What changes do YOU want for ness?

[Stunts]

Why do y'all think Ness needs any more buffs?

You dont want another 2.5, do you?

 

[Bryonato]

Why do y'all think Ness needs any more buffs?

You dont want another 2.5, do you?

go back and read this thread. that should tell you "why"

 

[Wiisnake]

Why do y'all think Ness needs any more buffs?

You dont want another 2.5, do you?

…. Wow… you mean like the revolutionary buff of being able to have more mobility options out of the magnet and not much else? because clearly, 2.5 Ness wasn't broken, if he was then why was it Ike and Sonic dominating?

 

[Red(SP)]

Why do y'all think Ness needs any more buffs?

You dont want another 2.5, do you?

Please attempt to read the thread before making a general assumption out there that it's just simply that.
Thank you.

 

[Bryonato]

LOL the Ness salt


let's simmer down guys

 

[Wiisnake]

LOL the Ness salt


let's simmer down guys

#Nessmasterrace

 

[Nausicaa]

sorry but the whole "LAWL CANT U TELL I WAS LE TROLLING? XDDDDDDDDD" excuse is really lame.

Someone went off-topic because of my on-topic post.
It wasn't an excuse to anything, it was a means of helping someone understand the point of it. The post is accurate.

Too much work to do? You're kidding, right? Player feedback is probably one of the more valued things in any community. You'd have to be seriously high to think otherwise.
Oh, and we were addressing his issues as a character nonetheless. I can't even think of one MU personally where he has the advantage in, unless it's like Ganon/Luigi which is basically like saying "Oh hey, I can beat characters that are arguably worse than mine yay". I thought the goal here was to advertise proper balance in all areas reachable. Mario vs Sonic in 2.1 was like a 90:10 in Mario's favor lmao. So what do they do? They addressed Sonic's weaknesses and concerns and worked to bring us to 2.5 which inevitably got him the nerf hammer. That's kind of how this works. This process we go through, despite our position in the community as players of these characters is to address what's liked and disliked about our character. That can potentially bring out massive bias, but that's part of how it works. It's like writing a feature for the newspaper; you INSERT yourself into the discussion and make it personal.

1) Why do you think anyone thought otherwise?
2) No advantageous match-ups?
3) I totally wouldn't have though Ganon and Luigi would be the first characters mentioned as those who Ness 'has' an advantage over. lol
2.1 Sonic was amazing. He was changed due to being polarizing (just like 2.5 was changed after)

 

[Wiisnake]

Someone went off-topic because of my on-topic post.
It wasn't an excuse to anything, it was a means of helping someone understand the point of it. The post is accurate.



1) Why do you think anyone thought otherwise?
2) No advantageous match-ups?
3) I totally wouldn't have though Ganon and Luigi would be the first characters mentioned as those who Ness 'has' an advantage over. lol
2.1 Sonic was amazing. He was changed due to being polarizing (just like 2.5 was changed after)

Have you even played, and/or worked on Ness enough to know how the character works and what his weakness's are? Because it seems to me you're speaking volumes but you aren't saying anything worth saying.

 

[Bryonato]

guys... ness salt... simmer down...

At the same time Nausicaa you are coming off a little condescending without saying a lot worth merit so maybe you can expand on why you don't feel Ness needs changes?

 

[Nausicaa]

At the same time Nausicaa you are coming off a little condescending without saying a lot worth merit so maybe you can expand on why you don't feel Ness needs changes?

I seriously have no idea how this happens, and nobody ever explains what's condescending in my posts. Would you mind trying to elaborate on it? I don't think I've ever posted anything condescending in my life, but it constantly comes across that way to others. lol

Why he needs changes is what confuses me. I don't see how he's bad enough in the game that he can't compete in the middle of the pack. There are worse characters that need attention, and characters that have more flushed out mainstream meta-games that Ness is competing with and will likely surpass if not at least stalemate with.

