What are your opinions on Project M?

[Warhawk]

Maybe its just me not being as used to the physics in Project M but I don't like a lot of the characters' combo games compared to melee. Like with Falcon it seems like I can never get the staple downthow->uair/nair on a few characters and its annoying for me.

 

[`dazrin]

P:M is amazing.

A new era of smash is beginning.

Everyone who I have introduced P:M to has loved it. At the very least, liked it enough that they would compete in tournaments.

 

[ZelDan]

Me and some college friends played P:M alot and had a blast! And yeah, I agree with others on what they said on patches, in that I wouldn't want patches to be too frequent and hurt the growth of P:M's metagame.

From what Falco400 said though it seems like that won't be an issue.

 

[standardtoaster]

Warhawk, what characters were you trying it on?

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Everyone who I have introduced P:M to has loved it. At the very least, liked it enough that they would compete in tournaments.

This is empirically false

Come to my country >_>

E:

One aspect that hasn't been touched in this thread but several people have mentioned to me is that learning a new game like P:M with numerous new matchups and characters is actually bothersome to many, especially those who feel that they have so much room for improvement in Melee and thus they want to focus on Melee. It feels like load of work rather than curious fun, but it also hints that people are taking Smash way too seriously.

I'm saying this because someone mentioned loving to try out new things, well it can go both ways apparently.

 

[Beat!]

This is empirically false

I take it you know the people he has introduced to P:M better than he does, then?

 

[`dazrin]

^

Yeah... LOL
I just said that everyone I have shown P:M to loves it, or at the very least liked it enough to compete in tournaments. Just because your experience was different doesn't mean my experience was "wrong" Lol.

P:M is a fun game, and it's what brawl SHOULD've been. For that reason, many people enjoy it because it's something that breathes life into the smash scene by offering us something new, in the form of something old. Many people think it's already an amazing game as it is, and it's not even done! It's just going to get better.

I am taking on the challenge of building an P:M Scene in my area, and so far, it's been a lot of fun and very easy to do because 99% of people I show it to love it! There is definitely potential in this project, and yknow, some people aren't going to like it and stick to melee/ brawl. Whatever, people have different tastes. But it would seem most people have a lot of fun playing this game, and I'm really proud of all the devs for pouring so much time and effort into this project for the community.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

I take it you know the people he has introduced to P:M better than he does, then?

****ing dyslexia, I swear I jump half of the words I'm supposed to read, sorry >_>

 

[Jockmaster]

I find the excuse that "it's too hard to learn" is kind of a cop out...if that's the case I hope you enjoy playing Melee and only Melee for the rest of your life lol.

I have had the same experience as daze; my friends who have played tons of melee love PM because of the new balance and variety in it, and my n00b friends are like "OMGz its all fast and exciting like melee but we can use Ike now!!#!"

 

[Johnknight1]

I love Project M, and I love the directions they have taken many characters, especially the Brawl newcomers and the characters that were awful in Melee and/or Smash 64.

I like how the cast feels a lot more balanced than Melee, and how you can pick up any character (well, almost any character) and compete.

The only thing I don't like are some of the Brawl sound effects (especially Fox's; Ike's sound effects are bad a**), that the game feels a tad slower than Brawl, and that Snake's bootie didn't get buffed in size! Oh, and how the Summit didn't get totally recreated (and made into a non-moving stage). The only thing I would like to add (other than the extra 10 Brawl characters) would be Mewtwo (maybe Roy), Mute City (dang if that stage isn't impossible to add), and some more Melee music. That and make some of the best Melee characters more like their Melee selves, which I understand requires a lot of hard work, timing, and whatnot... but hopefully it gets done eventually!

Still, I find the Project M to Melee comparisons kinda funny. Even if it is meant to be "Melee 2.0," it never will be. Project M shouldn't be compared to Melee, but considered its' own game. It definitely plays like such. Plus it's nice to see a smash game where few characters are garbage!

 

[`dazrin]

the game feels a tad slower than Brawl,

Uh,,,,

wat? lol

 

[PlagueX]

I prefer Melee because it's more polished and "feels" better to play. Also, I do dislike the Brawl graphics and sound effects (Melee bias).

