What does it take to be banned?

[tarheeljks]

-- if the full item list is available then the idea that you can just not pick the items up if you don't want to use them is kind of farfetched. you are not even playing the same game as your opponent at that point

-- i didn't say you tried to address things like hazards. i'm noting them as a factor that is not solved by choosing not to use the items. arguably the biggest problem. if i don't want to deal w/items and a box falls on my head and explodes, then what? or if i fsmash and a bobomb appears in my path?

-- regarding the sheik/bowser example, i agree* that knowing strategy x is superior to strategy y doesn't provide sufficient reason to ban strategy x. however, if for some reason using strategy x becomes the only viable way to win, then i think changes should be considered. in the item vs itemless scenario i don't think a player has much of a choice but to use the former strat, particularly if all items are on, whereas bowser doesn't have to adopt the sheik's strategy, i.e. play sheik, in order to win. however, if it became the case that no one was beating sheiks except for other sheiks then it's time to entertain the idea of banning**


*quite strongly believe it or not
** i'd like to note again here that i am very opposed to banning characters, so no one should read this as me agreeing w/the metaknight ban. idk much about it tbh but i would likely oppose it


edit: i say considered b/c it might be appropriate just to say adios to strategy y, which is what many of us do by not choosing low tiered characters

 

[Kal]

I dunno. Maybe I'm one of the few people who appreciate thoughtful points/discussion.

Yeah, I generally enjoy thoughtful discussion. I find it frustrating when people complain about walls of text and the fact that discussion is being had. If they dislike it, they don't have to read it. And it's not as though we're wasting precious resources when we post things.

*sigh* Whatever. It's still interesting to read. That being said, this is quite off topic from the OP.

Personally, I think it's still somewhat in line with the original topic. But it's natural that things will go off topic, especially if the topic is not deep enough to warrant long discussion. Topics like this also bring up several relevant issues, which can cause the topic to derail onto a separate, still relevant issue.

 

[JackieRabbit5]

think of MK as like a character in melee with just about all the advantages of the top tiers, fox's speed, jigglypuff's recovery and gimp ability, marth's disjointed hitboxes/range, and sheik's at least initial ease of use (only thing missing would be falco lasers heh)...

Could u put up with such a character for so long?
And think of how much of a difference it would make in a more defensive game like Brawl, where you can't just beat him with tech skill and aggression, your options are covered.

Even if it can be considered scrubby, it was a decision made with good intentions: the health of the community. Especially in the face of a majority.
I agree that the censorship of non-Unity tourneys seems a bit extreme though

 

[Kal]

I can't even put up with Falco. Who the hell cares what players can "put up with?" Players are fickle as ****.

I don't believe for a second it was done with good intentions. When you're censoring tournaments which don't abide by your rulesets, and you'll do whatever you can (going as far as to make an obviously biased ruleset committee), I sincerely doubt "we want to make the community healthier" was a legitimate thought going through the mind of the URC. I bet you it was more like "**** Meta Knight."

Regardless, the intentions are not that important. Even done with the right intentions, the decision itself is still wrong. We have a majority (three-fourths of the community) bullying the remaining minority into not being able to use Meta Knight.

 

[kevo]

It annoys me that the URC is attempting to enforce this policy by denying tournaments that don't use Unity the opportunity to be stickied. It just shows that they know they have no real way to enforce their silly ruleset and TO's are (and should always be) ultimately free to run tournaments however the heck they want.

 

[Mew2King]

that's pretty much the idea. This group of people wants to try to make their rules, specifically the MK ban, the standard, and encourages TOs to do this by FORCING them to follow it (see the 2nd video I linked below). But that "minority" of people that they choose to **** over is now pissed because of it, and lots of them I talked to so far want to quit, but I'm trying to tell them to just support the TOs with a mind of their own instead.

btw take a look at these 2 videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwG1t1DExXc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKgTv_SzlQg&feature=channel_video_title


Guys, if you live on EC, the 2 TOs that I know from Tristate that are not banning MK are D1 and Jtails. If you don't like Unity (or in D1's case, if you play Melee since he will host both) go to his events (This all starts about right after Apex, but it's not 100% official yet)

 

[bossa nova ♪]

mew2king ur probz just one of thoz peepz who thinkz that ummm what's that called... oh yeah uhhmm 9/11 was staged by george bush or like... ****in. the moon landing was really a spaghetti monster or some ****, ****in diiot ********

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

mew2king ur probz just one of thoz peepz who thinkz that ummm what's that called... oh yeah uhhmm 9/11 was staged by george bush or like... ****in. the moon landing was really a spaghetti monster or some ****, ****in diiot ********

Somebody ban this guy from Smashboards.