Why does he need/not need changes? < 100% pointless discussion.
What can he do to compete in this game? < worth something, and more direct towards answering question one in all practical ways.
Answer I gave to Q2? < Diversify and refortify play-style mid-match, recondition and re-adapt. AKA, apply to Ness what makes the difference between good and great smash players, the general improvement of awareness in the game. There's really not much to it. Keep getting better at Ness AS HE IS, discuss how Ness can be optimized AS HE IS, and that will be more valuable towards improving the characters through 'patch-updates' than discussing the actual 'possible changes' EVER will be.
Basic logic in more depth.^ That's all that ever needs to be said in these threads.
So, just like all the others. What does Ness need to do to compete at a top level? What's the future of his meta-game? What CAN be done, NOW?
Anything else is pointless, 100%.

 

[Wiisnake]

I seriously have no idea how this happens, and nobody ever explains what's condescending in my posts. Would you mind trying to elaborate on it? I don't think I've ever posted anything condescending in my life, but it constantly comes across that way to others. lol

Why he needs changes is what confuses me. I don't see how he's bad enough in the game that he can't compete in the middle of the pack. There are worse characters that need attention, and characters that have more flushed out mainstream meta-games that Ness is competing with and will likely surpass if not at least stalemate with.

Why does he need/not need changes? < 100% pointless discussion.
What can he do to compete in this game? < worth something, and more direct towards answering question one in all practical ways.
Answer I gave to Q2? < Diversify and refortify play-style mid-match, recondition and re-adapt. AKA, apply to Ness what makes the difference between good and great smash players, the general improvement of awareness in the game. There's really not much to it. Keep getting better at Ness AS HE IS, discuss how Ness can be optimized AS HE IS, and that will be more valuable towards improving the characters through 'patch-updates' than discussing the actual 'possible changes' EVER will be.
Basic logic in more depth.^ That's all that ever needs to be said in these threads.
So, just like all the others. What does Ness need to do to compete at a top level? What's the future of his meta-game? What CAN be done, NOW?
Anything else is pointless, 100%.

What can be done now…. well basically no Ness main wants to use what may be his best weapon too much.

 

[Red(SP)]

1) Why do you think anyone thought otherwise?
2) No advantageous match-ups?
3) I totally wouldn't have though Ganon and Luigi would be the first characters mentioned as those who Ness 'has' an advantage over. lol
2.1 Sonic was amazing. He was changed due to being polarizing (just like 2.5 was changed after)

1)

THERE IS TOO MUCH WORK TO DO BEFORE CONSIDERING THE CHARACTER NEEDS BUFFS.
That is all, and that is trufe.

THERE IS TOO MUCH WORK TO DO BEFORE CONSIDERING THE CHARACTER NEEDS BUFFS.

TOO MUCH WORK TO DO BEFORE CONSIDERING THE CHARACTER NEEDS BUFFS.

BEFORE CONSIDERING THE CHARACTER NEEDS BUFFS.

THE CHARACTER NEEDS BUFFS.

NEEDS BUFFS.

BUFFS.

You should consider reading your own posts before making blind/ignorant remarks lol.

2)

I'm actually starting to think you don't actually play this game if you're completely oblivious to this angle by now. There's actually a few characters in this game that have no 'real' advantageous match-ups and they're right in front of you.

3)

Totally brah. And 2.1 Sonic wasn't even close to "amazing" as you just described.
You take a paper and a pencil and you write a theory-craft moveset.
Thing is, it looked good on paper.
It didn't do so well in-game.
So they changed him up. Sonic wasn't really that amazing to begin with and you and I both know that lmao.

 

[Nausicaa]

Player feedback is probably one of the more valued things in any community. You'd have to be seriously high to think otherwise.
THERE IS TOO MUCH WORK TO DO BEFORE CONSIDERING THE CHARACTER NEEDS BUFFS.
1) Why do you think anyone thought otherwise?

You took that comment from the wrong content there.
Yes, there is work to do with this character. Player feedback isn't exclusive to 'buff this nerf this' discussion. lol

2) Like how Falcon has no advantages.
3) Peeps who think 2.1 Sonic was bad were silly.

I'm still going to advocate that we discuss how to make Ness work 'as he is' rather than discuss how to make him better/different through patch-updates.
No matter how much salt you have. lol
On-Topic (again, a topic that matters)
F-Throw near the edge is sexy.

 

[Nido]

Well, if we work to optimize Ness so he stays 'as he is' why not give him a faster second jump, a small range buff for his grab/attacks and maybe being able to jump cancel absorption in the air and on the ground?

