What do you think was Super Smash Bros. Melee's biggest fault?

[Kirye]

Hm.. Melee's biggest fault, i'd have to say the no online play. Granted, Gamecube and Melee were new to each other, and online wasn't really around then. Actually, online was only for PSO, I think.

Do I think chars are overpowered? No, I just think people are whiners, they wouldn't say **** if they won.
Do I think clones were a stupid idea? Nope, I prefer having Ganondorf in the game, be it that he had someone elses moveset. The fact of the matter is that they had him in the game, he was unique in his own way, and he was awesome. I didn't like Pichu any, but I don't think that was a game fault. =\

What they could've done though, is make Adventure a little more, er, adventurous. There were very few actual walking stages. First time I played it through, I was expecting a Donkey Kong stage similar to the SNES platformers. But neh, just a battle stage. =(

We can hope in Brawl? *-*

 

[_Phloat_]

Too many pointless moves. Ganon's utilt/neutral b, Peach's side B, Ness's Dsmash...

Peaches side b is hawt beyond beeleef...

OK!

Anyways, have you ever used that thing at the top of the fin at cornaria? Not at the top, but so you glance the top of the fin and go flying?

Anyways, I agree with this, I feel bad for my friend when he thinks he finds a good move and I just shine him again >_<

 

[gnosis]

The most clear-cut issues for me are balance (saying it's 'not imbalanced' is a blatant falsehood; it's good, but it could always use some tweaking), lack of customization for Stamina mode, and the inability to turn off containers while still having items on. I'm very involved in competitive play, but I do enjoy casual scrub Smash from time to time, so more options would be nice.

I feel like L-cancelling adds artificial difficulty. It's not hard once you have it down, of course, but the technique adds a barrier I feel may be unnecessary.

Problem is, I don't see a solution. Just setting all aerials to L-cancelling's recovery time seems risky (In Melee, shine combos come to mind, though who knows what Brawl might bring), whereas removing it and leaving aerials as they are or at some halfway point would be too slow. So I ultimately don't think it's a flaw, just an annoyance for a scrub-trainer like me.

Another thing is the good chunk of people I know who don't like the feel of Melee, describing it as slippery, or noting how the sense of real impact that Smash 64 has disappeared.

As for that complaint, I'd only say I'm not entirely opposed to Brawl being a sort of compromise between 64 and Melee's distinct feels. Which, based on the trailers, it kinda looks like a midway point with some new flavor thrown in.

 

[_Phloat_]

Another flaw is the physics of flying through the air..

Like you said, I enjoy a little FFA action every once in a while, and I like it to be fair (at least a little)

tell me this, if you are flying through the air approaching mach 5, should you stop when you hit a turnip???

No, you should both continue to fly, that is why I feel attacks' knockback should be affected my the momentum of the target, which would also add more skill to on the fly combo-ing that smash is famous for!

 

[MookieRah]

Speaking with momentum, I don't think you should slide across the stage after teching in place due to momentum.

The clones aren't a problem IMO, they could have used a little more diversity, but to be really honest no clone other than Mario/Doc play remotely like the other.

I think the biggest amount of unpolished stuff comes from stages. A large portion of the stages have various bugs that interfere with the match. Some more than others. A lot can be avoided with knowledge of the stage, but that still doesn't change the fact that it's existance was purely because the glitch wasn't caught.

These are just minor things though. Yeah, hopefully they will tweak balance more, but if Brawl is as balanced as Melee that would definitely be above satisfactory. Melee's balance isn't that bad, even if there are blatant problems. Just compare it to many other fighters.

 

[ToXn]

Just space animals. Basically in brawl I want more then top 2/5 characters able to win tournaments.

 

[Jumanji]

AI anyone? I have never played an game that the AI was as bad as Smash. All you have to do to beat a lvl 9 computer is find the c-stick, understand how to jump and up-B. Done! You can now beat a lvl 9 computer. Ridiculous.
BTW can you really consider a lack of online play a flaw? Online play was not an option on the cube, would not have been lagless (which translates to useless) and would have not been worth the $ because of the high number of people who had dial up in 2001. You can't complain about Ocarina of Times graphics or the simplicity of Mario Brothers, and you shouldn't be able to complain about the lack of online play for Melee.

 

[WhiteZER0]

Good arguement, Ju. And ya, I gotta say, the AI weren't all that great either (at least once you got better at it). Course, we have a LOT more technology since 2001, and have advanced so much more. I'm sure we can expect much better AI this time around.

