What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[ぱみゅ]

Come to think of it, the 1-Custom-per-character thing might not be a bad starting point.
Hopefully if it gets some trial. people might eventually realize "man,why can this bad character not use more than one custom?", and begin allowing a bit more.
Maybe.

 

[DunnoBro]

Come to think of it, the 1-Custom-per-character thing might not be a bad starting point.
Hopefully if it gets some trial. people might eventually realize "man,why can this bad character not use more than one custom?", and begin allowing a bit more.
Maybe.

Yea that's pretty much the only reason I even consider 1-custom somewhat appealing.

Personally as I've stated before though, I think custom advocates should focus their efforts on mii legality.

 

[FallenHero]

Unlocking customs is a huge pain, so that is one thing that is probably going to keep customs from becoming the new meta. Sure a lot of people will probably have every custom in the game at some point, if they already don't have them all, but if someone decides to buy Smash 4 now and get into competitive they would have to go through the process of unlocking all those customs. The other big problem about customs is that there is way too much cheese. Playing against things like custom Villager and all those windbox customs that almost every character has is just not fun. The only way that we could avoid that is if they ban specific customs, but a lot of people are against the idea of banning certain moves and it would probably be a pain to have to remember exactly which customs are allowed and which aren't. I know that "fun" isn't exactly the most important thing when it comes to high level competition, but if a competitive game isn't fun enough it won't attract as many new people to the scene and could lead to the death of the game. Personally, I wouldn't really even bother continuing playing this game competitively if every tournament out there is using customs.

 

[nodle]

Personally, I wouldn't really even bother continuing playing this game competitively if every tournament out there is using customs.

Why do you say that? What do you think is the single biggest reason why you wouldn't want to play with customs?

You know, this actually might be a pretty good idea. They already increase the stock count for doubles, so why not allow a bunch of cool moves into the mix? All the "stupid" ones wouldn't be as effective, and the ones that make characters viable can still perform their purpose! Do you really think it could happen?

Not really, but its more likely to work than repeatedly telling people they are wrong to not like customs. We have to try to lead by example, even if it unlikely that we will succeed.

 

[90007000]

Omni already called out customs people!

 

[Raijinken]

Unlocking customs is a huge pain, so that is one thing that is probably going to keep customs from becoming the new meta. Sure a lot of people will probably have every custom in the game at some point, if they already don't have them all, but if someone decides to buy Smash 4 now and get into competitive they would have to go through the process of unlocking all those customs. The other big problem about customs is that there is way too much cheese. Playing against things like custom Villager and all those windbox customs that almost every character has is just not fun. The only way that we could avoid that is if they ban specific customs, but a lot of people are against the idea of banning certain moves and it would probably be a pain to have to remember exactly which customs are allowed and which aren't. I know that "fun" isn't exactly the most important thing when it comes to high level competition, but if a competitive game isn't fun enough it won't attract as many new people to the scene and could lead to the death of the game. Personally, I wouldn't really even bother continuing playing this game competitively if every tournament out there is using customs.

While I respect your opinion, I find windboxes far more entertaining and exciting than many defaults. Also, does banning windboxes include forcing Mario to use Scalding Fludd, Sheik to use Gravity Grenade, etc?

The grind is a valid complaint, and if anything, I am concerned that if we got the much-desired quick selection options on the character menu, we may actually struggle to keep interest as an unlock becomes necessary (unless it doesn't due to other changes). But a grind (which can be completely automated for the price of a turbo controller, or nearly automated for free) is worth it.

 

[FallenHero]

Why do you say that? What do you think is the single biggest reason why you wouldn't want to play with customs?


Not really, but its more likely to work than repeatedly telling people they are wrong to not like customs. We have to try to lead by example, even if it unlikely that we will succeed.

Well I say that because I don't really enjoy playing against or watching people who win by out janking the opponent with all their downright over powered customs. The age of Diddy is over, bringing a lot more diversity to the meta, but Sakurai said he won't be changing customs in balance patches so things like custom Villager and Donkey Kong's custom up b won't ever get nerfed.

