What changes do YOU want for ness?

[Shins]

With 3.0 (presumably) around the corner, a whole lot is going to change, including ness, and I want to here what you want to change regarding ness.

I think that ness (and lucas') psi magnet should have a set knock back and damage on start up like fox and falco's reflector, as well as a 1st frame invincibility.

 

[Nido]

Quicker grounded PK Fire or less lag after using it is what I kind of want.

A bigger grab range would be GREAT and especially that ******** end lag bull**** afterwards needs to go.

 

[Shins]

Less pk fire lag would be nice so that we could get some more combos in after actually landing it.

EDIT: On second thought, ness' grab lag is below average. (shout out to my main man gmaster)

 

[Kayo]

I think in P:M Ness is already pretty solid in terms of feel and the designs really pay homage to the Nesses of old. The only thing I'd really care about is jumping out of absorb lag with PSI Magnet. Maybe slightly more range on fair, maybe. But that could be the melee in me wanting that one. But even if he get nothing Ness is still super fun to play and that's all that really matters.

 

[Bryonato]

We don't need less lag out of pkf. That move is already strong enough as it is. It's very easy and possible to follow up after a successful hit.

 

[The_NZA]

We don't need less lag out of pkf. That move is already strong enough as it is. It's very easy and possible to follow up after a successful hit.

I second this: there is a lot to learn with pkfire as of yet, and I'm of hte opinion that it is almost too strong. The only thing making that move okay, in my mind, is the fact that Ness doesn't have any other way to really exert stage control. I'll make a long list tomorrow for you guys to look forward to––I've been thinking about this question a lot. BTW, a topic similar to this already exists near the bottom of the forum called "Fixing Ness and where to address char concerns".

 

[Juushichi]

I think Aerial PKF is pretty much okay...

Maybe Grounded PKF should have a bit more cooldown.

Overall, both versions of PKF should be a bit easier to DI/SDI out of for fat characters and slim ones alike.

 

[The_NZA]

I think Aerial PKF is pretty much okay...

Maybe Grounded PKF should have a bit more cooldown.

Overall, both versions of PKF should be a bit easier to DI/SDI out of for fat characters and slim ones alike.

I think we should let the metagame catchup before we fiddle with it. Almost no player I"ve played against has faced pkfire and DIs it wrong. By comparison, the best players I know SDI it fairly well and come out mostly unscathed.

 

[Veishi336]

Well i think that ness is also a pretty solid character. his air PKF is great actually it comes out swiflty and helps with combos. His grounded PKF though does have a bit of lag at the end but still is pretty dang useful to follow up with. I agree with the fact that his grab lag is really not great at all. His jump outta his magnet is a bit difficult to do because of lag of the magnet. Overall he still is a great char

 

[The_NZA]

I normally do not bother with these topics anymore. But Strongbad recently expressed to me that topics like these are actually looked at, even if the BR doesn't post in them, so I'll give everyone the long version.

Overview:
Ness is a fighterjet in the air. By design, he has amazing aerial options and momentum control, allowing him to combo opponents supremely with grabs, DJC and smart aerials. On a secondary level, he has tricky gimmicks to keep his opponents off kilter. PKfire traps, DJC, Magnet momentum shifting all lead to a strong bait and punish game. The key with ness is converting a single hit into long links, and using a strong bait and punish game to create the opportunity to get that first hit in.

By design, Ness is also an incredibly weak character. He is hindered by poor range, and a lack of space control, two of the most treasured traits in the game. He has a slow jump and some bad aerial/ground mobility that makes it hard for him to get to characters that control space better, and play patiently. Often, when I am facing a patient Marth/Link/Ivysaur/Shiek, I find myself attempting to approach and evade various options, slow jumping and DJCing forward only to be knocked away over and over again. It forces me to stand at the edge of my range and pkfire––convert with a pillar, and go in to cause havoc and damage.

