:
- First three hitboxes KBG changed from 86 to 90
- Hitboxes 4 and 5 KBG changed from 85 to 90
- Hitbox 6 KBG chnaged from 83 to 88

+F throw:
- Angle changed from 60 to 35
- 40 KBG and 65 BKB

Zerosuit:

- D smash has +10 BKB

Jiggs:
U throw (.83333 speed from frame 13 to end; adds 6 frames)


Wolf and Marth and Falcon:
- Physics added

 

[The Cape]

From testing:

ZSS D smash gets:

- 3 from 0% on Falcon (two from reverse uair)
- Fox/Falco/Ganon = same as Falcon
- 1 on DDD and Jiggs

The move sends too high for DDD and Jiggs and tumbles around 30% now. So we can call that one fixed.

Zelda U smash feels right

Wolf physics: Good and still has AC fair

Marth physics: Looks good.

Ike sideB "stops" before he falls. thoughts?

 

[GHNeko]

We are fixing the wall jumping issue right? As it is, you can't scar jump like you could in older sets ie 0 frame timer on wall jumps. I understand the reasoning behind it, but as it is now, it doesn't seem like the code is working and works more like it did in Brawl.

Also, adding wall jump capabilities to a bunch of stages. Like for example, with Wario Ware there was only a specific section in which you could wall jump from. There was a fix that allowed you to jump from anywhere on the wall, which is good.

Building on this, there are a plethora of stages that have spots that would be good for wall jumping. For example, Smashville, or Pokemon Stadium 2, or even better, Yoshi's Island.

There a bits and pieces of places within the entirety of the stage list that would serve as excellent spots to wall jump from, but just don't have the right flag.

 

[The Cape]

Well there are "Walljump" and "No-walljump" wall flags.

Being able to jump, rejump, and walljump again is the point of that one code and if it doesnt work right I am sure we can fix it.

As for the walljump and no-walljump walls. I feel all walls should be walljumpable except for the "ceiling" part of FD that has been changed to wall. Agree or disagree?