What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[Rizen]

Bad characters placed well in brawl too, see San's Ike.

Customs change MUs all around, for the better or worse. How they effect characters that are still non-viable shouldn't be a major concern. If they make too many characters that were once viable, now not... That would be.

But Zelda going from 8th worst to 3rd isn't exactly ringing any alarms to me

The point being that MUs getting more polarized with customs means worse balance. Any character who rises does so on the downfall of another character and someone will always end up best or worst. Customs widen the gap is what I'm saying.

 

[DunnoBro]

Any character who rises does so on the downfall of another character and someone will always end up best or worst. Customs widen the gap is what I'm saying.

By that logic, balance patches mean worse balance lol

 

[Rizen]

By that logic, balance patches mean worse balance lol

This makes no sense.
What I'm saying is the gap between characters is smaller even if their are best and worst and that's better balance. The gap between Ganon and MK in Brawl was huge. The MU chart for bad characters was littered with -3, -4 MUs. In SSB4 Sheik isn't as far above the cast as Brawl MK was and the worst character isn't as far below. SSB4 bad MUs usually mean -2 with rare -3s.

 

[DunnoBro]

This makes no sense.
What I'm saying is the gap between characters is smaller even if their are best and worst and that's better balance. The gap between Ganon and MK in Brawl was huge and littered with +/-4 MUs. In SSB4 Sheik isn't as far above the cast as Brawl MK was and the worst character isn't as far below. SSB4 bad MUs usually mean -2.

You're insinuating that the gap between DK and Zelda widening means less balance, but only in the context of customs causing it.

I'm telling you that the balance patch that gave him the Ding Dong combo did the exact same thing. So by your logic, this means the balance patch brought imbalance.

But balance isn't determined by how the worst character stacks up against high tiers, it's how the best characters stack up against everyone else. DK can now actually contend with sheik. Just as characters like Ganon, and WFT can with customs.

 

[Rizen]

You're insinuating that the gap between DK and Zelda widening means less balance, but only in the context of customs causing it.

I'm telling you that the balance patch that gave him the Ding Dong combo did the exact same thing. So by your logic, this means the balance patch brought imbalance.

But balance isn't determined by how the worst character stacks up against high tiers, it's how the best characters stack up against everyone else. DK can now actually contend with sheik. Just as characters like Ganon, and WFT can with customs.

First of all one example doesn't mean the overall balance from patches is worse. In general top characters got less jank and bad characters got needed buffs. Why are we even talking about patches?

Balance is how good or bad MUs are, which means bad MUs shouldn't be polarized. When DK moves up, Zelda moves down. All you're showing is characters who benefit from customs can compete better. But many characters don't benefit and they have an even harder time.

It's not just about the top character MU; it's about every MU. Polarizing MUs can seriously invalidate a character. Take Wolf in brawl, he had a -1 vs MK (the undisputed best) but a -3 vs DDD, who wasn't that great a character. That's bad balance.

 

[DunnoBro]

First of all one example doesn't mean the overall balance from patches is worse. In general top characters got less jank and bad characters got needed buffs. Why are we even talking about patches?

I never said the balance from patches is worse. I'm trying to convey the flaw in your logic though it seems I failed to do so.

Balance is how far apart the tiers are, which means bad MUs shouldn't be polarized. When DK moves up, Zelda moves down. All you're showing is characters who benefit from customs can compete better. But many characters don't benefit and they have an even harder time.

Let me try one step at a time then.

Do you think DK becoming a better character than Zelda by way of patches or customs is imbalance? If so, specify.

 

[Rizen]

Let me try one step at a time then.

Do you think DK becoming a better character than Zelda by way of patches or customs is imbalance? If so, specify.

DK and Zelda were simply an example. My point was MUs that are bad get worse with customs.

 

[DunnoBro]

DK and Zelda were simply an example. My point was MUs that are bad get worse with customs.

Answer the question please. Because bad MUs get worse with patches, too.

 

[Rizen]

Answer the question please. Because MUs get worse with patches, too.

