What needs to get done by Monday

[goodoldganon]

As with every set we release, we get close to releasing it and then get some sweet new code to add to a character. Well we have Chibo's tournament on the 16th and we should really have a concrete set two weeks before the tournament. I'm realistic and that isn't happening so I'm giving us a deadline. We need an official set for Monday (Tuesday at the latest). There are some things we still need to discuss so I thought I'd highlight them here and see where you guys stand.

-Lucas: We way overbuffed him. We need to address the N-air issue and his U-tilt, PK Fire, and F-tilt are all too good (at least in my and many others opinions.) We'll free up 3 lines of frame data for a character that didn't need that much help.
EDIT: SHeLL made some fixes for him

-Lucario's Extreme Speed and Wolf's Shine: It's badass we all know it, but will it be too good? In my eyes I believe once someone masters it, it's gonna be way to good of a skill for an already solid character to have. Much like Wolf's shine, we shouldn't be giving good characters new and interesting techniques because they are BA. We opened up a world of possibilities for those characters, yet we still have characters like Link, D3, and Bowser who are left out high and dry.
EDIT: We are gonna wait and see how these play out

-Ganon's Wiz Truck: I firmly believe the new one is too powerful in teams and FFAs and we need to address that. SHeLL is currently gonna try 85 base and 2x winddown on the Quake and Grounded Kick (since their IDs are tied together). I still stand by the original values Cape and I had. It killed at 110% at the edge of stages and set up great edgeguards. It was very reasonable. The kick is too powerful for how quickly it winds down but I feel anything lower then 2.25x wind down and we'll lose Quake Combos.

-Ike's Recovery: Unless we can get the code working to only give him an up-b if he swings the sword we need to remove him from that code. His recovery went from garbage to one of the bests. It's way too good in Ike's hand.

-Up-B momentum code: Last night when I played it still wasn't affecting Link and Tink.

-Marth: There was a heated debate in the IRC about if Marth is too good in Brawl+ and how we would go about nerfing him. Cape, Paprika, or SHeLL recorded the whole discussion so we can discuss Marth from there.

-MK's Glair: We deemed that Shuttle Loop -> GLair was too good and spammable. Leaf came up with a reasonable nerf to the tactic so I'll leave that to him to describe.

-Snake's Tilts: Was Snake good enough to receive that nerf? That's really the one question here. I'm content with them, though I'm unsure if it was a balance nerf or a 'that **** is gay' nerf.

-Samus's Super Missiles: We keep saying they are too strong but never do anything about it.
EDIT: It has most likely been taken care of.


Those are all the major points I could think of that we need to address before this next release. Post any other concerns you have here as well. As you can see we have a lot of work ahead of us. Let's stay on target and get this set ready for a great release on Monday.

 

[Deleted member]

snake ftilt maybe but otherwise good list

 

[The Cape]

Got a few ideas for Bowser, Link and DDD that I have begun writing the codes for that we could try out. They are as follows:

DDD:
Second jab (40 base from 20, 0 growth from 50, angle from 85 to 90)
Star projectile (150 growth from 70)
Uncharge down+B (20 to 30 base)
Full charged Down+B (30 to 40 base)
Flip from upB 2x speed

Bowser:
Have Bowser bomb have more KB so it kills alot lower? Situational move, but it hits hard and should kill earlier. Makes the move more dangerous

Link:
Change bomb allegience so he can bomb jump (basically make bombs hit everyone the same way)

Few other minor changes to think about for polishing reaons:
Falco last hit fair
and
Falco bair or Dsmash
KB increase to these moves as Falco is kind of lacking in the kill department (and isnt as amazing as everyone thinks)
Falco U airSlash sound effect (its being asked for alot)

Rob F smash (Wee bit more KB? Only if we do D smash)
Rob D smash (Comes out half speed?)

Toon Link D smash:
I need to work the numbers on this one so it doesnt have that stupid first launch hit

Mario Dair (and ground)
Lower KBG to allow for more combo setups for Mario at higher percents. The move becomes almost useless at higher percents.

Marth upB (float)
More float time to this move to allow for better gimps and easier edgeguards.

Peach mid air jump have less grav to go higher? (This is a big one with the Peach players)

Aggressive AT's and Pokeballs: (Phantom Wings)
4A000000 8077F780
D2000000 00000008
2C000002 40820030
2C120000 40820010
2C1C0003 40820008
3B800005 60000000
2C12002A 40820010
2C1C0003 40820008
3B800005 60000000
939E0038 00000000
E0000000 80008000

This makes assist trophies and pokeball pokemon attack everyone. Can we adapt this to Link bombs?

