What Sakurai is Doing: An Essay Regarding the Possibilty of Multi-Dimensional Tiers

[motsalogeL]

5150 you know the type of people who hang around in the Brawl boards, logic usually doesn't work around here.

 

[5150]

5150 you know the type of people who hang around in the Brawl boards, logic usually doesn't work around here.

rofl. i know right?

Although I commend you on putting so much effort into this 5150, I will have to respectfully disagree with your opinion.

What I have a problem with, is how "bare" your theory has become. You have really stripped away everything and anything that Smash is about, and somehow believe that it can all be simplified into 3 tiers (Control, Speed, and Power). To be honest, I find this to be completely ignorant of everything that Smash Bros stands for. Characters in Smash Bros are so complex in the way they can be used, with so many different variables in combat, that its just asinine to base everything a character on 3 tiers.


In my opinion, 3 tiers isn't even remotely close to the amount of tiers needed to describe a character in Smash Bros. I'd wager it would be more along the lines of 50 tiers in order to be even a somewhat accurate prediction of a character... and even then it wouldn't be close since the idea of taking an abstract concept and trying to solidify it is practically impossible.

I mean some blatantly obvious tiers that you are missing are Recovery, Edging Ability, Mobility, Stage Adaptability, Weight, etc... etc... the list literally goes on, and I am sure I could find beyond 50 tiers to rate a character off.

Just with your 3 tiers I can already see problems in them.
Control... You (might I add... poorly) stated that Control is "How a character takes control of a match"... how exactly do you place a VALUE from 1 to 10 on this fluid concept? What makes you so certain that Pikachu has a Control value of 4 instead of 6 or 7 or even 10? How many arguments can you use to back it up? How much value does each of your argument hold? How do you prove that each argument has a certain value with evidence to support it?

Power... What proves that Bowser has the most power? I can guarantee you that Peach doing a Down-Smash on a bad DI'd Fox can cause double damage than a Bowser Foward-Smash. Yet does this make Peach more powerful than Bowser, who is mainly constituted as a "All Power, No Speed" character to begin with? Not to mention, I think most people can agree that Fox has more power than Bowser in all aspects. Just because a characters move does more %, doesn't mean that the character is instantly stronger.

Speed... What exactly are you basing this off? How fast a character runs? How fast a character jumps? What about how high a character jumps? What about how long/short a characters dash is? How about Walking speed? is that not important as well? Wave-dash length has no factor as well? I don't know about you but on Yoshi Island Bowsers can whirling fortress sweet-spot the edge, do their speedy attack recover (probably the fastest edge attack in the game), and then repeat the process in a variety of different ways. They end up getting very quick Bowser, yet why is he so low in the speed department?

It's just a completely slippery situation to actually put numerical values down.


you mention that "we discover a strong use for Dededes Down+B, his Power goes up"

Theres so many variables as to WHY that statement is tremendously wrong. Here I'll list just a FEW reasons why that statement is horribly wrong;

1. How many points does Dededes Power go Up?
2. How did you decide that it goes up X points?
3. Which character opponents does this affect the most?
4. Why does his Power go Up instead of his Control?
5. Why doesn't his Power and Control go up?
6. Why don't the above values factor into how high his power value goes up?

and the list goes on... and on... and on...


There is a reason that we don't base our tier lists off of something like this. You are most certainly NOT the first person to think of putting numerical values on a character. Simply because it's almost impossible for a Human Being to decide on a numerical value in a category for a character, especially with so many different moves and attacks which are all useful in a variety of situations, stages, and against different types of characters.


I also don't know where you pulled out that Peach and Ice Climbers will be high tier. You are literally basing that off of nothing. We have a game demo that has not even had Ice Climbers playable, and we don't even know who the entire roster will be, or how the physics will reacts, or how.... gosh there are SO many variables to consider, it literally is IMPOSSIBLE to make an accusation like that. Similar to your entire essay, you are trying to do something that is almost impossible to do due to the insane amount of factors and variables in the game.



So like I said earlier, I will have to disagree with your entire theory in saying that Smash is all about the Chaotic Game play. Smash isn't a scientific game which requires tons of frame data and pin-point positioning like some other fighting games. Smash isn't about labeling a character with numerical values in order to find its place on a tier list. You could say that A lot of our tier lists are based on "Feel" more than anything (On the contrary though, Tier lists are also dictated by Tournament Results). People feel that Fox is stronger than Bowser and Pikachu, it has nothing to do with numerical values or charts, and we most certainly do not need a chart to prove our point.

So simply put, the chaotic game play of Smash Bros simply makes your entire theory impractical and entirely not worth the effort.


PS: I also must say... you are being quite rude to the majority of the posters.... When they inquire on something in your theory, instead of flaming, you should explain your point of view even further so that they might understand.

you havent read my other posts. quantum mechanics is so incredibly complex yet it can be simplified. ASTOUNDING!!!!

as for all the other sub-tiers you were talking about, most can be simplified into the existing 3 tiers and the others are just negative aspects. weight NEVER helps a character, it either makes a character super combo'd or die super easy.

and i pulled out hte peach and ice climber prediction based on facts we know about the game now. its a prediction. get over it.

also, the numerical value you assign a character is not out of a base amount. its a feeling, just like how the tier list is RIGHT NOW. if we feel bowsers power rating is 6 points better than kirby's then we make his rating 6 points higher. its whatever numerical value we think reflects the level of superiority, its a ratio.

in conclusion, i really hate how people say this game is too complex to be simplified. it really isn't a complex game once you've been playing it for a long enough time. it does come down to those 3 elements, at least in my opinion.

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

you are an upb link. end of discussion.

I know exactly how you feel, but you essentially just called him a ****** again.

Stop doing that, it doesn't help people understand your theory.
He's not going to wake up one morning and go "Wow, I'm a ****** for not accepting 5150's theory that he did close to nothing to back up other than calling people *******."

Even when he learns that spin attack spam and un l-cancelled dair spam isn't the way
to win against good players, or that the airdodge-hookshot beats the spin attack recovery,
he will not magically just accept your theory, especially since when he comes back to
you having mastered those skills, you're just going to call him a ****** again when he asks you to explain it better.

 

[5150]

I know exactly how you feel, but you essentially just called him a ****** again.

