What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[Raijinken]

I'm still waiting for how DK depends on any move more than cargo throw into uair.

 

[SoniCraft]

I'm still wondering how characters being dependent on certain moves in order to become viable is a bad thing.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm still wondering how characters being dependent on certain moves in order to become viable is a bad thing.

Well, ideally a character gets some sort of use out of most if not all of their kit, so a character that relies solely on a single move to be viable is seen as...spammy? Dishonest? Not really viable, just <move> the character?

Although I do agree that it's better for a character to be viable solely due to a single move than it is for that same character to be not viable at all.

 

[wizrad]

*cough* Diddy's up air *cough*

 

[blackghost]

Well, ideally a character gets some sort of use out of most if not all of their kit, so a character that relies solely on a single move to be viable is seen as...spammy? Dishonest? Not really viable, just <move> the character?

Although I do agree that it's better for a character to be viable solely due to a single move than it is for that same character to be not viable at all.

NO character in smash gets use out of their entire kit. characters use their best options why some players act like they shouldn't is absurd. ganon along with other low tiers have less options than a high tier because they have less to use in thier kit. character like shiek and zss have a ridiculous increase in optoins on other characters. cusotm more give more characters good options its simple logic.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

NO character in smash gets use out of their entire kit. characters use their best options why some players act like they shouldn't is absurd. ganon along with other low tiers have less options than a high tier because they have less to use in thier kit. character like shiek and zss have a ridiculous increase in optoins on other characters. cusotm more give more characters good options its simple logic.

I said ideally, not that it actually happens.

Also you sort of agreed with me there that Sheik et al just have a lot more useful moves in general.

 

[SoniCraft]

*cough* Diddy's up air *cough*

Well to be fair, that was patched.

 

[Raijinken]

That's actually interesting to me. Perhaps it's just because I don't play at a top level, but I actually find that a lot of low-end characters have to depend more on proper use of their entire moveset for effectiveness. You get some oddballs like Sheik who use every move except... her forward and down smashes are rare I guess, but on, say, Marth, I at least use his entire moveset one way or another. Same for Ganondorf bar Warlock Punch (and even that I go for more than I should).

I haven't seen any custom character more single-move-focused than Sheik's reliance on Bouncing Fish, save the stalling-based strategies on Sonic and Villager. I see a lot of people try to be that way with Wonky Kong or whatnot, but even in cases like that, it's just bad play in the hopes that your opponent doesn't know how to handle the move.

 

[Rizen]

That's actually interesting to me. Perhaps it's just because I don't play at a top level, but I actually find that a lot of low-end characters have to depend more on proper use of their entire moveset for effectiveness.

I agree with this. Characters like Link have uses for every move (now that Dtilt has been patched to start combos at low %s).

 

[Megamang]

Better characters often have moves in certain MUs that are just that hard to deal with, that they can rely on them. Bad characters are relying on mixups because each move is punishable if predicted. Like fox can nairplane falcon to death in melee, but has to use it much more carefully against falco.

 

[SwordM13X24]

I play a lot of customs, but all my local friends and co. all have this stigma of that different moves are not worth it just because it's different. One example I had a Yoshi (I don't even play Yoshi) ditto with a friend (Yoshi is his secondary) that ran default and I ran 2222. Obviously Yoshi's 2222 set is vastly inferior to the default set, yet I still won 2-0 (3 stock game). My friend was horrify'd by how different the moves were (I spam'd a lot of Star Bombs to keep him off of me). I did my best to calm him down from his trauma that I inflict'd to him, but that didn't stop him from just spittin' out on that move annoys him a ton.

I would say it's just because of the long grindfest, inconvenient in-game menu for the moves, and just bein' different are the major factors that drive folks away from customs rather than to let them see a whole new world that opens up with customs.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Ignorance and kneejerk reactions are the biggest enemies of customs.
The grinding is a wall that some are willing to climb, and the result is worth it.

 

[Megamang]

Isnt there a way to get all the customs from the 3ds if someone else has them?

 

[SwordM13X24]

Isnt there a way to get all the customs from the 3ds if someone else has them?

Ya can only transfer SETS from a 3DS to a WiiU and vice versa, but not the moves themself.
Sadly, if there is a set on a 3DS or WiiU that wasn't from the owner, that set can not be transfer'd.
In the sense of moves bein' accessible for cross consoles, then both can access it with a lot of inconvenience.

-Edit: Ouch, got ninja'd.

 

[Raijinken]

Isnt there a way to get all the customs from the 3ds if someone else has them?