 

[Raijinken]

Well I say that because I don't really enjoy playing against or watching people who win by out janking the opponent with all their downright over powered customs. The age of Diddy is over, bringing a lot more diversity to the meta, but Sakurai said he won't be changing customs in balance patches so things like custom Villager and Donkey Kong's custom up b won't ever get nerfed.

I welcome my opponents to spam Kong Cyclone. Far more manageable than DK landing a grab on me for 30%.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Well I say that because I don't really enjoy playing against or watching people who win by out janking the opponent with all their downright over powered customs. The age of Diddy is over, bringing a lot more diversity to the meta, but Sakurai said he won't be changing customs in balance patches so things like custom Villager and Donkey Kong's custom up b won't ever get nerfed.

He also said (more like, translators said he said) many things that ultimately didn't become true.
Funny enough, Customs HAVE been patched in the past.

Also, I consider Mr. R's Shoryukens way more cheesy than 90% of the customs.
And I still liked it.

 

[FallenHero]

I welcome my opponents to spam Kong Cyclone. Far more manageable than DK landing a grab on me for 30%.

Yeah I don't know what they were thinking when they allowed DK to do that, but at least we know there is a chance that won't be a problem anymore and just because people will be playing with customs on doesn't mean they won't try to get 30% on you from a grab.

He also said (more like, translators said he said) many things that ultimately didn't become true.
Funny enough, Customs HAVE been patched in the past.

Also, I consider Mr. R's Shoryukens way more cheesy than 90% of the customs.
And I still liked it.

Even if there cheesy things like Mr. R's shoryukens (which I have not seen) in vanilla Smash 4, customs will just amplify the amount of cheese that some people might not even consider the game competitive anymore.

 

[nodle]

Well I say that because I don't really enjoy playing against or watching people who win by out janking the opponent with all their downright over powered customs. The age of Diddy is over, bringing a lot more diversity to the meta, but Sakurai said he won't be changing customs in balance patches so things like custom Villager and Donkey Kong's custom up b won't ever get nerfed.

I don't like the word 'jank'. In my experience, players will all to often use the word jank to describe any move or strategy that they personally don't know how to deal with. Players who understand the moves or strategies rarely refer to them as jank.

Kong cyclone is a good attack, but its very easy to beat with decent timing. You can literally just knock DK out of the move every time. Even if you mess up your punish and miss the 4 frames of vulnerablity, It's easy to dodge out of the move, taking away its ability to deal meaningful damage and knockback. If the DK player isn't stage cancelling their lag, it becomes a trivial matter to punish the players for their overuse of Kong Cyclone.

 

[Raijinken]

I don't like the word 'jank'. In my experience, players will all to often use the word jank to describe any move or strategy that they personally don't know how to deal with. Players who understand the moves or strategies rarely refer to them as jank.

Kong cyclone is a good attack, but its very easy to beat with decent timing. You can literally just knock DK out of the move every time. Even if you mess up your punish and miss the 4 frames of vulnerablity, It's easy to dodge out of the move and ake away its ability to deal meaningful damage and knockback. If the DK player isn't stage cancelling their lag, it becomes a trivial matter to punish the players for their overuse of Kong Cyclone.

If forum debates were games of Smash, the word jank would be the jankiest move of all. Nonsensically powerful to anyone who thinks it's good at all, spammed like mad, and really just a bad argument/move.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Even if there cheesy things like Mr. R's shoryukens (which I have not seen) in vanilla Smash 4, customs will just amplify the amount of cheese that some people might not even consider the game competitive anymore.

Didn't we already covered this topic very recently?

Boosting as many characters as possible makes the game comparatively more balanced.
With or without cheese, why isn't it better to have more VIABLE options?

 

[FallenHero]

Didn't we already covered this topic very recently?

Boosting as many characters as possible makes the game comparatively more balanced.
With or without cheese, why isn't it better to have more VIABLE options?