I think every good Ness player will tell you, pk fire is arguably the best/safest/most rewarding option in neutral Ness has. I can't even begin to emphasize how many interactions I have had where I failed at an approach against a patient enemy, and deferred to pkfire to fill in the gaps. This wouldn't be so bad, if the move wasn't so boring. Think about it: its not that laggy, every Ness is almost equally good at using it, It puts Ness in a better position on shield or unshielded, and it can often lead to insane damage––but Ness needs it in his current iteration to keep up, because his traits aren't especially good in neutral at setting up his ideal game.

Recommended Changes:
Let's start with Important changes.
Space control and range are meant to be an issue for Ness, no doubt. But Fox also lack those things and succeeds. Everyone says Fox has the best neutral in the game. It is partially due to shine, nair priority, and lasers. But most of all, Fox overcomes his range by exploiting mobility, allowing him to assert control through movement, and teasing out the weak angles.

Ness's design could learn from Fox's.

My suggestion? Up Ness's mobility. This could happen in a few ways:
+Giving him a faster run speed, dash speed, or dash length would help and should be considered.

But Ness, unlike Fox, is an aerial character first and foremost. He shouldn't really be on the ground that much. That's why, I think they need to work on his air mobility. They can do this by:
+increasing his horizontal air mobility,

But I would like to see more of a buff on his magnet. Most people are using Magnet as an aerial wave shine, extending combos while providing tricky movement mixups in neutral. Currently, Magnet stops your vertical altitude and carries a bit of your horizontal momentum for a few seconds through space to stall out an opponent's shield or give you tricky movement options (especially when b-reversed).

I think the BR should play with some variables to +tailor his magnet better for aerial movement. Maybe make it so the magnet actually doesn't preserve a bit of your aerial momentum, and instead preserves all of it or even accelerates it. Imagine if Ness could go into magnet to move faster through the air, and jump out of it when he wanted to? Voila: he'd still have low range, he could still be kept out, but he'd have an interesting way to control how he travels through space that plays well into his "psychic wierdo technical" play style. Ness would be the low range comboer who can affect the height and speed of his jumps when he wants to, without having to rely on traditional methods of space control like lasers, boomerangs, razor leafs, or a goddamn pillar of fire that can combo into anything.

I wouldn't call the next suggestion necessary: just good.
Ness is meant to be a combo house, but his comboability is pretty weight dependent.. It seems like Ness can do really well on heavy/fast fallers, but when he is forced to combo lighter opponents, he can't chase them all that well vertically. This of course, is because of his slow jumps. I think Ness could benefit with a +slight speed boost to his second jump. This way, wavelanding on platforms and chasing an opponent in hitstun seems worth it, because you can actually reach the enemy before he shakes it off. It might also indirectly buff his horizontal mobility, because DJCs would be faster/might reach further than they currently do. It would also buff his edge play, making it so when you punish a recovery like Sheiks by hanging on the edge, you can get back on the stage to actually hit her.

The next set of suggestions I would classify as nice but neither necessary or all that important.
+improve utilt. Right now, there aren't that many distinguishing reasons to use utilt over DJC uair. I think DJC uair is slightly slower, but it does more damage, sets up a better combo angle, and has better coverage.
-I would like to see a range improvement on utilt to have a hitbox not only infront of him, but also behind him.
-or have it lower in its power so you can combo out of it easier with DJC uairs
-or have it increase in its vertical range so it contend with opponents coming down.

+speed up usmash: This move is so situational, its almost pointless. And there's nothing wrong with situational moves, but this one could be a little less situational. It seems like its supposed to be a keepout (since it doesn't reliably combo into anything, its range is far outclassed by dsmash, and it doesn't kill all that well). But it doesn't keep out all that well, probably because its so slow to come around. I think it should be faster, more reminiscent of smash 64 usmash, with a wind up and a quick rotation around Ness.

