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What does "Competitive"mean? (Please read OP!)

Jam Stunna

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How can you objectively measure this term you use, "competitive"? First you need to define the term, then you need to justify your definition over other definitions, and finally you need to show/prove why Brawl is less competitive than Melee. It isn't a simple process, in the end the argument is pretty much like the one where some people want wobbling banned in Melee and others do not-some say wobbling makes the game "less competitive", others (like me), say it makes it "more competitive".

A few months ago, Scar tried to do just that with his thread. However, that discussion was limited in scope to the Melee vs. Brawl debate, and as such degenerated into snipe attacks between supporters of the two games.

For this discussion, I want to open it up to come to a community decision: what does "competitive" mean in the most general sense as it pertains to Smash? I think that if we're going to be a community of competitions, it's important that we have an understanding of what the word actually means to us.

To that end, I encourage all players to submit and discuss their definition of "competitive". I want opinions of all levels, from the newest newb to the most seasoned pro; from those who joined yesterday to those who joined in 2001; from those who love Brawl to those who love Melee. The goal is to come to a consensus declarative statement of what competitive means in terms of our community.

Once again, this has implications far beyond the stale Melee vs. Brawl debate. I believe that a community-wide understanding of competitiveness is the crucial starting point in discussing all future aspects of the game, from wobbling to D3's infinite to Metaknight to Hyrule Temple. With a standard definition, once a problem is discovered, we can compare that problem to our definition and OBJECTIVELY come to a decision. Does [insert controversial topic here] conform to the community's definition of competition? If so, leave it alone. If not, ban away. I considered submitting this idea to several SBR members, but the fact they haven't already issued a statement on the subject in the seven years since Melee's release demonstrates that it's not particularly high on their priority list.

While it's true that competing interests may hope to define "competitive" in a way that serves their purpose (for example, a pro-Melee person may intentionally define "competitive" in such a way as to categorically exclude Brawl), it is my hope that by having as large of a cross-section of opinions as possible, the special interests effect will be minimized.

So, post your opinions as to what you consider competitive. I will read every post that is made between now and 11:59 PM EST, January 9th 2009. After that two-week period, I will synthesize the best points that have been made into a single community definition that I will post no later than January 20th, the first day of my college's semester. As far as I'm concerned, this is THE END ALL STATEMENT on competitiveness. It's open to everyone, and you have no one but yourself to blame if you don't participate.

As a starting point, here are some dictionary definitions of competitiveness:

1. From Dictionary.com

2. From Merriam-Webster Online

3. From Cambridge Dictionaries Online

4. From YourDictionary.com

AlphaZealot EDIT: To keep this from becoming a debate we want to avoid, please do not mention Melee or Brawl in your definitions, posts, or analysis. Such things can be talked about if/when we actually have some near consensus on a definition. Feel free to delete this edit Jam and reword it somewhere in the OP.
 

noodles

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for me its the mentality that i need to be better than everyone else i guess
 

Amide

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Even looking things over from the sites, you can still come out with totally different meanings, one which favors Brawl, other Melee. There's 1: Activity surrounded by competition.

With that, Brawl is more competitive because it is played competitively more. However, (From Dictionary.com):

well suited for competition

This more easily favors Melee, because it is a better competitive game.

More thoughts later.
 

Jam Stunna

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Well, I'm not really looking for interpretation of definitions as much as I'm looking for what YOU consider it to mean.
 

Amide

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In that case, I'll have to go with the first definition. Competitive doesn't really relate to depth at all; in that case, chess would be more competitive than track. But nobody really considers that truth.

I'll have to say that competitiveness revolves around the amount of competition. (I still prefer Melee competitively though.)
 

Jingo_Joe

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Competitive to me is the ability for a game to bring about a winner in a way that is not only fair, but gives the advantage to the more experienced player. I'll get into fair in a minute, but for now, lets elaborate what I mean about winning.