Looking through a few of the pages before this one I am going to have to say something you guys have probably already seen others say a few times, adding more cheese to a game that already has a lot of cheese won't make the game anymore balanced. Has it even been proven that the game is more balanced with customs on?

 

[PoptartLord]

With or without cheese, why isn't it better to have more VIABLE options?

Because having more viable options means more match-ups to learn. People are already complaining about the effort it takes to unlock specials (even though there are semi-autonomous ways to do so) so of course it's too much of an effort to learn how to fight against X more threatening characters. I suppose I should mention there's a limit to how much one can remember... but wouldn't the ability to retain large amounts of match-up knowledge be a metric of being a good player, thereby you're outplaying the opponent with knowledge? [there has got to be a better way to phrase that last sentence; I hope the message got through alright]

Alternative answer:
It's fine unless all of the viable options are cheese-less. Now if there is "cheese" among the accepted, viable options then stating the same "cheese" is unacceptable elsewhere is nothing short of hypocrisy.

...adding more cheese to a game that already has a lot of cheese won't make the game anymore balanced.

The game creators would differ with you there. They're the ones that created and put into the game not only the base cheese but also the extra cheese. ...which I don't even see as extra, rather part of the base whole (see my previous post for details).

Has it even been proven that the game is more balanced with customs on?

What's with all the people demanding proof that adding in the alternative specials increases balance? Where's the proof that removing them has increased balance? Expanding upon your [and others] demand, has it even been proven that the game is more balanced with unlockable [or DLC] characters on? How about with unlockable stages on? "Oh PoptartLord, you're so silly! Of course those are fine, they're an integral part of the game!" *watches as the dots get connected and floating light bulbs turn on*

-PoptartLord

 

[Steelballray]

I don't know how you guys find it in you to call Default supporters all kinds of **** when you admit it yourself that the custom meta is different than the default meta. This isn't a change in stocks or time limit, this is an ENTIRELY different meta we are talking about, so stop being a bunch of salty little children and understand that different people want different things.
@ ぱみゅ and especially @wizrad this is spesfically directed at you.

Not everyone and not even half of the people who hate customs are lazy. Gamers by nature are not lazy. Gamers don't mind learning games for years to be good at them( LoL and Melee) so your statements that "ignorance and kneejerk reactions are the biggest enemies of customs." are silly at best.

People find customs bad and enjoyable for whatever reason they have. Just get over it already.

 

[FallenHero]

What's with all the people demanding proof that adding in the alternative specials increases balance? Where's the proof that removing them has increased balance? Expanding upon your [and others] demand, has it even been proven that the game is more balanced with unlockable [or DLC] characters on? How about with unlockable stages on? "Oh PoptartLord, you're so silly! Of course those are fine, they're an integral part of the game!" *watches as the dots get connected and floating light bulbs turn on*

-PoptartLord

I meant that sort of as a rhetorical question, since looking at the posts in the previous few pages a few people asked the exact same question trying to use it to invalidate some aguements against customs. I guess I really didn't communicate that well, but we both seem to agree it is a pretty dumb question to ask.

 

[Raijinken]

I don't know how you guys find it in you to call Default supporters all kinds of **** when you admit it yourself that the custom meta is different than the default meta. This isn't a change in stocks or time limit, this is an ENTIRELY different meta we are talking about, so stop being a bunch of salty little children and understand that different people want different things.
@ ぱみゅ and especially @wizrad this is spesfically directed at you.

Not everyone and not even half of the people who hate customs are lazy. Gamers by nature are not lazy. Gamers don't mind learning games for years to be good at them( LoL and Melee) so your statements that "ignorance and kneejerk reactions are the biggest enemies of customs." are silly at best.

People find customs bad and enjoyable for whatever reason they have. Just get over it already.

I think I'm one of few who has gone out of their way to point out that the two metas are distinct and cannot be reasonably compared directly.