 

[goodoldganon]

Red, as always

Got a few ideas for Bowser, Link and DDD that I have begun writing the codes for that we could try out. They are as follows:

DDD:
Second jab (40 base from 20, 0 growth from 50, angle from 85 to 90)
I'm unsure what we hope to accomplish with this
Star projectile (150 growth from 70)
Uncharge down+B (20 to 30 base)
Full charged Down+B (30 to 40 base)
Flip from upB 2x speed

All of these sound great, especially the down-b flip.

Bowser:
Have Bowser bomb have more KB so it kills alot lower? Situational move, but it hits hard and should kill earlier. Makes the move more dangerous

Makes the move more deadly allowing Bowser to return to the ground quickly, where his strengths lie.

Link:
Change bomb allegience so he can bomb jump (basically make bombs hit everyone the same way)

Can we edit bombs? Thought we couldn't... Either way, set bomb knockback would be great

Few other minor changes to think about for polishing reaons:
Falco last hit fair
and
Falco bair or Dsmash
KB increase to these moves as Falco is kind of lacking in the kill department (and isnt as amazing as everyone thinks)
Falco U airSlash sound effect (its being asked for alot)

Agreed on the U-air slash effect. I don't think Falco is as good as everyone says, but I'd like to see how he plays out before we buff him. Being average isn't a reason to buff him.

Rob F smash (Wee bit more KB? Only if we do D smash)
Rob D smash (Comes out half speed?)

If they come together then sure.

Toon Link D smash:
I need to work the numbers on this one so it doesnt have that stupid first launch hit

For the love of everything holy, yes please.

Mario Dair (and ground)
Lower KBG to allow for more combo setups for Mario at higher percents. The move becomes almost useless at higher percents.

Mario combos incredibly well so I'm not sure he really needs it. Still worth looking into I suppose.

Marth upB (float)
More float time to this move to allow for better gimps and easier edgeguards.

I assume that was the final verdict? Seems reasonable.

Peach mid air jump have less grav to go higher? (This is a big one with the Peach players)
I'd rather fix her inability to grab on backwards during parasol first. Still, wouldn't be against it.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Marth upB (float)
More float time to this move to allow for better gimps and easier edgeguards

I honestly think this would be overdoing a nerf to Marth. Marth is already unable to sweetspot his up B. He will always go into that float animation if he didn't hit anything, regardless of how well he spaced his recovery. Increasing his float time would just make edgeguarding him stupid proof, as you'd just have even more time to speed hug him after he does his up B. It's like light shield edgehoging except even less committed since you don't even have to be close to the edge to do this.

I'd rather nerf him in some other way. Even if we have to do multiple nerfs or something.

 

[The Cape]

What would you suggest? We tried a few things and took alot of heat from our Marth mains in the IRC. Making him easier to gimp (because its supposedly so easy as is) was the suggeston that seemed to get the most appeal.

 

[Deleted member]

let's just try it and then see if we just need to tweak it or just drop it.

 

[shanus]

I fail to see why we want to nerf him more given that we have zero data on him being completely OP right now.

Also, regarding MKs glair. Its predictable with a shuttle loop happy MK, why does it need to be nerfed?

To be honest, most of these changes seem frivolous. I see maybe buffing D3 a bit, but other than that, I think all the others are unnecessary Cape. For instance, ROBs fsmash has a deceptively large hitbox which can be aimed and already hits hard. Its amazing for camping projectiles into retreating pivot fsmash.

Why not look up the ID for Ike's aerial sideB and just add lag to it?

Also, GoG, I did nerf the super missiles. At least I thought I did. I might have forgotten, though.

 

[goodoldganon]

Didn't see the nerf in the patch notes. If you did then that is my fault and I apologize.

 

[Team Giza]

Yes.... keep buffing Dedede. >.>

 

[Deleted member]

this should be the link bomb code

4A000000 8077F780 
D2000000 00000005
2C000002 40820018
2C120055 40820010
2C1C0003 40820008
3B800005 939E0038
60000000 00000000

EDITED giza says it simply doesn't work

 

[The Cape]

DDD stuff:

Second jab (40 base from 20, 0 growth from 50, angle from 85 to 90)
20053214 00055024
05002800 005A0000
FFFFFFFF


Star projectile (150 growth from 70)
6F004646 00046000
00964600 00460000
FFFFFFFF


Uncharge down+B (20 to 30 base)
200B6414 00169137
0B641E00 01690000
FFFFFFFF

Full charged Down+B (30 to 40 base)
hitbox 1:
201E501E 05169137
1E502805 01690000
FFFFFFFF

Flip from upB 2x speed
2000012E 40000000

Snake's dair

hb4 (50 growth from 100)

