What is the best 2v2 team?

[SilentSlayers]

On Hyrule : Pikachu + Pikachu or Fox + Pikachu


On DreamLand : Pikachu + Pikachu or Pikachu + Falcon.

I think Kirby in teams is not that good. He's good at edgeguarding alright but his average speed and his overall campy style make 2v1ing his partner easier.

IMHO, I don't think falcon is good in DreamLand for a 2v2. He gets gimped way too easily. I think Mario + Pika and Pika + Pika, maybe a couple others are best. Falcon requires quite a lot of time to do his combos, and they're mostly vertical combos, which means on a map with such a small width like dreamland, your combos get interrupted quickly. Horizontal comboers, like pikachu however don't suffer from this problem, uair chains will rarely be interfered with, and even so it can be risky. Also I just feel Pika's grab game and edge-guarding on dreamland is just way better than falcon's.

I think you got hyrule quite right though.

 

[Battlecow]

On Hyrule : Pikachu + Pikachu or Fox + Pikachu


On DreamLand : Pikachu + Pikachu or Pikachu + Falcon.

I think Kirby in teams is not that good. He's good at edgeguarding alright but his average speed and his overall campy style make 2v1ing his partner easier.

Euros has too much faith in teh doug. You're wrong for all the reasons I've already listed.

As for kirby, he gimps like a boss and I've never seen a lot of 2v1ing going on in teams with a kirby; he's not THAT slow and if he's trying to camp while his partner fights, it's a problem with the player, not the character. Eh, maybe you're right; most of my experience with kirby in teams comes from MATTS! and Red, who are both quite a bit better than the average teamer. I might be bias.

I feel like fox loses some of his mojo on hyrule in teams because he doesn't have time to camp or tent combo.

You definitely got both Pika+Pikas right though.

 

[Mahie]

An approaching Kirby is much less hassle than a defensive one. So if he tries to join in the 2v1 you can just start countering his approaches instead.

Now don't get me wrong. Kirby is still good. I just think Pikachu, Fox, Mario or Falcon are better than him at teams.

Fox on hyrule isn't all camp and tent combos. His lasers allow for combo interruption from all the way across the stage, he's got very nice mid % combos and a really strong finisher. Pikachu is fast enough to get him out of very bad situations, though he doesn't need much help most of the time. I just feel like they are really good together, Fox doing the few things Pikachu can't do that well. ( Racking up damage from afar if needed, and vertical KOs).

Falcon on DreamLand is good, seriously. You just MUST NOT play him like you'd play him in singles. From what I've read, you seem to think that Falcon = Upsmash 10Uair UpB. He doesn't need to do that combo at all. Just do hit and runs, bair and upair, completing the pressure your Pikachu partner is already putting on the opposing teams, occasionnaly help him when he gimps, and then do his very fast finishers when %s get higher. (1 Uair to upB is very fast, don't say otherwise, please.) He can move fast enough to avoid 2v1 situations when his partner isn't around, or quickly come in to help his partner when the opposite situation occurs.

Now this is just my personal opinion from my "euro" experience of the game.

 

[King Funk]

What people don't seem to understand and don't seem to WANT to understand is that Falcon is not the same type of character in singles and in doubles. If you're really still in the mindset that you're gonna do a few usmashes and 10 uairs, then you shouldn't even try to play team matches. You can't just try stuff like that, be like "but durhhh it doesn't work" and then say "Falcon sux". It's such a limited way of seeing teams and it shows that you really haven't explored all your options at all.

And here's what is wrong about the whole "Falcon gets gimped too easily" argument.

The reasoning some people here seem to have is:

1. gimping is the most important aspect of team matches
2. Falcon is very easy to gimp
3. Falcon is bad

You are forgetting something very important here though.

Is Falcon easy to grab or send offstage?

____________


I could write a BOOK about this but I'll keep it at here to see what kind or arguments you have first.

 

[SilentSlayers]

What people don't seem to understand and don't seem to WANT to understand is that Falcon is not the same type of character in singles and in doubles. If you're really still in the mindset that you're gonna do a few usmashes and 10 uairs, then you shouldn't even try to play team matches. You can't just try stuff like that, be like "but durhhh it doesn't work" and then say "Falcon sux". It's such a limited way of seeing teams and it shows that you really haven't explored all your options at all.

