What changes do YOU want for ness?

[thesage]

Or just add a little psi sparkle to the end of his foot to increase the range and call it a day lol.

 

[The_NZA]

Or just add a little psi sparkle to the end of his foot to increase the range and call it a day lol.

I'm just curious what everyone thinks a longer ranged ftilt would add to Ness's game. What situations in neutral that he struggles with would a ftilt add? I mean, isn't usmash yoyo already a relatively fast disjoint in front of him. How does ftilt accomplish anything different in his kit (besides a ftilt setting up a edgeguard situation) that his usmash or bat doesn't already fulfill?

I'm not saying it wouldn't make the move better. But how does this ftilt actually help Ness with what he struggles against?

 

[mimgrim]

I was looking more at increasing the range and speed, faster and more range then Usmash comes out but weaker in power of course. More or less. But my idea involves revamping the Ftilt into a 3rd yo-yo attack, which I don't even know is possible. I also thought about giving it a little gimmick of that by holding the attack button while the yo-yo is out will cause it to stay out and keep doing damage, making it another shield eating move as well.

But I'n not sure if that is just too much and over the top or w/e. A more knowledgeable Ness main could tell me that.

I just like thinking of ideas for characters to get. :L

 

[Kokomaniac]

Didn't read the thread, but I say (not in order of importance):
1. pkt doesn't clank with projectiles. Seriously, my friends shoot arrows while i recover and just eat my pkt, I want edgeguarding to have some sort of skill lol
2. faster dash speed. Better tech chase and combo continuation as well as more fluid gameplay. Vital imo
3. slightly more range or disjoint on fair. As a character that I think has some problems approaching and staying alive in the neutral game (pkf helps a lot now admittedly) a larger range fair might be nice)
4. more range/disjoint on tilts. Seriously, I feel like even from brawl i still have no options on the ground.
[EDIT] 5. PSI Magnet is amazing I think and so useful, I use it all the time just to tack on some damage in combos, extend and end some combos, and just control my movement and be unpredictable. It could really use doing some more damage, but since it's so easy to instantly jump cancel it into an aerial, it should probably just do like 6% unlike 8 like many people propose. Not vital, but I really enjoy magnet being used as a shine (like offstage and in combos)

That's all I can really think of right now. Any combination of these would be really helpful to his gameplay, especially 2 and 4, I believe. Having some ground options to extend or finish combos more efficiently (a better utilt would seriously be sooooooo nice) would put Ness in a great spot. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, my Ness experience isn't too broad and although I've been playing smash for a while now I have no PM tourney experience and really am just working on tech skill until the day I can attend a tourney

 

[G13_Flux]

@ mimgrim I think that actually would be a great idea. i feel like they could definitely do that. like think of the way they designed warios ftilt, just with a hitbox while charging. it doesnt have to be anything too crazy, maybe just a couple of hits adding to like 8 or 9%, but with a decent amount of range, and average speed. it could look relatively similar to his up smash as well for tricksies. the hit doesnt have to be anything too drastic, maybe setting up for tech chases on FFers like roys ftilt does, and mostly just hitting them away for spacing purposes. the idea for a better designed ftilt imo that isnt anything OP is something with some range and a bit of disjoint to make ness slightly less reliant on pk fire for spacing. to compensate, i can easily see a slight damage nerf to pk fire, if thats even needed, which it might not even be.

@ The_NZA like i said, i think doing something like mentioned above would make him not as reliant on PK fire, and give him more than two option in neutral. ATM ness' neutral game consists of fair and pk fire.. nothing else. upsmash is useful on shields as a mix up, but i typically find that useful only when the opponent is under some kind of pressure already and puts the shield up as a panic option. in neutral, its a little easy to beat upsmash since its so punishable, and ness' kind of average speed doest make it easy for him to always get close enough. a simple DD can shut that down pretty well. If you give ness an ftilt looking similar to the upsmash however, now you make the opponent have to stay on their toes a bit more. i think a damage or duration compensation to pk fire could be absolutely acceptable if this was put in effect, because it opens up his options more.

 

[Giygacoal]

I often see Ftilt get mentioned as needing to be made better/reworked.