Your question makes no sense DK is already better than Zelda and if DK gets buffs but Zelda doesn't Zelda's MU vs him is worse. My point is not about characters getting bad MUs but that MUs ratios will stretch farther apart. -2 MUs will become -3s for characters who didn't get custom buffs. And the custom moves don't buff characters in a balanced way. Some bad characters get no buffs and some great characters get further buffs. Balance patches don't buff the best characters, they buff the characters who need them. Unlike customs.

 

[DunnoBro]

Your question makes no sense DK is already better than Zelda and if DK gets buffs but Zelda doesn't Zelda's MU vs him is worse.

Okay, let me rephrase the question then.

Do you think DK's MU vs Zelda becoming even better via patches is imbalance?

Balance patches don't buff the best characters, they buff the characters who need them. Unlike customs.

No characters that need buffs get customs that help them significantly? Not a single one?

 

[Rizen]

We're tripping over our feet with this. Let me start over.
Customs do not buff characters in a balanced way. Some characters who need buffs get them, some characters who were already top tier get buffed and some characters who need buffs don't get them. They don't fix the balance so much as randomly stir it up.

I've got to go. I'll continue later.

 

[DunnoBro]

Well like I said before, I don't necessarily disagree overall I was just pointing out your earlier reasoning was very flawed.

 

[Magik0722]

Well you are stuck on single characters, yes some already low tier characters that dont gain much from customs will be worse of relatively but with customs on there is a much larger mid tier than there is in vanilla. I'm not talking about the theory of customs but the real actual game itself with customs on or off. You can argue that customs stir up randomly in theory since they do randomly buff characters, but after all of them are applied it still leads to a larger mid tier in the real meta.

 

[Raijinken]

We're tripping over our feet with this. Let me start over.
Customs do not buff characters in a balanced way. Some characters who need buffs get them, some characters who were already top tier get buffed and some characters who need buffs don't get them. They don't fix the balance so much as randomly stir it up.

I've got to go. I'll continue later.

The metagames are quite resultingly distinct. I posted in my random theorydraft wannabe-blog that customs on vs customs off isn't comparing apples and apples (like balance patches are, in essence), but is more like comparing apples and pears. Until such a time that we can objectively quantify certain matchups as having finite defined metrics of "better" and "worse" comparing customs on and off, and then compare the two sum values, the result of customs is not better or worse balance, but merely different balance. It's like how comparing Brawl Zamus to Smash4 Zamus, where a lot of her traits were numerically nerfed yet she is a top-five character due to other changes not covered numerically.

This altered meta may be more polar (bad matchups could become worse), but especially with how few characters actually depend on their specials for their tier placement, I find it hard to believe (and entirely unsubstantiated) that we can make this claim objectively, when the analysis of customs still contains so much "Kong Cyclone Is Jank" and "Defensive play is bad so customs are bad because Villager can be more defensive." Our data integrity is low, and the good data (i.e. that provided by DunnoBro and other actual active/involved customs players) is perpetually out-shouted by people who can't handle a windbox.



Also regular Copter Kong is amazing grounded, a trait Kong Cyclone utterly lacks.

 

[nodle]

Customs will make bad MUs worse.

we have no evidence to suggest that your claim is true. We don't even have well justified theory suggesting that it is true. Please justify your claims. Don't bother trying to justify it with anecdotes either as I would then just cite examples of matchups becoming less biased with customs on, and are discussion would move no where.

^This is exactly why I value pro players' opinions over just anyone. I completely understand the 'with 3 sets, 1 is bound to be better' theory but it's flawed in practice. Let me put it this way:

You don't understand the argument. Please read all of Thinkaman's post. If you still don't understand the argument, I will do my best to explain it to you in simpler terms.