I can name a few:

1. CLONES (biggest problem)

2. UNNECESSARY TECHS/MOVES (you guys should know which ones)

3. BAD ITEMS (They're fun to use (if you're playing a casual match with friends/etc.), but their were just some pointless ones that they put in the game)

 

[Master Peach]

Fox IMO has too power and not enough weakness'. Playing my bro all the time, he's too **** good with him. One reason being is all the advantages Fox has and the power of his moves, it makes it easier for him to KO people.

Marth. My only complaint with him is that Forward Smash. Not saying it should have a lot of power but it has too much power. The tip of his sword can kill anyone easily, especially for those who spam the move. I tell i get sick of playing my friend when he's using Marth. Forever Spamming Marth's Smash. He always ends up winning because he keep spamming the move. Did 3 times in a row one time. Talk about weak. On top of that he thinks his Marth is pro because of it.

If Sakurai could just tone down there power just a bit, not so much that it doesn't effect the opponent, but just enough that they can't kill a person a 40% damage... cheap. Anyways that how I feel. He could probably do the same for peach. I get sick of people saying she's cheap.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

Clones were kind of disappointing, but they didn't take away from the game. The lack of online is excusable, since it released within a month of the GCN's release, even before M$ started putting out online games. Melee really didn't have any huge faults, except that I think balance could have been considerably better - And no, I'm not *****ing: But really, some characters got shafted, and others were too easy to use (Shiek and Marth, cough cough).

 

[gnosis]

With all this talk about balance, I'm reminded of the problem the huge divide in how casual and competitive players judge overpoweredness.

For example, the PAL changes. Some seemed to be made with competitive Melee in mind, such as Marth's dair becoming a meteor, Sheik's dthrow losing it's combo potential, Fox getting lighter, etc. Of course, these changes could be attributed to casual play too, and it's likely that's where they come from.

What seems to definitely not come from competitive play is Ganondorf's fair being weakened (which I hadn't heard of until recently, actually), Yoshi's dair being weakened, Bowser's flame cancelling being removed while Falco's laser cancelling was not, etc. These were characters that did not needed to be weakened in the competitive scene; they, if anything, needed some buffing.

But for casual players, some of these things might be considered overpowered. The range and strength of Ganondorf's fair can be pretty annoying to a competitive player, let alone a scrub who doesn't know how to deal with it being spammed. I guess the same goes for Yoshi's dair? I don't know, it's been forever since I was a total scrub.

Anyway, the point is, I fear Brawl's balancing may be headed the same direction; the developers may focus on balance, but so far it seems like they focus on it in casual play. And who knows how that might turn out.

Thing is, balance is such a hit-and-miss thing anyway (since the Brawl we play 3 years from now will be a very different thing than the Brawl we play in coming months), that I'm not that worried about it.

 

[SmashChu]

With all this talk about balance, I'm reminded of the problem the huge divide in how casual and competitive players judge overpoweredness.

For example, the PAL changes. Some seemed to be made with competitive Melee in mind, such as Marth's dair becoming a meteor, Sheik's dthrow losing it's combo potential, Fox getting lighter, etc. Of course, these changes could be attributed to casual play too, and it's likely that's where they come from.

What seems to definitely not come from competitive play is Ganondorf's fair being weakened (which I hadn't heard of until recently, actually), Yoshi's dair being weakened, Bowser's flame cancelling being removed while Falco's laser cancelling was not, etc. These were characters that did not needed to be weakened in the competitive scene; they, if anything, needed some buffing.

But for casual players, some of these things might be considered overpowered. The range and strength of Ganondorf's fair can be pretty annoying to a competitive player, let alone a scrub who doesn't know how to deal with it being spammed. I guess the same goes for Yoshi's dair? I don't know, it's been forever since I was a total scrub.

Anyway, the point is, I fear Brawl's balancing may be headed the same direction; the developers may focus on balance, but so far it seems like they focus on it in casual play. And who knows how that might turn out.

Thing is, balance is such a hit-and-miss thing anyway (since the Brawl we play 3 years from now will be a very different thing than the Brawl we play in coming months), that I'm not that worried about it.

I always have found Melee to be pretty well balanced. Even in competative play, the tiers have less priority then actual skill, and playing style.

But, I think the tournament sence will always mess stuff up. It's sually though techniques. If you take out L-cancelling and wavedashing then balance will become a bit more previlent. But your also playing 1v1s. A little ironic. ASll the balance is in FFAs. That is how the game is inteded. While you can play 1v1s, FFAs are the big draw of Smash Brothers.