Transfers can be done from 3DS to U, or from U to 3DS, but only if the set being transferred was created on the host console. The transfer process does not unlock the moves, it only enables the set, which is locked from editing or recopying.

So basically, I, as a fully unlocked player on both consoles, can send any moveset combination from either system to another belonging to another player. But if my friends in Raleigh don't want to unlock the moves themselves, but DO want to try out a new moveset combination, one of us must visit the other for the transfer to take place.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

I know this isn't the best possible outcome for a customs meta, but I wonder if their application could be simplified/standardized to a certain degree. Like, every character has 10 slots for custom moves, right? What if they were all the same: For every character there would be 2111, 1211, 1121, 1112, 3111, 1311, 1131, 1113, 2222, and 3333. Or, to decrease the logistics/setup time issue, just 1111/2222/3333? Miis would obviously be the exception, and would either use a "guest miis only but free reign on moves" setup, or we could try to do the size recommendations from the Project on Wii U setups. Having miis made by the Wii Us is important because that way players would be able to alter the special moves on the fly. In a perfect world this means Miis would be identical to how they are now in customs. In addition, since Palutena's moves are all unlocked from the start, we could give her the same luxury.

For the rest of the cast, this would make the barrier to entry from the default meta significantly smaller, as players would only need to worry about one custom move at a time in 8/10 cases. And for a lot of characters, their favored sets would either remain or have to face only some slight alterations. Charizard's 1311, Ike's 2222, Sheik's 1211, Bowser's 1311 etc are all here and accounted for. In the case of my mains, Yoshi's current top 2 sets are 2111 and 3111, and Ganon's are 2121 and 2122, which would be altered into 1121 and 2222. Ike's probably the big winner, as his top custom set IS 2222. Ironically, DK also does well, as his top set is probably 3233, which isn't too far off from 3333.

It adds depth, if not as much as we'd like, and it would eliminate the need to update the Project except for maybe some mii size fluctuations.

This also, oddly enough, addresses one of the arguments against customs, that they make the top tiers more oppressive. Pikachu's Twave - Heavy Bash would be impossible for example, because Twave is neutral 2 and HSB is side special 3. Mario can't use Fastball and Gust cape together, and if he wants to use fastball and scalding fluud, he also has to run shocking cape and super jump. Rosaluma can't use Luma Warp and Shooting Star Bit at the same time, either. The one outlier is Villager, who actually gets all of Garden, EBT, and Timber Counter in his 2222 set, but also would have Liftoff Lloid in that set, and would be stuck with Garden.

I know it isn't optimal, but this might be a way to bring customs back to the main stage where they belong in a form that might be more palatable to the larger community. In addition, if this form of the customs meta becomes widespread, maybe interest would develop for "Free Customs" side events which would give characters free reign on customs. Thoughts?

 

[Megamang]

Unfortunately, such arbitrary ruling + random characters benefitting while others don't as much = unpopular tournament reception.


Before any customs idea is suggested, imagine telling an on-the-fence person about it. I can't see this having a positive reception.

The balancing aspect is nice, but again arbitrary. Why does Ike get a great custom set while pika cant be optimal; Ike has been doing fine in tournament...

 

[Raijinken]

I know this isn't the best possible outcome for a customs meta, but I wonder if their application could be simplified/standardized to a certain degree. Like, every character has 10 slots for custom moves, right? What if they were all the same: For every character there would be 2111, 1211, 1121, 1112, 3111, 1311, 1131, 1113, 2222, and 3333. Or, to decrease the logistics/setup time issue, just 1111/2222/3333? Miis would obviously be the exception, and would either use a "guest miis only but free reign on moves" setup, or we could try to do the size recommendations from the Project on Wii U setups. Having miis made by the Wii Us is important because that way players would be able to alter the special moves on the fly. In a perfect world this means Miis would be identical to how they are now in customs. In addition, since Palutena's moves are all unlocked from the start, we could give her the same luxury.

For the rest of the cast, this would make the barrier to entry from the default meta significantly smaller, as players would only need to worry about one custom move at a time in 8/10 cases. And for a lot of characters, their favored sets would either remain or have to face only some slight alterations. Charizard's 1311, Ike's 2222, Sheik's 1211, Bowser's 1311 etc are all here and accounted for. In the case of my mains, Yoshi's current top 2 sets are 2111 and 3111, and Ganon's are 2121 and 2122, which would be altered into 1121 and 2222. Ike's probably the big winner, as his top custom set IS 2222. Ironically, DK also does well, as his top set is probably 3233, which isn't too far off from 3333.