When we play a game, our goal is to come out on top, to come out winners. Even casual players play to win. Maybe its human nature, or maybe its just something for us to do when bored, but we love the idea of being able to find ourselves successful at something. If we didn't, we wouldn't be here discussing our games, trying to be better than before we came here.

So the game has to have a clear winner, but most importantly, it has to be fair while giving an advantage to the more experienced, and there for more skilled, player. For example, flipping a coin is fair, but gives an advantage to no one no matter how long they've been flipping coins. No one would play a game if it could be summed up to a coin toss. We smash players remove many coins. Stages that randomly attack us, items that randomly spawn, they're all removed.

That of course is the reason we Smash players are made fun of, playing a kids game, a game of luck. Most pro-games do not change the core game like we do. We remove so much. In fact, the largest thing we do is something as far as I can tell is something all pro games do. We make it 1v1. Even team games are 1v1. 1 player on 1 player, 1 team on 1 team, it doesn't matter, as long as there is only 2 combatants. With any more, it becomes just as random as it would be if we had items on, and played on Flat Zone 2. However, its hard to explain what we do in one breath, so we get poked at by SF players. Big deal.

Anyway, that pretty much sums up what being competitive is.

- Must be some variation of 1v1
- Must be originally fair
- But at the same time give advantage to the more experienced (ie: skilled) player


-
 

JPOBS

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Competition (and by extension competitiveness) means to me the most fair, just, and standard way to judge the relative skill of a player in relation to another.


Depth may or may not factor into the area of competition. However, i believe that for every possible action, there should be and equal and opposite counter. and to that counter, a counter. and so on. the more options and counters avaible, the the greater the depth and competition. thats why i think melee is more competitive than brawl, but brawl is also competitive based on my barebones definition.

Also, luck should be as small a factor of the game as possible, preferably non-existant. That why i dont think of Poker as being a competitive game. There is too much ridding on luck in my opinion.
 

EWING

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On one level, I think that the intention of this thread is in the right direction. It would be fantastic to have a single sentence/paragraph that could cogently express what the community aims for in terms of establishing the best parameters for tournament play. It would aid with making rules and encouraging 'the best' gaming environment.

On the other hand, I think that its an essentialist project, and, because of the status of the community, it is not realistic. There is, in my opinion, no possible way to synthesize all of the possible information/data/arguments you would need to create a single definition for competitive and still produce anything useful. Further, it is equally impossible to make the entire community (or even a convincing majority) agree on one definition.

I think the solution is what we've done for the past few years (almost 8 now!) and keep the system fluid. We've been doing just fine through it, and although you'll get the standard poster who proclaims that such and such is the harbinger of the end of the game(s) as we know it, nothing that earthshaking seems to ever happen. Basically, I think we need to keep things like this organic. We need to allow for the notion of 'competitiveness' to evolve and change as the metagame changes, as the community changes, and as the tournament scene changes. That's probably the closest we can get to an effective definition.
 

thumbswayup

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Here's something I wrote in a thread I made a while back:

"If you had to give just one reason why you love Melee so much, what would it be?

I used to be the most hopeless smasher. I couldn't wavedash or L-cancel to save my life. I remember thinking I'd never be able to waveshine or pillar with fox and falco. I remember practicing everyday for months and not seeing any improvement. And then I remember one day, out of nowhere, I pillared with Falco. I almost dropped my controller. Soon after, I was waveshining with Fox consistently. I pulled off my first triple knee shortly after that. The list goes on and on. For me, it's the feeling I get when I see myself doing things I thought impossible only months before. That's my favorite part."

The second to last line is what makes something competitive imo. It has to take practice and being able to see improvements over time in order to be considered competitive. Once I mastered glide tossing with Diddy in Brawl and figured out how to legimately combo with him, there was not much else I could do. I never saw real improvements on my game after that and I would be very inconsistant with my tournament placings from that point on. One week I would be going even with Chudat and Azen, the next I'd lose to Hat and Sin (a random rolling Lucario), despite hours of practice the day before.