 

[Rizen]

This altered meta may be more polar (bad matchups could become worse), but especially with how few characters actually depend on their specials for their tier placement,

A problem I have with customs is the way they buff characters (and other things). It's not like the balance patches where characters get 3 frames less lag on dash attack. The character is the same aside from gaining a powerful exploit. Like Wii Fit trainer going from one of the perceived weakest
http://smashboards.com/threads/viability-survey-v1-competitive-impressions.410551/
to winning several top 32 places at Evo. WFT was carried by the custom special moves. Jumbo hoops and sweeping saturation are really good. Customs don't buff characters in balanced ways but instead give them powerful specials to rely on. I mean you're right about the apples vs pears comparison but I'd rather have characters be ranked on their fundamentals than how exploitable their customs are. I'm fine with custom side events but don't want them to be the norm.
I've used this example before but in Brawl DDD's crazy grab and chain grab invalidated several characters even though DDD wasn't that good. Not just bad characters but borderlines like Wolf. I really don't want characters to be good just because they have exploits like this.

Well like I said before, I don't necessarily disagree overall I was just pointing out your earlier reasoning was very flawed.

I get what you're saying but I didn't mean look at only Zelda vs DK in a void. They were simply one example. Of course it's about more than the difference between 2 characters.

 

[SoniCraft]

A problem I have with customs is the way they buff characters (and other things). It's not like the balance patches where characters get 3 frames less lag on dash attack. The character is the same aside from gaining a powerful exploit. Like Wii Fit trainer going from one of the perceived weakest
http://smashboards.com/threads/viability-survey-v1-competitive-impressions.410551/
to winning several top 32 places at Evo. WFT was carried by the custom special moves. Jumbo hoops and sweeping saturation are really good. Customs don't buff characters in balanced ways but instead give them powerful specials to rely on. I mean you're right about the apples vs pears comparison but I'd rather have characters be ranked on their fundamentals than how exploitable their customs are. I'm fine with custom side events but don't want them to be the norm.
I've used this example before but in Brawl DDD's crazy grab and chain grab invalidated several characters even though DDD wasn't that good. Not just bad characters but borderlines like Wolf. I really don't want characters to be good just because they have exploits like this.


I get what you're saying but I didn't mean look at only Zelda vs DK in a void. They were simply one example. Of course it's about more than the difference between 2 characters.

Would you say that Bouncing Fish and Needles are exploitable special moves that carry Sheik? If so, what gives Sheik the right to have exploitable moves but not Wii Fit Trainer?

 

[nodle]

A problem I have with customs is the way they buff characters (and other things). It's not like the balance patches where characters get 3 frames less lag on dash attack. The character is the same aside from gaining a powerful exploit. Like Wii Fit trainer going from one of the perceived weakest
http://smashboards.com/threads/viability-survey-v1-competitive-impressions.410551/
to winning several top 32 places at Evo. WFT was carried by the custom special moves. Jumbo hoops and sweeping saturation are really good. Customs don't buff characters in balanced ways but instead give them powerful specials to rely on. I mean you're right about the apples vs pears comparison but I'd rather have characters be ranked on their fundamentals than how exploitable their customs are. I'm fine with custom side events but don't want them to be the norm.
I've used this example before but in Brawl DDD's crazy grab and chain grab invalidated several characters even though DDD wasn't that good. Not just bad characters but borderlines like Wolf. I really don't want characters to be good just because they have exploits like this.

So customs make a trash, unplayable character viable and your response is "More viable characters is unfair." This logic really confuses me. WFT is a perfect example of a character that moved up the rankings with no one moving out. WFT caught up to the rest of the characters. No (viable) characters were made worse by the addition of WFT's customs.

Honestly, how can you consider any of WFT's customs to be exploits? They all seem like the basic add a drawback+advantage strategy of most customs. None of them seem at all broken to me.

Even if Jumbo hoops is an exploit (it isn't) why does that matter. Literally all of competitve melee was geared around players using exploits.

 

[Teshie U]

I think WFT was simply underrated. I saw one of those top WFT play and he didnt really use his customs much during the match he won in top 32, so it wasnt even nearly abuse.