These changes wouldn't radically alter the way Ness plays but still let him compete a little stronger with the other characters, it's not like we're demanding invincibility on our Fair or Dair or a frame 1 magnet.

 

[Bryonato]

I'm still going to advocate that we discuss how to make Ness work 'as he is' rather than discuss how to make him better/different through patch-updates.
No matter how much salt you have. lol
On-Topic (again, a topic that matters)
F-Throw near the edge is sexy.

to be fair we discuss how to make Ness work 'as he is' to great lengths on a daily basis in our Skype group. We're certainly not just sitting here being bad and wishing he was better. Just wanted to clarify

 

[Red(SP)]

Player feedback is probably one of the more valued things in any community. You'd have to be seriously high to think otherwise.
THERE IS TOO MUCH WORK TO DO BEFORE CONSIDERING THE CHARACTER NEEDS BUFFS.
1) Why do you think anyone thought otherwise?

You took that comment from the wrong content there.
Yes, there is work to do with this character. Player feedback isn't exclusive to 'buff this nerf this' discussion. lol

2) Like how Falcon has no advantages.
3) Peeps who think 2.1 Sonic was bad were silly.

I'm still going to advocate that we discuss how to make Ness work 'as he is' rather than discuss how to make him better/different through patch-updates.
No matter how much salt you have. lol
On-Topic (again, a topic that matters)
F-Throw near the edge is sexy.

1) No one clarified that it was. Use your brain. Anything implied from that should be relevant.
And taking part from that comment was relevant to the discussion itself, so don't try to squeeze your way out of there. I put you on blast for a reason.

2) He still has advantageous MUs. The fraudulence in this statement is strong.

3) He was bad lmao. I main a character that in 2.1 was considerably rounded for the worst five in the GAME, and I still thought Sonic was pretty bad.
If that doesn't say anything about the character, I dunno what the hell would.

You do realize that its evidently the same conversation we /were/ having in the thread already. You're using different wordplay to try regain a floor in the discussion. It's actually kind of pitiful to read, in my honest opinion.

Also, I commemorate how you absolutely provided nothing towards innovative discussion with baseless posts like "F-Throw near the edge is sexy". There's no followup on such a statement. I tip you my two cents.

 

[Nausicaa]

^You're still going on about this?
If you got my points, then good, if you just need to vent, that's fine too. Sounds like you're trying to argue for the sake of arguing, but don't have a point to make. Thread-derailing pro much? lol

to be fair we discuss how to make Ness work 'as he is' to great lengths on a daily basis in our Skype group. We're certainly not just sitting here being bad and wishing he was better. Just wanted to clarify

For sure, if anything I kind of figured that's why saying 'let's figure this character out' posts would be so trendy. lol
There's a lot to be had from simply communicating in the form of watching each other. Of all the Ness videos out there, there's very little overlap in Ness play-style. So sexy that a game can have that dynamic.

 

[The_NZA]

Can someone translate Nausica's argument to me. Because I've read all of his posts, and all i've seemed to encounter is:
1. The metagame is so deep in this game that we should be pushing it rather than talking about buffs (implying a. we can't both push the metagame AND suggest improvements b. we can't partake in the global discussion happening in every character specific forum, using our knowledge of Ness's potential in the metagame to argue for fairer design directions
2. Something about ness players having different styles being significant or something
3. We're all salty/he's just trolling. But really...there's a point. But really....he's just trolling.

 

[SouthernGent]

Nausicaa,

from what I have read of your argument it seems that you are really pushing the point that Ness needs to be further explored as he is and we should be discussing ways to do that. I myself (and I imagine many others here as well) agree that we should be putting work into exploring him in his current state but this is a thread with a very specific topic within a section of this site that is almost completely dedicated to exploring what Ness currently has to offer.

TL;DR I don't understand what you see being so detrimental about this thread when the rest of the Ness character discussion page is about pushing his current iteration.

 

[Nausicaa]

I don't understand why my posts are such a big deal.
I find it interesting that there's very little cross-over in Ness-styles across the Ness players.
It's a good sign there's lots of room to grow.
That's all, there's nothing more to it. lol

 

[The_NZA]

I don't disagree with you there... It's just that you entered a topic clearly about addressing ness inefficiencies with condescension asking us to essentially stop whining and get better. That's what stirred the big deal with your posts but now that we know what you are about, it's all good brother. My advice movin forward would be to just say "I think ness players have a lot of different styles so u think ness has a lot of room for growth", as you did in your last post.