I've been playing competitive Brawl since it came out, and I've continued to see certain characters dominate others and camping be incredibly effective. It seems that a much weaker player can just quickly pick up a character capable of winning with less skill (MK, ROB, etc.) and beat a much stronger and experienced player by camping the living hell out of them. It doesn't require any skill whatsoever to do this. It pains me to know that if I really wanted to I could beat people I normally would lose to by ledgecamping them for 7 minutes.

That's something that destroys competitiveness, when a simplier and much less skillful strategy allows you to win over a better player. Now, there was camping in Melee, but it was not nearly as effective nor as prevalent. Almost no one camped in Melee because there were smarter and better tactics to employ. You also had a ton more options at any given situation, which made the game so interesting.

Other elements of Brawl such as tripping also detract from it's competitive value. When random things occur during gameplay that cause an outcome that otherwise never would have happened, it makes for horrible competitiveness. It's something that's completely out of your control, and it can greatly affect the results of a match.
 

DarkDragoon

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I don't have a competitive bone in my body.

But if I did, I would say its the drive to be better than the others, and increased competition levels increase the extremity of the rituals you go through to become better.

-DD
 

Jam Stunna

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On one level, I think that the intention of this thread is in the right direction. It would be fantastic to have a single sentence/paragraph that could cogently express what the community aims for in terms of establishing the best parameters for tournament play. It would aid with making rules and encouraging 'the best' gaming environment.

On the other hand, I think that its an essentialist project, and, because of the status of the community, it is not realistic. There is, in my opinion, no possible way to synthesize all of the possible information/data/arguments you would need to create a single definition for competitive and still produce anything useful. Further, it is equally impossible to make the entire community (or even a convincing majority) agree on one definition.

I think the solution is what we've done for the past few years (almost 8 now!) and keep the system fluid. We've been doing just fine through it, and although you'll get the standard poster who proclaims that such and such is the harbinger of the end of the game(s) as we know it, nothing that earthshaking seems to ever happen. Basically, I think we need to keep things like this organic. We need to allow for the notion of 'competitiveness' to evolve and change as the metagame changes, as the community changes, and as the tournament scene changes. That's probably the closest we can get to an effective definition.
You have a legitimate point, but there are some things that have proven to be constant throughout the development of Melee/Brawl, such as anti-stalling rules. If nothing else is really possible, I would at least like to come to a communal decision about things like that, which directly influence competition yet have remained constant throughout metage development.

Other elements of Brawl such as tripping also detract from it's competitive value. When random things occur during gameplay that cause an outcome that otherwise never would have happened, it makes for horrible competitiveness. It's something that's completely out of your control, and it can greatly affect the results of a match.
To be fair, that can accurately describe Peach pulling out Doom Turnips and Bob-ombs in Melee as well. I think we should go one step further and say that luck does have a place in competitiveness, but only when it rewards as opposed to punishes. I think it's fair to say that pulling a Doom Turnip rewards the Peach player, while tripping punishes the character who mashed the analog stick forward.

True, you can write those statements in their inverse and they would technically still be true (pulling a Doom Turnip punishes the non-Peach player; tripping rewards the player that stands still), but I don't think most Smash players would characterize these situations in such a way. Since this is a fighting game, I think we should define the benefits of an outcome in an active sense. The Peach player pressed downB, so good and bad consequences are defined by him.

I don't have a competitive bone in my body.

But if I did, I would say its the drive to be better than the others, and increased competition levels increase the extremity of the rituals you go through to become better.

-DD
I still <3 you Nick.
 

Wuss

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Competitive is the name ascribed to an ordinal scale. The scale represents relative "competitiveness." Level of competitiveness is given by various factors in a game; factors such as: required skill (low end of necessary skill), unrequired skill (high end of necessary skill). Now, how to define skill? IMO, it involves everything (in smash) from L-canceling to the deepest mindgames out there. In other words, I think that competitiveness is related to the breadth of skill necessary to play the game. The problem I run in to, is whether viability and popularity factor in or not? Does a game need to be popular to be competitive? I would say. Another factor in assessing competitiveness must be popularity, and demand for competitive scene. Whether this relates to melee vs brawl is another question. I guess it doesn't because the point of the question is to ascertain which game SHOULD be more popular. Therefore, imo, it all comes down to which game require the largest breadth of skill.
 