And here's what is wrong about the whole "Falcon gets gimped too easily" argument.

The reasoning some people here seem to have is:

1. gimping is the most important aspect of team matches
2. Falcon is very easy to gimp
3. Falcon is bad

You are forgetting something very important here though.

Is Falcon easy to grab or send offstage?

____________


I could write a BOOK about this but I'll keep it at here to see what kind or arguments you have first.

Yes he is easy to grab or send off the stage.

 

[Battlecow]

Fox on hyrule isn't all camp and tent combos.

I didn't say he was. I said he lost them, and therefore SOME of his mojo.

Falcon on DreamLand is good, seriously. You just MUST NOT play him like you'd play him in singles. From what I've read, you seem to think that Falcon = Upsmash 10Uair UpB.

Oh hey, I thought we were having a civil debate, but I forgot that I have no idea how to play falcon! Thanks for the insult, bro!

Now this is just my personal opinion from my "euro" experience of the game.

I realize that. Don't worry; I won't judge you as if you'd had experience with American levels of play.

If you're really still in the mindset that you're gonna do a few usmashes and 10 uairs, then you shouldn't even try to play team matches. You can't just try stuff like that, be like "but durhhh it doesn't work" and then say "Falcon sux". It's such a limited way of seeing teams and it shows that you really haven't explored all your options at all.

Hey, at first I thought you were clinging to Mahie's **** like a drowning man to a life preserver, but then I remembered! Boom and I don't realize that there's more to falcon than Uair chains (because we play at such a low level), and therefore aren't qualified to comment on his teams performance.

Oh wait, though. Literally no one except for you and Mahie said anything about Uair combos being the be-all and end-all of his game. We said that he has a lot of longish combos, and that they get interrupted in teams. And as for him being easy to knock offstage? I've never seen him as impossible to grab, have you? On DL, that's all it takes. He gets knocked off just as much as pika or kirby does, for sure. Only he can't recover near as well.

 

[The Star King]

Is Falcon easy to grab or send offstage?

Uh, it's not like it's particularly harder against Falcon than other characters.

 

[Mahie]

Oh hey, I thought we were having a civil debate, but I forgot that I have no idea how to play falcon! Thanks for the insult, bro!



I realize that. Don't worry; I won't judge you as if you'd had experience with American levels of play.



Hey, at first I thought you were clinging to Mahie's **** like a drowning man to a life preserver, but then I remembered! Boom and I don't realize that there's more to falcon than Uair chains (because we play at such a low level), and therefore aren't qualified to comment on his teams performance.

Oh wait, though. Literally no one except for you and Mahie said anything about Uair combos being the be-all and end-all of his game. We said that he has a lot of longish combos, and that they get interrupted in teams. And as for him being easy to knock offstage? I've never seen him as impossible to grab, have you? On DL, that's all it takes. He gets knocked off just as much as pika or kirby does, for sure. Only he can't recover near as well.

If you start your post with "You're wrong" and some European related joke then you're not calling for a civil debate. I never insulted you, I just said from what I read, your posts SEEM to depict that. When did I ever talk about Boom anyway? Why use him as an argument, it doesn't even make sense.

Also, please leave my **** where it is.

And please use game-related arguments because there isn't much to your post.

 

[King Funk]

I realize that. Don't worry; I won't judge you as if you'd had experience with American levels of play.

That was downright insulting.

More arguments please. I don't intend to write a 5000-word essay on Falcon in teams if all we're gonna get as an answer are posts like that.

 

[SilentSlayers]

That was downright insulting.

More arguments please. I don't intend to write a 5000-word essay on Falcon in teams if all we're gonna get as an answer are posts like that.

We can't back up any of this with numbers really, so let's just leave it as it is.

SilentSlayers & Battlecow(?)'s opinion: Falcon is too gimpable, and he can't combo as well in 2v2.

King Funk & Mahie's opinion: He's somewhat hard to get in a situation where he can be gimped. He doesn't have to do uair combos and he can do quick uair ---> up + b etc.

Both are fine opinions, and until numbers can back it up, I'm OK with that.

 

[Mahie]

We can't back up any of this with numbers really, so let's just leave it as it is.