 

[PoptartLord]

Time to enter the fray! To answer the OP's question:
Pre-EVO: For
Post-EVO: For

The way I see it, the game designers have decided to expand the characters' movesets by means of these alternate specials. Not seeing them as a core part of the character just because they need to be unlocked is exceedingly... silly. This is a game. Having to unlock parts of the moveset is common in games. Granted, not so much in traditional fighters, but the Smash series is far from standard.

That being said I'm not just giving them a free pass. If something is legitimately broken I'm all for getting rid of it. So far I've only seen two things - glitches [Wuhu Island boat, pikmin amplification] and infinites. I think Captain Falcon still has a down-b infinite (let me know if it's been fixed without me noticing), but the rest have been patched out already. There are no remaining specials that I've seen, read about, or experienced that I feel are broken. Throw me your windbox DKs, your stall Villagers, and flavors of the month - I'll take them on with victory and without complaint. ...if not immediate victory then practice -> eventual victory, same as literally every other matchup.

Bringing this back to EVO, it went as I thought it would. Players that relied on overusing alternate specials and their opponent's inexperience without having the skill to back it up lost in pools. Those with skill backing it up made it far. "So then what's the point of bothering to allow them?", you ask? Simple: people got to play using their whole character, not just most of their character.

One last quick point - the only valid anti-arguments are logistics based, and even those have a variety of solutions available. I'm not opposed to there being more valid arguments, I just haven't seen any yet.

I'm sure I'll get into it in more detail later on in this thread, but this is enough for one post. Until next time.

-PoptartLord

 

[Raijinken]

Jumbo Hoops trades away her otherwise awesome below-stage spike game due to its reduced vertical. It, like Cyclone, is also entertainingly shieldable.

 

[Runic_SSB]

@ Rizen brings up a good point; all of the characters who would become significantly better through customs will be almost entirely dependent on their special moves. This is part of the reason why a lot of people didn't like Brawl, which is that a lot of characters were primarily based around a single option. Regardless of whether or not it's more balanced, it's a meta that a lot of people (myself included) simply do not want to play in.

I've used this example before but in Brawl DDD's crazy grab and chain grab invalidated several characters even though DDD wasn't that good. Not just bad characters but borderlines like Wolf. I really don't want characters to be good just because they have exploits like this.

Dedede had a lot of great tools at his disposal, and his chain grab wasn't really that good (his bair was definitely his best move), the main reason being that he can't actually do it against most of the viable cast. It's impossible on MK, Olimar, Falco, Pikachu and ZSS, and extremely unlikely against ICs and Diddy (for obvious reasons). That only leaves Snake and Marth, and even with Snake you have to worry about grenades and mines.

His main strengths come from his keep-away game, movepool (pretty much everything but his smashes, dash attack, jab, up throw and down b are great), recovery, survivability (having both of those in a single character is very rare), offstage game, variety of kill options, and even without the chain grab his grab game is excellent (extremely good range, down throw is still great for setting up tech chases if you can't regrab, and back & forward throws are a good way to get opponents offstage).

It is true, though, that his chain grab is devastating to mid/low tier characters, but that really doesn't mean anything when fighting actually good characters. Dedede is what I like to call a low tier villain; he's disproportionately powerful against characters weaker than himself, but against viable characters he doesn't do well (the top 4 counter him and the top 2 HARD counter him).

 

[nodle]

@ Rizen brings up a good point; all of the characters who would become significantly better through customs will be almost entirely dependent on their special moves. This is part of the reason why a lot of people didn't like Brawl, which is that a lot of characters were primarily based around a single option. Regardless of whether or not it's more balanced, it's a meta that a lot of people (myself included) simply do not want to play in.

I don't understand your argument. Why can't a character be dependent on their specials. Shiek gets most of her kills from upB and bouncing fish. Pikachu would be crap without quick attack. Luigi's specials make the character. Knock out any of his B moves and he would easily drop a tier. I don't see why we should be resistant to characters having good specials.

 

[Rizen]

Would you say that Bouncing Fish and Needles are exploitable special moves that carry Sheik? If so, what gives Sheik the right to have exploitable moves but not Wii Fit Trainer?

