What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[Jiggly]

Also people who say "X still wouldn't be meta in customs" should really refrain from doing so. You don't play those characters, that meta, and there's nowhere NEAR enough data or experimentation to know how viable custom characters are/aren't.

Exactly, my spinphony wakey wakey puff will win next evo EZ people arent ready

 

[Jiggly]

What is the point of an "undecided" option? If someone is "undecided" then just don't vote

Its so we know how many people arent convinced either way yet. What if we had a lot of undecided people? That would be prettty important to know. Its all about opinions, and having a lack of one is something we should still know

 

[wizrad]

Top. High. Mid. Low. My grandmother used to tell me stories about the old days, a time of meta-stasis when the Sheik kept unbalance between the Top Tier Tribes, the High Tier Kingdom, the Mid Tier Nation, and the Low Tier Nomads.

But that all changed when the Customs Nation attacked…

 

[Raijinken]

Part of it is that he hasnt played Smash 4 all summer so he needs to relearn stuff. Hopefully as he becomes more familiar with the game he'll start using more customs

Edit: for a hype custome move, maybe try Bowser's dadh slash? It's an airdash, and shorthop dash slash has no landing lag so it can go into a ftilt or jab or grab etc. it gives bowser much needed mobility and is not only a very obvious, flashy improvement, but lacks any brokenness or jank that might turn someone off of customs. But it really depends on who your friends like to use so idk

I'm the only thing close to a Bowser player amongst my friends, though. And Mac doesn't really have impressive customs, though I still don't get why the Wii Fit main won't use them.

 

[wizrad]

My friends are Mii, a Ganondorf, a Villager (the irritating kind, but he's bad so it's okay), a Link, and like ten Captain Falcons. We all love customs for the new layer of depth they add to the game and the interesting implications of this new depth, despite only myself and the Ganondorf player (who's probably the best of us) actively exploring custom moves. In fact, they complain more about Miis being dumb more than they do about customs. I guess I'm just lucky.

 

[Raijinken]

My friends are Mii, a Ganondorf, a Villager (the irritating kind, but he's bad so it's okay), a Link, and like ten Captain Falcons. We all love customs for the new layer of depth they add to the game and the interesting implications of this new depth, despite only myself and the Ganondorf player (who's probably the best of us) actively exploring custom moves. In fact, they complain more about Miis being dumb more than they do about customs. I guess I'm just lucky.

Of my full friend circle, we've got, by player...
Don't Use Customs

• 
• 
• 
• 

Use Customs

• 
• 
• 
• 
• 

• 

Of course, I alone account for most of the character diversity as well as custom usage. I get (well, got prior to moving three hours away from most of that group) plenty of customs experience on a large portion of the roster. But that doesn't translate to my state having more than exactly one (even further away and tiny) customs-on tournament.

 

[DunnoBro]

I'm just realllly pissed that great customs are going unnoticed because they take actual skill to use and aren't cheesing the opponent out of their stock at 30

Like GEE, I don't know, peach who gets a kill confirm off dair with flying peach bomber. True combo that can kill from around 60% And dair is safe as hell.

Also, the heavy veggie true combos into flying peach bomber too. When tossed from a short hop it's super safe on shield but still combos and kills at the ledge around 60-80.

So she gets two new safe on shield kill set-ups.

Yoshi's customs are actually really good too. But people (especially top players) are too consumed by groupthink to bother researching their options.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

I'm just realllly pissed that great customs are going unnoticed because they take actual skill to use and aren't cheesing the opponent out of their stock at 30

Like GEE, I don't know, peach who gets a kill confirm off dair with flying peach bomber. True combo that can kill from around 60% And dair is safe as hell.

Also, the heavy veggie true combos into flying peach bomber too. When tossed from a short hop it's super safe on shield but still combos and kills at the ledge around 60-80.

So she gets two new safe on shield kill set-ups.

Yoshi's customs are actually really good too. But people (especially top players) are too consumed by groupthink to bother researching their options.

hold on there, buddy. none of us on this thread use Peach, so none of us would know this. But it's still interesting and I'm glad you shared it with us!

 

[DunnoBro]

hold on there, buddy. none of us on this thread use Peach, so none of us would know this. But it's still interesting and I'm glad you shared it with us!

I'm not faulting any specific people here, just the lack of interest/research at large. Also certain anti-customs seem to believe we've even scratched the surface of the "usable" customs and think the most a custom meta contributes is heavier skull bashes and yet another dumb spin move.