That said, it's pro gamers, not gamers in general, who are relatively un-lazy. But that doesn't mean they won't take a shortcut if one exists. Nor does it mean that their un-laziness is directed at all parts of playing. There are still people attending tournaments who haven't unlocked Smashville because it requires entering a single-player mode. I'm too lazy to sit down in training mode and try any combo over and over again, but I cleared both versions' challenge grids.

Complaining about increased move/matchup knowledge requirements is self-preserving laziness. Not wanting to unlock 384 random and duplicatable drops is entirely separate laziness. Only one of them is a valid complaint in a competitive stance, and that only if you (like many, apparently) don't think the additional moves are worth the unlock (or transfer) time.

 

[blackghost]

Unlocking customs is a huge pain, so that is one thing that is probably going to keep customs from becoming the new meta. Sure a lot of people will probably have every custom in the game at some point, if they already don't have them all, but if someone decides to buy Smash 4 now and get into competitive they would have to go through the process of unlocking all those customs. The other big problem about customs is that there is way too much cheese. Playing against things like custom Villager and all those windbox customs that almost every character has is just not fun. The only way that we could avoid that is if they ban specific customs, but a lot of people are against the idea of banning certain moves and it would probably be a pain to have to remember exactly which customs are allowed and which aren't. I know that "fun" isn't exactly the most important thing when it comes to high level competition, but if a competitive game isn't fun enough it won't attract as many new people to the scene and could lead to the death of the game. Personally, I wouldn't really even bother continuing playing this game competitively if every tournament out there is using customs.

There are multiple sources you can use to learn to fight a custom villaer it isnt impossible. there is also ALWAYS a barrier for new players to join a competitive landscape thats why its competitive. melee has new players all the time you can barely find the system or a copy of melee today. and theres no way for most players to fight online to gain experience.
Dont bring up the windbox thing its an excuse. windboxes are in the default game so why single them out like they are only in customs? further more what "windbox customs" are you referring to?don't say kongcyclone that move isn't the monster everyone says it is. Competition in this game will be fun if more characters are actually viable and not just doomed to a future of not being played or developed.
Honestly it sounds like you dont even know that much about custom moves. What cheese are you talking about? need some data to back that up. if by cheese you mean early kills then what is zss to you? losing becasue you lack the knowledge of a matchup isn't cheese. the 2 jankiest moves in smash 4 are in default (peach parasol kills at zero and game and watch bucket is stupid period)

 

[NickRiddle]

The only way I see customs working out is to make a brand new limited selection of movesets, like Ampharos's, that excludes the moves a majority agrees as being problematic.

The "all-or-nothing" paradigm has to die sooner rather than later, because progress won't be made without compromise. Arbitrary restrictions like having 1 custom move per character are also meaningless and will get us nowhere. We have to reach a significant majority vote, or it will turn into a scenario where, coupled with the anti-customs crowd, the majority of Smashers are against what gets implemented. This isn't a presidential election, so let's try to preserve some facsimile of good sense.

For this conversation to become productive, we have to first agree on what custom moves are controversial and why. To that end, I propose we arrange for some of the high-level players and experienced community organizers to chime in on what moves, specifically, are causing the backlash against customs in general--both from the player and community perspectives.

@Mew2King @AllyKnight @Dabuz @ChileZeRo @DEHF @-6WX- @Mr-R @ NickRiddle @Rayquaza07 @mrconcon @MVD @Nairo @GimR @FOW

My scene just doesn't like customs... it's not about them being controversial, it's about customs not being what we want to play... it's not that hard.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I plan to start attending a weekly local in my area and try to persuade folks that customs don't have cooties. Any suggestions for a specific course of action? I was thinking some labbing in training mode with stuff like Flying Peach Bomber.

 

[nodle]

My scene just doesn't like customs... it's not about them being controversial, it's about customs not being what we want to play... it's not that hard.

Thank you. You have broken through to the bedrock of the debate. If we are going to convince people to use customs, we have to do more than repeatedly tell them "Customs are balancing", we need to show them that customs can work. We need to show them that customs can create a healthy and powered meta. But mostly, we need to show them that customs are fun....