2E056400 00050033
05320000 00500000
FFFFFFFF

Mario Dair (80 growth to 40)
hitbox 2
00075050 0004B033
07502800 004B0000
FFFFFFFF

Bowser downB
hb3 (100 growth from 75, 60 base from 45)
0B144B2D 0004C11A
14643C00 004C0000
FFFFFFFF
hb4 (90 growth from 72, 14 damage from 11)
0B0B483C 0004C11B
0E5A3C00 004C0000
FFFFFFFF

Falco
Fair (30 degrees from 50, 120 growth from 60)
hb2 (last hit)
13033C50 02032033
03785002 001E0000
FFFFFFFF

Bair (sweetspot only)
hb1 (105 growth from 103, 30 base from 0)
130D6700 00169033
0D691E00 01690000
FFFFFFFF

Link:
B moves
Arrows (20 base from 7, 10 damage from 5, 10 degrees from special 20)
49053207 02169001
0A321402 000A0000
FFFFFFFF

Boomerang
hitbox 1 (10 damage from 7)
64072850 02046002
0A285002 00460000
FFFFFFFF
hitbox 2 (8 damage from 5)
6405283C 02041002
08283C02 00410000
FFFFFFFF
hitbox 3 (10 base, 150 growth from 0 and 100)
64006400 0003C002
00960A00 003C0000
FFFFFFFF
hitbox 4 (10 base, 150 growth from 0 and 100)
64006400 00028003
00960A00 00280000
FFFFFFFF

Worth a test on these?

Bring back Boozer 40% ALR and Thick Skin and Mario fair changes?
Mario Fair


hitbox 1
000C501E 00169033
0C641E00 01690000
FFFFFFFF

"Doc" hit - Growth 100 from 80


hitbox 2
000D4B14 00118033
0D4B2800 01180000
FFFFFFFF

"Meteor" hit - Base KB 40 from 20


hitbox 3
000A5014 00169033
0A501400 015E0000
FFFFFFFF

"Flub" hit now a semi-spike at lower percents, "nipple-spike" at higher percents - Angle 350 from 361 (special 20 degrees)


Ideas:
Link aerial up B:
6 hitboxes change them to make the move a combo finisher and recovery move.
Something like changing their bases to the following:
120,100,80,60,40,20

Or also interesting:
120,100,80,80,100,120

What do you guys think?

Also, Fox dair "nerf" back in and some of the Ness changes I posted before? (Faster dair for one)

Ivy upB winddown at 2x to .5x and infinite upBs?

Peach second jump lower grav? (Grav made it go lower, but lower grav can make it go higher now)


From Shell:
~Lucas 5/1/09~


Replace old dash attack (1.35x) with these two lines:

1A1F0026 3F333333
1A000026 3F99999A

=1.20x until frame 31, then 0.70x for last 10 frames

-----------------------

Remove PK Fire

1A000113 something

-----------------------

Replace U-tilt (1.35x) with this line:

1A080028 3F966666

=1.175x after hitbox (frame 8)

-----------------------

PKT1 Head Hitbox = BKB to 50 from 70

6E0A3246 03169000
0A323203 01690000
FFFFFFFF


To do:

-Fix Nair Locking

 

[goodoldganon]

Interesting stuff, as always Cape. Not sure we can fit it all in for Monday or Tuesday. A large chunk is also frivolous or unneeded, but testing never hurt.

[quote="The Cape, post: 7297627"]DDD stuff:

Second jab (40 base from 20, 0 growth from 50, angle from 85 to 90)
20053214 00055024
05002800 005A0000
FFFFFFFF

[COLOR="Red"]I really, really like this idea. D3s strength is his grab game so being able to jab -> jab -> grab will pretty pimp.[/COLOR]

Star projectile (150 growth from 70)
6F004646 00046000
00964600 00460000
FFFFFFFF

[COLOR="Red"]Could be an interesting tactic in teams. Unless you mean he can actually spit people to their doom, which would be hilarious.[/COLOR]

Uncharge down+B (20 to 30 base)
200B6414 00169137
0B641E00 01690000
FFFFFFFF

[COLOR="Red"]Seems frivolous, to quote Shanus. I just don't see people getting hit by this. It's more of a 'look what we can do!' change.[/COLOR]

Full charged Down+B (30 to 40 base)
hitbox 1:
201E501E 05169137
1E502805 01690000
FFFFFFFF

[COLOR="Red"]See above[/COLOR]

Flip from upB 2x speed
2000012E 40000000

[COLOR="Red"]Sounds good[/COLOR]

Snake's dair

hb4 (50 growth from 100)