+make dair fulfill some of its Melee purposes: I wish there was a way to have the sick melee dair properties while having the 64 properties. Just watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=oz_wMI2NXcs&t=25

Because of DJC, the 20 or so startup frames of dair, and the autocancel frames at the end, Melee Ness could DJC his dairs and apply vertical pressure with them while coming safely to the ground. The melee dair and the PM dair have 8 active frames (i think), but the melee dair has the startup that can be used get to the ground fast without floating to the ground with your hitbox gone. If they extended the dair hitbox to be much longer, you could theoretically get the benefit of both dairs (although that would make some stuff REALLY easy, like rising dair edgeguards). Still, I think it would be pretty sick as an option, and Ness already can do those ridiculous edgeguards with good timing (so you don't risk hurting game balance too much by lengthening his hit box duration).

Lastly, here's a buff that would be zany but probably not that important. Credits to Mofo for this one.

It would be cool to +hit L to lose control of pk thunder, sending it in the trajectory it was set to before you let go of it. Doing so would put you in special fall, or if on the ground, put you in the "shakeoff" animation. This change would let Ness refresh invincibility frames on the edge by getting off, and shooting a pkthunder and immediately letting go of it. Furthermore, this change would let Ness exert more space control in a weird way. Imagine shooting a pkthunder on Final Destination, aiming it at your opponent, "letting go of it" and chasing behind it for a follow up (like wolf's blaster). The process would take too long to be used in the heat of a battle, but its a nice mixup at a distance.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Nemiak temp]

TLDR. I read up to his ground mobility needing "important changes" Ness' initial dash is pretty good if you ask me and his movement is among the best in the game. Get out of here with that ****. His air mobility IS ass. That's what DJC is for. The problem with Ness comes mostly from Ness mains. Practice movement. MOVEMENT. It's like the most important thing in this game and it seems like very few PM players give a **** about having decent movement then ***** and moan when they get their ass handed to them by someone with better range. Blah blah whatever. I do like the idea MoFo gave you though. Sounds like a super gimmick BUT definitely a valid mixup and would be fun to stall at the ledge with.

 

[The_NZA]

TLDR. I read up to his ground mobility needing "important changes" Ness' initial dash is pretty good if you ask me and his movement is among the best in the game. Get out of here with that ****. His air mobility IS ***. That's what DJC is for. The problem with Ness comes mostly from Ness mains. Practice movement. MOVEMENT. It's like the most important thing in this game and it seems like very few PM players give a **** about having decent movement then ***** and moan when they get their *** handed to them by someone with better range. Blah blah whatever. I do like the idea MoFo gave you though. Sounds like a super gimmick BUT definitely a valid mixup and would be fun to stall at the ledge with.

Rather than comparing his ground movement to the entire cast, you should be looking at it in relation to characters with as bad range/space control as him. Is it comparable to Fox? Wolf? Cfalcon? Pikachu? Shiek? Diddy (who has projectiles)? Luigi? Wario? ZSS?

I don't think it is. Its fast in a very SINGULAR and one dimensional. Getting around someone's bubble is pretty hard, especially with an opponent who can cut options away from ness with projectiles.

And for the record: when you want to say "GET BETTER, YOUR BAD", try not using caps. Yelling TL:DR and then typing in caps is pretty much the equivalent of holding a giant sign saying "don't listen to me, I'm a ****". I think my movement is pretty damn good, as is my aerial control. Now, if you had commented on a video I have of myself saying "it looks like your mobility is poor" that would be one thing, but you literally painted every Ness player as simply having **** mobility and not knowing their character.

Oh almighty Nemiak, where have you been with your hidden control and countless lessons to bestow to the rest of us.

 

[Nemiak temp]

Damn the salt! My troll was apparently not recognized. (Caps lock anyone?) But I would put his movement on par with Pikachu's at least. Also not saying you're bad. Just saying that his mobility is the least of his worries. (Tiny ass mutha****in limbs are where his issues stem from). He (imo) just needs a better spacing tool than fair. Fair is actually a pretty good spacing tool it just puts him in a poor position against characters like Marth/Sheik that will just swat him out of the air. Something as simple as a new ftilt with more range could really bump Ness up on the viability spectrum I think.