 

[Tek-ton]

Personally, I'm against them being in major tournaments, but I think they're perfectly fine for friendlies and general good old fashioned shenanigans between mates.
Just don't base anything big around them- most of them make good characters better and decent characters stay anout the same.

 

[nodle]

I've been following this thread for a while and have seen quite a few arguments thrown around. Most seem misguided, downright false, or logically suspicious. I'll just briefly try to explain the arguments that I think are valid in the pro and con side along with some apparently false arguments.

Pro

1. Customs should lead to a more balanced metagame. The short and simple of it is that the standard deviation (character imbalance) in the power of moves goes down when players are allowed to take the best of multiple options. I can go into depth on this point, but the theory-crafting has already been very well explained by thinkaman. Here is a link to his post.
2. Customs should lead to a deeper game via virtually increasing the size of Sm4sh's roster. If we can assume that at least one character in Sm4sh has multiple competitive custom moveset configurations, then we will have effectively added another character to the game. This is another character for people to practice with and against, while increasing the skill ceiling for highest level player (they now have another match-up that they need to know.)

Con

1. Logistics is still a pain. Even with the 3ds trick, we can still only load 10 custom sets per character. While this is probably sufficient, as it seems unlikely that any character will have 10 good custom moveset combinations, it is still another step for TO's to have to think about and deal with.
2. Customs basically demand everyone who wants to play Sm4sh competitively own, or at least have access to, a 3ds increasing the financial barrier to entry.
3. DLC characters don't have customs. I wish they did. Without customs, the characters feel half finished to me. But they don't and we have no reason to believe Nintendo will add them. Because they don't DLC characters will be, in theory, 'on average weaker' than standard characters. This is an unfortunate source of imbalance in the game.

False Arguments

1. Japan doesn't use customs, so we shouldn't either. To truly see how dumb this argument is, realize that the argument can easily be reversed to "Japan should use customs, because we use customs." I would be surprised if there isn't some message board somewhere where Japanese Sm4sh players are debating the validity of customs and saying "Customs are popular in the USA." while referencing EVO.
2. Customs imbalance the game. See point 1 under pros. Customs should make the game more balanced. EVO results, though I do think the results aren't neccesarily representitive of a fleshed out customs meta, suggest that customs are perfectly safe. They didn't break the game.
3. The pros don't like customs. What any person likes is mostly irrelevant to the discussion of Customs, which should be based on evidence based arguments and good theory crafting. Plenty of players like customs, some of those people are pros. Custom moves are a divisive element of the Sm4sh community and there are players at all levels on all sides.
4. Custom move 'X' is broken. Let's assume such a move exists. A simple and easily implemented solution is to ban the move. TO's are the ones who are setting up the movesets, just don't put that custom on any movesets. Of course, that assumes that such a move exists. In reality, we have no reason to believe that any of the custom moves are 'broken'. Common moves that people complain about are "Kong Cyclone" or "Heavy Skull Bash". Neither of these moves is Broken. Kong cyclone is weird but totally beatable if you spend literally any time trying. Here is a good tutorial telling you how/when to beat it. The move is borderline suicidal against shiek who can chain Upairs for the kill as low as 50%. HSB is equally a non issue. It's a finicky move that is literally only useful as a combo finisher. I agknoledge that HSB may prove to be too strong but it hasn't been shown to be yet.

Ultimately, the Pros are all theoretical, and the Cons are all down to laziness and bad decisions of Nintendo. I personally think that Customs are likely to be good for the competitive scene. Unfortunately the community seems determined to throw away the opportunity that is customs.

 

[Raijinken]

hold on there, buddy. none of us on this thread use Peach, so none of us would know this. But it's still interesting and I'm glad you shared it with us!

I'll add Peach to my experimentation list for the weekend. I was using her the other day against my brother without even knowing about these combos and managed to still pull off the dair one. Definitely seems to have good potential.

 

[Rizen]

Pro

1. Customs should lead to a more balanced metagame.

Ultimately, the Pros are all theoretical,

I want to emphasize this. Theory crafting doesn't work for competitive smash. The reason the pro players are against customs is because they have experience at the highest level of play like Evo. All the points supporting customs and ignoring pro players are like a medical student telling a heart surgeon how to operate.