Oracle

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To me it means "good for competition"

To see if something is just that, what should we know?

Does the best person win? Obviously, a lack of randomness is essential.

How difficult is it?
Why ask this? Because if a game is difficult, it requires practice, which is essential for a competitive game. If a game requires no practice, it isn't competitive because there is no skill gap.
 
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adjective- to foster the will or desire to defeat the opponent(s) in a means considered satisfactory and final by all participating contestants.
 

Jam Stunna

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Do you think that's a satisfactory definition to determine whether or not infinites should be legal?

I suppose that competitiveness seems like a complicated idea, but it's really not. We all have basic ideas as to what makes a game tournament worthy and what does not. If our definition is too general, then anything is tourney-worthy, so we obviously need to go beyond that.

For me, competitive in the tournament sense embodies a few things.

1) The game in question has safeguards against stalling.
2) The game gives each player of equal skill a reasonable shot at victory.
3) Random occurrences are minimized, but don't have to be completely removed.
4) The game is reasonably balanced.
5) The game encourages individual achievement and improvement.
6) A sufficiently high threshold of technical skill is present.

It has occurred to me recently that Smash as a series doesn't really satisfy all of these standards. The game in it's pre-SWF form (that is, before professional tactics and rules are applied) actively rewards stalling. Equal skill does not guarantee a reasonable chance of victory, randomness is commonplace and intentional, and Smash is nowhere near balanced. In fact, the only conditions that any Smash game satisfies are the last two, and even that's debatable.

So I play a game competitively that doesn't even meet my own definition of competitiveness (and I suspect that this is true for a rather significant minority of players). I guess this is one of the major problems with Smash: whether it's Smash 64, Melee or Brawl, it wasn't designed to be competitive, and upon close scrutiny the series really doesn't hold water. I think that out of this essentially infertile ground grows the numerous problems that have been encountered since the tournament scene began. Fox, Sheik and Marth have won almost every major tournament because, practically speaking, they're the only characters that can.

This is what makes the individual achievements of players like Skler, Bum, Chu Dat and Mango, among others, so impressive. We all recognize that the deck is incredibly stacked against them, yet they still find ways to win through hard work and excellent play. I think that this is one of those intangible elements of competitiveness: the ability and desire to overcome adversity, even if that adversity is presented in the form of game design itself. That may actually be the true saving grace of Smash as a competitive series. It's what inspires me to keep playing for the time being, at least.
 

AlphaZealot

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Keep in mind "equal skill" is a tough thing to call. Tier lists are inherent to fighting games, meaning you will have to have, theoretically, more skill than your opponent to win with a lower tiered character over a higher tiered character.
 

EWING

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Keep in mind "equal skill" is a tough thing to call. Tier lists are inherent to fighting games, meaning you will have to have, theoretically, more skill than your opponent to win with a lower tiered character over a higher tiered character.
I think it depends more on the specific character matchup (ie: Peach > Olimar 1v1 despite his higher position on the tier list), but I agree with what you're trying to say.
 

Jack Kieser

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Ok, first of all, I want to say that Jam Stunna is sexy, every one of his posts is sexy, and, were it possible, I'd have his babies right now. That being said, I really want to take a look into this subject (I've debated on it quite a bit in the past), so I'm pouring over game design theory right now and doing research so I can formulate a well-thought out response to this question. Hopefully, I'll be able to factor in actual game design into the book definitions of "competition" so we can find something actually usable on the pro-/anti-ban front.

Wish me luck. :p
 

Amazing Ampharos

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Jam Stunna makes a good topic, but I disagree with several of the individual points raised because, if nothing else, they are designed to be specific to fighting games. A theory for competitive value should be all inclusive; you should be able to explain why a game like chess or poker is good for competitive play as easily as you should be able to explain melee or brawl (or refute those games being competitive I suppose).