Also, the only style people like Cal aren't employing are pk fire heavy styles, which is largely agreed upon to be the most boring aspect but also most effective aspect of him.

 

[Red(SP)]

^You're still going on about this?
If you got my points, then good, if you just need to vent, that's fine too. Sounds like you're trying to argue for the sake of arguing, but don't have a point to make. Thread-derailing pro much? lol

You've actually been derailing the thread with your baseless remarks.

I would appreciate that you would take the conduct more professionally but you choose not to and it's personally irking me.

I don't disagree with you there... It's just that you entered a topic clearly about addressing ness inefficiencies with condescension asking us to essentially stop whining and get better. That's what stirred the big deal with your posts but now that we know what you are about, it's all good brother. My advice movin forward would be to just say "I think ness players have a lot of different styles so u think ness has a lot of room for growth", as you did in your last post.

Also, the only style people like Cal aren't employing are pk fire heavy styles, which is largely agreed upon to be the most boring aspect but also most effective aspect of him.

While that's his pro as a player (and I honestly respect all pros from the players), I feel like he's neglecting a lot of general spacing fundamentals.

He usually has this thing where his recovery game is goofy, but he's pretty good at improving that once he sits down with a character.

 

[emergencycake]

Some ideas I have/like:

1. psi attack added to uptilt (possibly others like dtilt, ftilt, nair) giving it a nice range boost.

2. PK Thunder emerging from Ness' side in a way that by holding down the Thunder is immediately directed to the bottom of Ness allowing for an immediate recovery at a 45ish degree angle, greatly boosting his recovery under pressure.

3. uair replaced by a psi wave/arm sweep (think R.O.B.s uair with more horizontal kb) above him; he loses a stronger kill move but gains another combo tool with much better range (imo much better with his moveset especially as it replaces a very limited vertical move with one that uses his horizontal movement).

anyway ideas...

If they change the uair i will be the saddest person in the world. the uair is perfect and wonderful as is.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

I think ness does fine for the most part, I think ness players have an issue over committing to stuff ya know? Like, we know we can **** **** up, but its our eagerness that gets us at an disadvantage if our approach doesn't work, and then we have to fight through and overcome Ness's shortcomings to gain control. Playing catch up is never easy though.
Just my two rupees, ness indeed is not the god I used to think he was when I was getting whomped by him, but at the same time he is. I think it all just depends on what commitments you make and when.

I was playing a guy yesterday who told me to use pkfire less. Yet the way I was using it was forcing him into bad situations and I gained super reward from it. He then told me "yeah but you could be doing so many other things" and in my head I'm like, you're already getting destroyed by one thing, everything else I do is now a mixup, therefore I never have to overcommit to anything because you've been conditioned to the same forced situation. I believe this is ness at his core. Pkfire isn't spammable, but damn it we should make it seem like it is. People are afraid to get hit by it, the second we see someone trying to get around it, ness should be right there with a mixup.

And I mean, this isn't gonna make it all better. He has a hard time with some people, but it sure makes things easier when the opponent has to adapt to us instead of the other way around.

Just my two rupees. Take it or leave it :3

 

[ELI-mination]

@Nausica
Damn son, I guess since I thought 2.1 Sonic was bad I was just silly. A person who played consistently with one of the best Sonic players at the time literally every week, roughly 3-4 times a week for hours at a time. As someone who knew practically everything about the matchup at a extremely high level with tons of different characters, I was just being silly.

Seriously, EVERY SINGLE POST YOU MAKE is just "hey guys, this character has undiscovered potential! Trust me, just explore it more!"
That's it.

Well, I'm sorry to break it to you, but not everything is manifestly perfect; a gem waiting to be discovered. Some things are indeed more beneficial to perhaps a closer introspection to determine whether or not they are deserving of alteration. Considering that Project M is widely played by a variety of regions across the country and has been for quite a while now (in some areas, like there are lots of more developed metagames in comparison to others), the variation among Ness' current metagame is itself a form of this introspection. Something -unless you play Ness/have videos of your Ness/have in-depth critiques about Ness that has stood up to discussion amongst other notable Ness players/done ANYTHING for any region to consider your viewpoint on the matter noteworthy- other than HEY I POST ON SMASHBOARDS SOMETIMES....will have to do. And the generic blanket statements of "take a look at all this potential you don't currently see" about every damn character DON'T HELP.