SilentSlayers & Battlecow(?)'s opinion: Falcon is too gimpable, and he can't combo as well in 2v2.

King Funk & Mahie's opinion: He's somewhat hard to get in a situation where he can be gimped. He doesn't have to do uair combos and he can do quick uair ---> up + b etc.

Both are fine opinions, and until numbers can back it up, I'm OK with that.

So am I to be honest , I can see why you guys are saying that. Thanks for being reasonable Conor.

 

[Battlecow]

Dudelets, of course I'm insulting you. You started off with "Hey, you only know how to do usmashes to Uair combos."

That'd make any doug main mad.

YEAH I MAD.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

My issue with Falcon in teams is quite simple.

His worst matchups tend to occur in teams (As in Pikachu and Kirby.)

Yes, Falcon is quite good at quick combos in teams. He isn't bad in teams. the issue is that once he gets hit, it is quite difficult for him to escape combos. It is quite easy to juggle falcon while someone else is being comboed and it is somewhat difficult for Falcon to help efficiently due to the same reason as if he tries to help, the other players can easily join him in with the combo. It is why I believe Pikachu, Kirby, and Mario/possibly Fox are better than Falcon in teams as they have a better gimp potential and they have a better pressure game in the way that it is difficult to combo them as well (outside of Fox in this case and I find Fox to be only better than Falcon in teams on Hyrule and ONLY hyrule.)

BTW, after Pikachu + Pikachu, I would say Pikachu + Mario is actually one of the best teams. Not including Pikachu in any team. I enjoy the Mario Fox team.

 

[SilentSlayers]

My issue with Falcon in teams is quite simple.

His worst matchups tend to occur in teams (As in Pikachu and Kirby.)

Yes, Falcon is quite good at quick combos in teams. He isn't bad in teams. the issue is that once he gets hit, it is quite difficult for him to escape combos. It is quite easy to juggle falcon while someone else is being comboed and it is somewhat difficult for Falcon to help efficiently due to the same reason as if he tries to help, the other players can easily join him in with the combo. It is why I believe Pikachu, Kirby, and Mario/possibly Fox are better than Falcon in teams as they have a better gimp potential and they have a better pressure game in the way that it is difficult to combo them as well (outside of Fox in this case and I find Fox to be only better than Falcon in teams on Hyrule and ONLY hyrule.)

BTW, after Pikachu + Pikachu, I would say Pikachu + Mario is actually one of the best teams. Not including Pikachu in any team. I enjoy the Mario Fox team.

Yeah, pikachu + mario is really strong. Both have very strong recoveries and edgeguarding, hard to gimp and good grabs.

 

[King Funk]

You gotta be trolling when you're saying Fox is better at gimping than Falcon LOL.

 

[ballin4life]

You gotta be trolling when you're saying Fox is better at gimping than Falcon LOL.

wat

shine spike

 

[King Funk]

wat

shine spike

...................

No I'm just dying of laughter here. xD

I am seriously being trolled.

And everyone seems to be talking about characters' individual qualities put together instead of focusing on the synergy.

 

[SilentSlayers]

....................................................

No I'm just dying of laughter here. xD

I am seriously being trolled.

And everyone seems to be talking about characters' individual qualities put together instead of focusing on the synergy.

I don't think you're being trolled...

 

[King Funk]

I don't think you're being trolled...

Then I don't know what to say lol, it's quite... sad.

 

[ballin4life]

Then I don't know what to say lol, it's quite... sad.

Well, you could try, you know, EXPLAINING YOUR ****ING STATEMENTS.

I dunno, just a thought there.

 

[King Funk]

Well, you could try, you know, EXPLAINING YOUR ****ING STATEMENTS.

I dunno, just a thought there.

Alright, sorry if I sounded rude here.

Now, if you were talking about singles play, then maybe I wouldn't disagree with you that much. And also if you were talking about a direct confrontation between Fox and Falcon, then you would be absolutely right. But remember that we are talking about doubles/team matches.

Just how realistic is using shine spikes in team matches with Fox? How does it compare with Falcon's options? It really boils down to two things: the character you gimp and the recovery you have.