Stop doing that, it doesn't help people understand your theory.
He's not going to wake up one morning and go "Wow, I'm a ****** for not accepting 5150's theory that he did close to nothing to back up other than calling people *******."

Even when he learns that spin attack spam and un l-cancelled dair spam isn't the way
to win against good players, or that the airdodge-hookshot beats the spin attack recovery,
he will not magically just accept your theory, especially since when he comes back to
you having mastered those skills, you're just going to call him a ****** again when he asks you to explain it better.

im not your babysitter, this is not high school, and im not holding anyone's hand.

 

[Joka]

So we're trying to find the right definition for control?

 

[5150]

So we're trying to find the right definition for control?

no check op. thats what it is.

 

[NotGiratina]

TC,are you basically saying:

a. that tiers are determined by 3 main values that are combined into an area,the higher that is the higher they are on the tier list?

b. that tiers should be divided into 3 seperate lists?

 

[Egret]

thanks for your reply, but i respectfully will tell you you dont know what you are talking about. you are an upb link. end of discussion.

I'll sacrifice the point of my original post by explaining it but the first few lines of my post were a parody of the people who are posting here many of whom I assume are upb spammmers.

 

[5150]

TC,are you basically saying:

a. that tiers are determined by 3 main values that are combined into an area,the higher that is the higher they are on the tier list?

b. that tiers should be divided into 3 seperate lists?

very close.

part a is right but part b isnt.

i propose using tier graphs, which show a character's tier triangle. not only would this graph be useful for seeing how a character plays, not only how good it is, but also it MIGHT be possible to get some relationships between diff char triangles and their distances / occupied spaces.

 

[Card]

you havent read my other posts. quantum mechanics is so incredibly complex yet it can be simplified. ASTOUNDING!!!!

Quantum Mechanics... a Theory first developped in the 1800's, and continued to be researched and theorized until the late 1900's by the combined effort some of the most brilliant human beings to even walk the Earth..

You want to compare THAT to YOUR inane theory which you probably just thought up yesterday night while sitting in front of your computer?

HAH! Don't make me laugh...

as for all the other sub-tiers you were talking about, most can be simplified into the existing 3 tiers and the others are just negative aspects. weight NEVER helps a character, it either makes a character super combo'd or die super easy.

First of all; I did not even BEGIN to divulge into the amount of tiers that are in Smash Bros.
Quite frankly since this debate is being done with a person of your caliber and attitude, it simply is not worth my time to write up an entire list.

Secondly; Just for kicks, since I know you will not respond to almost all the points in my previous post, and you probably won't respond to any points in this post. I figure I'd say a point that you would probably answer.

Tell me how Stage Adaptability fits into Either Power, Control, or Speed?

I'll even be nice and give you a hint as to how I will counter whatever argument you are going to reply with. I'll say Ice Climbers Wave-Dash and Jungle Japes as a keyword for you.

Thirdly, Weight never helps a character? are you kidding?

Peach and Samus are considered to be the best "Stock" Tanks in 2v2 matches entirely because of their "Floaty yet Heavy" mechanic. How does Weight NOT effect their status on the tier list, not to mention their status on the 2v2 Tier list (Afterall, you do mention using your theory when selecting partners in doubles)

and i pulled out hte peach and ice climber prediction based on facts we know about the game now. its a prediction. get over it.

Yea, you pulled out the prediction that is horrendously wrong, yet you somehow felt it was important to state it.

On a sidenote;
Give me 10 facts about Ice Climbers that we know in Smash Brawl, as to why they will be Top Tier. After all you seem to know tons of facts on the Brawl-version of Ice Climbers.
1)
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)

also, the numerical value you assign a character is not out of a base amount. its a feeling, just like how the tier list is RIGHT NOW. if we feel bowsers power rating is 6 points better than kirby's then we make his rating 6 points higher. its whatever numerical value we think reflects the level of superiority, its a ratio.

How on earth do you put a Numerical Value on a Feeling? THAT IS MY EXACT POINT.
Is there a bubble over your head that shows your feelings, and you stick your hand in there and pull out a value of how much its worth? It's simply impossible to do.

in conclusion, i really hate how people say this game is too complex to be simplified. it really isn't a complex game once you've been playing it for a long enough time. it does come down to those 3 elements, at least in my opinion.

I'm here to tell you that you are wrong. This is a very complex game, with many complex variables and factors to go with it. But until you decide to stop being so egotistical about your own theory and take some time to read over all the points I made in my thread, this debate will go no where.

 

[kainsword]

Your own proposed tier grading system is not another form of politics. Get off your high-horse and realize your whole first post is only a character creation theory. You weren't in the Melee Development Team, so you have no factual reason for why you are right and everyone else is wrong. You've attacked people consistently for viewing the game in a slightly different way than you. Frankly, it's about time Bruce Lee DownSmashed you to HFIL.

 

[LukewarmHoliday]

yeah its not like tiers don't exist in fighting games its just its not detailed enough if you just rank names from top to bottom. sometimes 1 character trait can dominate another's weakness even though hes lower tier.

 

[Takumaru]

im not your babysitter, this is not high school, and im not holding anyone's hand.

Shoot, and I needed someone to watch my brother tomorrow...

Anyway, back to the topic at hand: I think you have a legitimate position on melee even though it's simplified. Now there are some player related factors into the tier list but what you said does describe the current tier list in a nut shell.

 

[S_B]

Usually the troll doesn't start the thread.

Now I've seen everything...

 

[5150]

Quantum Mechanics... a Theory first developped in the 1800's, and continued to be researched and theorized until the late 1900's by the combined effort some of the most brilliant human beings to even walk the Earth..

You want to compare THAT to YOUR inane theory which you probably just thought up yesterday night while sitting in front of your computer?

HAH! Don't make me laugh...

i didn't say smash was quantum mechanics. you need to read better. i said smash is complex but can still be summarized rather effectively to the point of POSSIBLE predictions. the same can be said about quantum mechanics. no one said i was in a lab smashing atoms together and mapping their resultant trajectories.

First of all; I did not even BEGIN to divulge into the amount of tiers that are in Smash Bros.
Quite frankly since this debate is being done with a person of your caliber and attitude, it simply is not worth my time to write up an entire list.