Needles and BF are good but Sheik is an all around great character. Her frame data is very quick, her disjoints are surprisingly good *coughFaircough*, her recovery is top tier, she doesn't have to commit when zoning and is very hard to punish.

 

[Runic_SSB]

I don't understand your argument.

Maybe actually try to understand it before making a post? It's not hard, it is literally right here:

Regardless of whether or not it's more balanced, it's a meta that a lot of people (myself included) simply do not want to play in.

Simply put, people don't like it. And if people don't like it, they won't have any motivation to practice every day to be as good at it as possible so they can play it at tournaments every weekend. Which, obviously, benefits no one.

And my preemptive response to the inevitable "but X also fits the description, should we get rid of that, too?" is that the game gives us the option to turn this off. The issues that arise from this have an extremely simple in-game fix, but the logistics of getting 100% the community to agree to ban an entire character are infinitely more complicated (we tried this twice with MK and it didn't work). Actually we don't even have to turn it off, it's the default setting.

 

[blackghost]

^You put my name in that quote but nodle said it.

^This is exactly why I value pro players' opinions over just anyone. I completely understand the 'with 3 sets, 1 is bound to be better' theory but it's flawed in practice. Let me put it this way:

Not all customs are equal. The higher the number the better a custom is.
DK's wind upB = 9, it's really good.
Zelda's everything gets no higher than her standard moves because her customs are crud. 2 tops. The gap between DK and Zelda widens for a more polarized MU.

DK just gained a huge advantage and Zelda got the raw deal. Not all characters benefit from customs and many that do are top tier anyway. This is buffing already top tier characters like Rosalina and Pikachu (meaning characters who don't get custom buffs or minor buffs have an even worse MU vs them). The tiers get mixed up a bit from default but the cream always rises to the top leaving the rest with coffee grounds.

Plus what matters is how custom moves are exploited. DK can upB to safely counter most moves and bad characters don't have a good answer to it. DK becomes 'upB the character' because it's better than solid fundamentals. Matches go like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yynXqx03VY

This argument drives me insane. In default then using your logic everyone not shiek, zss, pikachu, luigi, mario, or fox. No one is arguing that custom moves on makes everyone better.
"dk becomes up the character" i'm entirely SICK of hearing that. ZSS is up b the character, shiek is down b the character but you'll NEVER hear them described like that. Your fear of DK cyclone is as of now not rational. ZERO dk in top 32 evo. it isnt hard to fight against if you actually try to learn.
And for the record zelda would need palutena quality customs to fight most of the cast. Her entire moveset is trash that isnt custom fault, trash custom moves cannot fix a bad base. Also rosalina players dont even agree on if her custom moves are upgrades or not. the fear of pikachu is really funny considering there is only one player. You are acting like custom move improvments for a character is somehow unfair but buffs and nerfs are fair when they essentially cause the same end resut. in some cases the buffs have had mre impact that custom mves have.
Also outside of zelda name another character that gets nothing form custom moves? the point is to increase characters options yu can't know where that will ead matchups no one can.

 

[ぱみゅ]

To me, it's a good tradeoff that two or three characters become worse in Customs if like 10 become not only good, but viable (I've been using that word a lot here lately).

 

[Runic_SSB]

I've been seeing a lot of the "we already have characters that are entirely based around one or two moves, so why not add more?" argument lately. And even though the answer to that question is incredibly simple and obvious and I shouldn't need to explain it, I guess I really have no choice.

If you are asking this, then you have already identified that a lot of people do not like this type of character. Then, what gives you the idea that people are fine with the characters that are like that by default? Simply put; they're not. The difference is that there is nothing we can do about default Quick-Attack and the like (except for complain to Sakurai), but the otherwise mediocre characters that become entirely dependent on spamming OP customs can easily be shut off. Adding in several more characters that people already don't like in the interest of "fairness" and "balance" will solve absolutely nothing and just make existing problems worse.