2E056400 00050033
05320000 00500000
FFFFFFFF

[COLOR="Red"]Are you suggesting we nerf the last hit on the d-air? That's totally unnecessary. With momentum he can't even hit with all 4 of kicks. We don't need to nerf Snake.[/COLOR]

Mario Dair (80 growth to 40)
hitbox 2
00075050 0004B033
07502800 004B0000
FFFFFFFF

[COLOR="Red"]Mario is fine. I don't think he needs the change, but whatever...[/COLOR]

Bowser downB
hb3 (100 growth from 75, 60 base from 45)
0B144B2D 0004C11A
14643C00 004C0000
FFFFFFFF
hb4 (90 growth from 72, 14 damage from 11)
0B0B483C 0004C11B
0E5A3C00 004C0000
FFFFFFFF

[COLOR="Red"]See D3's hammer[/COLOR]

Falco
Fair (30 degrees from 50, 120 growth from 60)
hb2 (last hit)
13033C50 02032033
03785002 001E0000
FFFFFFFF

[COLOR="Red"]The f-air sucks and this won't change anything.[/COLOR]

Bair (sweetspot only)
hb1 (105 growth from 103, 30 base from 0)
130D6700 00169033
0D691E00 01690000
FFFFFFFF

[COLOR="Red"]I don't think Falco is as good as people say, but I don't think he needs help KOing[/COLOR]

Link:
B moves
Arrows (20 base from 7, 10 damage from 5, 10 degrees from special 20)
49053207 02169001
0A321402 000A0000
FFFFFFFF

[COLOR="Red"]Up-ing their damage? Not sure we need to promote more projectile camping with Link.[/COLOR]

Boomerang
hitbox 1 (10 damage from 7)
64072850 02046002
0A285002 00460000
FFFFFFFF
hitbox 2 (8 damage from 5)
6405283C 02041002
08283C02 00410000
FFFFFFFF
hitbox 3 (10 base, 150 growth from 0 and 100)
64006400 0003C002
00960A00 003C0000
FFFFFFFF
hitbox 4 (10 base, 150 growth from 0 and 100)
64006400 00028003
00960A00 00280000
FFFFFFFF

[COLOR="Red"]I don't understand what is going on here. Are we buffing the wind pushback, cause that would be pro.[/COLOR]

Worth a test on these?

Bring back Boozer 40% ALR and Thick Skin and Mario fair changes?
Mario Fair

[COLOR="Red"]I'd say bring one or the other back for Bowser and Thick Skin is more unique. If  we really decide Mario needs a change it's one or the other between the D-air or F-air.[/COLOR]

hitbox 1
000C501E 00169033
0C641E00 01690000
FFFFFFFF

"Doc" hit - Growth 100 from 80


hitbox 2
000D4B14 00118033
0D4B2800 01180000
FFFFFFFF

"Meteor" hit - Base KB 40 from 20


hitbox 3
000A5014 00169033
0A501400 015E0000
FFFFFFFF

"Flub" hit now a semi-spike at lower percents, "nipple-spike" at higher percents - Angle 350 from 361 (special 20 degrees)


Ideas:
Link aerial up B:
6 hitboxes change them to make the move a combo finisher and recovery move.
Something like changing their bases to the following:
120,100,80,60,40,20

Or also interesting:
120,100,80,80,100,120

What do you guys think?

[COLOR="Red"]Not for Monday.[/COLOR]

Also, Fox dair "nerf" back in and some of the Ness changes I posted before? (Faster dair for one)

[COLOR="Red"]Stop with the Fox d-air nerf crap. It's fine as it is. Good players don't get hit by D-air that much.[/COLOR]

Ivy upB winddown at 2x to .5x and infinite upBs?

[COLOR="Red"]We balanced Ivy around a TERRIBLE recovery, we don't need to change that.[/COLOR]

Peach second jump lower grav? (Grav made it go lower, but lower grav can make it go higher now)

[COLOR="Red"]Yes, seems fine. If we get the Hybrid NADT code she'll need it so she can jump out of combos.[/COLOR]

From Shell:
~Lucas 5/1/09~


Replace old dash attack (1.35x) with these two lines:

1A1F0026 3F333333
1A000026 3F99999A

=1.20x until frame 31, then 0.70x for last 10 frames

-----------------------

Remove PK Fire

1A000113 something

-----------------------

Replace U-tilt (1.35x) with this line:

1A080028 3F966666

=1.175x after hitbox (frame 8)

-----------------------

PKT1 Head Hitbox = BKB to 50 from 70

6E0A3246 03169000
0A323203 01690000
FFFFFFFF


To do:

-Fix Nair Locking
[COLOR="Red"]All sound great for Lucas. His buffs were a little absurd.[/COLOR]
[/QUOTE]

I really want to discuss the Shine and Extreme Speed changes. I think we are just accepting them to early because they are so cool.