Secondly; Just for kicks, since I know you will not respond to almost all the points in my previous post, and you probably won't respond to any points in this post. I figure I'd say a point that you would probably answer.

Tell me how Stage Adaptability fits into Either Power, Control, or Speed?

I'll even be nice and give you a hint as to how I will counter whatever argument you are going to reply with. I'll say Ice Climbers Wave-Dash and Jungle Japes as a keyword for you.

Thirdly, Weight never helps a character? are you kidding?

Peach and Samus are considered to be the best "Stock" Tanks in 2v2 matches entirely because of their "Floaty yet Heavy" mechanic. How does Weight NOT effect their status on the tier list, not to mention their status on the 2v2 Tier list (Afterall, you do mention using your theory when selecting partners in doubles)

stage adaptibility is not an issue. the tier list does not compensate for stages like mute city or brinstar. it is based off of fighting ability on neutrals. you should know this. its disappointing that you dont.

and when i talked about weight i was inevitably talking about the upwards ko formula, which has never been fully disclosed but involves weight and fall speed. i bet you peach and samus players wont ever brag about what fox does to them with his uair and usmash. and they are "stock tanks" because of their recovery, not weight. but their recovery is not apart of their actual playstyle, its just something that fights off other character's advantages.

Yea, you pulled out the prediction that is horrendously wrong, yet you somehow felt it was important to state it.

heres the problem with people liek you. you will say im horrendously wrong on a PREDICTION, but your prediction is just as qualified as mine, probably less tbh.
On a sidenote;

Give me 10 facts about Ice Climbers that we know in Smash Brawl, as to why they will be Top Tier. After all you seem to know tons of facts on the Brawl-version of Ice Climbers.
1)
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)

ill give you one and it is enough to think he could be top tier or even banned

1) freeze frames are crazy long

this leads to super easy wobbling

the problem is that we dont know how ic's grabs have changed. but thats how predictions work. we take the status quo and apply what changes we KNOW about and make a prediction. you really have a problem with this dont you?

How on earth do you put a Numerical Value on a Feeling? THAT IS MY EXACT POINT.
Is there a bubble over your head that shows your feelings, and you stick your hand in there and pull out a value of how much its worth? It's simply impossible to do.



I'm here to tell you that you are wrong. This is a very complex game, with many complex variables and factors to go with it. But until you decide to stop being so egotistical about your own theory and take some time to read over all the points I made in my thread, this debate will go no where.

you could argue the same about the tier list! "HOW CAN YOU PUT KIRBY AFTER BOWSER EACH HAS VERY DIFFERENT MATCHUPS AND ARE VERY DIFFERENT CHARACTERS THERE ARE TOO MANY VARIABLES!!!"

if we accept the tier list we have now then we surely can accept the one im proposing.

Your own proposed tier grading system is not another form of politics. Get off your high-horse and realize your whole first post is only a character creation theory. You weren't in the Melee Development Team, so you have no factual reason for why you are right and everyone else is wrong. You've attacked people consistently for viewing the game in a slightly different way than you. Frankly, it's about time Bruce Lee DownSmashed you to HFIL.

no one said it was a factual essay. its not a thesis. JESUS CHRIST PEOPLE. ITS AN ARTICLE ON MY VIEWPOINT. TRYING TO MAKE ME FEEL BAD BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT I BELIEVE WILL NOT WORK!!!!!!

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

i propose using tier graphs, which show a character's tier triangle. not only would this graph be useful for seeing how a character plays, not only how good it is, but also it MIGHT be possible to get some relationships between diff char triangles and their distances / occupied spaces.

Dragonball Z used a heptgonal chart.
The source code of smash is WAY more complex than Budokai,
so it should at least use an octagonal chart. The more sides to the chart, the more accurate
match predictions can become. Using a simple triangle is FAR too inaccurate, especially
with such vague quantities as "speed", "power" and "control".

Also, you likened this to physics, (ignoring minor details to get an accurate prediction of an experiment.) like I'm some kind of fourth grader.

Let's talk physics.

<physics>

(assuming acceleration due to gravity is 10m/s/s, and no air resistance)

You drop a ball (starting at 0m/s) from a height of 3 metres.
We can predict the speed the ball will hit the ground at, using the formula v^2 = u^2 + (2*acceleration*distance).

The ball hits the ground at 7.7m/s.

</physics>

Now, HOW is ignoring 70% of what makes Smash so unique, similar to ignoring something
as trivial as air resistance or rounding acceleration due to gravity by 0.2m/s/s???

Smash is not the kind of thing you can liken to an experiment with such a simple outcome, nor can Power, speed and control be divided up into numbers.

You will NEVER be able to predict the outcome of every match 100% of the time, even when two players are at the exact same skill level, from something as simple as a graph with only THREE sides.

ALSO:

no one said it was a factual essay. its not a thesis.

It's in your ****ing thread title.

 

[5150]

Dragonball Z used a heptgonal chart.
The source code of smash is WAY more complex than Budokai,
so it should at least use an octagonal chart. The more sides to the chart, the more accurate
match predictions can become. Using a simple triangle is FAR too inaccurate, especially
with such vague quantities as "speed", "power" and "control".

no because it was hard coded into the game. this would nto be hard coded, it would be a competitive assessment, not a direct reflection from within the game.

Also, you likened this to physics, (ignoring minor details to get an accurate prediction of an experiment.) like I'm some kind of fourth grader.

Let's talk physics.

<physics>

(assuming acceleration due to gravity is 10m/s/s, and no air resistance)

You drop a ball (starting at 0m/s) from a height of 3 metres.
We can predict the speed the ball will hit the ground at, using the formula v^2 = u^2 + (2*acceleration*distance).

The ball hits the ground at 7.7m/s.

</physics>

Now, HOW is ignoring 70% of what makes Smash so unique, similar to ignoring something
as trivial as air resistance or rounding acceleration due to gravity by 0.2m/s/s???

well im gonna thank you for that AMAZING display of physics and then scold you for thinking that because you know how to do one of the golden projectile equations you can draw the conclusion that im ignoring the physics engine. the engine is incorporated perfectly into the 3 categories. you shoudl be able to see that.

Smash is not the kind of thing you can liken to an experiment with such a simple outcome, nor can Power, speed and control be divided up into numbers.