 

[Greward]

Here in Portugal we allow Miis with any moveset, but they have to be the Wii U's guest Miis (so, default size). But we also allow custom moves, so yeah. But if we do customs off tournaments, we will still allow Miis with access to their alternative moves.
As far as I know in France they allow Miis with any set in customs off tourneys too. Not sure about Spain though.

Same in Spain. Any set, default size, customs OFF.

 

[nodle]

I've been seeing a lot of the "we already have characters that are entirely based around one or two moves, so why not add more?" argument lately. And even though the answer to that question is incredibly simple and obvious and I shouldn't need to explain it, I guess I really have no choice.

If you are asking this, then you have already identified that a lot of people do not like this type of character.

The actual argument is that you are incorrect. People are fine with a character's best move being a special move. No one is complaining about Luigi. Every one is fine with shiek being the best character as long as some other characters have decent matchups against her. The only thing people complain about with Pikachu is HSB, even though Quick attack is and always has been Pikachu's best special. No one cares if a character is spamming/abusing a (default) move, they just learn to beat it. Once they do the opponent stops spamming the move. Knock DK out of Kong cyclone a couple times (its not that hard) and the DK player will seriously consider whether they want to go back to upB-1.

The simple truth is that people who say they lost because of customs are just being 'johns.' Stop making excuses and play the game.

 

[Raijinken]

We can make rules against default specials. We just shouldn't because it's a stupid idea to give a mob the right to balance the game by exclusion of content.

Oh, wait, that's what we're sitting here arguing about, isn't it?

 

[Runic_SSB]

@ N nodle people complain about Mach Tornado 2.0, Quick-Attack and Sheik all the time, dude. The reason why people complain about customs a lot more is because, as I have said twice now, we can do nothing about those moves except hope that Sakurai nerfs them, but the moves people do frequently complain about can be easily switched off. That, and those three characters are not even close to as reliant on their specials as the custom-boosted characters would be, and would definitely still be viable without them (also unlike the custom-boosted characters).

And I've been biting my tongue, but you are really getting on my nerves. You literally just joined the community and already you're trying to dictate the direction of the metagame, and you're being pretty arrogant about it as well. "Stop making excuses and play the game." how full of yourself do you have to be to tell off an entire community of people when you're brand ****ing new to it? I normally hate to bring up post count or join date, but in this case it's definitely warranted. It also doesn't help the visible negative correlation between player experience and customs support.

@ Raijinken I'm just going to ignore the part about how balancing the game through exclusion of content is the foundation of competitive Smash Bros. and focus this part:

We can make rules against default specials.

As I've already said multiple times, no, we can't. We tried to ban Meta Knight, a character that is almost unanimously considered to be overcentralizing and who single-handedly invalidates the vast majority of the cast, twice. Both times it failed. How, then, are we going to convince the entire community to manually stop people from using two or three specific moves?

This is the issue with this argument, and most Smashboards arguments in general; you guys refuse to look at anything from a sociological perspective. From a purely logical perspective, it's easy to come to the conclusion that if we can make a rule against X, we can also make a rule against Y. But if you look at it from the perspective of "people aren't perfectly logical" it's pretty plain to see why people would be a lot less tolerant of something if you give them the option to automatically turn it off, but would be a lot more inclined to just deal with it if they had to manually put multiple rules in place and make numerous special exceptions.

 

[nodle]

@ N nodle people complain about Mach Tornado 2.0, Quick-Attack and Sheik all the time, dude. The reason why people complain about customs a lot more is because, as I have said twice now, we can do nothing about those moves except hope that Sakurai nerfs them, but the moves people do frequently complain about can be easily switched off. That, and those three characters are not even close to as reliant on their specials as the custom-boosted characters would be, and would definitely still be viable without them (also unlike the custom-boosted characters).

I'm going to come back to the claim that the only reason people spam customs is because their competition doesn't know how to beat them. Once you've knocked a DK out of Kong Cyclone a couple of times, they change their strategy. I also question the claim that custom boosted characters would be reliant on their specials. Do you honestly think Custom Kirby is abusing any of its moves? That custom Ganon becomes centralized. I also don't understand why a character being dependent on their specials is a bad thing. Some characters can be said to be dependent on their throws, some on tilts, some on aerials. In reality, there is no move in Smash that is so powerful that a character is totally reliant on it. Even the spammiest of Wind Kongs still mixes up their attacks with throws for stage control, Aerials for edge guards, smashes for hard-read kills, etc. The idea that custom characters become entirely dependent on their specials seems like a myth to me.