In order to develop a theory, I'll start by examining some attributes that I believe exist in every competitive games.

1. The primary factor in determining a winner must be decision making. Fighting games usually pass this on the basis that doing the right moves at the right times is a choice, and that's usually what makes the difference at high levels. In chess and the other abstract strategy games, decision making is all that there is really. In the highly random games such as Pokemon or poker, there is still a lot of decision making at every step, and while you have no "guaranteed" winning strategies, better strategies are significantly more likely to win to the point that at high levels the strategies are the most important things in the game.

2. The game in question must be primarily mental. By my definition, physical sports in general fail as competitive games as the primary factor in determining victory in those is the strength of the players (speed, agility, and whatnot are forms of strength don't try to make a stupid objection). In poker, the strategies are what matter, but what if you weren't allowed to look at your cards in the Texas Hold'em variation of poker? That would not be a competitive game; the overwhelmingly most important factor at that point would be randomness. Fighting games could fail here if they became "too technical". That is, if at high levels what REALLY separated players was their ability to make accurate inputs (as opposed to correct inputs), a fighting game would be degenerate and non-competitive. Fortunately, that seems to be rare; I can't find a good example of that.

3. The game must have a sufficiently wide array of plausible decisions such that a "best strategy" is not known even at the highest level. Tic tac toe is the easy example to pick on here; it would be fairly easy to find players who know the perfect strategies so the game cannot be taken seriously as a competitive game. Games of imperfect information or indeterminate outcomes tend to get off easier here, but they can still fail if one factor overwhelms the others. For instance, in Turtles Tournament Fighter (Genesis), every character except Donatello can do an infinite throw loop out of any throw. That game is a degenerate competitive game because all decisions revolve around "land throw loops". Do not that this applies ONLY to real players; a game like checkers may have a perfect strategy known (and before long, chess will be this way too), but since no players are able to remember the entire strategy, it does not necessarily ruin the game at a competitive level.

These are the only three truly universal factors I see in competitive games. They are mental games whose winners are determined by good decisions and in which a perfect strategy is not known by any players. These are indeed the only truly necessary components, but here are some factors that I believe are important for improving an abstract competitive game.

1. All players must have as close to an equal chance of winning as possible. Asymmetric games suffer with this occasionally. In chess, white has a better chance to win or draw than black; chess is still a competitive game, but it would be a better competitive game if the two sides had more similar win/draw/lose rates. 3v1 smash bros is a competitive game in the strictest sense, but it's a really bad competitive game because it's so unfair. Games with a political element such as Risk or Survivor or free for all Smash Bros inherently suffer here; a player can be reduced to a nearly zero chance of winning if the other players simply conspire against him.

2. The entire game should be relevant to the outcome. Monopoly is a good example of a game that fails here; in Monopoly, the game is usually effectively over when less than 25% of the game is complete. One player tends to have the obviously best position, and from that point it is just a matter of process to divine the winner with only fluke luck or various degenerate elements able to take it off track. This is to say that games with "slippery slope" are inherently worse competitive games. Slippery slope will always exist to some extent, but the greater the extent, the more damage it does to the game. Additionally, games with long "pre-game" periods in which the decisions made don't really matter at all would suffer here. Some damage is actually seen commonly in fighting games with overly lengthy combos or super animations; while those combos are being performed or those supers are going off, nothing matters. The game would be better if the damage earned from those were awarded more quickly so "real play" could resume.

3. Cheating must be difficult. Ingame Pokemon is an awful competitive game because of this; it's very easy to cheat by hacking Pokemon and never be caught. Rules such as "no camping" that are really easy to "slightly break" and get away with really hurt a game as the game degenerates into breaking the rules as much as possible without getting punished.