It adds depth, if not as much as we'd like, and it would eliminate the need to update the Project except for maybe some mii size fluctuations.

This also, oddly enough, addresses one of the arguments against customs, that they make the top tiers more oppressive. Pikachu's Twave - Heavy Bash would be impossible for example, because Twave is neutral 2 and HSB is side special 3. Mario can't use Fastball and Gust cape together, and if he wants to use fastball and scalding fluud, he also has to run shocking cape and super jump. Rosaluma can't use Luma Warp and Shooting Star Bit at the same time, either. The one outlier is Villager, who actually gets all of Garden, EBT, and Timber Counter in his 2222 set, but also would have Liftoff Lloid in that set, and would be stuck with Garden.

I know it isn't optimal, but this might be a way to bring customs back to the main stage where they belong in a form that might be more palatable to the larger community. In addition, if this form of the customs meta becomes widespread, maybe interest would develop for "Free Customs" side events which would give characters free reign on customs. Thoughts?

-sigh- This again?
It's a neutered version of running customs meant to appease complaints/johns about knowledge necessity and whatnot. It looks reasonable compared to some characters, like the ones you mentioned, but others?
Peach loses 2311 and 2211, which are 3rd and 2nd on her list.
Jr loses 1123, third on his list.
DK is stuck with armored headbut, which only exists in the 10th slot.
G&W loses all but one of his existing sets.
Zelda loses all of her sets.
Ganondorf is nearly required to uses 2222, losing his main anti-shield/chase starter option.
Palutena loses all of her sets.
Samus loses all but one set.
Marth loses 1123, his most popular (but not first-slot) set.
Ike's custom meta has expanded to the point where nearly all of his specials are considered useful, last I heard.
Duck Hunt loses most of his sets as well as the imperative choice of gunman with respect to can.
Kirby loses almost everything.
Dedede loses everything.
Fox loses everything, though recent changes at least make me think he'd be fine with 1131.

I'm tired of listing characters, but that's the trend of it. Meanwhile, Rosalina still gets Shooting Star Bit (more important than Warp by a long shot), Sheik has either Gravity Grenade or Piercing Needles, both of which give her a situational boost and neither of which needs the other. Mario can run Fast Fireball or Exploding Punch without missing Gust Cape or the alternate FLUDDs. Diddy, Ness, Captain Falcon, Wario, Luigi, and Meta Knight retain their preferred options (if any).

If anything, this more enforces the status quo than regular customs implementation, and keeps out the potential for higher variety, without solving the unlock or setup time logistics.

It basically skips the depth, discussion, and voting to pick which slots make it into the sets for massive tournaments with logistics issues, to cater to johns, and I can't personally agree with that.

 

[Owlflame]

Are custom moves still in tournaments? Or not. Zero said they're a "thing of the past"

 

[Raijinken]

Basically all major tournaments in the US have dropped them. Some smaller tournaments still run them, depends on the area. I hear reports that parts of Europe still run them, but I don't know that for sure.

If you like 'em, though, by all means join us in the existing threads to discuss their benefits, or hop into the character threads to discuss their applications!

 

[MrGame&Rock]

snip

Yeah, fair points. I knew from the outset that this wasn't optimal, but I'm also in a region in which customs are rejected, and I'll tale what I can get. I'm going in from the mindset of: we're going in a direction in which, like it or not, I highly doubt we'll get customs the way we want them. And should it come down to a simplified version or nothing at all, I'd rather have the simplified version

 

[Raijinken]

Yeah, fair points. I knew from the outset that this wasn't optimal, but I'm also in a region in which customs are rejected, and I'll tale what I can get. I'm going in from the mindset of: we're going in a direction in which, like it or not, I highly doubt we'll get customs the way we want them. And should it come down to a simplified version or nothing at all, I'd rather have the simplified version

I agree on that point, and similarly, I'd take this if it was between this and nothing.

But I'd rather make sure the real battle is lost before picking a compromise.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

I agree on that point, and similarly, I'd take this if it was between this and nothing.

But I'd rather make sure the real battle is lost before picking a compromise.

As far as my local scene goes, the battle IS lost. Not to mention Paragon didn't use customs and I highly doubt most majors will again because of the outcry. Every time a tournament character select screen has the orange background over blue it hurts me, but I've been seeing barely any blue.