@ N nodle

N nodle

 

[Runic_SSB]

I also don't understand why a character being dependent on their specials is a bad thing. Some characters cam be said to be dependent on their throws, some on tilts, some on aerials.

The exact reason for it is irrelevant. The important thing isn't why people don't like it, it's just the fact that people don't like it. Telling someone that their preferences are illogical is never going to change them. Frankly, people just feel how they feel, and for a very large portion of the community, characters based entirely around their specials are insufferable and make them not want to play the game.

I don't disagree with you. Ultimately this thread (and threads like it) isn't about forcing the community to change the rules though, its about figuring out what the community should do. If the only argument against something is "People aren't rational" then that isn't really an argument worth bothering with for the purposes of this thread. The question isn't whether or not the community 'would' accept customs, its whether or not the community 'should' accept customs.

That part was more in reference to the "it's unfair to turn off customs, because some characters have OP defaults" argument. Yes, it does suck that certain characters get to have BS specials just because they're default, but it's even more unfair to force people to foster a metagame they hate just because default bans are realistically impossible.

You're right. I should go back in time and join this forum earlier. Make a bunch of posts to bump my comment count. That would definitely make my arguments stronger and my ideas more valid. That's totally how it works....

I might've come off a bit harsh. Like I said, I try not to judge people by join date or post count, but there are two exceptions; 1. when people make accounts just to post placebo-induced changes with no evidence in patch notes threads, and 2. when people immediately start trying to change or dictate things. You haven't really shown that you know how the game or the community really works, but you act like your opinions should have as much, if not more pull than other people's.

 

[nodle]

The exact reason for it is irrelevant. The important thing isn't why people don't like it, it's just the fact that people don't like it. Telling someone that their preferences are illogical is never going to change them. Frankly, people just feel how they feel, and for a very large portion of the community, characters based entirely around their specials are insufferable and make them not want to play the game.

Once again, I don't disagree with you. I acknowledge that many players don't like customs. I hope you can acknowledge that many players like customs, even if that group is smaller than the group who doesn't like customs. Ultimately the question of whether or not players like or dislike customs isn't important to me. I'm interested only in whether or not customs 'should' be used. That is to say that I'm more interested in whether or not customs would produce a more balanced, diverse, and deep metagame. Player opinions just don't matter much to me for the purposes of that discussion. I'm not a TO. I have no power to enforce my opinions on other players. Ultimately, I'll play the game regardless of whether or not customs are legal.

That part was more in reference to the "it's unfair to turn off customs, because some characters have OP defaults" argument. Yes, it does suck that certain characters get to have BS specials just because they're default, but it's even more unfair to force people to foster a metagame they hate just because default bans are realistically impossible.

Here is a major point were we differ. I don't think quick attack is BS. I don't think Shiek's bouncing fish is breaking the game. Sm4sh seems pretty well balanced to me. It's because the game is pretty well balanced that customs are such a big deal. Bad characters are only a good move or two away from being as good as top tier characters. DK is a perfect example of this. Kirby gets a couple good customs and goes from being total trash to being somewhere in B or A tier. Its also hilarious how hard custom Kirby ****s on planking villager strategies.

 

[wizrad]

I have nothing left to say about customs, hence why I've not posted here in a couple of days. Both sides understand the reasons for and against customs. The difference lies in our perceptions of these reasons, and, thus, is more or less based in opinion. The only thing I can think of that would settle this argument once and for all is for a group of people to do matchup testing with customs on, compare it with the default matchups, and give us the conclusion that "customs are/aren't more balanced than default". Here's the real reason why I'm posting:

Default Kirby is far from trash, why do people keep saying that? Kirby is probably at the top of B tier (which in my mind means that you might need a secondary to support this character in bad matchups) without customs and jumps into A (no need for a secondary (unless you're Luigi)) with them. How can a trash character have one of the best matchups in the game against the best character in the game? Kirby is damn good, just underrepresented.