 

[kupo15]

I definitely agree to extreme speed, DDD flip, DDD hammer and links bombs

 

[The Cape]

Can we add this in too?

ZSS and Sheik in Random [spunit262]046A0830 40C00000
C26858B0 00000006
80610044 2C030003
4182000C 2C03000E
40A20010 70040001
7C632214 90610044
5400F87E 9001004C
60000000 00000000
50% of selecting ZSS/Sheik instead when Samus/Zelda is selected

 

[leafgreen386]

Can we add this in too?

ZSS and Sheik in Random [spunit262]046A0830 40C00000
C26858B0 00000006
80610044 2C030003
4182000C 2C03000E
40A20010 70040001
7C632214 90610044
5400F87E 9001004C
60000000 00000000
50% of selecting ZSS/Sheik instead when Samus/Zelda is selected

Putting them on the CSS as their own characters should do that, already...

 

[The Cape]

Snake's dair

hb4 (50 growth from 100)

2E056400 00050033
05320000 00500000
FFFFFFFF

Mario Dair (110 base from 80, 80 growth to 40)
hitbox 2
00075050 0004B033
076E2800 004B0000
FFFFFFFF

Bowser downB
hb3 (100 growth from 75, 60 base from 45)
0B144B2D 0004C11A
14643C00 004C0000
FFFFFFFF
hb4 (90 growth from 72, 14 damage from 11)
0B0B483C 0004C11B
0E5A3C00 004C0000
FFFFFFFF

Falco
Fair (30 degrees from 50, 100 growth from 60)
hb2 (last hit)
13033C50 02032033
03645002 001E0000
FFFFFFFF

Bair
hb1 (105 growth from 103, 10 base from 0)
130D6700 00169033
0D690A00 01690000
FFFFFFFF


Link:
Boomerang
hitbox 1 (10 damage from 7, 30 growth from 40)
64072850 02046002
0A1E5002 00460000
FFFFFFFF
hitbox 2 (8 damage from 5, 30 growth from 40)
6405283C 02041002
081E3C02 00410000
FFFFFFFF

Fox dair: (32 base, 20 growth)
06032821 0011D033
03282000 011D0000
FFFFFFFF

Frame 28, half speed (Ivy upB)

DDD:
Second jab (50 base from 20, 0 growth from 50, angle from 85 to 90)
20053214 00055024
05003200 005A0000
FFFFFFFF

Uncharge down+B (20 to 40 base)
200B6414 00169137
0B642800 01690000
FFFFFFFF

Full charged Down+B (30 to 50 base)
hitbox 1:
201E501E 05169137
1E503205 01690000
FFFFFFFF

Mario Fair
hitbox 1
000C501E 00169033
0C641E00 01690000
FFFFFFFF
"Doc" hit - Growth 100 from 80
hitbox 2
000D4B14 00118033
0D4B2800 01180000
FFFFFFFF
"Meteor" hit - Base KB 40 from 20
hitbox 3
000A5014 00169033
0A501400 015E0000
FFFFFFFF
"Flub" hit now a semi-spike at lower percents, "nipple-spike" at higher percents - Angle 350 from 361 (special 20 degrees)

Lucas:
Replace old dash attack (1.35x) with these two lines:
1A1F0026 3F333333
1A000026 3F99999A
=1.20x until frame 31, then 0.70x for last 10 frames

Remove PK Fire
1A000113 something

Replace U-tilt (1.35x) with this line:
1A080028 3F966666
=1.175x after hitbox (frame 8)

PKT1 Head Hitbox = BKB to 50 from 70
6E0A3246 03169000
0A323203 01690000
FFFFFFFF

All tested and seem solid.

 

[goodoldganon]

Putting them on the CSS as their own characters should do that, already...

It does, I get them from time to time.

 

[shanus]

For the fox dair change, how long does it take to get a safe dair to upsmash?

Why are you nerfing snakes dair? That move isn't that easy to connect with (hb4)

Also whats with the PKT1 head change?

Also @ GoG, who knows if wolf shine or lucario extreme speed stay? I have to see what the public feedback is regarding it.

 

[Team Giza]

Why are you nerfing snakes dair? That move isn't that easy to connect with (hb4)

I think he wanted to make the move keep you stuck in it better. I'm not familiar with which hitbox does what so he might have changed the wrong one.

Also @ GoG, who knows if wolf shine or lucario extreme speed stay? I have to see what the public feedback is regarding it.

I dont care much about Wolf's shine though I think its a good change. But Lucario's extreme speed changes better stay.