You will NEVER be able to predict the outcome of every match 100% of the time, even when two players are at the exact same skill level, from something as simple as a graph with only THREE sides.

no one said id be able to predict the outcome 100% of the time. we cant even do that with the weather and we've been on the earth for thousands and thousands of years.

so basically right now you have just become a naysayer. that's fine, we all have been a naysayer at some point. but instead of just ranting about how smash is too complex, i would try and learn more about the game or get better or go to tournaments.

ALSO:



It's in your ****ing thread title.

essay =/= "factual essay"

an essay can be an evaluation, and an evaluation can be subjective. but ill change title AGAIN so brawl disc doesnt get confused.

 

[Card]

i didn't say smash was quantum mechanics. you need to read better. i said smash is complex but can still be summarized rather effectively to the point of POSSIBLE predictions. the same can be said about quantum mechanics. no one said i was in a lab smashing atoms together and mapping their resultant trajectories.

If anyone needs to learn to read its you.

Here I'll make it really simple for you;
- You said "quantum mechanics is so incredibly complex yet it can be simplified. ASTOUNDING!!!!"
- Then I said that it took the most brilliant people on the planet over 150 years to simplify something that Complex. Yet you thought you could simplify Smash in 1 night.
- You seem to not understand my point, then make a false accusation against me.

The point was that Smash cannot be simplified in a short amount of time, and especially not by the likes of you.

stage adaptibility is not an issue. the tier list does not compensate for stages like mute city or brinstar. it is based off of fighting ability on neutrals. you should know this. its disappointing that you dont.

Stage Adaptibility is NOT an issue?
So when Peaches take Dreamland because of the wide sides, and when Falcos take Final Destination because of the Flat Surface, its completely not an issue right?

Wrong. Stage Adaptibility is a VERY important factor in Smash. Probably one of the main reasons Ice Climbers have not climbed the tier list even though Wobbling has become globally accepted, is because Ice Climbers have very POOR stage adaptibility. Counter-Pick them on many stages and they suffer greatly.

While we are on this, Where have you heard this where the Tier list is based entirely off Neutrals? Please find me a post of a Tier List creator explaining this. I have never heard this, because Counter-Picks are an EXTREMELY advantageous strategy in tournament play, both Character AND Level.

and when i talked about weight i was inevitably talking about the upwards ko formula

That was really clear, like the way you described "Control" to everyone in the thread, and then proceeded to call everyone ******* who didn't understand you.

Now, putting that comment aside; WHY is the Side KO Formula NOT taken into account?

, which has never been fully disclosed but involves weight and fall speed. i bet you peach and samus players wont ever brag about what fox does to them with his uair and usmash.

Oh right, Fox U-Airs Peach and Samus for easy kills, yet Bowser cannot do the same. Not only can Bowser not do the same, but Bowser (according to your list) has MORE Power than Fox.

I've already found a contradiction, and you just listed 3 characters. I'm certain that if I took the time, I could find a boatload more of contradictions.

and they are "stock tanks" because of their recovery, not weight.

No, They are Stock Tanks because of their Weight COMBINED with their Recovery. Ganondorf easily lasts longer than both Samus and Peach, but because his recovery is much easier to edge, he isn't considered as much of a Stock Tank as those two women.

but their recovery is not apart of their actual playstyle, its just something that fights off other character's advantages.

Say what? I can't believe you would totally disregard a characters ability to recover when trying to create a Tier list. How their recovery is not a part of their actual play style...

I mean jeez... Good thing you aren't the one creating our official tier lists.

heres the problem with people liek you. you will say im horrendously wrong on a PREDICTION, but your prediction is just as qualified as mine, probably less tbh.

No, My Prediction is 100% Correct. Want to know why? Because I predict that it is impossible to make a prediction based on a game that has not even been released yet.

ill give you one and it is enough to think he could be top tier or even banned

1) freeze frames are crazy long

this leads to super easy wobbling

the problem is that we dont know how ic's grabs have changed. but thats how predictions work. we take the status quo and apply what changes we KNOW about and make a prediction. you really have a problem with this dont you?

Yea you know what, I'm just gonna drop this because the comment you made in your original post about them was just stupid. I don't even want to bother continuing to discuss them.

you could argue the same about the tier list! "HOW CAN YOU PUT KIRBY AFTER BOWSER EACH HAS VERY DIFFERENT MATCHUPS AND ARE VERY DIFFERENT CHARACTERS THERE ARE TOO MANY VARIABLES!!!"

I said this in my first post, which you seem to have ignored completely. Tournament Standings comes heavily into effect when Tier lists are made.


Now that that is said, How about you go back to my first post and address all the questions I asked you which you seemed to just "avoid".

 

[5150]

If anyone needs to learn to read its you.

Here I'll make it really simple for you;
- You said "quantum mechanics is so incredibly complex yet it can be simplified. ASTOUNDING!!!!"
- Then I said that it took the most brilliant people on the planet over 150 years to simplify something that Complex. Yet you thought you could simplify Smash in 1 night.
- You seem to not understand my point, then make a false accusation against me.

The point was that Smash cannot be simplified in a short amount of time, and especially not by the likes of you.

well see thats not an actual arguement, thats just you being a hater lol.

Stage Adaptibility is NOT an issue?
So when Peaches take Dreamland because of the wide sides, and when Falcos take Final Destination because of the Flat Surface, its completely not an issue right?

Wrong. Stage Adaptibility is a VERY important factor in Smash. Probably one of the main reasons Ice Climbers have not climbed the tier list even though Wobbling has become globally accepted, is because Ice Climbers have very POOR stage adaptibility. Counter-Pick them on many stages and they suffer greatly.

While we are on this, Where have you heard this where the Tier list is based entirely off Neutrals? Please find me a post of a Tier List creator explaining this. I have never heard this, because Counter-Picks are an EXTREMELY advantageous strategy in tournament play, both Character AND Level.

this is a matter of experience, something you just dont have. tiers are based off of a characters innate ability to fight on the neutrals. its a list of what tools (characters) are the best overall. you'll just have to go to tournaments to udnerstand this. and btw the current tier list already incorporates teh neutral 6 stages so that whole reference about falco and peach are unnecessary.