Of course, this isn't to say the top teird will get nerfed and the bottem get buffed(MEWTWO NEEDS BETTER SPECIALS). The PAL version definatly did that. But, of course, the techniques and how competative smashers play it will always make balance and issue.

I think Brawl will be balanced when we first play it. But as time goes on people will butcher it and the teirs will rise again.

 

[Venom_7]

wavedashing. its not as though i can't do it, its just.... not the way it was meant to be played, pichu was a fault. mewtwo was two weak. marth has two good of recovery, same with shiek. and shiek is way too fast.

 

[Baelen]

i dont think wd, etc was a problem as much as its exploitation. Balance definitely could have used work as has been said so many times. I wonder if Sakurai wavedashes and abuses the "top tier".

 

[nayon]

I really disliked the menu graphical style, the music and the general style of the game... not the gameplay though

 

[Kurizu208]

stages alot of stages sucked like the zelda one with the happy turtle the mario boat crap thing. as well as choice of past stages the kirby past stage should have been replaced with saffron city or the happy tornado zelda stage thingy. to me the best stages were flat zone and icicle mountain. cause they felt more like you were fighting in the characters stage cuase of the elements from their games more than other stages. the mushroom kingdom stage 1 and 2 were ggood but they were just better versions of past stages. id' like to see more stages like flat zone, icicle mountain, and Mk 1&2. bridge of eldin is looking promising cuase of the epic feel to it. were the melee and sbb zelda stages were fun but platform locations and stuff didn't really work well. <- entry is all imo and bad grammar cause spell check takes 5 more secs then nessceary.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I feel like L-cancelling adds artificial difficulty. It's not hard once you have it down, of course, but the technique adds a barrier I feel may be unnecessary.

ewww go play soul calibur.

Just space animals. Basically in brawl I want more then top 2/5 characters able to win tournaments.

many exceptions to what you're saying. And its the player that wins the tourney, not fox. His fox.

wavedashing. its not as though i can't do it, its just.... not the way it was meant to be played

You're wrong.

 

[KernelColonel]

My one problem with Melee?

My GCN controllers got f---ed from over play =.='

wavedashing. its not as though i can't do it, its just.... not the way it was meant to be played

You're wrong.

No, seriously, Wavedashing was a glitch discovered in debug mode, but left in for coolness. It, quite literally, is not the way it was meant to be played.

 

[MechanizedDeviousFox]

I really disliked the menu graphical style, the music and the general style of the game... not the gameplay though

I didn't mind it, though looking back it is kind of.. well, different, though so much better then the original SSB's menu. That was bland and ew.

 

[Fawriel]

Well, wavedashing is indeed not the way it was meant to be played.
I hope they fix it in Brawl so it makes matches with Luigi endurable.
"Ya ya ya ya ya ya hoo ya ya hoo"

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Well, wavedashing is indeed not the way it was meant to be played.
I hope they fix it in Brawl so it makes matches with Luigi endurable.
"Ya ya ya ya ya ya hoo ya ya hoo"

LOL you hate that so much you've said it before.

Legit reason. wont hassle ya

 

[Red Exodus]

Online and not enough characters. Exploding containers are also *****es. Everything else was fine.

And not enough special modes.

 

[GenG]

Many important characters were left out (Wario, Pit, Dedede and Metaknight for example).
Many hazardous stages and almost no neutral stages with interesting platforms setups.
Unbalanced characters.
Clone characters.
Lack of a more solid single player game (other than replaying adventure or classic many many times to unlock all characters).
Annoying unlock requisites (finishing Adventure stage 1 in XX:X2? playing 20 hours in multiplayer?).

 

[SmashChu]

Yes, Red Exodus is right. You should be able to turn off capsals, creates and Barrels. If that was the case, would they allow then in tournamants?

 

[Speedsk8er]

Well, wavedashing is indeed not the way it was meant to be played.
I hope they fix it in Brawl so it makes matches with Luigi endurable.
"Ya ya ya ya ya ya hoo ya ya hoo"

so you'd rather hear Luigi than the Ice CLimbers?

BOING BOING BOING BOING. :D

And while I do believe that Wavedashing wasn't intended to be used in the way that we use it, it definitely helps balance the roster. For example, spacing with Marth would be next to impossible, thus probably making him drop on the tier list. I remember back when I didn't wave-dash. I frequently used roy as opposed to Marth because spacing a tipper was stupidly hard. It's much easier to get in someone's face

The Ice climbers get that mobility that they NEED for they're grab game. They can't really shuffle approach anyone because their air game is weak-sauce. They'd go down without WD.