 

[The Cape]

The Snake dair changes actually make the move link the whole way. Hitbox 5 is the killing hitbox. The move now linkes really well

Wolf shine and Lucario upB are taking good responses and the Link fair is actually taking bad responses >.>

Shanus, throw this stuff in a set to test? The Ivysaur upB stuff actually works really well

Also, everyone hates the Ganon D smash "buff"

 

[goodoldganon]

Link's f-air is poorly received? Wtf? What's wrong with it? It actually connects with both hits, making another viable aerial finisher.

The Lucas Adjustments need to go in for sure as do the D3 changes. If they do what I think they will do D3 will be a pretty solid middle of the road character. I still don't see the point in the Falco F-air attack, it's still gonna suck. I also don't think Falco needs any buffs, but that is why they are for testing I suppose.

Are we content with Ike's new awesome-sauce recovery? (I'm not)

I didn't hate the Ganon D-smash buff. Thought it was pretty cool. Not sure why it dropped but it wasn't a huge asset to his game so it was probably dropped for being superfluous.

EDIT: I have seen some people ask for unrestricted camera to be added to the sets. I see no reason why we shouldn't, now that we have virtually unlimited space.

 

[kupo15]

so we are adding the mario changes bacck in? Nice.

Since you are giving mario his nipple spike, can you give falcon his? That is an unnecessary sour hitbox added.

Can we also get and add pits dtilt spike as well? (not the original one) The only change would be to change the angle to that of the existing spike

 

[Revven]

There's 1 thing I'd like to see for Ness.

Get rid of the annoying no flinch hitboxes his Fair has. It's terrible and is probably why it deals hardly ANY hitstun AND shieldstun.

 

[The Cape]

SMK, there arent any. We checked. We might have to buff a few of the weaker hitboxes a bit, but there are no no flinch boxes.

Are the rest of the changes good?

 

[shanus]

Cape ill add it back tomorrow nigjt when im back in town

 

[Revven]

SMK, there arent any. We checked. We might have to buff a few of the weaker hitboxes a bit, but there are no no flinch boxes.

Are the rest of the changes good?

Then yeah, buff the weaker hitboxes whatever is making the move quite terrible on approach.

 

[kupo15]

Add this. It turns pit's dtilt into a meteor. I can't think of anything else to give him except that AR adjustment we mentioned

170B3250 02050029
0B325002 01180000
FFFFFFFF 00000000

 

[Team Giza]

Uncharge down+B (20 to 30 base)
Seems frivolous, to quote Shanus. I just don't see people getting hit by this. It's more of a 'look what we can do!' change.

There are plenty of times in Brawl+ were I have a chance to use the down+B. The problem is that there is never a reason to use it in those situations instead of something else. However I would rather see if we can make the multidash part of the down+B easier to use so that its actually applicable.

Bowser downB
See D3's hammer

It actually helps. Bowser can use it to edgeguard. If it was stronger it would be better. Plus Bowser still has the grounded version of it which could now be a decent kill move.

 

[Alopex]

Pikachu
Pika CG fix:
07238075 3F2AAAAB
07040034 3F000000
-Dthrow lag +5 frames, Pika grab start-up +1 frame.


Wario
Wario CG Fix:
152E8075 3F44EC4F
15040034 3F000000
-Dthrow lag +3 frames, Wario grab start-up +1 frame.

150F002F 3FE00000
Wario Dsmash 1.75x windd (50 winddown instead of 70)

150E002C 3F4A1AF2
Wario Fsmash 0.78947368x windd (38 windd instead of 30)


Lucario
Lucario CG "fix":
211D8074 3F200000
-Lucario Uthrow wind-down +6 frames.

It's a "fix" because it doesn't really remove the CG, since that would **** Lucario pretty well. But it does reduce it. Works until less percents on characters like Fox, and removes it on floatier characters. It varies, thus "fix".


Zelda
So after doing a bunch of frame testing, it's official:
0D00011A 40000000
-Zelda UpB 2x reappearance wind-down

and

0D000019 3FC00000
-Zelda UpB landing lag 1.5x faster

are both are needed.

Ivysaur
1F14002F 3FC00000
-Ivy Dsmash 1.5x windd (30 windd intead of 48)

 

[Deleted member]

slight note that is about older changes.
nana's hitbox changes don't do anything. we might as well take them out and readd them when they actually work.

 

[shanus]

Pikachu
Pika CG fix:
07238075 3F2AAAAB
07040034 3F000000
-Dthrow lag +5 frames, Pika grab start-up +1 frame.


Wario
Wario CG Fix:
152E8075 3F44EC4F
15040034 3F000000
-Dthrow lag +3 frames, Wario grab start-up +1 frame.