 

[GMaster171]

I agree with most of the points, the pkt idea would open quite a few control options Ness currently doesn't have. utilt needs better utility, or at least needs to do what it is intended to do already. only other thing i would agree on is the increase in double jump speed.

usmash imo does what it needs to, its a very good anti air attack, its lingering hitbox during charge and during swing (in addition to the invincibility of his arm) make it good where it's used (compared to utilt, which fails at its own job sometimes)

his movement is something Im not fully sure on. his ground game isnt really the focus (and with his already decent WD/DD) imo it doesnt really need anything. his air game was already buffed in 2.5, and its hard to tell if adding more would truly help him.

 

[Bryonato]

I agree with everything minus the utilt and usmash changes. Both do what they're intended. I know everyone else hates utilt but I really like it I guess. Comes out really fast and has pretty good priority.

Anywho, I REALLY like the suggestion of faster ground/horizontal movement. Completely back that one 100% I've been advocating for Ness to get a faster 2nd jump for so long now it'd be great to see it come to light. The magnet ideas are great too. PKT change is sick.

 

[Wiisnake]

I feel NZA has some ideas worth looking into.

 

[The_NZA]

Just to clarify—I do think ness has a mobility issue but I don't think every yellow color buff I outline needs to be implemented to solve it. Yeah I'd like to see a faster dash (same distance) and a faster second jump but it could be fine simply buffing the magnet acceleration (my ideal buff).

If magnet acceleration was faster, we could see some truly tricky approaches and ness wouldn't be a floating slow blue target nearly as often. Hell, I could see wavedash behind the opponent out of aerial magnet, and breversal magnets becoming way stronger. The down side is, doing aerial magnet stalling for tech chases would be harder, but if it moves fast enough, a b reversal magnet might effectively do the same thing as an in place stall.

 

[Bryonato]

I completely disagree with the dair change though. Leave that as is.

 

[Nemiak temp]

While that would help in some sense it really doesn't solve any of Ness' issues. "Truly tricky approaches" aka gimmicks. Gimmicks aren't always bad but if you have to rely on tricks to approach you really can't push the metagame of the character much further. Once people realise that it's just a silly trick and punish you for it, the Ness metagame goes right back to DD camping until you have an opening. What you are describing with the aerial magnet stuff sounds like running up to people with fox just to waveshine them. It's a stupid approach and while it can be good for Ness(and Lucas) sometimes I think we should start looking elsewhere for ideas that will make the character as a whole better. Stop giving characters buffs to their gimmicks. Example would be Game and Watches bacon. Previously it was a pretty good anti-air move and pseudo approach and was excellent for controlling the pace of the match on stages with platforms. But most characters have a way to get by it (spacies/links can just nair through it, Marth/Sheik can run under it etc...). As an approach it seems to be great as it land cancels and the hit on the pan is excellent but once your opponent figures it out they can easily punish you for using such a gimmicky tactic. In 2.6 instead of making it an overall better move or just leaving it as it was the PMBR decided to make it even more gimmicky. Oh wow three different sized bacon! And one of them does 13% with rediculous KB! Wow Neutral B so good! Except not really. it's still just a gimmick. Same goes for Ness. Magnet approaches aren't that fantastic and while they are a good mixup, buffing them does nothing to help the Ness metagame except encourage the use of gimmicks as a crutch.
Sorry about the G&W rant unrelated I guess but I'm simply trying to make a comparison.

 

[The_NZA]

I completely disagree with the dair change though. Leave that as is.

Hey Spilffy,

I'm just curious why you would oppose dair having its hitbox stick out for like...16-28 frames instead of 8? I don't know many times people would dair into another option anyways.

 

[Bryonato]

I know this sounds silly but that just seems a little too powerful I guess. I would LOVE that change but considering how powerful dair already is I feel much more comfortable leaving it untouched.

 

[Bryonato]

That said, I'm so tired of the word "gimmick." ****s really getting old.

 

[The_NZA]

That said, I'm so tired of the word "gimmick." ****s really getting old.