That was really clear, like the way you described "Control" to everyone in the thread, and then proceeded to call everyone ******* who didn't understand you.

like ive said 1000x this wasnt meant for people of brawl discussion caliber. i made a mistake in this.

Now, putting that comment aside; WHY is the Side KO Formula NOT taken into account?

it's just an element of recovery, which isn't actually apart of a character's playstyle. ive said this before. recovery is just a counteracting force to another character's ko'ing ability, or power.

Oh right, Fox U-Airs Peach and Samus for easy kills, yet Bowser cannot do the same. Not only can Bowser not do the same, but Bowser (according to your list) has MORE Power than Fox.

bowser can actually kill lower than fox can. thats why his power is higher. the problem is he doesnt have the speed to get there and people have to makea mistake in order to go into it. i used to be a bowser main. i know.

I've already found a contradiction, and you just listed 3 characters. I'm certain that if I took the time, I could find a boatload more of contradictions.

lol dont keep trying you're just wasting your time looking like a simpleton.

No, They are Stock Tanks because of their Weight COMBINED with their Recovery. Ganondorf easily lasts longer than both Samus and Peach, but because his recovery is much easier to edge, he isn't considered as much of a Stock Tank as those two women.

actually, false. does not last as long because he gets gimped. thats how you SHOULD be killing him anyways.

Say what? I can't believe you would totally disregard a characters ability to recover when trying to create a Tier list. How their recovery is not a part of their actual play style...

I mean jeez... Good thing you aren't the one creating our official tier lists.

i know its too complex for you. but ill say it one more time. when you are ACTUALLY fighting, recovery doesnt come into play. it doesnt determine who wins a fight on the stage. it determines whether or not the result of that fight is gg or whether its an rm.

No, My Prediction is 100% Correct. Want to know why? Because I predict that it is impossible to make a prediction based on a game that has not even been released yet.



Yea you know what, I'm just gonna drop this because the comment you made in your original post about them was just stupid. I don't even want to bother continuing to discuss them.




I said this in my first post, which you seem to have ignored completely. Tournament Standings comes heavily into effect when Tier lists are made.


Now that that is said, How about you go back to my first post and address all the questions I asked you which you seemed to just "avoid".

#1 not going back in posts. im sure i addressed enough of this pile.

#2 you are just another "THE GAME IS TOO EARLY I AM PMS'ING" ******s. its a PREDICTION. dont let my PREDICTION undo your bootstraps and make you trip.

#3 tournament standings DO come into account. DUH. look at my example with fox in op. ******.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

While I think you have done a tremendous job with the first post, 5150, I'm sorry to say that I fully agree with Card. In fact, I was going to make Card's exact post before he did himself, so I'm sure I'm not alone in my opinion.

Don't get me wrong, I think this would be awesome if it were feasible. But the implementation and creation of these values, among other things, leave me to doubt this could actually work.

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

the engine is incorporated perfectly into the 3 categories. you shoudl be able to see that.

Yes, the engine fits three categories. But not those three alone. It also fits more.

ALSO, you say Fox "controls" the match with shine, and Marth "controls" the match with grab range? I thought you said Fox was a speed type!

This is purely down to the skill of the character's user!

A good BOWSER can "control" the match with flame cancel and f-air. Have you seen Gimpy play? I'm sure if Ken and Isai decided to invest their time learning Bowser, Bowser would be regarded as one of the best characters in the game, and would be a frequent tournament winner.
A good DK can "control" the match by having a fully charged giant punch, it keeps enemies on their toes. The same can be said for samus.

Peach can control the match with turnips, while Mewtwo can't really control much at all.
He was intended for item use clearly, as he has broken dashes and smashes.

EDIT: I'm now fully backing card. He's arguing his points much better than me. And you can't seem to do anything other downplaying everything I say with "NO U", "NO IT ISNT" or "ur a ****** lolz".

 

[flyinfilipino]

Well then I guess we have another ******...

 

[Card]

#1 not going back in posts. im sure i addressed enough of this pile.

#2 you are just another "THE GAME IS TOO EARLY I AM PMS'ING" ******s. its a PREDICTION. dont let my PREDICTION undo your bootstraps and make you trip.

#3 tournament standings DO come into account. DUH. look at my example with fox in op. ******.

I am done.

I saw that this thread was created by you, skeptical to begin with, I somehow felt that I would be able to carry on a civilized debate in regards to your theory, with the goal in mind of actually improving on it and coming to ultimately a better thesis with a stronger foundation.

Clearly... I was wrong... dead wrong.


Since the first sentence of your first reply to my respectful opinion, (literally... when you acted like a complete smart alec with the Quantum Mechanics phrase) I knew there was no way to debate with you. So with that, instead of wasting both our time, I am just going to drop it..

When you find out that your theory never catches on because of its adherent flaws, don't say that I didn't warn you.

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

When you find out that your theory never catches on because of its adherent flaws, don't say that I didn't warn you.

No no, his system is "flawless", you are "PMSING" and anyone that can't see this is a "******".

 

[S_B]

Isn't this trolling?

I mean, creating a thread and then lambasting every second post and its author in the thread is a textbook troll, right?

This isn't a theory seeking refinement so much as a troll guising his anger and rudeness as "logical discourse".

 

[Habanero Pepper]

I really really found this to be a good read.

but then you had to crap it up man, seriously. I'm dissapointed that you couldn't just act mature in your responses.

 

[Undrdog]

I think it's still around because it is in fact the most intelligent thread the Brawl Room has ever seen.

 

[Blue sHell]

Hah, awesome 5150.

I remember about last year I made a little mental list of characters into three groups similar to yours, but instead of "control" I had those characters you speak of under the catogory of "stoppers" which basically means a playstyle based on making the opponent do less and you overwhelming them with certain "stopper" moves. Samus is a perfect example of a stopper, and Fox's shine after aerials to avoid getting grabbed is also a stopper. But now that I think about it "control" is a better way of putting it.