Ness is a pretty awesome and solid character, but there are some glaring flaws that he has that may be a tad challenging to specifically describe. And that is the purpose of discussions like this. Will it lead us to the conclusion of some clear Ness buffs? Maybe, maybe not. But the point is that saying things along the lines of "ya'll just haven't figured it out yet" is of no assistance at all in this endeavor.

Personally, I think Ness could use some more range on his f-tilt and u-tilt. Perhaps less knockback on his u-tilt so its more useful for combos and such. Idk, these are just suggestions off the top of my head based on my experience with Ness and my impressions that I get in attempting to determine the holes in his game that are significant enough to keep him down as a character. I might not be right, but its probably a lot more beneficial to have someone like me, an actual good Ness player and top P:M player who is capable of facilitating discussion, rather than your useless input. Good day, gentlemen.

 

[Nguz95]

As far as I know the Ness mains are the only group that tries really hard to pool all of their knowledge. They have a Skype group and several threads dedicated to him. Their metagame is actually developing really fast.

 

[DMG]

Ness changes I would consider (making moves Red so you can read this a bit easier hopefully):

Dtilt gets more range, more lag/can't mash it for multiple hitboxes. Flesh this out into a "real" tilt basically, instead of a slightly useful, pseudo Pikachu jab. I don't think many of us hate the move per se, but you could definitely change it to try and benefit his spacing more. Right now, it's closer to a troll-y up close foot masher lol.

I don't exactly know the hitboxes on Utilt, but I would possibly add or extend a hitbox in front of him near the ground, to catch people in front of him a bit better (without massively buffing how well it stops aerial approaches).

Ftilt could have a bit more range, or maybe a double hit property? You swing your leg forward, and shortly afterwards a PK sparkle shows up in that spot? You could either make both hits land on an opponent if they eat the first hit, or have the second hit dedicated to just maintaining control of that space afterwards for 2-3 frames when it pops out. Idk, I'd possibly like to see something besides extra range given to it, because Ness can be a pretty interesting and quirky character in his own right.

His Smashes all seem fine-ish.

His Recovery is basically perfect.

His Aerials all fit and I would be wary of buffing these any.


Fundamental Aspects like momentum/mobility:

I would only consider buffing ground mobility/options. A longer dash duration, a slightly faster dash, and last possibly giving him more momentum for jumping forward out of a dash (would stem from a faster dash/run speed). This would lead to a slightly better neutral game and approaching, without changing his aerials or changing his core air momentum.

 

[Nausicaa]

^In Melee, the U-Tilt beat almost everything with a disjoint, I think it's similar in PM. Anti-Air from directly above, and combos well.
D-Tilt I'm a fan of as it is. Free combos into nearly anything if it isn't CC'd at even mid-%. Things like throw/whatever > F-Air > D-Tilt is a nice pop into F-Smash tippers on mid-weights even.

F-Tilt, more range, I would love that. Spam that crap, but more spam would come if it were bigger.
Would also help directly with one of those niche 'areas' of his game that's a little unfilled.

If ""this character has undiscovered potential!"" is all someone is getting from my posts, then they need some reading-comprehension.
The fact that most Ness's have no cross-over in play-style and how they approach the character, and yet they're functioning well, shows that there's a lot of dynamics with him. That's all I said, that's true on its own, and it stands today still. There's a lot to get from that (even just 'exploring the potential in the sense that others are doing stuff you aren't' if you want to interpret it about 'undiscovered' BS)
Stop being upset over silly interpretations already. You're not noobs, but you're noobs are interpreting posts on the internet. lol

 

[DMG]

I think that's more related to arm/head invincibility. Melee had a lot of limbs go invincible for a few frames during moves, for some reason. Either way, I'd only want someting in front of him on the ground to help out a bit. He didn't have that in Melee and I don't think he has it in PM.