Same. Wtf is the definition of a gimmick? Is a gimmick just something where once someone sees it coming, they can deal with it consistently? Doesn't that mean everything in this game is a gimmick? Afterall, isn't charging a fsmash with Ike, or shorthopping and committing to an aerial, or any air dash in any traditional fighter just a gimmick?

Fighting games are made up of moves and options that close off options for your opponent and force them to react in particular ways. Moves that are more effective at this purpose see greater use. A fast as hell aerial magnet sends a hitbox at the opponent at a fast speed while giving you the opportunity to do cross up aerials or airdodge to the ground quickly behind them––in addition, when trapped in this fast moving state, you can move at any height you feel and jump out of it to enable a whole different rate of movement. I don't really know what's "gimmicky" about that: All I see is a move that gives you great movement options, mixup options, and flexibility of approach.

I swear to God, if they invented air dashing in fighting games in 2013, people would be calling it a gimmick.

EDIT:

Also, to clarify the "give dair melee usages", what I mean is simply making it so dair is active for longer than the 9 or so frames it is active. If it were active for like, 18 frames, you could jump DJC dair and fast fall on an opponent/shield, and by the time you reach the ground it autocancels to be lagless. Ness did this in melee ALL the time, as you can see in the video I posted.

 

[Yurya]

Some ideas I have/like:

1. psi attack added to uptilt (possibly others like dtilt, ftilt, nair) giving it a nice range boost.

2. PK Thunder emerging from Ness' side in a way that by holding down the Thunder is immediately directed to the bottom of Ness allowing for an immediate recovery at a 45ish degree angle, greatly boosting his recovery under pressure.

3. uair replaced by a psi wave/arm sweep (think R.O.B.s uair with more horizontal kb) above him; he loses a stronger kill move but gains another combo tool with much better range (imo much better with his moveset especially as it replaces a very limited vertical move with one that uses his horizontal movement).

anyway ideas...

 

[Wiisnake]

Some ideas I have/like:

1. psi attack added to uptilt (possibly others like dtilt, ftilt, nair) giving it a nice range boost.

2. PK Thunder emerging from Ness' side in a way that by holding down the Thunder is immediately directed to the bottom of Ness allowing for an immediate recovery at a 45ish degree angle, greatly boosting his recovery under pressure.

3. uair replaced by a psi wave/arm sweep (think R.O.B.s uair with more horizontal kb) above him; he loses a stronger kill move but gains another combo tool with much better range (imo much better with his moveset especially as it replaces a very limited vertical move with one that uses his horizontal movement).

anyway ideas...

I like one a lot, not sure about two, but three... NOT THE UP AIR!

 

[TerraScythe]

Ness is generally fine. He definitely has an harder time versus floaty characters due to not being able to follow up properly. If he gets a little something in that department I think he would be well rounded.

I totally agree with a second jump speed increase. Combos seems to just fall short more often than not on some characters when attacking in the air.


Here's some suggestions to PK Flash and PK Thunder 2. Those moves are so underused (with good reason) and it would be nice to see them tweaked to a usable form some way or another.

1. PK Flash

What if the PK Flash projectile started in the air rather than from within Ness and then continued to arc back to the ground?
You could finish your air combos with an instant flash detonation when they are hit too far away for melee.
Flashes would reach the destination quicker giving less time for the opponent to react.

What if PK Flash was able to be cancelled which would then detonate on hitting a player, but not the ground. As it traveled it would still increase in size as per usual. You could set off a PK Flash, then move around and use it in your combos, similarly to how Din's Fire operates except that Flash would move.

2. PK Thunder

Could there be an optional way to make the lightning ball speed up, like pressing L while traveling?
It's easy enough hitting yourself accurately, but having that increased speed of PKT2 launch would help mix up recovery and could be used more often offensively.

 

[Little Nemo]

I want all new specials, personally. I feel Ness's tools do not fit the type of character he is meant to be at all.

 

[Xebenkeck]

Same. Wtf is the definition of a gimmick? I

The definition I have always used is its "a feature that is EXCLUSIVE to a character that is not a standard attack. Only properties."