Knowing this, the more and more I learned about brawl the more I saw that Sakurai was basically making characters almost into playing cards where he didn't want to raise a certain aspect about the characters too much in fear of unbalance. This is how I broke it down in my head:

EXAMPLE<======= STFU ITS AN EXAMPLE <============= WARNING

BOWSER
Power: 8
Speed: 3
Control(changed to control for the sake of you understanding): 4
Total: 15

METAKNIGHT
Power: 3
Speed: 6
Control: 6
Total: 15

It seemed to me that Sakurai was trying to give everyone a balanced amount of things to work with and not give any certain character any more power, control, or speed that they didn't need. Don't think for a second that this is failsafe though. At any given moment a move given to a character by Sakurai which he thought would make the character overall improved might be useless once advanced players learn the game more. For example Sakurai thought giving Link UpB in Melee would be his saving grace in the fact that not only was he an outstanding control character but he has some power through some moves too... but after players got brighter overtime, UpB's usefullness was VERY VERY lowered and was just considered a good surprise kill, which in term dropped Link in usefullness altogether because UpB seemed to be given to him as.. you know.. THE MOVE.

============================================

In Brawl, some characters are going to be really really good. They're going to go over the supposive 15limit that I used in my example because people know how to exploit cerrtain things. I COMPLETELY know why you think Peach will be possibly Top next game because in all reality anyone that knows what to look for could see that she has power, speed, and control in huge huge huge amounts(float canceling still in DSmash still in(it doesn't matter that it doesn't kill anymore, if you know how to play Peach you'd know why)).

============================================================================================

Dude, what I propose is that you and a couple of other people that know what they are talking about put their foot down and follow through on your idea for making Brawl's tier list in the form of measuring they're area covered between the 3 elements. It REALLY woulnd't be that hard. SERIOUSLY.

What I'd do(throw in your suggestion if you have a better idea) is find the average percentage at which characters kill amounce all the characters. Lets say that percentage is 100% for the sake of making this example easier to comprehend. To measure strength all we'd do is see how far from this average percent that the character kills. If lets say Mario kills at exactly 100% then he would have medium strength(I'd make the same chart you did but I'm lazy after typing all this). Ike killing at about 60 percentage would have an extremely high rating in strength. And so on.

For speed we measure the average speed of killer and combo moves and do the same.
And for control it'd be alot more tricky, $hi-t. Um, I guess we could determine how comboable or useful they are and give a rough estimate.

Overall this way of making the game's next tier list would lower complaints from "zOMG no Tires" people. And make it a more realistic chart to look at. Better than the estimated(well estimated, but estimated nonetheless) tier list we have for melee.


But overall you have to realize that survivalability seems to be a HUGE part of this game too. Some people's recoverys suck and some characters like Bowser live forever.
Even in Melee people debate that if it wasn't for Falco's crappy recovery that he'd take the number1 slot. Surviving is a big deal. And I'm not sure if difference in fall speed is too spaced out next game like it was in Melee(lets hope it was like Melee), then that too makes a big difference. You can't place fall speed and survivalability under the three elements I've stated so I'd suggest if you do plan on furthering your ideas that you really consider these things.

that was all directed toward 5150. If you feel like commenting on it go right on ahead, but please think before you type. Thankyou.

PS: Even those I do respect your ideas, you are being really rude to those that don't, dude.

 

[Phillip Chanter]

I think it's still around because it is in fact the most intelligent thread the Brawl Room has ever seen.

Now if that ain't the understatement of the year...

Anywho, I ain't got anything intelligent to say except for this:

5150: Don't turn this into anymore of a pi$sing contest than you already have. If you feel like somebody has contributed something not as intelligent like you would have hoped for, then don't respond to them calling them ignorant ****ers or whatever the hell you think is cleaver. Ignore them and act like an adult and not a child.

Or just completely disregard any positive advice I give you, continue acting like an *** and get your thread closed, your choice really, I'm not a mod after all.

 

[5150]

While I think you have done a tremendous job with the first post, 5150, I'm sorry to say that I fully agree with Card. In fact, I was going to make Card's exact post before he did himself, so I'm sure I'm not alone in my opinion.

Don't get me wrong, I think this would be awesome if it were feasible. But the implementation and creation of these values, among other things, leave me to doubt this could actually work.

thank you for this post. this is all i wanted in terms of replies. i didnt need bull****. i think it's perfectly normal to disagree with me on how I THINK sakurai is acting adn how i think the tier list could change. thats fine. but i have a problem with 5150 haters trying to break down my ideas because i am 5150 or because they THINK im actually giving hard facts. im not. im giving my viewpoint and my predictions. ive had to recite this at least 20 times in this thread alone. honestly i would have NO PROBLEM with this being closed and deleted. at least card wouldnt be so embarassed later on.

Yes, the engine fits three categories. But not those three alone. It also fits more.

ALSO, you say Fox "controls" the match with shine, and Marth "controls" the match with grab range? I thought you said Fox was a speed type!

This is purely down to the skill of the character's user!

A good BOWSER can "control" the match with flame cancel and f-air. Have you seen Gimpy play? I'm sure if Ken and Isai decided to invest their time learning Bowser, Bowser would be regarded as one of the best characters in the game, and would be a frequent tournament winner.
A good DK can "control" the match by having a fully charged giant punch, it keeps enemies on their toes. The same can be said for samus.

Peach can control the match with turnips, while Mewtwo can't really control much at all.
He was intended for item use clearly, as he has broken dashes and smashes.

EDIT: I'm now fully backing card. He's arguing his points much better than me. And you can't seem to do anything other downplaying everything I say with "NO U", "NO IT ISNT" or "ur a ****** lolz".

see i dont nee dpeople like you replying. this is what happens when ignorance runs rampant. you dont read my other posts or cant comprehend them. gg.

Well then I guess we have another ******...

gg

I am done.

I saw that this thread was created by you, skeptical to begin with, I somehow felt that I would be able to carry on a civilized debate in regards to your theory, with the goal in mind of actually improving on it and coming to ultimately a better thesis with a stronger foundation.

Clearly... I was wrong... dead wrong.


Since the first sentence of your first reply to my respectful opinion, (literally... when you acted like a complete smart alec with the Quantum Mechanics phrase) I knew there was no way to debate with you. So with that, instead of wasting both our time, I am just going to drop it..

When you find out that your theory never catches on because of its adherent flaws, don't say that I didn't warn you.

lol so basically you just admitted, you are a 5150 hater and all you came to do here was hate. you REALLY had no intention of improving anything. i could have said "water tastes good" and you would have said "no soda is better". its terribly ironic how people can hate me, yet act 10x worse than i do ROFL.