The reason Japan not using customs is relevant is because players won't travel; this hurts the metagame because smaller tourney sizes and less exposure to the Eastern metagame.
Customs also hurt tourney attendance by discouraging new players. People who haven't spent 80-100 hours on stupid, repetitive 1 player modes unlocking everything. People who tried for glory, which has no customs, and want to get good at live events.

 

[wizrad]

Didn't I hear that most of Europe uses customs from someone in this thread? What about those players? Why alienate them to cater to the Japanese? And why should we care? In every game, we rarely, if ever, get any regular attendance from international players. I can think of Armada, Leffen, aMSa, and Abadango, and two of them play Melee (the more established and I believe more popular worldwide game). Unless we change our rules to mimic Japan's ruleset exactly, we aren't going to attract many players. And if you want to have that ruleset, you might as well just rank players by their For Glory winrates.

Theory crafting doesn't work for competitive Smash? Then why do we care about frame data? Why do we debate matchups? Why do we even have a tier list? Theory crafting does work, but it's up to us to test the theories that pop up. And don't say Evo counts, that's one tournament ever to use customs. Top level players don't use customs, so they don't know customs, so they need to work harder to beat people who know customs but aren't as good players. This is why they think customs are "stupid" or "jank", not because His Holiness ZeRo spent hundreds of hours in the lab, researching every matchup created just by changing a character's customs. What he did was see that customs are boring to unlock and all the butthurt scrubs who think Wind Dong is OP, then decide that customs are stupid, regardless of their potential.

 

[wizrad]

the Cons are all down to laziness

I want to emphasize this. Laziness doesn't work for competitive Smash. The reason pro players are against customs is because they are lazy and don't want to have to work to make their money. The points ignoring customs and supporting pro players are like a country blindly following its leader at any cost.

 

[Rizen]

The reason pro players are against customs is because they are lazy and don't want to have to work to make their money.

Why do you guys have to say things like this?

With my smash experience I changed my views on many things. In my early Brawl days I thought Link could be mid tier because I beat all my friends. Then I got into competitive smash. I used to think Link can pull bombs, camp and Zair to space DDD. Then I played good DDDs and learned the MU is -3 for a reason; DDD's powershield grab game>everything Link has. Then you get grabbed, lose 30-60% and are offstage trying to recover vs DDD's Bair wall. GG.
Pro players know how competitive smash works; that's why they dislike customs.

 

[DunnoBro]

1. Customs should lead to a more balanced metagame. The short and simple of it is that the standard deviation (character imbalance) in the power of moves goes down when players are allowed to take the best of multiple options. I can go into depth on this point, but the theory-crafting has already been very well explained by thinkaman. Here is a link to his post.

No it shouldn't, it should lead to a different metagame. Due to the possibility of more problematic sets like Stall Villager/Sonic, saying customs are or should be more balanced, especially when default is tweaked more thoroughly(due to japan-centric patches) is just reckless.

Instead, I think people should look to customs for a more "Efficient" metagame. Where more characters combo, kill confirm, can play the neutral.

It wouldn't be inaccurate to call this "balance" since the options of palutena, ganondorf, etc are catching up to the options of sheik, pikachu etc... but it would be misleading.

Pro players know how competitive smash works; that's why this dislike customs.

Not all of them dislike them though. M2k, Max Ketchum, Boss, etc. While a minority, it does seem actual opinions come into play instead of just top player status.

 

[John12346]

I've heard absolutely nothing about the folks down at Europe using customs. I believe Japan and Europe both allow free reign for Miis, but that's about it. Something we should look into, I think.

 

[Rizen]

Didn't M2K quit SSB4?

 

[Wintropy]

Didn't M2K quit SSB4?

No, he plays DK now. :3

 

[DunnoBro]

I've heard absolutely nothing about the folks down at Europe using customs. I believe Japan and Europe both allow free reign for Miis, but that's about it. Something we should look into, I think.

Yea, I'd really rather fight for miis first. Customs is a losing battle that miis are being dragged into, but I think getting non-1111 miis is totally doable.

Didn't M2K quit SSB4?

He's been tearing up regionals with a week 1/2 old DK recently.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I've heard absolutely nothing about the folks down at Europe using customs. I believe Japan and Europe both allow free reign for Miis, but that's about it. Something we should look into, I think.

I believe Miis and Customs are a very very separate thing, FYI.