What if it became a 3rd yo-yo attack? If possible anyway. The idea I have is that you can angle it and he slings out the yo-yo fast and pulls it beck in fast with more range then his current Ftilt. Maybe it could even be to where if the attack button is out he will hold the yo-yo in place making it another shield eater as well.

Too much?

A new yo-yo move? Yes please!

Also sup guys. I'm experimenting with several characters to find my secondary to handle Lucario's bad MUs, and I'm a Ness fan, so here I am.

 

[SpaceJello]

i once saw somewhere on here that someone said it would be a good idea for aerial pk fire to ignite on ground. i laughed so hard i cried. but i am not opposed

 

[thesage]

Can Ness have a move where he just stares at you and your head blows up plz.

Make it his final smash.

 

[kaizo13]

I'm just curious what everyone thinks a longer ranged ftilt would add to Ness's game. What situations in neutral that he struggles with would a ftilt add? I mean, isn't usmash yoyo already a relatively fast disjoint in front of him. How does ftilt accomplish anything different in his kit (besides a ftilt setting up a edgeguard situation) that his usmash or bat doesn't already fulfill?

I'm not saying it wouldn't make the move better. But how does this ftilt actually help Ness with what he struggles against?

i see your point, it really would just help set up edgeguards....but that's a welcomed change in my book (and the range increase of my liking would be minuscule)

but anyways, i think the most important change for Ness would be taking the focus off his PK fire and carrying it over to his Magnet.
-faster start-up (Lucas speed)
-more damage 6-7%

as for the PK fire, as long as it doesn't activate on shield, i'll be ok with

 

[The_NZA]

i see your point, it really would just help set up edgeguards....but that's a welcomed change in my book (and the range increase of my liking would be minuscule)

but anyways, i think the most important change for Ness would be taking the focus off his PK fire and carrying it over to his Magnet.
-faster start-up (Lucas speed)
-more damage 6-7%

as for the PK fire, as long as it doesn't activate on shield, i'll be ok with

I think ness already has pretty strong edge guarding options. I agree with you that the solution lies in mobility.

 

[SpaceJello]

how do you guys feel about dash speed increase? his biggest problem imo

 

[thesage]

More range on his f-tilt and grab (or dashgrab) + increased mobility could give ness a really cool mixup game when combined with his dash attack. All 3 of those you can use from around the same distance and can set up for different things. Grab (d-throw and u-throw) and dash attack can set up combos, f-tilt and grab (f-throw and b-throw) can set up edgeguards. Combining this with djc is helpful too, but risking your double jump as an approach can be risky. That way pk fire doesn't have to be so overcentralizing to his game. Ness either needs a speed boost or an increase in range to his moves.

Also removal of the sex kick properties of dair would be nice. It's quite frustrating when dair -> uair doesn't combo when I'm trying to kill a jigglypuff lul. And put back in the psi magnet absorb lag cancel (no idea why this was removed).

Does anybody else find it harder to mofo combo in pm? I just use d-throw to combo spacies. It's significantly easier.

 

[SpaceJello]

d throw tom combo spacies? ive tried this alot but reading the tech was quite difficult for me, even when i down-b to wait for the tech. against spacies i just u-throw to whatever. sometimes bair, sometimes regrab. the djc u air is also good but i know what you mean how it can be hard to do, especially if they got that good di. but i def think u throw against spacies is better than d throw

 

[Problem2]

A character with an unblockable projectile doesn't need to be faster than his opponents. He already gives hell to characters who are slower than him.

 

[thesage]

I would also like pk fire to be nerfed. The current iteration of Ness should just be called pk fire lol.

 

[SSS]

I would also like pk fire to be nerfed. The current iteration of Ness should just be called pk fire lol.

plz lern sdi

 

[thesage]

plz lern sdi

But that makes the character useless =(

Pretty sure cc'ing the initial hit and rolling away is another option.