 

[Raijinken]

I plan to start attending a weekly local in my area and try to persuade folks that customs don't have cooties. Any suggestions for a specific course of action? I was thinking some labbing in training mode with stuff like Flying Peach Bomber.

I'd suggest asking the TO if, provided you bring your own setup, you can have it dedicated specifically to customs for demonstration and friendlies. No assigning normal matches to it, and ideally, encourage people to actually USE the customs. If you have a low crowd, you can even clear some spots for people to pick their own sets if they aren't on the existing project.

 

[LancerStaff]

Did Final Mix fix the issue where the game boiled down to mashing triangle to win fights? (I jest somewhat. I enjoyed KH2, but it's not a game I would praise for depth of combat.)

Either way, it's strange that this is brought up, because in some ways, it directly counters other anti-customs arguments. People complain about Heavy Skull Bash, but how often do you see a Pikachu use regular Skull Bash? Little Mac may scarcely benefit from Flaming Lunge, but even its recovery mixup option is more use than the regular one sees. Falcon Dash Punch is in a similar boat. Obviously there are, and will be, moves that don't see any use, default or custom. But not only will enabling them give us the option to find out which are really which, it still lets a lot of characters replace a bad move with a better one. And for characters like Ganondorf where half his specials are only for reads, and one is only for recovery, that increased moveset validity increases the fun as it increases the viability.

And I'm still convinced that there is not a character who can win by spamming a single move, unless that character is Sheik with Fair, and even that's a stretch.

I really don't think mashing triangle was an issue to begin with... If you're looking for terrible mechanics then look no further then L-canceling. At least in KH, unless you knew the fight well, mashing triangle won't do much because you either need to trigger the reaction command by attacking or being in the right place. L-canceling is literally mashing L after an aerial. If you messed up an L-cancel you didn't press it enough.

KH2FM is incredibly solid balance and mechanics-wise. People speedrun the the boss rush on the hardest difficultly with a level cap of 1 quite a bit, and before the last route change it made use of all but two spells, five of like twenty keyblades, all but one drive form, a limit, a summon, massive use of Goofy, and the majority of the skills available at level 1. For a game that's essentially ten years old and no balance patches that's pretty impressive... You're underrating the depth of the game quite a bit.

Some characters are helped with moveset usefulness, most of what matters I'd say are hurt. Replacing a useless move with a one-size-fits-all move is just moving it to the opposite side of the spectrum, and pretty clearly worse. Without HSB Pika's other kill options are important, with, they don't matter as much. And again, dealing with a move that fits every situation is a pain. Fighters are based on a core rock-paper-scissors system, so when one move does everything it removes depth.

Never said there was...

 

[DunnoBro]

As much as we love to exaggerate, there yet exists a custom that covers -every- situation or even most of them. So that explanation is rather faulty.

Also if you recall, ESAM killed himself with HSB more than he did others on stream. While it does provide another kill option in a likely unhealthy manner, I don't think it detracts from his other kill options enough for that to be the issue.

A custom that removes depth is like kong cyclone or trip sapling. HSB doesn't really provide multiple option coverage, it just provides one. Aerial kill potential, and the fact it's so absurdly strong is the issue.

 

[nodle]

I'd suggest asking the TO if, provided you bring your own setup, you can have it dedicated specifically to customs for demonstration and friendlies. No assigning normal matches to it, and ideally, encourage people to actually USE the customs. If you have a low crowd, you can even clear some spots for people to pick their own sets if they aren't on the existing project.

This is a great idea. I can't encourage people to do this enough.

Some characters are helped with moveset usefulness, most of what matters I'd say are hurt. Replacing a useless move with a one-size-fits-all move is just moving it to the opposite side of the spectrum, and pretty clearly worse. Without HSB Pika's other kill options are important, with, they don't matter as much. And again, dealing with a move that fits every situation is a pain. Fighters are based on a core rock-paper-scissors system, so when one move does everything it removes depth.