Your cause isn't helped, when you admitted to making a troll post to get people's attention. You could have accomplished the same exact thing, with better results, if you said "Hey guys I think Ness is fine. You can see plenty of videos, with people playing Ness differently with success, which is a great sign for the character. He's not getting very stale, if people are winning with different ideas and tactics. So imagine if someone combined all the great traits and playstyles into Ness. If you don't like Magnet tricks, try using them. PK Fire spam is boring, but might help you out. Try it out and you might think better of the character!" Instead, your post was... well, that.


Your posts have good intentions behind them (usually), but I don't fault the reactions people have to your posts because of the way you word them. This is what it looks like:

A Nausicca post, in the eyes of Nausicca:

"Smash is a beautiful and complex game. Even after a decade of competition, we are still scratching the tip of the iceberg of depth. All of us can realize and accomplish even more if we fundamentally change the way we perceive the game, and explore everything that we can no matter how silly or bad it looks on the surface. I want to help people, and I try to post and get people to expand their horizons and think outside the box, so that they improve as players and so that this amazing game advances even further.



A Nausicca post, in the eyes of everyone else:

"I can't believe how underdeveloped the metagame is for x character. I watch videos and I'm constantly underwhelmed by the level of play I see in these "so called" top players. SERIOUSLY, am I the only one who understands how to play Luigi? God. It's ok though, Smash and the people in it have a lot of room for improvement, and I specifically know the secrets to unlocking your potential! Just follow these 3 steps:

1. Accept me as your Lord and Saviour

2. Not sure about something? Ask me! Since you pathetic fools are busy mindlessly playing the game, I've been looking through my crystal ball of clarity and wisdom. It tells me exactly how far character's metagames can develop, and how far behind the masses are. At this rate, it may take people 7 years to finally figure out how to play Diddy, when they could have listened to me all along!

3. Everything you are currently doing, is probably wrong. Just accept that. Oh, you won a few tournaments and are considered a top PM player? Overhaul your thinking, it's not good enough. Lucas-In-The-Future-For-President-2016#HillaryClintonVP

P.S. God ordained me to lead you clueless sheep. My mission originally was to help people out by maybe presenting them ways to thing alternatively about Smash and dig deeper, but I decided that since I was awesome enough, I would also tell people "There's more to Smash than we all may realize, except me because I realized it first before you guys did and here's how BUY MY BOOK!"



I'm beyond serious btw. Your posts aren't offending when they suggest we can all improve and should critically reexamine ourselves constantly to see if we are on the "right" path. What makes them offending, is the personal touch added where we are a community totally off track, and you specifically hold the key to getting us to a better place. It happens a lot more than you probably think.

 

[Nausicaa]

Ah, makes sense.
Exactly. I think that's one of the reasons I feel Squirtle got so much... worse, but maybe more diverse in functionality, in 2.6. His F-Tilt disappeared and he needed it. Instead, he has a functional D-Tilt and a hit-box on U-Tilt that hits in front a bit, but it's not as raw as solid-F-Tilt coverage that smaller characters that like to jump around a lot, kind of 'need' to do what they do.

Ness doesn't have U-Tilt that hits in FRONT of him, his D-Tilt is niche, and his F-Tilt doesn't cover the niche-it's-trying-to seemingly cover. U-Smash covers it almost as well, in terms range and speed, but the trajectory and reliability of F-Tilt is so nice. Couldn't imagine playing someone like Mario, Lucas, or Pika without F-Tilt... Would be sadface
Sexy move is sexy still.

 

[Xebenkeck]

Ness is really good. I don't think he has any glaring weakness anymore. I don't feel as if their is anyone in the cast that just outright dominates him. IMO his hardest matchups are floaties like Zelda, Jigglypuff, and Marth(to an extent).

The only thing I would suggest to the PMBR is that his PSI Magnet STILL does not do what it is intended for. WHich is to prevent him from being camped by energy based projectiles.

Quite frankly the start-up is still too long to be of any practical use and shielding is almost always a better option at this point. All I ask is please make it function like a shine in that it appears frame 1, maintain it's jump cancelability, but get rid of that hitbox on it.(it doesn't need to be a shine, it suppose to be an absorber)

 

[The_NZA]

Ness is really good. I don't think he has any glaring weakness anymore. I don't feel as if their is anyone in the cast that just outright dominates him. IMO his hardest matchups are floaties like Zelda, Jigglypuff, and Marth(to an extent).