 

[choknater]

after all this time

i still think ness is fine as he is and doesn't need any changes

there's just some weak characters (olimar) that need to be buffed lol

 

[Oracle]

Man all the ppl in this thread are a bunch of whiny babies. If you pick this char and lose to not spacies/pit then you ****ing suck, end of story. It would be wiser for yall to actually get better than to complain about ness being bad

 

[Bryonato]

damn oracle i love you but you're one to call ppl a bunch of whiny babies JUST SAYIN

IM OUT PCE

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Lunchables told me that Oracle thought Tink countered his characters at one point obviously Oracle is the king of whining and overreacting

DIIIIIIIIIIIP

 

[Oracle]

lol lunchables blowing it out of proportion. I said i thought tink beat lucas, not countered. tink does basically counter zard tho but more importantly the diference is that Im actually a good player so when I complain im usually right about something being not good enough or broken or w/e. you morons haven't done **** and still complain soooooo......

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Well, like the 5 recent posts before your's had no complaining so clearly that's not even a thing anymore, and being a good player doesn't mean act like a **** all the time, sooooooooooo

 

[Oracle]

Somebody asked for more range on dashgrab this thread is full of ppl asking to buff an already insanely good character. This thread is full of whiners who cant win bc they suck. Also the only reason I play smash is so I can be good enough to call everyone bad its awesome

 

[Bryonato]

after all this time

i still think ness is fine as he is and doesn't need any changes

i gotta say i'm firmly of this opinion now, too. after i got back from apex and started applying a lot of things i learned there and in general just becoming a better player i really changed my mind on what he had to offer and what I could be doing differently with him.

like, if you watch my apex vids vs my vids now there's close to 0 comparison.

also, despite oracle whining and trolling and just in general being a **** to people (which is your thing you do i get it), he really hit the nail on the head with how I feel about ness with a post he made in the tier list spec. thread. don't know if anyone saw it but tldr it put Ness in a "captain falcon tier" where he has a lot of really strong tools to compete but loses fairly hard to a few top tiers and most sword characters.

 

[choknater]

yea legit opinion

i mainly have trouble with swords and mewtwo's tail. but not that much trouble bc people mess up and ness' punishment game is just godlike. and still having trouble figuring out how to beat squirtle, he's so weird

 

[Deleted member]

lol lunchables blowing it out of proportion. I said i thought tink beat lucas, not countered. tink does basically counter zard tho but more importantly the diference is that Im actually a good player so when I complain im usually right about something being not good enough or broken or w/e. you morons haven't done **** and still complain soooooo......

When you and I played, the instant our set ended, you told me "Yeah, Toonlink kind of auto counters all of my characters."
I asked you, "Are you being serious or joking around?"
"I'm being 100% serious"

and then for the rest of the night at chili's you johned about toonlink vs lucas. I'm sorry I blew it out of proportion, maybe I did because you also did?

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Welp, bodied.

Shoutouts to based @Lunchables

 

[mimgrim]

Can you feel it?

I know I can.

 

[RODO]

I just feel like his up b recovery needs more priority. It's kind of ridiculous that basically any move in the game can knock you out of your recovery and gimp you pretty easily. It basically requires you to have 100% accuracy in sweetspotting the ledge every time which is pretty hard to accomplish and makes even DK's recovery seem godlike in comparison. They can nerf pk fire or whatever just let him recover a bit better pls and thanks.

 

[Zero May Cry]

I disagree with RODO; Ness' up-b is quite high priority already and doesn't really need any more.

There's probably just one or two changes I would ask for on Ness. First, make magnet come out faster. Maybe like 3-4 frames. It's useless for absorbing projectiles since it's so slow. Also, absorb lag should be jump cancellable, or cancellable in some way. The fact that I can predict say a Mewtwo's fully charged shadow ball and absorb it, but get punished for making that prediction, just seems fundamentally wrong and counterintuitive. Like, you can absorb a shadow ball and then Mewtwo can just teleport over to you and fair while you're stuck in absorb lag.

I think that's all that really needs to be fixed. Magnet needs buffs.

 

[SpaceJello]

oracle coming in here and saying ness is insanely good and doesnt need any buffs is lols. ness definitely needs buffs and you would know that if you played him at a high level. his recovery is very easily gimped and small hitboxes( ex: nair, f-tilts) make all his moves extremely committal. when you play ness and beat top level players TTHEN you can tell me that ness is good.