That being said, P:M will keep on improving while Melee stays the same. The fact that they have succeeded to make the game so close to melee without even touching the source code is ridiculous to me.

This.

I think P:M will surpass Melee eventually, due to the time / improvement - factor. If Brawl had been like P:M, I doubt so many would play Melee anymore.

I think melee will always win, 100% Melee bias forever.

 

[Bing]

Yeah I dont understand how people can say its only a bit faster then Brawl. Its melee physics... I think some people are either a)Ignorant to the fact that P:M could infact be equal to melee in terms of speed, or b) Havent actually played it and just assume its just like Brawl but with wavedashing.


Also I love using Bowsers Taunt in combos. ****s too Good.

Fair, jab, right(?) taunt, grab, up-throw, up-air. I was dying lmfao

 

[Bing]

This.



I think melee will always win, 100% Melee bias forever. Who the **** would want to play melee without wave dashing? Thats just stupid and inferior.

You can wavedash.. Waveshine etc etc in P:M

But thanks for coming out, you can take your free t-shirt at the door.

 

[PlagueX]

You can wavedash.. Waveshine etc etc in P:M

But thanks for coming out, you can take your free t-shirt at the door.

Ya that was my bad, I edited my post. I don't think P:M had wavedashing the last time i looked.

 

[Ripple]

Idk about anyone else but WDing just doesn't feel as useful in PM for some reason.

I don't use it

 

[PlagueX]

Idk about anyone else but WDing just doesn't feel as useful in PM for some reason.

I don't use it

But the thing is now that they have it working they can always improve it so you never know how good it will get.

 

[Bing]

I sort of agree I think its more character specific. Like I main Lucario, and I rarely use it, when I use Fox or Falco though I use it a ton.

 

[Massive]

Probably the main reason the game feels slow is the responsiveness of the controls. Even with all the move buffering and whatnot taken out, the inputs are still not as precise as those required for melee. Additionally Project M's landing and momentum mechanics are still pretty far off from melee.

Those landing, edgecancelling, and wavelanding/dashing mechanics that make melee feel like a smooth, fluid play experience appear exceedingly difficult to replicate properly in the brawl engine. The weight and combo mechanics of Project: M are definitely melee-esque, but the flair and smoothness that allows melee to still be strong after a decade are just lacking.

The mod obviously isn't finished, and it is very fun considering how bleh the source material was. I look forward to new characters, but I don't expect anyone is able to recapture melee's lightning in a bottle a second time.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Idk about anyone else but WDing just doesn't feel as useful in PM for some reason.

I don't use it

I use it ALOT, but I agree it's hardcore character dependent. As sonic, I use it constantly, along with wave landing.
But say as bowser, I use it maybe twice per match, and as snake, only for when I'm out of range and willing to take the risk for the hit.

 

[Cummings]

Probably the main reason the game feels slow is the responsiveness of the controls. Even with all the move buffering and whatnot taken out, the inputs are still not as precise as those required for melee. Additionally Project M's landing and momentum mechanics are still pretty far off from melee.

I probably just haven't played the game enouph, but I still play it as if it were brawl. It's LOADS more fun, but It's probably just the skin confusing me.

 

[foshio]

WD-ing was always character dependent, take H-box's puff for example, hardly has to WD in melee, still a champ! I use ness, lucas and melee characters... with ness wavelanding is very important (infact I find wavelanding crucial for all characters...?) Lucas has a brilliant WD, and obvs with spacies I use it all the time. I have played this game alot and it takes about a game and a half to transfer my fox from melee to PM and vice versa.

 

[`dazrin]

Brawl players will take some getting used to to re-learning their old melee habits. Melee players will find that skill from melee transfers over quite well in P:M, although very dedicated melee purists will probably complain about the subtle differences in the game's engine.

Nevertheless, P:M is a game that all smashers of any kind can find enjoyable! Today, I got the privilege of witnessing a unification of both the brawl and melee scenes here in BC, playing together and having a great time playing P:M, getting along and all that mushy stuff. It was truly amazing to see.

 

[Wolfy!]

I find it extremely fun. I consider it to be more of a side-event game right now but once it reaches completion and the physics are fine tuned to where they finally should be, I think Project M could really take off as a mainstay game.