4. The rules must be clearly defined. A dance competition may be competitive in the strictest sense, but dancing is a terrible competitive game since it's very unclear exactly what things constitute winning moves, and in the end the winners will be the ones who match up with the subjective views of the judges just as much as with the objective hard rules of the competition.

5. The game should not reward material advantages. This is inevitable to some extent; fighting games reward finger coordination, and even chess punishes players with severe physical disabilities as they will inevitably require more time to make their moves and thus have less time on their clock. However, the bigger the material advantages, the worse it is. Ingame Pokemon suffers another big blow here as training a team (which is not a part of the actual game since it's an independent activity) grants huge material advantages to the players who do a better job at it (which probably means just investing more time). MMORPGs all suck as competitive games by this criteria as well. Casino style poker (as opposed to tournament poker) even fails here; the richer players have a clear advantage.

6. The game should have standardized rules as much as possible. Monopoly is kinda famous for having various "house rules" that change how the game is played, some of them radically. In fighting games, the usual choice is to choose with an almost religious zeal to use one version of the game with default settings and to viciously reject any alternate versions (it's rude, but it gets the job done). Smash Bros has historically really struggled with this; our community is actually famous for this problem...

7. Avoiding disqualification should be a minimal aspect of the game. Basically, failing to follow the simple rules of the game shouldn't be a big concern. The winner should almost always be the player who played the game the best, not the one who managed to play the game at all. Basketball is a bad game for a lot of reasons, but one of its flaws is that intentionally committing fouls (which are against the rules) is a good strategy as long as you don't do it too much and get disqualified.

This leaves a lot of room up for debate about rules, but it does give us a lot of guidance. By making our two standard versions of play 1v1 and 2v2, we removed all political aspects from Smash Bros which makes the game completely satisfy 2-1. Removing items helped us follow rules 1-1 and 1-2 in the sense that we massively reduced the luck component of the game. Banning a stage like the Temple helps us avoid ruining the game in accordance with 1-3. Using a counterpicking system somewhat helps us on 2-2 (making the character and stage selection portions of the game strategic as well). This could be developed toward the actually controversial issues or toward an analysis of our two competing games, but that would exceed the scope of this topic.

This is only a start; I am not calling this a complete theory and may add more later.
 

Jack Kieser

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So, my boss walked in and took away about an hour and a half that I COULD have used writing... :laugh: So, I'll probably be posting my essay tomorrow. It's gonna be a DOOZY, too. I apologize in advance to your poor eyes.
 

Jam Stunna

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Ampharos, I haven't read your entire post yet, but the reason why I haven't defined competition in terms of poker is because competitive poker has nothing to do with competitive Smash. The games are totally different, and we'd be here forever if we tried to define competition across ALL genres and sports. We need to narrow our focus if we're going to accomplish anything.
 

Harbinger631

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I would say that something is competitive when there is a test between multiple parties in the persuit of perfection.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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If we don't work as a sufficiently broad level, then we are going to be at the same place we already are... that is the place where everyone says that whatever they like is what is competitive. I think my post was useful regardless, and I disagree about needing to define competition in terms of particular games. It is an abstract concept that applies to games, not something defined from games.
 

Jam Stunna

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Keep in mind "equal skill" is a tough thing to call. Tier lists are inherent to fighting games, meaning you will have to have, theoretically, more skill than your opponent to win with a lower tiered character over a higher tiered character.
I agree with you that tiers are inevitable. Difference in design leads to difference in ability. Hence why I used the qualifier "reasonable", as in reasonable chance at victory.

Compare the tier structure of Guilty Gear to Smash. Bridget is a bottom tier character in GG, yet here in my home state, two major GG tournaments have been won by players who mained Bridget. Meanwhile, there has never been a major Smash tournament won in CT by a bottom-tier main. True, this is only anecdotal evidence, but I think it demonstrates that a bottom-tier main has a reasonable chance to win in GG, whereas it's literally impossible for a bottom-tier main in Smash to win major tournaments.

Ampharos, I take issue with several of the points you made, but in the interest of time (I'm at work right now) I'll only address the ones that stand out to me most.