 

[CableCho57]

i guess isai is banned from 64.

 

[Lukahn]

Banning Pichu would be the ultimate troll the Melee Community could make to Brawl's.

 

[Pi]

the more the idea comes up the more lol it seems to me
'no, you can't use that character in tournaments, he's just too awful'

 

[Mike G]

Banning Pichu would be the ultimate troll the Melee Community could make to Brawl's.

Kirby imo.

It kinda makes sense in some ways too.


nah, pichu would be more lols

 

[Bones0]

mew2king ur probz just one of thoz peepz who thinkz that ummm what's that called... oh yeah uhhmm 9/11 was staged by george bush or like... ****in. the moon landing was really a spaghetti monster or some ****, ****in diiot ********

Translation:
Jason Zimmerman, you are probably just one of those people who supports 9/11 conspiracy theories and other outrageous claims, such as the moon landing was actually staged by the Flying Spaghetti Monster.


Seriously though dude, you're way the **** out of line with those comments.

I am a Pastafarian, and I have infinite faith that FSM had nothing to do with the lunar landing.

 

[bossa nova ♪]

. . .n****z

 

[Mr Wizzrobe]

M2K needs to give it a rest and start playing Melee exclusively.

 

[Max?]

TL;DR version of this thread:

Brawl sucks. Our community is old and the decisions we make about our ruleset are done to appease the remaining players left. Too many walls of text that no one is going to read because no one gives a **** what you think.

 

[ADHD]

I can't beat nairo on delfino.. I think it's happened like only once out of eight times. The sharking is just too powerful and time consuming to maintain anything consistent throughout the match. Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar are definitely even worse. Every other stage is generally tolerable.

 

[Mew2King]

ADHD i remember a time you said the MU was even (back when i couldn't touch you) then you had even games with ally's snake and lost to him once and you said Snake is broken and always talking about that. If you actually CHANGED UP WHAT YOU DID you would be able to beat me. And what about the time you THREE stocked ally's MK then lost to his snake twice? Was snake broken then? Or is that character, used by Ally, just so broken that you 3 stocked him. You were doing pretty good vs him at Genesis and then you double jump into his Dair (when you COULD have just DOUBLE JUMP AIR DODGED AND BEEN SAFE but I didn't teach you that then) then you totally gave up game 4 and then complained about MK afterwords. Anyway, the last few times we fought you always give up near the end as well. Then you go online and say you can't do anything, which is BS, and I'm telling you specifically "you do THIS in THIS situation" just like that, and the next time we fight you KEEP DOING THE SAME EXACT THING. But I know you don't really try anymore, because in the past year you ALWAYS give up, go online, be like "look I can't do anything" until you get tons of people to agree with you

the last time I saw you fight Nairo you BEAT HIM, and iirc he's the 4th best MK in the world and plays this game A LOT (you said this on the forums and he told me that himself). You won the set 2-1, and all 3 games were very close, with the delphino game being VERY close as well. This is the same day I 2 and 3 stocked you in the GF, and almost baet you in MK dittos WHILE I WAS USING ONE HAND (so you SUCKED). You keep trying to CHALLENGE him while he's doing Uairs, instead of just letting the time pass. Last few times I saw it it wasn't even CLOSE to time, you just do ridiculously risky things and get punished for it.

with that said, I still think 10 minutes would be a great upgrade to this game, like Japan uses.

 

[Pi]

3 stocks, 10 minutes?