 

[abcool]

Probably the main reason the game feels slow is the responsiveness of the controls. Even with all the move buffering and whatnot taken out, the inputs are still not as precise as those required for melee. Additionally Project M's landing and momentum mechanics are still pretty far off from melee.

Those landing, edgecancelling, and wavelanding/dashing mechanics that make melee feel like a smooth, fluid play experience appear exceedingly difficult to replicate properly in the brawl engine. The weight and combo mechanics of Project: M are definitely melee-esque, but the flair and smoothness that allows melee to still be strong after a decade are just lacking.

The mod obviously isn't finished, and it is very fun considering how bleh the source material was. I look forward to new characters, but I don't expect anyone is able to recapture melee's lightning in a bottle a second time.

I wanted to correct you on this and anyone that feels it is slower by comparison. The game is exactly the same as Melee in the things you listed. Their is something in the Brawl engine that applies all physics a frame later. So like in P:M, if you shorthop nair, the nair doesn't come out on the same frame you shorthop it comes out a frame later. Same as AD and obviously WDing. You input Jump and AD on the same frame, but the AD comes out frame 1 instead of 0 and the momentum from that applies frame 1 aswell. This is why it feels weird or off and Fox/Falco etc feel different. If you watch the mango commentary at the last tournament he attended the guy commentating with him points this out, he talks about the "dead frame"

They have a few other things they have to fix like momentum stacking and grab release points to make things like Fox's upthrow upair connect on characters it should. All of these things will be fixed and so IMO Project M could replace Melee. In fact we barely play Melee in the bahamas like we used to mostly just P:M, but maybe because P:M revived the community slightly. The balance fixes and Online (I know it's crap, but still) makes it just the more palyable game in countries with small communities.

 

[Massive]

I wanted to correct you on this and anyone that feels it is slower by comparison. The game is exactly the same as Melee in the things you listed.

One sentence later:

Their is something in the Brawl engine that applies all physics a frame later.

I am fully aware that the weight/knockback values are taken directly from melee. However, if everything happens one frame later, it's not the same at all. It's not just like melee with 1 frame of lag. Trust me, I know exactly what that feels like.
The order of events as far as DI and movement are still brawl native, and the game will never feel quite the same without rewriting huge chunks of the core code.

Again, I like Project: M quite a bit. It's fun, but there are still substantial differences that just make the game feel and play slower than melee. Things like weird momentum KOs and the wiimote input lag correction will be nearly impossible to fix.

It may replace melee for people who did not like melee very much, and it could very easily replace brawl (because it's universally better than brawl), but some of the core issues leftover from brawl (response speed/input lag differences) will still make it less enjoyable than melee to many people.

 

[The Star King]

^So you think the source of your complaints are unfixable?

 

[abcool]

I don't think i said it quite correctly. Ok all the stats in the game are ported directly from Melee and Di and movement are not brawl it is all Melee already. I think Magus needs to explain the 1 frame thing to you like he explained to us on smashmods because he stated that Brawl applies physics a frame later than Melee does, but the character stats are 100% ported except some up-bs.

If Magus comes in here he should correct us both. We seem to be talking about different things.

Edit: Also, never doubt the PMBR. After 2 years of following these guys their is reason they call Magus a wizard. He fixed landing detection. If that can be accomplished anything can. The weird momentum you speak of must be momentum stacking which i mentioned before. Their are somethings that needs to be fixed, but they will have have a work around(If they can't be). Melee is a beast game, but if you don't main a top tier it's not as enjoyable. Where as games like P:M lets you play your favorite and be able to possibly win, not ok i am up against a sheik time to give this guy my money.

 

[Massive]

^So you think the source of your complaints are unfixable?

Being a programmer, I know for a fact that almost everything is fixable. I also know that brawl's object oriented, event-driven architecture are conducive to attribute changes but not so much to engine changes. The reason this is difference is still there while things like character stats are fixed is clear evidence of it.

Honestly, I don't see anyone extending the effort to fix these things since they are not game-breaking or overtly annoying, they just make the game feel a bit slower/less responsive than melee. I'd be willing to wager that since they released the demo with this in it, it's probably not going away for the release version.

Melee is a beast game, but if you don't main a top tier it's not as enjoyable.