HSB is a setup kill move, and a mostly pointless 3rd jump. With HSB, Pika's other kill options are still important, just like shiek with bouncing fish still uses upAirs and upBs to kill. Anyone who actually plays pikachu knows that HSB isn't a be all end all move. It gives pikachu a good kill option, but you should still be using all the other kill options (there aren't many) as well.

 

[Raijinken]

Never said there was...

You are correct and I apologize. I interpreted your post as suggesting that there were moves or options so good that they could be used successfully simply by spamming them, which is false. I now, upon re-reading, am interpreting your statement as "There will be cases in which a move is simply not worth choosing, or in which a move outclasses all others", which is true.

That said, I'm actually a bit curious about Shocking Skull Bash. While it lacks the obvious kill power of Heavy Skull Bash, I felt (from a brief match) like it could be harder to punish than the other two Skull Bash versions. Anyone have experience or thoughts on this?

 

[nodle]

You are correct and I apologize. I interpreted your post as suggesting that there were moves or options so good that they could be used successfully simply by spamming them, which is false. I now, upon re-reading, am interpreting your statement as "There will be cases in which a move is simply not worth choosing, or in which a move outclasses all others", which is true.

That said, I'm actually a bit curious about Shocking Skull Bash. While it lacks the obvious kill power of Heavy Skull Bash, I felt (from a brief match) like it could be harder to punish than the other two Skull Bash versions. Anyone have experience or thoughts on this?

IMO, It has too much end lag. Even if you score a hit, your opponents will often be able to punish you before you have control back.

 

[DunnoBro]

Shocking is a good move. Hold down after charging it facing the ledge and you have a HUGE lingering hitbox to catch 1-frames... Like, really easily.

...But HSB is a broken move lol

 

[NickRiddle]

Thank you. You have broken through to the bedrock of the debate. If we are going to convince people to use customs, we have to do more than repeatedly tell them "Customs are balancing", we need to show them that customs can work. We need to show them that customs can create a healthy and powered meta. But mostly, we need to show them that customs are fun....

The problem with that logic is you think anti-customs cares.
Are customs fun? They could be.
Are customs workable? Of course.
Can the customs meta be good? Obviously.
Do I want to run customs? No, and I play 2122 Small Brawler and I was winning against almost everybody down here for free.
Why? Because I don't want to, and I don't need logic to stick with my opinion.

 

[Raijinken]

I guess that's true. No justification necessary when you side with status quo.

Like arguing with a wall.

 

[nodle]

The problem with that logic is you think anti-customs cares.
Are customs fun? They could be.
Are customs workable? Of course.
Can the customs meta be good? Obviously.
Do I want to run customs? No, and I play 2122 Small Brawler and I was winning against almost everybody down here for free.
Why? Because I don't want to, and I don't need logic to stick with my opinion.

I'm not advocating forcing anyone to run customs. You can dislike customs all you want. But I want to use customs. I'm not a hardliner, I just think they're fun and add depth and balance to the game. Why not let customs be used in 2v2s and in friendly matches. Pair battles are typically seen as side events anyway. Let the customs crowd have a format for them. We shouldn't be forced into using defaults, anymore than you should be forced into using customs. Let us enjoy the game too.

 

[FallenHero]

The thing about customs is that even if it might be good for the meta, it won't be good for the competitive scene as a whole. Like I said before, the grind of collecting customs would be one of the biggest things keeping people from wanting to play the game competitively. Personally, I have things like school and playing other video games besides Smash and if customs were the meta and I didn't already have the 3DS version since the day it was released (still don't have all the customs, though I never really went out of my way to grind for customs unless it was for characters I used) I am pretty sure I wouldn't be the only one who would just pass on trying to get into the competitive scene. If all customs were unlocked from the start I would still be against customs, but maybe my mind could be changed much easier than it would with all the grinding involved. I highly doubt I am the only one who thinks this way.