And this would suck for me bc I spent a ton of time setting up everything for the Project on my 3DS and Wii U and would have to do it all over again

 

[Raijinken]

As far as my local scene goes, the battle IS lost. Not to mention Paragon didn't use customs and I highly doubt most majors will again because of the outcry. Every time a tournament character select screen has the orange background over blue it hurts me, but I've been seeing barely any blue.

And this would suck for me bc I spent a ton of time setting up everything for the Project on my 3DS and Wii U and would have to do it all over again

Know that feeling. Unlocked both systems, practice customs all the time, and the best I can tell, there's one customs-on 12-person tournament in my state, four hours away.
If only this country wasn't so huge, we could actually form customs scenes from the scattered supporters.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Know that feeling. Unlocked both systems, practice customs all the time, and the best I can tell, there's one customs-on 12-person tournament in my state, four hours away.
If only this country wasn't so huge so we could actually form customs scenes from the scattered supporters.

There's wifi, but there's also equipment and lag so

 

[Raijinken]

There's wifi, but there's also equipment and lag so

I can get pretty decent matches with some friends in the same state, but the US's internet infrastructure is too poor to really handle a long-range tournament at competably-reasonable low-levels of ping. Which is a shame.

 

[PoptartLord]

I play a lot of customs, but all my local friends and co. all have this stigma of that different moves are not worth it just because it's different. One example I had a Yoshi (I don't even play Yoshi) ditto with a friend (Yoshi is his secondary) that ran default and I ran 2222. Obviously Yoshi's 2222 set is vastly inferior to the default set, yet I still won 2-0 (3 stock game). My friend was horrify'd by how different the moves were (I spam'd a lot of Star Bombs) to keep him off of me. I did my best to calm him down from his trauma that I inflict'd to him, but that didn't stop him from just spittin' out on that move annoys him a ton.

I like this story; the guy loses to something he sees for the first time and, instead of going with a proper response like "ok, how do I beat that?", he complains about the different move. It's sad how common that reaction is [semi-assumption, but from what I've been reading/hearing...]. And I'm not just talking about immediately afterwords, but also way later when people have had days to cool off and think about it. How people think that mindset is acceptable when discussing anything competitive is beyond me.

But maybe I'm biased. ...scratch that, I definitely *am* biased. But to me, the word "competitive" demands a higher standard. If you're going to play a game competitively, play the whole game competitively. From there you take away elements that detract from the skill vs. skill nature of competition, and only such elements. Lame excuses like "I don't want to learn <element>", "I don't want to bother unlocking <element>", "<element> is *jank", and "I just don't like <element>" are completely unacceptable in the context of "competitive".

* not to be confused with "not balanced"

I would say it's just because of the long grindfest, inconvenient in-game menu for the moves, and just bein' different are the major factors that drive folks away from customs rather than to let them see a whole new world that opens up with customs.

All of this, yes [except for "a whole new world", but that's hyperbole]. I secretly have a bet with myself that, on the one year anniversary of the game's release, the UI will be updated to include a Specials selection menu at the press of a button (it shows up over the character picture like the tag selection list). Why the delay? Because that's enough time for the newer players to catch up to the older players in terms of unlocking -> familiarity.

-PoptartLord

 

[Ansou]

I would say that we're currently in a state where they are not being used that much, but discussions are going on. I'm trying to convince the rest of Sweden to allow them, but most people here are filled with bias but no sound reason. Like some people are literally arguing that "I'm a casual player and I feel like it's too much if I have to learn customs"... The arguments I'm getting are mostly that it's up to preference if they should be allowed or not and that it's not an objective matter. And the TO of BEAST only cares about majority opinion.

Anyway, customs are not completely dead. We use them here in Stockholm, but only on half of our tourneys because players want to know the customs off meta as well to prepare for the major tourneys that don't allow them...

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm still wondering how characters being dependent on certain moves in order to become viable is a bad thing.

Because fighting the Ice Climbers was ever fun...

That, and there's a difference between important moves and overcentralizing moves. Monado Arts are important, but literally do no damage themselves. Shulk would be a worse Ike without them. But then IC's grabs would be overcentralizing because that's almost literally the only thing they need.

Both balancing the game to the character and the character's moves to the other moves are important for fighting games and any other game. Take Kingdom Hearts as an example. KHDDD wasn't completely braindead most of the time, but the spells you should bring are limited to cure and balloon, whereas there's about a hundred in the entire game. There's no depth of choice whatsoever, and since cure and balloon are easy to get, you can use them throughout the entire game. But then in KH2FM, no single spell, power, or ability would win every fight for you. Every fight had an optimal strategy, but each strategy was radically different to the point where there's little overlap. Even the best spell in the game, reflectga, couldn't win fights for you and it's a very late-game spell.