3. The game must have a sufficiently wide array of plausible decisions such that a "best strategy" is not known even at the highest level.
I understand what you're getting at, but the lack of a "best strategy" is actually a hallmark of a non-competitive game. If you can do anything and win, then there's no need to practice or improve. Developing a "best strategy" is what metagame is all about.

5. The game should not reward material advantages.
This I totally disagree with. To extend your Pokemon analogy, what you're suggesting is that a level 50 Pikachu should have an equal chance of defeating a level 100 Diglet, regardless of the fact that ground types are immune to electricity and the Diglet is significantly stronger than the Pikachu. Level-grinding is NOT a separate part of Pokemon, it's one of the core gameplay mechanics.

Disregarding material advantage is absurd. That's like saying that a high school football team should be given an equal chance to defeat an NFL football team, despite the fact that these professional atheletes outclass them in every single way. The only way to remedy material advantage is to handicap one side, which is by it's nature non-competitive. Everything about Smash would break down by removing material advantage: counterpicks, Dave's Stupid Rule, random-knockout, etc. That would also remove the mental and strategic aspects of the game, which you said is also critical. If everything is equal, what do you need to think for?
 

Roager

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 14, 2008
Messages
704
Location
Idaho
Here's my take on it.

I see two different philosophies about what "competitive" is: I will refer to them as the hardcore and the casual.

The Hardcore: Skill wins out over everything else, and he who practices more gains more skill, and is thusly successful. Competitive is defined here as "that which facilitates the most perfect competition" if perfect competition rewards the player who is simply better at the game. Personal improvement is key.

The Upside: You win by being better. That makes sense, and is the basis of most competition.

The Downside: You get better over time, and if you fall behind, you will likely stay there. It's a pretty exclusive system. Scares off newbies.

The Casual: While technical skill is still important, rewards are best reaped with a less rigorous plan. How you play is more important than how well you play. That is, even skill loses out to a superior tactic. Competitive is defined here as "that which most perfectly facilitates competition" if perfect facilitation allows for more even fights with less preparation.

The Upside: It allows for far more people to play and have a legitimate chance to win.

The Downside: Few things are more frustrating than working your *** off to get good at something, then lose to somebody who started playing a week ago.

Brawl, and Smash in general, was built to fit the Casual competition. This is the biggest criticism of Brawl that I've heard from Melee fans. It allows for too many n00b wins. Technical skill is thrown out. True to a degree, but that's what Brawl was made to be. To attract more people to play it, veteran or newbie. To level the playing field.

That's the advantage of Brawl. You don't have to know how to wavedash, or pillar, or l cancel, or anything else. You just learn your character, read your opponent, and respond. It's still possible to be better than other people. You're just less better.
 

Pierce7d

Wise Hermit
Joined
Dec 20, 2006
Messages
6,289
Location
Teaneck, North Bergen County, NJ, USA
3DS FC
1993-9028-0439
Eh, I disagree. Forgive me for getting off topic, but here's some food for thought.

Having memorized all the important frame data for the vast majority of important match-ups. When something hits my shield, I know if I have time to react with:

Dolphin Slash out of shield,
Shield grab
Fair out of shield
Shield drop Dancing Blade
Shield drop Dsmash
Shield drop Dtilt
Shield drop Fsmash
Shield drop Usmash

with Marth. I listed the moves in order of speed, and I know when I can use each. It greatly increases my punishment game. I do not need to practice any of these inputs, I simply study. A VAST MAJORITY of my "practice" in Brawl, is in fact, studying (I say this all the time). This effectively makes me better than many of my opponents. Does that make Brawl more or less competative?

Also, I don't think you can say time is a material advantage. It's a universal quantifier. Brawl is not less competative because I have more time to read Smashboards than other people . . . or is it?

Both AA and JS are sexy people.
 

dmbrandon

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2005
Messages
3,257
Location
The Sun.
It means to not sit on a message board trying to sound intelligent amongst a group of your peers. Seriously, why the **** are you kids so worried about such trivial, useless nonsense. Either pick up the controller and play the game, or gtfo.