I think Miis should have some sort of free options, but since they are usable without the Customs turned on, I feel like it's a separate thing.

Just to alleviate confusion.

 

[warionumbah2]

Europe didn't have customs even when the US had them(or at least for me) and i''m glad they did along with Japan.

Customs ain't coming back any time soon, i can wager that its never gonna be as big as it was a few months ago.

 

[DunnoBro]

Wait, what does "free reign for miis" mean?

If it means sizes + non-1111, I'm very skeptic that mii brawler isn't higher there.

 

[wizrad]

Why do you guys have to say things like this?

With my smash experience I changed my views on many things. In my early Brawl days I thought Link could be mid tier because I beat all my friends. Then I got into competitive smash. I used to think Link can pull bombs, camp and Zair to space DDD. Then I played good DDDs and learned the MU is -3 for a reason; DDD's powershield grab game>everything Link has. Then you get grabbed, lose 30-60% and are offstage trying to recover vs DDD's Bair wall. GG.
Pro players know how competitive smash works; that's why they dislike customs.

My statement is just as sound as yours. Neither can be proven; both are speculation. I do know that ZeRo doesn't study anything anymore. At Pax, he said he really only plays once a week. There's my proof that the top player doesn't study customs, but that's one instance. I doubt you have any significant proof either.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Wait, what does "free reign for miis" mean?

If it means sizes + non-1111, I'm very skeptic that mii brawler isn't higher there.

Yeah cause....Small Brawler with optimal set is SUPER SCARY.

I figure if we at least endorse like, medium height + Mii moveset of choice, it should work, yeah?

My statement is just as sound as yours. Neither can be proven; both are speculation. I do know that ZeRo doesn't study anything anymore. At Pax, he said he really only plays once a week. There's my proof that the top player doesn't study customs, but that's one instance. I doubt you have any significant proof either.

His burnout has nothing to do with being lazy. Prior to all of this he played for INSURMOUNTABLE amounts of time. Ask anyone, he's only been burned out recently, but before he put unbelievable amounts of time into Smash 4. You wonder why he's so good? It's because he has probably played the game the most out of any top player. He's talked about customs before, he probably knows about all the good ones (but not the SECRET good ones, shame on him! Scalding FLUDD beckons you!) but like, I don't think this is the best example.

There are probably better examples of top players disregarding customs without TRYING them at all.

 

[John12346]

When I say free reign I'm only referring to their Specials. I never bothered researching into sizes so I don't know what Japan and Europe allow in that regard. Again, we should still go ahead and confirm that they do actually allow Miis to use Specials freely. I've heard multiple sources say this is true but it never hurt to double check.

 

[wizrad]

Yeah, that wasn't the best example. But there's still no solid evidence for either of us. That's what I was getting at.

 

[Rizen]

My statement is just as sound as yours.

Your statement is top players are lazy and money grubbing. My statement is top players have competitive experience at the highest level. The proof is Evo.

 

[Loota]

For the Europe talk, we're not the most notable country here but I'm responsible for the majority of Smash 4 tournaments in Finland which get ~40 participants on average every month. My ruleset has mainly been using customs, 3 stocks and 13 stage FLSS.

The majority of the players seem to like customs and the rest don't really mind, but I'd say not that many people actually use them. We've yet had any of the most controversial ones appear regularly such as DK or Villager so I don't actually know how the general player base would react to those. Personally I'm fine either way regarding them being on or off but I really want to keep customs on as long as there still is demand for them worldwide too as it is much easier to transfer from customs to no customs metagame than the other way around. My reasons might be somewhat selfish but at least the players are either okay with them or actually grown to like them after being "forced" to adapt to customs.

Regarding Miis, I heavily believe they should be allowed to have any moveset in a customs off metagame as well since the game doesn't limit their usage even when the customs switch is turned off. I also don't believe in any 1111-forced sets as they're only default in the sense that they have to have something to start with if you don't want to customize them any further than appearance or equipments. Labeling them as default in the same sense as the normal characters' default movesets seems like a more arbitary choice to me.

Different Mii sizes is a bit more complicated. I believe that there shouldn't ever exist a need to quit the game in tournaments so I'd naturally be somewhat against of allowing different sizes aside of default. However, the 3DS transfer happens to exist, and we've actually been using the custom moveset project sets for all characters so that I've been able to allow different sized Miis to be used as well. Of course, you're also able to transfer any other sized Miis you'd like, provided you have a system to transfer from, but we usually have a spare 3DS to do that too just in case.