Luigi gets that mobility that he definitely needs. Hell, he's already low tier with wave-dash, without it, he'd be even lower.

Mewtwo get's an approach and added mobility.

The thing is, the top-tiers(aside from Marth) don't really need Wave-dashing that much. I'm sure you guys will probably mention Fox and his Wave-shine but, REALLY, how often do you see that happen in a match? This isn't Shined Blind, people. Wave-shines are more of an opportunistic way to gimp someone. Effective? Yes. Always practical? Nah. Sheik? She doesn't really need it anyways. PEach? float-canceling. Not to mention, worst wave-dash in the game, I think? She's still High-tier. If she were to have a Luigi-like wave-dash, she'd be sliding everywhere, downsmashing everything in sight. LOL

Anyway, biggest fault? Online but that was just because of the time it was released.

 

[Doggalina]

No, seriously, Wavedashing was a glitch discovered in debug mode, but left in for coolness. It, quite literally, is not the way it was meant to be played.

Wavedashing was not a glitch. It was programed in there; they programed the game so that if you air dodge at an angle into the ground, you slide instead of stop. The creators, however, didn't see it being used the way we use it now.

The biggest fault, besides not enough characters, was lack of C-Stick in 1p mode.

Clones aren't bad. Just look at Ganondorf; they had an original moveset in mind, but they ran out of time. So, instead of keeping Ganondorf out of the game, they made him a heavier, slower Falcon with some of his moves changed.

My one problem with Melee?

My GCN controllers got f---ed from over play =.='

Same here. My old main controller's stick now constantly goes up.

 

[_Phloat_]

Yes, Red Exodus is right. You should be able to turn off capsals, creates and Barrels. If that was the case, would they allow then in tournamants?

No. In the long run I can gurantee that items will be turned off. Which is sad because I am "good" with them (Can interpret them into my combos well) But I agree that if my opponent could do the same, it would be no fair if he (or I) got the item out of thin air..

I there were set spots for the items to appear, or they had a little countdown at the area it would appear at, all would be fair, but, they didn't in either game, and they probably won't here


They did have a tournament with items!

 

[fluffy]

no c-stick in 1 player modes

 

[Wiseguy]

What do you think was Super Smash Bros. Melee's biggest fault?

I'm not pointing fingers.

 

[DizzyDuckMan]

Not so. It;'s no fun playing as a ccharacter wwho is just like another. More original characters give more fun, and more playability. Besides Falco and Fox, I don't play the clones.

I think that Link and Young Link are different enough to keep. (And I think that the one MAIN thing wrong with the game was the unbalanced characters. For example, I think Falco is a broken character. He's stronger then Bowser, and ALMOST as heavy as Bowser. Even though Bowser's not the heaviest, or strongest, Falco shouldn't be close to Bowser in all that.

 

[Xanderous]

I think that Link and Young Link are different enough to keep. (And I think that the one MAIN thing wrong with the game was the unbalanced characters. For example, I think Falco is a broken character. He's stronger then Bowser, and ALMOST as heavy as Bowser. Even though Bowser's not the heaviest, or strongest, Falco shouldn't be close to Bowser in all that.

Link and Young Link are the most similar clones in the game...

except for Doc.

 

[SmashChu]

No. In the long run I can gurantee that items will be turned off. Which is sad because I am "good" with them (Can interpret them into my combos well) But I agree that if my opponent could do the same, it would be no fair if he (or I) got the item out of thin air..

I there were set spots for the items to appear, or they had a little countdown at the area it would appear at, all would be fair, but, they didn't in either game, and they probably won't here


They did have a tournament with items!

Well, you can always catch items. Of course, with most(not all) their is a skill factor. Using a battering item for instance. Throwing items too as the opponent could catch it(wouldn't that be a cool thing to see). If you could steal it, the I think we'd have to agree that items(some) would be OK.

Also, I knoww tournaments have had items before.

 

[Shapechanger]

My problem is balance. Yes, skill is the most important trait in a match, but it's impossible to deny that some characters have very powerful moves whereas other have very weak ones. Peach's Downsmash, Marth's Tipper, Shines, etc. versus things like Confusion, Zelda's Projectile, Gannon's Up A, etc.

I've picked Mewtwo in tournaments and have had my opponent chuckle and ask me "You're serious?" ....No character should be underpowered like that.

 

[Darkfur]

What makes it REALLY funny though is that way back before Melee came out people were arguing that Mewtwo would not be in brawl/would not be a good addition because he's so powerful and he'd be an unbeatable character. Not sure if anyone else remembers this but I frankly got tired of hearing it.