I think it's still around because it is in fact the most intelligent thread the Brawl Room has ever seen.

thank you.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

here is a trend I've noticed whenever 5150 makes a post.

*posts*

Waaah!

Waaah!

Waaah!

Waaah!

QFT.
10chars

Eventually, Poster R or something says something worthwhile.

Note: This does not apply to the Midwest forums/

Anyway, this thread is genius. That's all I have to say.

 

[Replacement100]

I know that this is ressing a dead post, but eh.

fox's uair can kill at 90 near the ground on some stages and as low as 50-60 near the top. i think thats fair to say it's a kill move and is good enough to be used otherwise but it's primary purpose is to kill and rack massive damage in fast hits

Jesus H. Christ. Are you ********?
Okay, let's take this Fox guide
It, and pretty much every other guide you'll see on Fox say this:

Although it is possible to use a shuffled up-aerial as a launcher, out of a
shield or otherwise, its main purpose is (obviously) as an often-lethal
juggler. Your two main launchers for up-aerial juggling are the up-throw and
the up-smash

It may be able to kil leasily, but it is so obviously a juggling move.
If you need more evidence, here - have a video featuring Neo (as Roy) and RockCrock (as Fox).
From about 1:20, to 1:30 - Fox uses this move in attempts to juggle Roy.
Here's another featuring Reed as a Roy, and Foxy as Fox. It even counts the Uairs (Gets to around 13 in the first battle... doesn't count them in the second)
Most of those first 13 are juggling. Of the second battle, the same trend is apparent. THe move is used for mainly juggling.

actually no because you can measure the color of the sky, dimwit. you still are spouting your opinion as if it is better than mine, which it CLEARLY isn't.

I didn't mean "There's something wrong with your eyes.", I meant the common philosophical question "What if you grew up, believing that the colour blue, is green". Sorry for using philosophies that even a child could understand. Thanks for giving me a laugh.

that would not be "quantified".

If you're making up word meanings again, oh no. I assume that you're using quantified as a synonym for measured, assessed, etc. Measuring and assessing give value to a statement, so let's run with that.
Now, you can't assess what Sakurai is doing, by asking him?
You can't assign a value to a statement, by getting proof?
"Hey Sakurai! Why did you put Shiek into the game?"
"To contrast Zelda, and to give Zelda a chance against faster enemies!"
If the above happened - my statement would gain the value of 1 - True.

so this is what i love. i get accused of elitism, but then **** like this happens? and for what, because he doesnt agree with many of the viewpoints i have? so ironic its ridiculous.

No smoke without fire.

i did not "make up" anything. everything i posted is common knowledge to people who know this game and 64. it's honestly just you *****ing about how i didnt baby you, and i dont have time for that.

Yet you have time to fight a losing battle. Clap.... clap.... clap...
Please. Just indulge me.

 

[5150]

replacement100: refer to 56k's post

also, fox can use uair for both kill and juggling, but ask a fox how he kills most shieks or marths and its "uair" or "usmash".


btw thx 56k, for noticing this trend of *****ing that seems to follow in the wake of my posts.

 

[Kittah4]

thank you for this post. this is all i wanted in terms of replies. i didnt need bull****. i think it's perfectly normal to disagree with me on how I THINK sakurai is acting adn how i think the tier list could change. thats fine. but i have a problem with 5150 haters trying to break down my ideas because i am 5150 or because they THINK im actually giving hard facts. im not. im giving my viewpoint and my predictions. ive had to recite this at least 20 times in this thread alone. honestly i would have NO PROBLEM with this being closed and deleted. at least card wouldnt be so embarassed later on.

Hm. SamuraiPanda said he was going to post precisely what Card did. Yet you flamed Card and not the moderator. How deliciously predictable.

In fact I think I've only seen you be civil in a disagreement to SamuraiPanda. I guess it's easy to be a "hater" when you're making it so easy to see through you.

 

[MookieRah]

@5150: Wow... just wow. It's amazing how so many people hate you and let that bias corrupt the thread. Honestly, if you sent me this post and told to post it, we'd see a much different reaction to how people took it. Anyways, as always your cantankerous nature has led to your credibility being destroyed by a lot of people. Next time explain a lot of things that people would tend to not understand and ignore people that say stuff that is offtopic. If it becomes a problem contact a mod or something, and we'll get on it.

@the haters: 5150 used a lot of terms and described things in a way that makes sense for competitive players. I had absolutely no problems understanding what he was saying about anything in his first post. To assume that he is an idiot just because you don't understand it, or that your view of it is much better when most of the naysayers are people I've never heard of competitively, is ignorant. 5150 is rude as balls, but he knows what he is talking about most of the time.

Onto the actual topic:
Excellent post. It's a good way to think about it. I find it funny how a lot of people are talking about how complex the game is and how you can't do that, yet we can generalize a tier list that is pretty accurate. Basically, from what you are saying, that this structured approach is merely a means to explain the tiers after the fact based on 3 factors. Seriously, I don't see why so many people think that is impossible, dumb, or ect.

I do disagree with your statement on the IC's. Yeah, assuming the status quo, they would have easier wobbles. That will affect things; however, there is no wavedash. Wavedashing was great for the IC's cause it allowed them to move around quickly AND stay together. When you run around and stuff Nana becomes ******** and extremely vulnerable. All in all, the easy wobbles won't make up for the fact that Nana would be easily seperated or KOed.

Also, with Peach. Gimpy said a lot of inaccurate things about her. I used to think she was omega broke too, based on what he said, but if you go check the Peach forums of Brawl you'll see some more solid info. The only difference between that info and the latest Brawl information is that it seems they added DJC with her in later demos.

Hm. SamuraiPanda said he was going to post precisely what Card did. Yet you flamed Card and not the moderator. How deliciously predictable.

In fact I think I've only seen you be civil in a disagreement to SamuraiPanda. I guess it's easy to be a "hater" when you're making it so easy to see through you.

What good does this do the thread to point this out? How is this on topic or even progressing the thread? Why does this even matter? Why are you debating this in the first place?

Ask yourself these things please. Stop antagonizing 5150.