As for different sized Miis, I've held only one customs off tournament so far and I restricted them to default size only as there was no need for extra preparations in doing so. I didn't really think it that much at the time and I've started to think they should be allowed to be any size, since the game allows them with customs off just like the usage of all their different specials. Can someone tell me how has it been handled by other TO's? Have they made every possible size combination in Mii Maker on every WiiU or just resorted to having one 3DS ready with all different sized Miis to be customized and imported?

 

[Raijinken]

Your statement is top players are lazy and money grubbing. My statement is top players have competitive experience at the highest level. The proof is Evo.

Wherein Nairo used customs. And if he's not a top player, then I don't know what is. And again, appeal to authority doesn't actually matter on things like this. Not all top players like Sheik, and I seem to recall Zero himself being very vocally opposed to just how nonsensically good she is. Their opinions count from a viability and results stance, but as mentioned, when other things Zero says are blatantly false, his authority has to be taken with a grain of salt, just like everyone else's.

As for Miis, limiting them to 1111 is a deliberate death sentence. NC's "big" TOs/mods on our discussion page on Facebook have ruled against them for being "Create-a-characters which are often banned in other fighting games."

Drives me insane. I'd play mid-size Miis with variable moves any time. I can understand limiting players to Tiny, 1/4 height, or default, from a logistics stance, but limiting their moves is literally nonsense.

And to my relatively limited knowledge of other fighting games with create-a-characters, aren't they typically just custom-appearance versions of existing characters? I'm not personally aware, in my limited experience, of ones that are entirely (or at least essentially) moveset-unique.

 

[Xeze]

When I say free reign I'm only referring to their Specials. I never bothered researching into sizes so I don't know what Japan and Europe allow in that regard.

Here in Portugal we allow Miis with any moveset, but they have to be the Wii U's guest Miis (so, default size). But we also allow custom moves, so yeah. But if we do customs off tournaments, we will still allow Miis with access to their alternative moves.
As far as I know in France they allow Miis with any set in customs off tourneys too. Not sure about Spain though.

 

[nodle]

I want to emphasize this. Theory crafting doesn't work for competitive smash.

Considering the customs meta is almost completely unexplored, theory crafting is the best we have. The logic supporting the arguement 'Customs make the game more balanced' is fundamentally rooted in basic Mathematics. Your resistance to the argument just shows that you don't understand it. Customs will make the game more balanced, meaning that the average difference in power level of characters is going to go down as a result of turning on customs. There is no room for debate here, its just plain and simple mathematics.

The reason the pro players are against customs is because they have experience at the highest level of play like Evo. All the points supporting customs and ignoring pro players are like a medical student telling a heart surgeon how to operate.

I often here pros say they don't like customs, but what I rarely here is their reason. More often then not, they claim something along the lines of 'custom moves are jank.' Its such a non argument it isn't even worth adressing. 'Jank' is so poorly defined that I'm not going to touch it with a 10 foot pole. Until such times as pros support their opinions with well defined arguments, I will continue to treat them as the mostly worthless opinions of irrational and misguided humans.

No it shouldn't, it should lead to a different metagame.

...snip...

It wouldn't be inaccurate to call this "balance" since the options of palutena, ganondorf, etc are catching up to the options of sheik, pikachu etc... but it would be misleading.

Thank your for ceding the point. Mathematics says that customs should lead to a more balanced metagame.

I want to emphasize this. Laziness doesn't work for competitive Smash.

Please don't quote me out of context like that. My claim was specifically about the laziness of Nintendo, not bothering to give DLC characters customs. This combined with their poor implementation of Customs (unlock and setup system) are responsible for literally all the valid cons of a customs meta. I would never call the pros lazy, they aren't. I just think they are irrational human beings, like everyone else.

 

[DunnoBro]

Thank your for ceding the point. Mathematics says that customs should lead to a more balanced metagame.

No, it would balance certain aspects of the game. Not the meta, we have no idea what the meta will look like so claiming it'd be balanced is silly.

I'd like to believe they would be, but vague terminology like "mathematics" don't really convince me.

 

[Rizen]

^You put my name in that quote but nodle said it.