 

[bossa nova ♪]

shoutouts to max


shoutouts to horrible games that stupid n****z try to make competitive


shoutouts to the candyland community


shoutouts to pros who don't adapt

 

[Mew2King]

And yes, I believe 10 min is better because, think about it. How many matches actually go to time? And how many go to them by A LOT?

Think about this scenario. You're both at last stock high %, and there is 1 min left on the clock. What are the odds you will try to time them out? I'd say pretty good.

Same scenario, but, 3 min left on the clock (10 min timer). Both at last stock high %. Its not likely either of you will be able to time the other one out.

In a big sense, it shortens matches sometimes by greatly DISCOURAGING timeouts, while also having them end by 3 KOs much much more frequently and easier than a time out wold be possible. It makes it much harder to do (the 2 minutes make a big difference). So if you guys say it would extend tournaments you can go shove that argument out the window.

 

[Deleted member]

**** brawl

 

[Kal]

While it discourages timeouts, M2K, it also encourages players to play more defensively when they are not in the lead. So there are two sides to this coin:

1) You play less campy if you're in the lead, because you have to wait longer to win by time.

2) You play more campy if you're not in the lead, because you have to wait longer to lose by time.

I don't know enough about Brawl to say what the net time-difference is on average, but I would expect that it wouldn't affect much.

 

[EPsilon933]

Meta Knight is too good on counter pick stages

Ban counter pick stages. COMPROMISE! Meta Knight stays and Meta Knight dominates the game less. But more importantly, counter pick stages aren't fit for competitive play. Degrades gameplay

10 minute time limit prevents time out strategies

Why not drop a stock instead?

 

[Mew2King]

edit - wrong thread

 

[Kal]

Ah, so he does know about the edit feature.

 

[Mew2King]

While it discourages timeouts, M2K, it also encourages players to play more defensively when they are not in the lead. So there are two sides to this coin:

1) You play less campy if you're in the lead, because you have to wait longer to win by time.

2) You play more campy if you're not in the lead, because you have to wait longer to lose by time.

I don't know enough about Brawl to say what the net time-difference is on average, but I would expect that it wouldn't affect much.

dude that's not true at all. If you're winning, you should be camping if you want to win. If you're losing, you need to bring the lead back. That will always apply regardless if you really want to win. The only difference that this makes is that winning via a time out (or as the smash community likes to say "gaying" people out) becomes much more difficult, it's discouraged, and also less likely to occur.

There's no reason not to do it except for the fact that people are used to 8 minutes and are afraid of change. 8 is too small for this game. It's 8 minutes in Melee, and those matches go by twice as fast.

 

[Claire Diviner]

For me, the thing that should warrant a ban on any character, is if said character is broken by design, like Guilty Gear's Justice, or Mortal Kombat 3's Shao Khan/Motaro. Meta Knight isn't really broken, as people have found ways to beat him. It's that players, like Mew2King, have found ways to use him that happens to be really effective. At that point, it's up to their opponents to study ways to combat their strategies. It's not like it's impossible either.

Also, what about Fox in Melee? I hear when mastered, he's nigh untouchable. No one complains about Fox users. Is it because he's hard to master? I see that as a double standard, since I'm sure if all Fox mains decide to take the time to master him completely and dedicate the dexterity and reflexes needed into muscle memory, people will start to cry foul then too.

Rambling ends here...

 

[Mew2King]

I hope people really take a good read at what I said and realize that 10 minutes is better. (If not more than 10).

 

[Ripple]

counter pick stages aren't fit for competitive play. Degrades gameplay

are you ****ing serious?

and fox isn't untouchable at all at top level. armada proved that.

what people sat is Fox's shine done frame perfectly makes him untouchable which is true but not even close to practical

 

[Claire Diviner]

I hope people read what I said and realize 10 minutes is better

I would've said 12 minutes, unless that's being over-excessive? I could also say to drop a stock, but 2 stocks would be WAY too little.

 

[Mew2King]

oh yeah I definitely agree. 12 would be way better, but I don't think people would go to something like that so easily, when the current standard is a ridiculous 8.