Shine spike is mostly effective vs Fox, Falcon, Ness, Kirby and Puff (assuming the last two characters are found in a situation below the edge which is extremely rare at low% unless it's due to a serious error). Looking at Falcon's options, his aerials are great for gimping characters with weak recoveries. His main tool of choice, dair, is not only better at killing the characters mentioned above (except maybe Falcon at 0%) but can also hit others that Fox's shine spike can't realistically hit (Pikachu, Donkey Kong). Falcon also doesn't need to/doesn't need to go as far offstage to gimp with dair.

And in the case that you do shine spike someone, you have to realize that you will most likely be offstage. This may be yet another point you'll want to debate on, but Fox's recovery is significantly worse than Falcon's for team matches. Fox has too much startup on his up-b and it usually gives too much time for the other opponent to deny his coming back to the stage. While Falcon not only has far less startup he can also space his recovery to grab the edge far more safely and efficiently than Fox can. If given the opportunity he can also attempt to up-b grab an opponent who just failed an edgeguard.

I might sound like I went out of subject here. But, in team matches, a character's potential at gimping is EXTREMELY reliant on how good his recovery his. Gimps don't mean much if you'll get gimped yourself.

That being said, with a good team mate, both Fox's and Falcon's recovery weakness can be nullified if the partner protects the edge for you. However startup and safety are still very important factors.

 

[Battlecow]

Lol ballin', you my hero.

Ehhhh, I feel like we're not getting across to each other. It's not impossible to explain by post whether one char is better than another in a given situation, but it's quite hard; people tend to come up with one or two advantages, whereupon the other side comes up with one or two disadvantages.

Be easier to see what each side means if we could play; maybe at Genesis.

 

[King Funk]

Wrote my post.

Btw I'd hapilly explain that further on MSN or AIM if anyone wants.

 

[ballin4life]

Alright, sorry if I sounded rude here.

Now, if you were talking about singles play, then maybe I wouldn't disagree with you that much.

Just FYI I was talking about singles play . Didn't realize that you meant Falcon is better at gimping ONLY IN TEAMS. That's why the explanation might have been helpful haha.

 

[The Star King]

Just FYI I was talking about singles play

>__________>

 

[King Funk]

Just FYI I was talking about singles play .

>__________>

 

[Battlecow]

Just FYI I was talking about singles play .

>___________>

 

[The Star King]

I probably wouldn't have been infracted if you guys didn't copy me. THANKS GUYS

inb4modclaimstheywouldhaveinfractedmeanyways

 

[ciaza]

You deserved it. Any form of fun is not allowed on the forum.

 

[King Funk]

Indeed, no such thing as fun fun fun fun is allowed.

Serious business.

 

[Battlecow]

About time you got infracted for those goddam signature infractions you leave in every responding post.

 

[The Star King]

Signature infractions? WTF?

It's supposed to automatically cut out your signature if it's too short, anyways. If Smashboards has a ****ty system where it counts quoting something in the length of your post for your signature activating, but it doesn't for the 10 character limit, that's not my fault.

Also, this:

loool the deal with it in your signature makes every post so much better ahaha xD

 

[Battlecow]

Signature infractions? WTF?

It's supposed to automatically cut out your signature if it's too short, anyways. If Smashboards has a ****ty system where it counts quoting something in the length of your post for your signature activating, but it doesn't for the 10 character limit, that's not my fault.

You make a convincing point.

 

[ballin4life]

Signatures shouldn't exist in the first place and neither should the 10char limit.

Anyway, to answer the thread title, the best 2v2 team is pika/pika

 

[Battlecow]

Pretty much. Thread has served its purpose.

 

[The Star King]

Signatures shouldn't exist in the first place

Why?

and neither should the 10char limit.

Agreed.

Kirby/Pika is the second best team.

 

[ballin4life]

Why?

Because they don't add much to the forum and they're often annoying to look at ... plus there is a minor efficiency loss due to the fact that I have to scroll a little bit farther to get past each signature to read the next post. So signatures increase the amount of entropy in the universe.

 

[The Star King]

I think signatures add a bit of personal flavor to Smashboards accounts.

You have to scroll more? Deal with it

 

[ballin4life]

You already have an avatar, and that doesn't add any scrolling to the vast majority of posts

 

[ciaza]

But I like to constantly let people know that I am member of Girls Dead Monster. + I like pink.