150F002F 3FE00000
Wario Dsmash 1.75x windd (50 winddown instead of 70)

150E002C 3F4A1AF2
Wario Fsmash 0.78947368x windd (38 windd instead of 30)


Lucario
Lucario CG "fix":
211D8074 3F200000
-Lucario Uthrow wind-down +6 frames.

It's a "fix" because it doesn't really remove the CG, since that would **** Lucario pretty well. But it does reduce it. Works until less percents on characters like Fox, and removes it on floatier characters. It varies, thus "fix".


Zelda
So after doing a bunch of frame testing, it's official:
0D00011A 40000000
-Zelda UpB 2x reappearance wind-down

and

0D000019 3FC00000
-Zelda UpB landing lag 1.5x faster

are both are needed.

Ivysaur
1F14002F 3FC00000
-Ivy Dsmash 1.5x windd (30 windd intead of 48)

Line limit means I can't add a few of these. Couldn't include wario smashes or ivysaur dsmash

 

[goodoldganon]

Red, as always.

Pikachu
Pika CG fix:
07238075 3F2AAAAB
07040034 3F000000
-Dthrow lag +5 frames, Pika grab start-up +1 frame.

Didn't we try this and it ruined Pika's d-grab? He lost all the options out of it.

Wario
Wario CG Fix:
152E8075 3F44EC4F
15040034 3F000000
-Dthrow lag +3 frames, Wario grab start-up +1 frame.

I forsee this doing the same thing as Pika's d-grab.

150F002F 3FE00000
Wario Dsmash 1.75x windd (50 winddown instead of 70)

Wario doesn't need buffs...

150E002C 3F4A1AF2
Wario Fsmash 0.78947368x windd (38 windd instead of 30)

Or nerfs. Stop changing things cause we think they are 'gay'. It's a terrible reason to nerf Wario.


Lucario
Lucario CG "fix":
211D8074 3F200000
-Lucario Uthrow wind-down +6 frames.

It's a "fix" because it doesn't really remove the CG, since that would **** Lucario pretty well. But it does reduce it. Works until less percents on characters like Fox, and removes it on floatier characters. It varies, thus "fix".


Didn't know he had a CG...

Zelda
So after doing a bunch of frame testing, it's official:
0D00011A 40000000
-Zelda UpB 2x reappearance wind-down

and

0D000019 3FC00000
-Zelda UpB landing lag 1.5x faster

are both are needed.

Great

Ivysaur
1F14002F 3FC00000
-Ivy Dsmash 1.5x windd (30 windd intead of 48)

Ivy doesn't need buffs. We had this in earlier and took it away because it was retardedly fast.

Ok, I'm gonna rage now...

Stop buffing and nerfing **** just cause we can. I respect the fact we are trying to fix CGs but we are severely hurting the options out of those throws. People aren't going to quit Brawl+ because Wario has a CG. They will report and we will say 'Hey we are waiting on a throw modifier' and everything will be cool.

Also, while we are talking about nerfs, we need to stop nerfing things cause they are slightly annoying. I'm looking at Snake's tilts, Wario's F-Smash, MK's Glair, and probably a few more things. These tactics aren't unbeatable strategies of pure awesome. Wario's F-smash isn't even safe on block, why THE **** are we even considering nerfing it? Snake's tilt nerfs make him feel awkward and weird now a days too. If it bothers you guys so much that Snake camps with his amazing tilts then don't ****ing play as him. A tilt camping Snake can be annoying but he isn't unbeatable. Momentum and the overall faster pace of Brawl+ make punishing whiffed tilts quite easily. GRRRRR RAWR!

Also, on the note of buffs, stop buffing characters that are pretty solid. Because someone isn't as good as Marth or Fox or Captain Falcon is not a good enough reason to buff a character. Does the character need serious help so that he/she can be played at a high level of play? Last I check even Ganondorf could win a few tournaments in Melee so being 'middle tier' is far from a good reason to buff a character. (The Falco buffs and Ivy D-smash are two big ones in particular I am looking at)

So basically calm down off the changes. Middle of the road characters don't need buffs cause they are middle of the road and characters with a 'gay' tactic or two don't need those tactics to be nerfed. How about you man up and beat the strategy rather then just remove it?

 

[shanus]

*cough* agrees with GoG *cough*

Also GoG, in the set, you'll notice I only added the zelda and Pika/Wario/Lucario CG changes for testing

 

[goodoldganon]

*cough* agrees with GoG *cough*

Also GoG, in the set, you'll notice I only added the zelda and Pika/Wario/Lucario CG changes for testing

I'll look into testing it this afternoon to see if my fears of ruined options is true.