 

[Raijinken]

As I've already said multiple times, no, we can't. We tried to ban Meta Knight, a character that is almost unanimously considered to be overcentralizing and who single-handedly invalidates the vast majority of the cast, twice. Both times it failed. How, then, are we going to convince the entire community to manually stop people from using two or three specific moves?

This is the issue with this argument, and most Smashboards arguments in general; you guys refuse to look at anything from a sociological perspective. From a purely logical perspective, it's easy to come to the conclusion that if we can make a rule against X, we can also make a rule against Y. But if you look at it from the perspective of "people aren't perfectly logical" it's pretty plain to see why people would be a lot less tolerant of something if you give them the option to automatically turn it off, but would be a lot more inclined to just deal with it if they had to manually put multiple rules in place and make numerous special exceptions.

Competitively speaking, we CAN ban things like that. We shouldn't, and obviously the outcry would be outrageous, but we CAN. We CAN make a ruleset saying "Every character has one allowed loadout. For <Characters>, this is 1111. For <Characters> this is 2122. For Sheik, this is 3111. This is done to give <Characters> a valid chance against the rest of the cast, and to bring Sheik under control without resorting to a character ban." Our rulesets already include several non-game-set rules.

I don't think we should be making special exceptions. Nor do I think the number of rules you're implying is intrusive.

Custom Moves ON.
Equipment NOT ALLOWED.
[Tournament-dependent part starts here]
Players must use one of the pre-defined Custom Moveset Project movesets.
[or]
Setups will contain 8/10 of the Custom Moveset Project. Players may upload their own movesets before their match begins.


Three rules. Nothing hard to remember. No exceptions, all special moves are allowed (unless you run the strict EVO set without imports). The game plays as usual, but with all characters having access to their individual best, or player-preferred, loadouts.

I feel like I should restate here. I don't think any special is ban-worthy, when they are all held to the same standard. And I also don't think laziness, appeals to authority, appeals to status quo, or subjective hatred of certain moves, strategies, or characters, has any place in a ruleset discussion. Without players willing to test the rule, and find reasons these customs should be collectively banned, we have nothing but theory and an entertainingly nice slate of "Nothing terrible happened except people got salty over stalling" with customs. That, to me, indicates that our community is banning them because they don't want to learn. And that disgusts me, personally.

That said, I'm interested to hear your views on Miis, who cannot be toggled off, and cannot be restricted to any sort of "default" loadout.

 

[Rashyboy05]

I
Default Kirby is far from trash, why do people keep saying that? Kirby is probably at the top of B tier (which in my mind means that you might need a secondary to support this character in bad matchups) without customs and jumps into A (no need for a secondary (unless you're Luigi)) with them. How can a trash character have one of the best matchups in the game against the best character in the game? Kirby is damn good, just underrepresented.

Coming from someone who used to main Kirby. His approach option are ****. He has to get a read to kill in non custom setting. He's pretty good in customs though. Has a kill move in Upper Cutter, a super armor in one of his Hammer customs and Jumping Inhale shenanigans.

 

[SoniCraft]

Coming from someone who used to main Kirby. His approach option are ****. He has to get a read to kill in non custom setting. He's pretty good in customs though. Has a kill move in Upper Cutter, a super armor in one of his Hammer customs and Jumping Inhale shenanigans.

Would you say your character becomes centralized around or dependent on those moves with Customs On?

 

[Rashyboy05]

Would you say your character becomes centralized around or dependent on those moves with Customs On?

I wouldn't say he's centralized around those moves as he's still good once he gets in. With Dair and the newly buffed F-throw being good combo starters. You can theoretically make a combo that can lead to a kill with Upper Cutter. But yeah, he clearly becomes dependent on those moves with Customs on. Not to the level with Airbender Dong but close.