The logic supporting the arguement 'Customs make the game more balanced' is fundamentally rooted in basic Mathematics. Your resistance to the argument just shows that you don't understand it. Customs will make the game more balanced, meaning that the average difference in power level of characters is going to go down as a result of turning on customs. There is no room for debate here, its just plain and simple mathematics.

^This is exactly why I value pro players' opinions over just anyone. I completely understand the 'with 3 sets, 1 is bound to be better' theory but it's flawed in practice. Let me put it this way:

Not all customs are equal. The higher the number the better a custom is.
DK's wind upB = 9, it's really good.
Zelda's everything gets no higher than her standard moves because her customs are crud. 2 tops. The gap between DK and Zelda widens for a more polarized MU.

DK just gained a huge advantage and Zelda got the raw deal. Not all characters benefit from customs and many that do are top tier anyway. This is buffing already top tier characters like Rosalina and Pikachu (meaning characters who don't get custom buffs or minor buffs have an even worse MU vs them). The tiers get mixed up a bit from default but the cream always rises to the top leaving the rest with coffee grounds.

Plus what matters is how custom moves are exploited. DK can upB to safely counter most moves and bad characters don't have a good answer to it. DK becomes 'upB the character' because it's better than solid fundamentals. Matches go like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yynXqx03VY

 

[DunnoBro]

I don't necessarily disagree but non-viable characters becoming viable is more important in regards to balance than the specific matchups of characters we know to be non-viable either way.

Also I've beaten out dk upb plenty of times and have an undefeated record vs custom DKs in tournament with several characters. Even seagull joe knew not to play me with that character cause I actually understand it unlike most players.

(Pretty sure I knocked both those players out of that tournament)

It's really not as polarizing as people think.

bad characters don't have a good answer to it.

Most characters have a shield I think.

http://gfycat.com/TornAjarDarwinsfox

 

[nodle]

No, it would balance certain aspects of the game. Not the meta, we have no idea what the meta will look like so claiming it'd be balanced is silly.

Ah. my apologies, I didn't see the distinction you were making earlier between a 'more balanced game' and a 'more balanced metagame.' I suppose I agree with you. It is imaginable that a more balanced game could result in a less balanced metagame, but I can't think of any instances of this happening with other competitive games. Has there ever been a game in which increasing character balance resulted in a less diverse metagame?

I'd like to believe they would be, but vague terminology like "mathematics" don't really convince me.

How does 'probability theory' grab you then. Really though, the math is rather simple and intuitive. If you have a bad move, and you are given the option to replace it with another move, odds are pretty good that another move will be superior. The added selection makes characters with bad moves better. On the other hand, if you have a good move, and you are given the option to replace it with another move, odds are pretty good that you have the best move already. Characters with good moves, don't get better. This is ultimately a simplifications used to explain the theory. If you want, I can go into detail on the mathematical model used to justify the theory and explicitly show how the variance in move strength (aka variance in character power) is reduced by giving players the options of using customs, and so justifying my claim that customs should make the game more balanced (i.e. the difference in power between the best character and the worst character goes down.)

 

[DunnoBro]

Like I'm saying, there ARE things customs balance. You're right about that, but this isn't simple math. There are much deeper interactions than that which we might not be able to foresee and might overshadow the options.(things like the pikachu infinite which was luckily patched)

There's really no need to try claiming "Customs are more balanced" because players don't actually care that much about balance.

 

[Rizen]

I don't necessarily disagree but non-viable characters becoming viable is more important in regards to balance than the specific matchups of characters we know to be non-viable either way.

That's the thing with SSB4, unlike Brawl most characters even bad ones can potentially win. Look at Scizor's solo Link placing 4th out of 113 or Raykalm's solo Ganon placing 7th out of 144 (the post about it was all I could find).
http://smashboards.com/rankings/smash4-at-church-singles.6238/event
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...-of-kings-social.368638/page-46#post-19942823

The gap between good and bad characters is small giving them a better chance and tourneys more character diversity. Customs will make bad MUs worse.

 

[DunnoBro]

The gap between good and bad characters is small giving them a better chance and tourneys more character diversity. Customs will make bad MUs worse.

Bad characters placed well in brawl too, see San's Ike.

Customs change MUs all around, for the better or worse. How they effect characters that are still non-viable shouldn't be a major concern. If they make too many characters that were once viable, now not... That would be. That would mean there's less balance and less diversity.

But Zelda going from 8th worst to 3rd isn't exactly ringing any alarms to me.