Mewtwo being low teir is one of the best things about Brawl IMO. *laugh*

 

[_Phloat_]

so you'd rather hear Luigi than the Ice CLimbers?

BOING BOING BOING BOING. :D

And while I do believe that Wavedashing wasn't intended to be used in the way that we use it, it definitely helps balance the roster. For example, spacing with Marth would be next to impossible, thus probably making him drop on the tier list. I remember back when I didn't wave-dash. I frequently used roy as opposed to Marth because spacing a tipper was stupidly hard. It's much easier to get in someone's face

The Ice climbers get that mobility that they NEED for they're grab game. They can't really shuffle approach anyone because their air game is weak-sauce. They'd go down without WD.

Luigi gets that mobility that he definitely needs. Hell, he's already low tier with wave-dash, without it, he'd be even lower.

Mewtwo get's an approach and added mobility.

The thing is, the top-tiers(aside from Marth) don't really need Wave-dashing that much. I'm sure you guys will probably mention Fox and his Wave-shine but, REALLY, how often do you see that happen in a match? This isn't Shined Blind, people. Wave-shines are more of an opportunistic way to gimp someone. Effective? Yes. Always practical? Nah. Sheik? She doesn't really need it anyways. PEach? float-canceling. Not to mention, worst wave-dash in the game, I think? She's still High-tier. If she were to have a Luigi-like wave-dash, she'd be sliding everywhere, downsmashing everything in sight. LOL

Anyway, biggest fault? Online but that was just because of the time it was released.

Just something to add, my shiek NEEDS the wave dash!

Anyways, great post, see you put some thought into that unlike others -_-

Well, the biggest flaw was the fact that the meta game was somewhat unknown, while in halo people can talk and know how godly ogre1 and 2 are..

This online should have its legends, it would make everything a lot better, and more people would inter the communinty, and that is what keeps it alive!

 

[Fawriel]

Link and Young Link are the most similar clones in the game...

except for Doc.

Link is a sword-fighter with a few projectiles.

Young Link is a projectile fighter with a sword.


Trust me, there's QUITE a difference.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

My biggest complaint is two fold. A flawed physics engine and the game's love affair with Fox/Sheik. I won't go into the second one because, as I've said many times before is coming from a biased point of view, so I'll just cover the second one.

I can't count how many times my friends and I have done X and instead X was completely ignored and Y happend. Shields fail to work, swords seem to have varible lengths ect. If they can fix the flaws with that, I'll be a happy camper.


CHARACTER CLONES FTW!!!!!11!1!shift1!!

 

[MookieRah]

To all the people complaining about L-canceling and wavedashing:
Please stop talking like you know something about the tournament scene.

Why L-canceling should require timing: If it didn't require timing it would make the game a little bit easier to play, but at the same time it would take a little bit of skill out of the game. The more we take out of that magic pot of skill the less deep the game becomes. Everyone misses l-cancels, but the better you are at it, the less prevalent they become. I love abusing other peoples mistakes, and that is a HUGE part of this game. Taking that away from smash would only dull it.

Besides, when it comes to balance, EVERY character benefitted from l-canceling equally. It sped everyone up. If they had huge lag before l-canceling, they still had more lag than everyone else on it after l-canceling. It only served to speed up the game.

Why wavedashing is good: It is a great option for maneuverability. It didn't really detract from balance because a lot of the lower tiers actually have pretty darn good wavedashes. Hell, Fox and Falco's wavedashes aren't that great in comparison, it's their shine that made it so good, which would still be abused without wavedashing (to a lesser extent). I for one think there should be as many options to maneuver your character as possible. Yes, wavedashing has a somewhat steep learning curve, but it isn't so hard that it requires months of practice or anything.

To sum it all up, don't whine about something that is hard when it adds so much to the game. Just learn it and stop complaining, and for god sakes, don't spread bull**** like "these things made the game unbalanced" when you are pulling it out of your ***. Next you'll be telling me that the death penalty deters crime.

I can't count how many times my friends and I have done X and instead X was completely ignored and Y happend. Shields fail to work, swords seem to have varible lengths ect. If they can fix the flaws with that, I'll be a happy camper.

You made a mistake, YOU messed it up, not the game engine. How do I know this??? Because there are PLENTY of skilled people who don't mess it up :-P.

 

[Eaode]

Next you'll be telling me that the death penalty deters crime.

Bu-But I dun wanna die!!

 

[Mckillyou]

I think every level in Adventure Mode should be like the first. Platformer followed up by a boss, each with their own changes to keep things from getting boring.