IC's being a duo is a gimmick, Peach's Float is a gimmick, Jigglypuff dying from shield break is a gimmick, Yoshi's shield is a gimmick, Lucario's OHC system is a gimmick, etc.

Things that are not gimmicks, shines, lucas neutral B, DJCing, multiple characters can do it, wall jumps, wall clings, crawling, etc.



It annoys me too how the word is totally and utterly misused. But this is the best definition I can come up with for it.

 

[Nausicaa]

Changes in the Ness player-base, combining all Ness-power into a single epic player. The campy PK Fire-styles, the shield poky Magnet > DJC B-air-styles, the Grab chase + reset with F-air-styles, the DD Yo-yo/Tilt space/zone styles, all of that craziness into a single solid dynamic player.

Then all these 'Ness needs changes' things will be all like... NAH MANG

 

[The_NZA]

Changes in the Ness player-base, combining all Ness-power into a single epic player. The campy PK Fire-styles, the shield poky Magnet > DJC B-air-styles, the Grab chase + reset with F-air-styles, the DD Yo-yo/Tilt space/zone styles, all of that craziness into a single solid dynamic player.

Then all these 'Ness needs changes' things will be all like... NAH MANG

I'm seriously getting sick of all of these elitist bull**** posts. Plenty of Ness players are playing at an extremely high technical level and are doing exactly what you are saying. The only "missed opportunity" i think some of the best ness players don't employ is camping/spamming pkfire. But just so you know, many of us find that style completely boring and awful to use.

 

[SouthernGent]

Some ideas I have/like:

2. PK Thunder emerging from Ness' side in a way that by holding down the Thunder is immediately directed to the bottom of Ness allowing for an immediate recovery at a 45ish degree angle, greatly boosting his recovery under pressure.

anyway ideas...

Having PKT come out of his head is actually great though there have been plenty of times when an opponent has tried to gimp me and the tail has cancelled the knockback. I think the suggestion above of PKT moving faster would allow for over all faster recovery while also maintaining the option I mentioned.

 

[Nausicaa]

lol NZA, you do realize that it's simply an accurate post with a troll-twist, don't you? XD

Seriously though, if you combined all the top Ness-styles into the play dynamics, you'd have something sexy. Just given that there's such a strong distinction in style is proof enough that meta-game growth is credible to Ness (and everything in the game, obviously) isn't broken yet. Again, not saying changes aren't nice, I'll simply just never go without nudging people towards bettering themselves. The troll-method sure works, given how easy it is to catch attention with it, example as such.

 

[The_NZA]

lol NZA, you do realize that it's simply an accurate post with a troll-twist, don't you? XD

Seriously though, if you combined all the top Ness-styles into the play dynamics, you'd have something sexy. Just given that there's such a strong distinction in style is proof enough that meta-game growth is credible to Ness (and everything in the game, obviously) isn't broken yet. Again, not saying changes aren't nice, I'll simply just never go without nudging people towards bettering themselves. The troll-method sure works, given how easy it is to catch attention with it, example as such.

I don't think I understand the purpose of "troll-twists". It doesn't add anything insightful (not even humor). Seems to me like a pretty poor post *shrugs*.


LOL JK THAT WAS MY TROLL TWIST. Or was it?

 

[The_NZA]

I don't think I understand the purpose of "troll-twists". It doesn't add anything insightful (not even humor). Seems to me like a pretty poor post *shrugs*.


LOL JK THAT WAS MY TROLL TWIST. Or was it?

PS: It was a troll twist. You know now, because I'm telling you after the fact.

 

[Nausicaa]

So... utterly... confused...
Mind-game twist is more like it, and purposeless at that.

Just to clear up the purpose of troll-twist (the comments that tend to irk people/strike a nerve by calling-out of things) is to bring attention that THERE IS TOO MUCH WORK TO DO BEFORE CONSIDERING THE CHARACTER NEEDS BUFFS.
That is all, and that is trufe.