I frequently beat many, many people with my melee Kirby. I play him more than my main at this point. Kirby is tied for worst character in the game.

Where as games like P:M lets you play your favorite and be able to possibly win, not ok i am up against a sheik time to give this guy my money.

My favorite character in any smash game is Ness, and he's still terrible. Ike never seems to lose. Anecdote denied.

 

[PlagueX]

Honestly, I don't see anyone extending the effort to fix these things since they are not game-breaking or overtly annoying, they just make the game feel a bit slower/less responsive than melee. I'd be willing to wager that since they released the demo with this in it, it's probably not going away for the release version.

I will have to 100% disagree with you here. Do you realize removing "dead frame" would help accomplish exactly what P:M stands for? We need the dead frame to be removed for P:M to be as close to melee as possible, otherwise that would defeat the purpose of even attempting P:M. We need a modifiable copy as close to melee as possible (with a brawl character cast of course). How would you not want that and simply give up on removing the dead frame that easily? I think there should at least be an optional code for removing the dead frame since removing it all together will probably not happen due to the lack of support of the idea from brawl players sadly.

 

[Magus420]

There's pretty much nothing I can't fix in the game at this point anymore. Just saying. There's simply a very long list of things I want to work on in it, I'm one guy, and I only picked up ppc assembly and game hacking a year and some ago while having no previous programming experience. You're also way off in thinking that I don't care about fixing such things important to the feel of the game because they happen to still be that way in the demo.

This explains the physics delay btw: http://www.smashmods.com/forum/thread-4341-post-72263.html#pid72263

 

[PlagueX]

There's pretty much nothing I can't fix in the game at this point anymore. Just saying. There's simply a very long list of things I want to work on in it, I'm one guy, and I only picked up ppc assembly and game hacking a year and some ago while having no previous programming experience. You're also way off in thinking that I don't care about fixing such things important to the feel of the game because they happen to still be that way in the demo.

This explains the physics delay btw: http://www.smashmods.com/forum/thread-4341-post-72263.html#pid72263

Please create no dead frame codes Mangus. This thread is proof that a large amount of people are in support of removing the dead frames. I know you may never make the no dead frames codes a standard part of P:M due to the lack of support from brawl players I read from searching up "dead frame" and reading the few old threads on your forums. But this is a very reasonable compromise, just create the codes and post them on your website to satisfy those who want to play P:M without dead frames.

What do you have to loose? Nothing, there is only fans of P:M to gain and that is something you and the smash community both want. Maybe if the no dead frames codes become popular enough you can make it the standard for P:M. But please consider this compromise.

There are so many of us that appreciate what you do for P:M and only wish to see it continue to grow. Thank you for creating such a beautiful mod.

 

[Magus420]

There is no reason not to fix it and make it default, and I can't think of anyone who's against making the game more responsive. Don't worry lol.

 

[PlagueX]

There is no reason not to fix it and make it default, and I can't think of anyone who's against making the game more responsive. Don't worry lol.

This is amazing news, even better than I hoped for. Thank you.

 

[Eggm]

Played it at StriCNYN3's house. Garbage.

 

[abcool]

.


My favorite character in any smash game is Ness, and he's still terrible. Ike never seems to lose. Anecdote denied.

My last post since Magus did his thing and cleared up the confusion and a special thanks to him again for making this mod possible. Their was big regret in me for owning a wii until a friend of mine introduced me to Brawl+ an then i heard of P:M idea the moment they thought of it and followed it since then.

The point is like i stated; people want to use their favorite character and WIN. Oh, an Ike is not thought of as broken in west coast Toonlink is. An in Europe Lucario is thought of as broken. Anecdote denied. Also, i am done with this Magus has spoken. P:M da besss lol

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Played it at StriCNYN3's house. Garbage.

Awesome, the comment I was waiting for

 

[Zoler]

Dont like the feel of the game at all compared to melee, Ike and falcon is somewhat fun to play but sheik and fox feels wierd. Peach is alright...

 

[Warhawk]

Fox feels and looks really weird. So ugly now lol.

 

[`dazrin]

Not EVERYONE is going to like it. And that's fine. The game isn't even done yet, so its understandable that there will be a fair amount of people who will prefer melee.