 

[ANTi_]

honestly shadwphoenx is right

ally you and anti, AND tyrant, all admitted to me that you copied the **** out of my MK. Besides tyrant, you two wouldn't have even mained him without my influence. I honestly think if I wasn't around since the VERY beginning ****** EVERY tourney, encouraging tons of people to pick him up, + all the videos, it would not be like this right now, AT ALL, especially since it's heavily based off who is in the finals and a lot of newbs look at amount-of-money won and me, +tyrant, you, anti, won a LOT of money. I always kept talking to tyrant and dojo among others about MK strats, ALL i wanted was to fully master the character as far as he could possibly be pushed, and I even took off 2 years of college to do it. I focused on metaknight when I should have focused on college especially 2 years ago during MLG.

I'm going to have a big writeup on a lot of things over next week or so since a lot of it gets lost in hundreds of disorganized posts of mine

if people knew as much as i did on this subject and what is REALLY going on, they would all see how terribly ****ed up it all is.

I picked up Meta Knight during one of Bum's tournament's game 5 vs Keitaro. Wtf you mean I wouldn't have mained him without your influence. Get the **** off your high horse. Only thing I ever took from you was that up b glide cancel to dsmash past their sheild mindgame.

Otherwise you just run away from your opponent in times of need, something you NEVER seen me do.

 

[Mew2King]

Anti, at 1:39 in your apex interview, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxBQ1ByIf34#t=1m36s, you said that you mained metaknight because of me. That's why I said that, because you said it on your interview

 

[ANTi_]

Anti, at 1:39 in your apex interview, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxBQ1ByIf34, you said that you mained metaknight because of me. That's why I said that, because you said it on your interview

Okay but you made it seem as if you totally influenced me, I just seen a guy doing well with Meta Knight so I pushed MK to the next level as well. Don't make it seem as if the only reason we play Meta Knight is because of you.

 

[Johnknight1]

are you ****ing serious?

and fox isn't untouchable at all at top level. armada proved that.

what people sat is Fox's shine done frame perfectly makes him untouchable which is true but not even close to practical

See that's a problem. There's a new movement of smashers (most of them are Brawl players) who don't want counter-pick stages, don't want something that beats their best character, and don't want to make the game better. Instead, people are being selfish, want the best rules to allow them to win and their opponent to lose, and they will whine, cry, and moan until they get it.

There's nothing wrong with wanting change if you give actual evidence something hurts the game.

For example, having beam swords on doesn't make the game "broken." It just gives the random player who gets the beam sword a better chance at winning. Thus, banning items was warranted; simple as that.

We get to all these stages and people are like "zOMG! Meta Knight is broken on them!" False (I'll use Rainbow Cruise since I know it best). People just hate that he planks because planking is lame, stalls the game, and makes it less entertaining. So you ban planking, or limit it. Then they argue that he dominates ever aspect of it. Yes, but that's because the Meta Knight players know how to use the stage, and you don't. Does Meta Knight have a huge advantage because of it? Yes. Does it warrant a ban? That depends on your opinion, but at least give evidence one way or another (you could say the stage encourages Meta Knights to plank).

Learn to play the game, and if something at the top of the competitive scene and something (random or not) still prevents you from winning (if you're the best), then it is banable.

Want Meta Knight banned tournies? Fine! Want Snake banned tournies? Fine! Just don't say something is broken because you can't win because you aren't good enough.

Edit: I agree that 10 should be the standard. If it works, keep it. If not, go back to 8 or go up to 12.

As for Melee, don't ban crap just because you don't like it. Ban it with evidence that isn't "it sux brah" like a lot more smashers seem to say nowadays.

 

[Mew2King]

okay, but I'm just saying I wasn't making stuff up, I only said that because you said it in your interview. I learned diddy cuz of talking to you so much during MLG season. I studied your ADHD videos like 20 times

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Well played, John.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Claire Diviner]

and fox isn't untouchable at all at top level. armada proved that.

what people sat is Fox's shine done frame perfectly makes him untouchable which is true but not even close to practical

Impractical perhaps, but still technically possible, which is the point. A moot point? Maybe. But a point nonetheless.

 

[Mew2King]

please don't talk about melee it's not related at all here