Edit/PS: Did you get double-postpwned by Smashboards?
Why does it keeping happening to everyone? Lag? I don't get eet.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Ness doesn't need buffs. Or changes at all.

 

[Nausicaa]

^
When doing things like that directly, it's usually help to at least direct the conversation towards figuring out how they can compete NOW, since that's the point that's partially being made.
Even better is to give some detail, suggestion, or insight regarding something... examples : Something people are asking as a change and why it isn't needed... : Something that needs more exploring before counting them out from being viable.
At least an attempt at it.
AKA, what happened to Diddy-threads. It LEAD somewhere, despite a detour.



In the meantime... NZA, do you understand what I'm referring to by the whole "Every good Ness plays TOTALLY different, and that alone shows how there's room to grow/converge/optimize." ?

 

[The_NZA]

^
When doing things like that directly, it's usually help to at least direct the conversation towards figuring out how they can compete NOW, since that's the point that's partially being made.
Even better is to give some detail, suggestion, or insight regarding something... examples : Something people are asking as a change and why it isn't needed... : Something that needs more exploring before counting them out from being viable.
At least an attempt at it.
AKA, what happened to Diddy-threads. It LEAD somewhere, despite a detour.



In the meantime... NZA, do you understand what I'm referring to by the whole "Every good Ness plays TOTALLY different, and that alone shows how there's room to grow/converge/optimize." ?

I mean, yeah I see it. I agree that each style differs and the optimal player will combine all styles. But I think many ness players are adept at mixing and matching styles. Personally, my yoyo game could be a bit improved but I employ almost every style I've seen with the exception of being pkfire happy (that style is just inexplicably boringly good). But, I'm in talks with many of the ness players of various styles on our skype group, and all of us seem to agree that Ness has very few advantaged matchups. That speaks to me about how, while Ness players should be open to practicing other styles, I still think he is missing some core tools.

Personally, I don't see that tool as being bigger hitboxes on aerials. Ness is supposed to be low range. I'd like to keep that.

 

[Bryonato]

lol NZA, you do realize that it's simply an accurate post with a troll-twist, don't you? XD

Seriously though, if you combined all the top Ness-styles into the play dynamics, you'd have something sexy. Just given that there's such a strong distinction in style is proof enough that meta-game growth is credible to Ness (and everything in the game, obviously) isn't broken yet. Again, not saying changes aren't nice, I'll simply just never go without nudging people towards bettering themselves. The troll-method sure works, given how easy it is to catch attention with it, example as such.

sorry but the whole "LAWL CANT U TELL I WAS LE TROLLING? XDDDDDDDDD" excuse is really lame.

 

[Red(SP)]

So... utterly... confused...
Mind-game twist is more like it, and purposeless at that.

Just to clear up the purpose of troll-twist (the comments that tend to irk people/strike a nerve by calling-out of things) is to bring attention that THERE IS TOO MUCH WORK TO DO BEFORE CONSIDERING THE CHARACTER NEEDS BUFFS.
That is all, and that is trufe.

Edit/PS: Did you get double-postpwned by Smashboards?
Why does it keeping happening to everyone? Lag? I don't get eet.

Too much work to do? You're kidding, right? Player feedback is probably one of the more valued things in any community. You'd have to be seriously high to think otherwise.
Oh, and we were addressing his issues as a character nonetheless. I can't even think of one MU personally where he has the advantage in, unless it's like Ganon/Luigi which is basically like saying "Oh hey, I can beat characters that are arguably worse than mine yay". I thought the goal here was to advertise proper balance in all areas reachable. Mario vs Sonic in 2.1 was like a 90:10 in Mario's favor lmao. So what do they do? They addressed Sonic's weaknesses and concerns and worked to bring us to 2.5 which inevitably got him the nerf hammer. That's kind of how this works. This process we go through, despite our position in the community as players of these characters is to address what's liked and disliked about our character. That can potentially bring out massive bias, but that's part of how it works. It's like writing a feature for the newspaper; you INSERT yourself into the discussion and make it personal.