The only thing I would suggest to the PMBR is that his PSI Magnet STILL does not do what it is intended for. WHich is to prevent him from being camped by energy based projectiles.

Quite frankly the start-up is still too long to be of any practical use and shielding is almost always a better option at this point. All I ask is please make it function like a shine in that it appears frame 1, maintain it's jump cancelability, but get rid of that hitbox on it.(it doesn't need to be a shine, it suppose to be an absorber)

I think I disagree with every part of this.

Floaties are his hardest matchup?? Marth to an extent? Make magnet lose its hitbox? Clearly, you aren't following the Ness metagame.

 

[Xebenkeck]

Please give me one example where using the magnet is more beneficial then using a dair? When I play Ness, literally I never use Magnet over a dair. Dair forces your opponent to tech, and if they don't which can be fairly often, then you have them in a tech chase scenario, which is basically an extension of a combo if you read them right.

Zelda is easily one of Ness' hardest opponents to deal with. Dthrow and Uthrow lead to nothing on her if she uses proper DI. Pk fire also doesn't catch her as easily as FF's, and her smash attacks fsmash and usmash blow up Ness' aerial approaches. Shes floaty, combos in general are harder on her. Ness is in a pretty terrible weight class against her, where he is combo bait for her. Especially out of that dambatble Usmash.

Ness can deal with almost all the FF's now. Yes FF's can dole out damage, but Ness can combo the holy crap out of FF's to the point of it becomes fairly even.Way more even then it used to be. The new pk fire, dair, usmash vastly improved his combo ability from melee, where in melee most his combos on FF's relied on dthrow ->uair ->uair -uair->uair.

When I talking about marth, i meant that he is a hard match-up, he isnt what I 'd define as "floaty" but his god dang sword still is a pain to deal with hence the "to an extent". I'm sorry I wasn't very clear about that earlier.

 

[Nausicaa]

Don't use Magnet to attack directly the way you would an aerial. It gives a nice room-of-play when using aerials, and the hit-box is welcome there. Using it purposely to strong or extend combos is just silly.
The fact that it can't reliably be used to absorb projectiles, is just bizarre. I'd rather not have it be as painful to absorb something as it is to reflect something with spacie-shines in terms of delay, but with way less start-up. :/

Link is annoying, Zelda has that same flavor 'to an extent' and has to be dealt with in a similar manner. Sensible to have troubles with it. Different play required.

 

[Nguz95]

I would like to see magnet's hitbox moved to a release hitbox instead of a startup hitbox. That would be very nice.

 

[The_NZA]

I would like to see magnet's hitbox moved to a release hitbox instead of a startup hitbox. That would be very nice.

Then, jumpcanceling it would always be bad basically.

Also, I don't really get why anyone would argue using the magnet hitbox to extend or start combos is a bad thing. Have any of you guys either put out videos or gone to the video critique thread and seen how people are using magnets as a combo extender? The things they are doing are amazing! IMO its not potent enough.

 

[Nguz95]

The release hitbox appears when you jump cancel it. Lucas implements this, and it allows him to hold the magnet on people's shields to apply pressure, and then wavedash into a combo when they let their shield down. It's really potent and I think it would give Ness another way to apply pressure. If Ness had the release hitbox he would be able to approach with the magnet safely. Lucas players often run, short hop, hold magnet for a little while, and DJC a fair as an approach. This lets them absorb projectiles like Wolf's laser while threatening their opponent with the release hitbox. I imagine you could do something similar if Ness' magnet had a release hitbox.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Can we just get a Magnet that's Jump Cancellable before you let go of the B button? Like really, why can we only JC the magnet release?

 

[GMaster171]

Wait what? You can JC it during the absorb loop.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Wait what? You can JC it during the absorb loop.

If you're holding the Magnet, (as in, holding down B without being hit with any projectiles), you can't jump out. You have to let go of B and go into the release animation before you can jump, unlike the spacies' shines and other similar moves. It isn't a significant delay, it just makes the move feel unnecessarily sluggish in my opinion.

Lucas' PSI Magnet has a similar property, but due to the release hit bubble on his, it benefits him greatly.