In KH, KH2FM is regarded as the undisputed best game in the series. KHDDD is merely so-so. Take away the concept of "X is a better character" and people will flock to what has more depth and express distaste for things that lack it. If Shiek weren't good I doubt anybody would call her fun to play as. Then there's characters like Mario and Pit who use the majority of their movesets and I don't see anybody saying they need giant nerfs or are unfun at all.

 

[DunnoBro]

I'd rather be neutered than euthanized just saying

 

[LancerStaff]

I'd rather be neutered than euthanized just saying

I know it's some silly Duck Hunt joke but I don't get how it relates to the topic.

 

[DunnoBro]

I know it's some silly Duck Hunt joke but I don't get how it relates to the topic.

Was in response to this:

It's a neutered version of running customs

That said yea 1-custom per char actually fits the label of "helping already good characters" way more than all customs cause top tiers usually only have 1 custom they want to use. Whereas the bad chars that need total rehauls don't get the gap closed nearly enough to help.

I'd play 1-custom but I think it's way worse than either default or all customs.

 

[Raijinken]

Because fighting the Ice Climbers was ever fun...

That, and there's a difference between important moves and overcentralizing moves. Monado Arts are important, but literally do no damage themselves. Shulk would be a worse Ike without them. But then IC's grabs would be overcentralizing because that's almost literally the only thing they need.

Both balancing the game to the character and the character's moves to the other moves are important for fighting games and any other game. Take Kingdom Hearts as an example. KHDDD wasn't completely braindead most of the time, but the spells you should bring are limited to cure and balloon, whereas there's about a hundred in the entire game. There's no depth of choice whatsoever, and since cure and balloon are easy to get, you can use them throughout the entire game. But then in KH2FM, no single spell, power, or ability would win every fight for you. Every fight had an optimal strategy, but each strategy was radically different to the point where there's little overlap. Even the best spell in the game, reflectga, couldn't win fights for you and it's a very late-game spell.

In KH, KH2FM is regarded as the undisputed best game in the series. KHDDD is merely so-so. Take away the concept of "X is a better character" and people will flock to what has more depth and express distaste for things that lack it. If Shiek weren't good I doubt anybody would call her fun to play as. Then there's characters like Mario and Pit who use the majority of their movesets and I don't see anybody saying they need giant nerfs or are unfun at all.

Did Final Mix fix the issue where the game boiled down to mashing triangle to win fights? (I jest somewhat. I enjoyed KH2, but it's not a game I would praise for depth of combat.)

Either way, it's strange that this is brought up, because in some ways, it directly counters other anti-customs arguments. People complain about Heavy Skull Bash, but how often do you see a Pikachu use regular Skull Bash? Little Mac may scarcely benefit from Flaming Lunge, but even its recovery mixup option is more use than the regular one sees. Falcon Dash Punch is in a similar boat. Obviously there are, and will be, moves that don't see any use, default or custom. But not only will enabling them give us the option to find out which are really which, it still lets a lot of characters replace a bad move with a better one. And for characters like Ganondorf where half his specials are only for reads, and one is only for recovery, that increased moveset validity increases the fun as it increases the viability.

And I'm still convinced that there is not a character who can win by spamming a single move, unless that character is Sheik with Fair, and even that's a stretch.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

The only way I see customs working out is to make a brand new limited selection of movesets, like Ampharos's, that excludes the moves a majority agrees as being problematic.

The "all-or-nothing" paradigm has to die sooner rather than later, because progress won't be made without compromise. Arbitrary restrictions like having 1 custom move per character are also meaningless and will get us nowhere. We have to reach a significant majority vote, or it will turn into a scenario where, coupled with the anti-customs crowd, the majority of Smashers are against what gets implemented. This isn't a presidential election, so let's try to preserve some facsimile of good sense.

For this conversation to become productive, we have to first agree on what custom moves are controversial and why. To that end, I propose we arrange for some of the high-level players and experienced community organizers to chime in on what moves, specifically, are causing the backlash against customs in general--both from the player and community perspectives.

@Mew2King @AllyKnight @Dabuz @ChileZeRo @DEHF @-6WX- @Mr-R @NickRiddle @Rayquaza07 @mrconcon @MVD @Nairo @GimR @FOW

 

[Raijinken]

The only way I see customs working out is to make a brand new limited selection of movesets, like Ampharos's, that excludes the moves a majority agrees as being problematic.