To you guys who are pro customs here: In a world where customs are the meta for this game and you just got the game yesterday already wanting to get into the competitive scene, would you really want to bother grinding for what could end up being either a short or a very long amount of time (thanks to RNG) just to get all the custom moves?

I guess that's true. No justification necessary when you side with status quo.

Like arguing with a wall.

From seeing other people arguing against customs here, a lot of the responses they get make it look like arguing with some of you guys is like arguing with a wall. It isn't like the "status quo" really needs to be changed by customs, since it is already changing on it's own due to players discovering new things about the game and sharing it with others, and patches. My justification is that customs will ultimately stunt the competitive scene's growth and that whether or not customs will make the game more balanced, a lot of people (including me) just won't find playing against certain custom sets fun, even if they can be beaten and are not as unbalanced as some of us say. There are a lot of people who hate to play against or watch Rosalina. Whether or not she is a balanced character, there will be a lot of people don't enjoy playing against her or watching people play her. Outside of for glory I think she is the only character that a very large amount of people that dislike her, with customs on there are a lot more characters that people just don't like to play against or watch. If enough people find competitive Smash 4 with customs on to not be fun it will definitely effect the growth of the scene. With customs on the competitive scene is far more likely to die from a lack of people supporting than in vanilla.

 

[Raijinken]

Outside of for glory I think she is the only character that a very large amount of people that dislike her, with customs on there are a lot more characters that people just don't like to play against or watch.

Villager and Sonic. It's a playstyle stigma.

 

[SoniCraft]

The problem with that logic is you think anti-customs cares.
Are customs fun? They could be.
Are customs workable? Of course.
Can the customs meta be good? Obviously.
Do I want to run customs? No, and I play 2122 Small Brawler and I was winning against almost everybody down here for free.
Why? Because I don't want to, and I don't need logic to stick with my opinion.

Why would you bring up Miis in a customs on/off argument? Most people consider them a different issue entirely, so I don't get how your Mii Brawler anecdote reinforces your point at all regarding custom moves.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

@ FallenHero has a point. I've praised Smash 4 in the past for being a more accessible game than Melee, and the grind for customs does kind of take that and throw it off a cliff. I'm still hoping for the day Sakurai decides to ease the grind somewhat, either through a patch or a $5 "auto unlock all customs" code or a "Ultimate Smash 4" a year or so later that includes all dlc characters and customs unlocked. When that day comes, I will be 10000000% more of a customs zealout than I am now, and yall know how I feel about customs now.

Basically what I'm saying is that the grind is a legitimate concern. There are solutions to it, but these are community-based, not based in the game. Say I met someone who wanted to get into Sm4sh competitively and customs were the meta. I would solve the grind issue by transferring my set-up 3DS custom stuff to his Wii U. It would take time and preclude experimentation with **** he hasn't unlocked, but it's something. The grind can't be passed off as an illegitimate concern, but it's also one that would have a solution if customs were commonplace is what I'm saying.

As for Miis. I have the Project completely setup on my Wii U, and I hate the Miis. Why? Because I'm required to have 50 of them, all within the same character slot, and it's a mess. I can't just casually decide to play a Mii Swordfighter/Gunner (Brawler yes, because I like me some Medium Sized 2122) because when I'm frantically looking for them I don't want to also consider which set I want. It's a menu problem, yes, but there's no menu solution. I think that for the next iteration of the Project, the Mii Swordfighters and Gunners need to be reigned in somewhat. 18/19 sets is great in theory, but it just ***** over the menu and makes trying to play as one of them a nightmare. (Brawlers are fine, 12 sets is manageable, especially when 8 are Small and 4 are default)

 

[san.]

Why would you bring up Miis in a customs on/off argument? Most people consider them a different issue entirely, so I don't get how your Mii Brawler anecdote reinforces your point at all regarding custom moves.

Why? Because I don't want to, and I don't need logic to stick with my opinion.

Will probably just use this quote whenever.