 

[shanus]

From quick testing, pika was able to utilt out of dthrow, and lucario could still do stuff

 

[Revven]

Please test Wario's extensively, I actually wanted to TRY the change and if it did fix the CG but kept Wario's options from it, I would be happy and would be glad to keep the change until we got a legit throw modifier.

I might actually look at Wario's today too if I can.

 

[kupo15]

Red, as always.

I really wish you wouldn't

Also, on the note of buffs, stop buffing characters that are pretty solid. Because someone isn't as good as Marth or Fox or Captain Falcon is not a good enough reason to buff a character. Does the character need serious help so that he/she can be played at a high level of play? Last I check even Ganondorf could win a few tournaments in Melee so being 'middle tier' is far from a good reason to buff a character. (The Falco buffs and Ivy D-smash are two big ones in particular I am looking at)

So basically calm down off the changes. Middle of the road characters don't need buffs cause they are middle of the road and characters with a 'gay' tactic or two don't need those tactics to be nerfed. How about you man up and beat the strategy rather then just remove it?

I disagree. We have no authority to say "hey, you were doomed to be middle of the road. Oh well!" I think we should optimize their move sets as long as its reasonable. Speeding up ganon's utilt 10x would not be a reasonable buff but something like his dsmash is. Just accepting things the way they are indirectly says that we support sakurai's vision in this game which we all know that his vision was poor or else we wouldn't need to hack this game. An example would be Ike's dtilt.

I'm am positive that you gog do not want to change his dtilt sour spot into a spike because its "unnecessary" but if you think about it, the sour spot on that move is unnecessary. It acts like a bad ftilt because the range is less and its slower. Seeing this comparison, the sour spot is an arbitrary fork in the road to limit that move's options. I dtilt with the intention of spiking you and that is how it should act. Its things like this that we should be changing about characters even to the middle of the road characters. Its simple changes like this that will make characters more solid and is something I think we should be doing.

Now I agree with you that a lot of changes being made are unnecessary but I don't want you to get mixed up with the things that truly are unnecessary and things that should be better.

 

[goodoldganon]

Grab changes didn't do anything, just added lag to the end of missed grabs.

 

[Alopex]

You tested them GoG? The CG's are all still in?

Unlike previous changes, I did extensive frame analysis and *gasp* math in order to remove CG's without f*cking up follow-ups.

Please don't come here bashing my changes as if I just did a rough addition of lag in order to remove something "gay". All my changes are done with precision. If there was now way for me to remove the CG without removing follow-ups, I WOULD NOT HAVE REMOVED THE CG.
All the work I did was aimed at removing/reducing CGs but keeping follow-ups. That's why I added +1 frame to Wario/Pika grab, because that's a change that certainly WON'T affect any follow-up other than another grab.

As it stands, this is an attempt. If it doesn't remove the CG's, it should at least reduce the percentages in which they are escapable. Did you test that out too?


In fact, GoG, all the changes "you had earlier" were not done with precision. Which is why they weren't well-received. If you look at my changes, you'll see they aren't drastic. I gave out all the numbers so that everyone knows exactly what changed. LOOK at them, the NUMBERS, not just the words.

The previous Ivy Dsmash change was a straight up speed-up of the move. Start-up and wind-down. This is a targeted Dsmash cooldown, simply inserted to let Ivy tech-chase out of it, since its angle of launch is great for that.

The Wario changes are simple. His Dsmash has 70 frames of wind-down. Seriously? There's no way to justify keeping that.
If you'll notice from my changes, I made it have 50 frames instead. That is still quite a lot of endlag, but it makes the move SO much more usable.

The Fsmash change was there for testing purposes. Kirby's Fsmash got nerfed when I saw little reason for it. *I* never nerf people. This line is there because people wanted to test it out.


I would appreciate it, GoG, if you took the time to read up on my stuff and realize my goals and aims before you bash my work.


EDIT

I realized that I made a dumb overlook when I made the grab codes. It's only supposed to affect start-up, and I didn't include the line that prevents the rest of the grab from being affected. So yes, you would have felt more lag on missed grab.

Here is the fix for both.

Fixed Pika grab +1 frame start-up:
07070034 3F800000
07040034 3F000000

Fixed Wario grab +1 frame start-up:
15070034 3F800000
15040034 3F000000


And I read that the CG's weren't removed, but I want to reiterate:

Did you test until what percentages the CG can be done until? Because my codes, if they don't remove the CG, should at least reduce the percentage that the opponent can escape. Perhaps even making the CG's a lot less problematic until we have a proper fix.

These are band-aid fixes, of course, but if they reduce the percentage of escape by a noticeable amount, they are definitely worth holding on to for now.

Did you guys test THAT out, or did you all give up as soon as you noticed the increased lag on missed grab (which is now fixed)?