 

[Deleted member]

oracle coming in here and saying ness is insanely good and doesnt need any buffs is lols. ness definitely needs buffs and you would know that if you played him at a high level. his recovery is very easily gimped and small hitboxes( ex: nair, f-tilts) make all his moves extremely committal. when you play ness and beat top level players TTHEN you can tell me that ness is good.

Ness's recovery has nearly no landing lag, the pkt2 hitbox pretty much beats out every other hitbox, it can go in any direction making it pretty flexible, it reaches an insane distance...

Oh and also ness doesn't have to commit to much, he has a projectile that is LITERALLY shield pressure. Floating shield pressure that either controls part of the stage if it hits any projectile, destroys your shield, or if he hits you he gets a free grab and uses his sheik D throw

ness players, stop complaining. Watch awestin and then get good.

 

[SpaceJello]

pkt2 does not beat out every hotboxes, actually most characters bair can stop it.pkt1 is very Very easy to gimp, literally just jump into it or throw a projectile and he literally dies. pk fire is good but its not impossible to get out of/ punish even while being caught in it. ive been in many scenarios where i will catch my opponent in pk fire then immediately get u-air while there still in it or even shined by spacies while the fire is STILL PILLARING. ness' moveset requires him to commit alot when he wants to go in, and you saying that it doesn't just proves that you don't play ness and don't really know what you're talking about. also please stop using awestin as a reference for "getting better". yes, we can all agree awestin is good and places in youre region but ive yet to see him place at any international event. when i see awestin beat people like wizzrobe/nick riddle/ porkchops, people who actually are insanely good at the ness mu then i will " stop complaining" and " get good"

 

[Deleted member]

Not even going to argue with you about this. Worthless.

 

[SpaceJello]

good, you're argument doesnt seem plausible anyway

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah I just suck don't listen to me

 

[Akhenderson]

pkt1 may be simple to gimp, but that requires the opponent to commit into taking a huge risk of getting hit with the start up of pkt2 which si difficult depending on where they are in relation to Ness. Characters who use projectiles to cancel out the pkt1 before it hits Ness such as Shiek or Pit have the luxury of staying fairly far away and makes Ness nearly unable to recover from lower vantage points against these characters.

I do have a couple problems with pk fire, mainly with its unreliability to trap someone, even though the initial spark hits the opponent. There are those occasional times when the pillar activates, but because the hitbox never really reaches the opponent's because the pillar spawns a bit too high. I wouldn't mind losing the ability to proc on shield if it meant I could reliably trap someone when I actually hit with it.

PK Flash is something I want to get buffed. Its only main use is to edge guard with it, but Ness already has plenty of ways to edge guard and it moves fairly predictably and obviously that it's hard to hit with. I would love for the ability to get some sort of new utility that would make it useful for edge guarding and something else. In Earthbound, it caused a random status effect of paralysis, crying or instant death. It would be pretty neat to make it similar to ZSS's Down smash where by a small charge of PK Flash would put the enemy in a paralyzed state for a follow up.

Magnet buffs. Being able to jump cancel during the absorption would be nice.

I don't mind Ness's rather small range on all of his moves. It makes it unsafe for him to try and approach on certain characters (m2 shielding a fair is almost always a free grab by m2) but it makes up for it by having a really good punish and combo game.

 

[FreeGamer]

Is it heresy that I would suggest a faster PK Magnet along with more range for F-Tilt and U-Tilt? Also, cancelling absorption with rolling would be nice.

 

[SpaceJello]

more range on u-tilt / f-tilt would def be helpful. i cant count how many times ive been literally right next to someone, u-tilted and not hit them at all. if the hitbox was slightly above/ behind him, it would be more of a legit u-tilt like the rest of the characters instead of only directly above him. f-tilt is so small, its seems like always a huge risk to even do it. i feel that f-tilt is only useful if you KNOW for a fact that it will hit. and even then when youre that close to them, you probably have better options than f-tilt.

magnet i feel should either 1, do more damage because it literally only does 2-3% and is really only used for style,or2, have less lag when absorbing projectiles. magnet is actually faster to cancel after absorbing a projectile if you are in the air,but its still too slow to act out of it if the person is approaching you ( ex: falco lasers, zss stun) being able to cancel it faster would be a significant improvement and def help ness against characters that play campy