 

[SpaghettiWeegee]

Grind notwithstanding, I actually really like customs in theory since one would assume having more options for character movesets would lead to greater creativity and diversity in the metagame, which is what I feel Smash (especially Smash 4) is all about. However, I abhor customs in practice because what inevitably happens is that after maybe a week or so of collective deliberation the community decides on an objective best loadout for customs and most (so, for spectators, effectively all) custom-users opt for that specific loadout. It's boring, dude. It's the same reason I audibly groan at the popularity of Shiek in the metagame-- there's little originality to it, which in my mind is the bread and butter of interesting-to-watch gameplay.

Probably more of a complaint about players than customs in a vacuum, however.

EDIT: This is more of a personal complaint, but I should also point out that customs being banned on For Glory also dampens my spirits about them since I use For Glory as part of my practice regimen due to not really having a nearby local scene apart from a circle of friends who play Smash. I can't practice with customs, nor can I practice against customs, so I'm more comfortable just ignoring them.

 

[PoptartLord]

In a world where customs are the meta for this game and you just got the game yesterday already wanting to get into the competitive scene, would you really want to bother grinding for what could end up being either a short or a very long amount of time (thanks to RNG) just to get all the custom moves?

Yes, I would do that. When I first got the game I wanted to get used to all the characters and start filling out the challenge board. There's a challenge "Complete True All-Star Mode on Hard with all characters", so after enough Smash matches to unlock all the characters it was off to All-Star mode. And some Events mixed in to prevent fatigue.

The point this little story is that my day 1 adventures unlocked some specials without me explicitly going for them. Sure, there were still a lot left after that, but knowing the mountain was passively partially climbed makes the rest of the journey not so bad. That and I know to mitigate fatigue by mixing up what I play (as above).

Like arguing with a wall.

I wouldn't be surprised if I'm seen one of those walls. I'm trying very hard to bring up certain viewpoints and explain them clearly and fully, but I'm always concerned that comes off as too adamant. In the background I'm always trying to make sure I keep to the context "in competition". If I haven't done so already I'm sure I'll posit the question "should competitions really cater to <thing just brought up>?" eventually. I can and have changed my opinions based on new information; this wall has doors!

I just think they ... add ... balance to the game.

Eh, I'm not too fond of arguing from that angle. At this point the burden of proof is now on you to prove the increased balance. I have no opinion on this matter; I don't see anything imbalanced enough in the full toolkits to warrant removing pieces, so I have spent no time comparing the relative balance of the two situations. That being said...

We shouldn't be forced into using defaults, anymore than you should be forced into using customs. Let us enjoy the game too.

...I like that sentiment. Why should people be forced to compete under rules that restrict valid toolkit options? [Under this context running 1111 is equally as valid as running 2233]

-PoptartLord

 

[nodle]

However, I abhor customs in practice because what inevitably happens is that after maybe a week or so of collective deliberation the community decides on an objective best loadout for customs and most (so, for spectators, effectively all) custom-users opt for that specific loadout.

There is truth to your statement, but there are important exceptions as well. For most move slots, there is an obvious best and the rest aren't worth bothering with. This best move is typically the default. But for every character I've seriously used customs with, there is always one or two slots that are tossups. Often I find myself switching back and forth between options depending on the matchup. For example, I am often switching between pikachus B1 and B2. Thunder jolt (B1) has less lag and more range which I find essential in some games. Thunder wave is obviously good thanks to followups through paralysis, but I don't think there is an objective best between them. I've also begun to experiment more seriously with down specials more. For a long time, I considered default Thunder to just be better than the other two, but I've been having a lot of success with DB2. Its basically thunder, if the bolt and cloud didn't exist. You get the hitbox around pikacha, and thats it. Used in the air, it sets up a lingering multi hit box (2-2-15) that floats in the air while you fall. Opponents can DI out of it, but if they do it has seemed easy to get follow ups. If they don't they pretty much just die (~>90%). The move comes at the cost of losing one of pikachu's best kill combos (though you get a straight kill move) and losing the ability to use the bolt portion of thunder to break your opponent out of their combos.