This kind of pointless posting is the reason our community is trash right now. Don't like a game? Don't play it? Like them both, play them both.

Trying to decipher something's competitive value is structurally bound to the nature of the players. You're all ****ing nerds.
 

Pierce7d

Wise Hermit
Joined
Dec 20, 2006
Messages
6,289
Location
Teaneck, North Bergen County, NJ, USA
3DS FC
1993-9028-0439
It means to not sit on a message board trying to sound intelligent amongst a group of your peers. Seriously, why the **** are you kids so worried about such trivial, useless nonsense. Either pick up the controller and play the game, or gtfo.

This kind of pointless posting is the reason our community is trash right now. Don't like a game? Don't play it? Like them both, play them both.

Trying to decipher something's competitive value is structurally bound to the nature of the players. You're all ****ing nerds.
Wow DM, wth do you always have to go over the top with everything. Ever consider following your own advice? Don't like a thread? Reply. Like it? Contribute. Ever consider some of us ENJOY the conversation. I think we're free to do and talk about whatever the hell we want.

FYI, we don't just post to "impress people". And your ogrish approach of getting your point across isn't any form of impressive. Communities with attitudes like that are the ones really frowned upon, in all aspects of life.

You're too cool and smart of a person to come out your face with stupid shiz like this. What's going on man? I actually think your second to last sentence has some decent on topic merit to it, if you'd care to elaborate in a civil manner. And, to put it as you do, don't be a ****ing *******.
 

Roager

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 14, 2008
Messages
704
Location
Idaho
Eh, I disagree. Forgive me for getting off topic, but here's some food for thought.

Having memorized all the important frame data for the vast majority of important match-ups. When something hits my shield, I know if I have time to react with:

Dolphin Slash out of shield,
Shield grab
Fair out of shield
Shield drop Dancing Blade
Shield drop Dsmash
Shield drop Dtilt
Shield drop Fsmash
Shield drop Usmash

with Marth. I listed the moves in order of speed, and I know when I can use each. It greatly increases my punishment game. I do not need to practice any of these inputs, I simply study. A VAST MAJORITY of my "practice" in Brawl, is in fact, studying (I say this all the time). This effectively makes me better than many of my opponents. Does that make Brawl more or less competative?

Also, I don't think you can say time is a material advantage. It's a universal quantifier. Brawl is not less competative because I have more time to read Smashboards than other people . . . or is it?

Both AA and JS are sexy people.
That's a good point. Melee was largely about technical skill and outdoing the opponent with sheer quickness and precision. That's why Marth, Falcon, and the Spacies got top spots. Brawl puts much less focus on that kind of thing. In fact, to my knowledge, Melee was never meant to be about that. Wavedash, while not a glitch, was an unintended side effect of the airdodges present in melee. So, since brawl is without such a mechanic, as of yet, one of (if not the) best routes for being better is to know the game better than your opponent does.

I can't tell if that's more or less competitive, but it's certainly a different kind of competitive.
 

Uck

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 8, 2006
Messages
333
Location
Sanford Florida
This thread makes me worry about our educational system...

This is easy mode.

All things can pretty much be competitive.I dont need links to define this.<-- This is the commonsense part.

The point is that how much practice it takes to excell or depth does a sport or game or whatever has.There needs to be room for self improvement.

The choice is yours you can compete throwing quarters as far as you can or you can compete throwing quarters as far as you can into a CUP!

I prefer throwing as far as I can into a cup because its harder and that is what makes a competition great.

Commonsense stuff...

That being said...

I ask you if everyone in the world could easily be a pro basketball player then is it really pro basketball anymore?Is it a great competition anymore? Heh why do we pay them millions of dollars again??

DMBrandon is the smartest guy in this thread.

The question shouldnt be what the definition of competitiveness is but what makes a competitive game great <--Even though both are very common sense.
 
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