The "all-or-nothing" paradigm has to die sooner rather than later, because progress won't be made without compromise. Arbitrary restrictions like having 1 custom move per character are also meaningless and will get us nowhere. We have to reach a significant majority vote, or it will turn into a scenario where, coupled with the anti-customs crowd, the majority of Smashers are against what gets implemented. This isn't a presidential election, so let's try to preserve some facsimile of good sense.

For this conversation to become productive, we have to first agree on what custom moves are controversial and why. To that end, I propose we arrange for some of the high-level players and experienced community organizers to chime in on what moves, specifically, are causing the backlash against customs in general--both from the player and community perspectives.

@Mew2King @AllyKnight @Dabuz @ChileZeRo @DEHF @-6WX- @Mr-R @NickRiddle @Rayquaza07 @mrconcon @MVD @Nairo @GimR @FOW

Does the majority count if they don't know what they're talking about? Because I still see people complaining about Kong Cyclone.

I agree, we need to revise the moveset project. And I agree, if something is actually an issue, we should and can ban it. But I don't feel comfortable trusting balancing the system to the majority when the apparent majority oppose the system entirely.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

The "apparent majority" continues to vote in favor of customs according to every poll I've seen. The reason customs aren't the norm, outside of their more rigorous preparation requirements, is little to do with the majority opinions. It's almost entirely to do with the higher-level players rejecting customs outright and their votes counting for more. That's both natural and, to be honest, wiser on the part of TOs than the alternative.

In order for this conversation to be useful, it needs to be extended beyond the reach of the consenting majority and made accessible to its vocal opponents. They're the ones running the show right now.

 

[nodle]

The "apparent majority" continues to vote in favor of customs according to every poll I've seen. The reason customs aren't the norm, outside of their more rigorous preparation requirements, is little to do with the majority opinions. It's almost entirely to do with the higher-level players rejecting customs outright and their votes counting for more. That's both natural and, to be honest, wiser on the part of TOs than the alternative.

In order for this conversation to be useful, it needs to be extended beyond the reach of the consenting majority and made accessible to its vocal opponents. They're the ones running the show right now.

Then lets just find a new show. High level tournament players don't like customs. It doesn't really matter why, as long as they are emotional about customs, they will never be convinced to accept them. I think our best strategy going forward is to focus on non-1v1 tournaments. Lets try to get customs accepted in 2v2 tournaments. Once we have shown success with customs in 2v2, we can come back to the question of using customs in 1v1 tournaments.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Then lets just find a new show. High level tournament players don't like customs. It doesn't really matter why, as long as they are emotional about customs, they will never be convinced to accept them. I think our best strategy going forward is to focus on non-1v1 tournaments. Lets try to get customs accepted in 2v2 tournaments. Once we have shown success with customs in 2v2, we can come back to the question of using customs in 1v1 tournaments.

Coming back to 1v1s will be meaningless without first solving the reason they never worked in the first place.

But by all means, branch from this project into new directions. Any form of movement is progress at this stage.

 

[nodle]

Coming back to 1v1s will be meaningless without first solving the reason they never worked in the first place.

But by all means, branch from this project into new directions. Any form of movement is progress at this stage.

The reason they never worked in the first place is obvious and intractible.

as long as they are emotional about customs, they will never be convinced to accept them.

Until we can actually show them how a customs meta can work, how can you expect them to open their minds to the possibilities of customs. Its a very simple chicken vs egg dilemma. Customs can't become accepted until they are shown to work competitively, they can't be shown to work competitively until they are accepted enough to be used. We're going to have to find a new chicken that can actually be convinced that customs are worth trying. I'm hoping the 2v2 scene can fill that purpose.

 

[SoniCraft]

The reason they never worked in the first place is obvious and intractible.

Until we can actually show them how a customs meta can work, how can you expect them to open their minds to the possibilities of customs. Its a very simple chicken vs egg dilemma. Customs can't become accepted until they are shown to work competitively, they can't be shown to work competitively until they are accepted enough to be used. We're going to have to find a new chicken that can actually be convinced that customs are worth trying. I'm hoping the 2v2 scene can fill that purpose.

You know, this actually might be a pretty good idea. They already increase the stock count for doubles, so why not allow a bunch of cool moves into the mix? All the "stupid" ones wouldn't be as effective, and the ones that make characters viable can still perform their purpose! Do you really think it could happen?