 

[5150]

@5150: Wow... just wow. It's amazing how so many people hate you and let that bias corrupt the thread. Honestly, if you sent me this post and told to post it, we'd see a much different reaction to how people took it. Anyways, as always your cantankerous nature has led to your credibility being destroyed by a lot of people. Next time explain a lot of things that people would tend to not understand and ignore people that say stuff that is offtopic. If it becomes a problem contact a mod or something, and we'll get on it.

@the haters: 5150 used a lot of terms and described things in a way that makes sense for competitive players. I had absolutely no problems understanding what he was saying about anything in his first post. To assume that he is an idiot just because you don't understand it, or that your view of it is much better when most of the naysayers are people I've never heard of competitively, is ignorant. 5150 is rude as balls, but he knows what he is talking about most of the time.

Onto the actual topic:
Excellent post. It's a good way to think about it. I find it funny how a lot of people are talking about how complex the game is and how you can't do that, yet we can generalize a tier list that is pretty accurate. Basically, from what you are saying, that this structured approach is merely a means to explain the tiers after the fact based on 3 factors. Seriously, I don't see why so many people think that is impossible, dumb, or ect.

I do disagree with your statement on the IC's. Yeah, assuming the status quo, they would have easier wobbles. That will affect things; however, there is no wavedash. Wavedashing was great for the IC's cause it allowed them to move around quickly AND stay together. When you run around and stuff Nana becomes ******** and extremely vulnerable. All in all, the easy wobbles won't make up for the fact that Nana would be easily seperated or KOed.

Also, with Peach. Gimpy said a lot of inaccurate things about her. I used to think she was omega broke too, based on what he said, but if you go check the Peach forums of Brawl you'll see some more solid info. The only difference between that info and the latest Brawl information is that it seems they added DJC with her in later demos.

thank you mookierah. to be completely honest i was waiting for you to respond because you're the only real opinion i cared about, rofl. it's good that you can see past all the bs haters. and i love how i posted the same thing you did about our current tier list being the same generalizations yet no one listened to it. oh well, i guess that's why you are the MOOKIERAH, slayer of ignorance.

 

[dark_Illusion_hokage]

I agree with this in every way.

 

[Kittah4]

@5150: Wow... just wow. It's amazing how so many people hate you and let that bias corrupt the thread. Honestly, if you sent me this post and told to post it, we'd see a much different reaction to how people took it. Anyways, as always your cantankerous nature has led to your credibility being destroyed by a lot of people. Next time explain a lot of things that people would tend to not understand and ignore people that say stuff that is offtopic. If it becomes a problem contact a mod or something, and we'll get on it.

@the haters: 5150 used a lot of terms and described things in a way that makes sense for competitive players. I had absolutely no problems understanding what he was saying about anything in his first post. To assume that he is an idiot just because you don't understand it, or that your view of it is much better when most of the naysayers are people I've never heard of competitively, is ignorant. 5150 is rude as balls, but he knows what he is talking about most of the time.

Onto the actual topic:
Excellent post. It's a good way to think about it. I find it funny how a lot of people are talking about how complex the game is and how you can't do that, yet we can generalize a tier list that is pretty accurate. Basically, from what you are saying, that this structured approach is merely a means to explain the tiers after the fact based on 3 factors. Seriously, I don't see why so many people think that is impossible, dumb, or ect.

I do disagree with your statement on the IC's. Yeah, assuming the status quo, they would have easier wobbles. That will affect things; however, there is no wavedash. Wavedashing was great for the IC's cause it allowed them to move around quickly AND stay together. When you run around and stuff Nana becomes ******** and extremely vulnerable. All in all, the easy wobbles won't make up for the fact that Nana would be easily seperated or KOed.

Also, with Peach. Gimpy said a lot of inaccurate things about her. I used to think she was omega broke too, based on what he said, but if you go check the Peach forums of Brawl you'll see some more solid info. The only difference between that info and the latest Brawl information is that it seems they added DJC with her in later demos.

What good does this do the thread to point this out? How is this on topic or even progressing the thread? Why does this even matter? Why are you debating this in the first place?

Ask yourself these things please. Stop antagonizing 5150.

That's interesting that you should say that. 5150's attitude is the very crux of why people don't want to listen to him, as you yourself just brought out! Your civil tone and good punctuation goes a long way to making you easier to read and understand.

Using "exclusive" terminology, that only accessible to people of the "competitive" scene without clarification is part of the problem. He flames people that can't somehow grasp his definition on "control" when he does nothing to clarify the situation.

Basically I'm just trying to point out what you already did. 5150's rude attitude and sheer lack of respect for anyone who doesn't have his "innate" knowledge of the scene is pretty shameful and counterproductive to good conversation.

Like you said, this topic would have fared much better if someone else had made it and was discussing it. I'm surprised no one has locked it and/or warned 5150 because of the sheer amount of NEEDLESS flaming he does.

 

[omfgomfg]

oh hell don't diss the 64

 

[MookieRah]

Using "exclusive" terminology, that only accessible to people of the "competitive" scene without clarification is part of the problem.

Basically I'm just trying to point out what you already did. 5150's rude attitude and sheer lack of respect for anyone who doesn't have his "innate" knowledge of the scene is pretty shameful and counterproductive to good conversation.

Did you read the segment that I wrote specifically for him? I told him to explain things better and that his cantankerous attitude is his ultimate downfall. I can definitely understand why people would get upset, cause he was very rude; however, he didn't start calling people ******* until the flames started to come on. Up until that point, he was merely telling people to stay on topic.

I'm surprised no one has locked it and/or warned 5150 because of the sheer amount of NEEDLESS flaming he does.

If I warned 5150 I'd also have to warn everyone's horde of flaming against him as well. So unless you want a 6 point ban for spamming and antagonizing him, I'd just take this as a lesson learned :-P. You may dislike 5150, and hate how he talks down to people, but you are no better by flaming him. He wanted an intellgent debate (which is silly cause this is the Brawl discussion XD) and he was simply trying to keep people discussing the topic and not about tiers existing or not.

oh hell don't diss the 64

It's garbage compared to melee. *Gasp* I said it. Really, it's an ok game, but Melee is leaps and bounds ahead of it in pretty much every area.