What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[Rocket-Bot]

I ain't a he. ;3



I don't understand this argument. It's your opinion and I respect that, but it doesn't really hold up rationally.

What, in your honest opinion, does have a place in tournaments?

What should be in tournaments are pure skill, good sportsmanship, and what not.
Basically, things that either break the balance shouldn't be in tournaments, i.e items and in my opinion, customs.

 

[Wintropy]

What should be in tournaments are pure skill, good sportsmanship, and what not.
Basically, things that either break the balance shouldn't be in tournaments, i.e items and in my opinion, customs.

Fair enough, but you haven't really demonstrated how customs break the balance.

It will ultimately hark back to Raijinken's statement that, even in the default meta, moves like Sheik's needles and ZSS's Boost Kick will still break the balance.

 

[Ansou]

@ Ansou you said you want customs in cause they're a part of the game, but who are you to decide that, and then say that equipments are not? It doesn't work like that. And if you really think they provide neither depth nor balance (which is what competitive play needs) I have to say that your argument here is the weakest. No more than fake entitlement to what you think is a part of the game. Not that much better than the arguments most anti-customs people bring if you ask me.

It is not my opinion that they are a part of the game. That is an objective fact. If this is not a good reason to allow custom moves, then please tell me this: why do we allow DLC characters and unlockable characters in competitive play? They are not there from the start so according to you we need good justification for them to be legal.

Equipments are also a part of the game and I would be completely fine with allowing them if they would actually work well in competitive play. But they have some serious flaws that make them unsuited for competitive play.

Also, I do believe that custom moves provide both depth and balance, but I don't think that is the main reason that we should allow them.

Why does everyone keep saying "Oh I don't like this so imma ban it u want to ban everything lol"
That's not how this customs debate topic works, you see, the bouncing fish for shiek and what not, is how their character works. Like
ZSS: is supposed to have a paralyzer to start combo, because she revolves around combos
Pikachu does too, but giving him the option of a paralyzer makes him more ridiculous.
Banning everything is not the solution, but banning somethings are necessary, so we can all play the same metagame.

One thing that is feels like you don't account for is that custom moves have been in the game from the start. It's not some random mod for the game that we decided to test just because we felt like it. We're not "giving" Pikachu a paralyser by allowing customs. That paralyser is already there and we shouldn't be banning it unless it's proven to be broken. Having that paralyser as an option is how the Pikachu character works just like having a paralyser as an option is how the Zero Suit Samus character works.

 

[Rocket-Bot]

One thing that is feels like you don't account for is that custom moves have been in the game from the start. It's not some random mod for the game that we decided to test just because we felt like it. We're not "giving" Pikachu a paralyser by allowing customs. That paralyser is already there and we shouldn't be banning it unless it's proven to be broken. Having that paralyser as an option is how the Pikachu character works just like having a paralyser as an option is how the Zero Suit Samus character works.

Thunderwave is what im talking about, it's pretty much the paralyser.
ZSS has the paralyzer so she can start combos
Giving Pikachu the paralyzer adds more combo abilities to a combo and heavy hitter character
IMO thats not something we need

 

[Wintropy]

Thunderwave is what im talking about, it's pretty much the paralyser.
ZSS has the paralyzer so she can start combos
Giving Pikachu the paralyzer adds more combo abilities to a combo and heavy hitter character
IMO thats not something we need

ZSS has the Paralyzer to facilitate her grab, which is otherwise difficult to land in neutral.

Pikachu's "paralyzer" trades consistent spacing options in favour of an absolute focus, i.e. paralysis.

It isn't a straight upgrade. You still need to balance it with his other moves.

Sorry, friend, but you aren't the final arbiter on what we do and don't need in competitive tournaments.

 

[Rocket-Bot]

ZSS has the Paralyzer to facilitate her grab, which is otherwise difficult to land in neutral.

Pikachu's "paralyzer" trades consistent spacing options in favour of an absolute focus, i.e. paralysis.

It isn't a straight upgrade. You still need to balance it with his other moves.

Sorry, friend, but you aren't the final arbiter on what we do and don't need in competitive tournaments.

never said i was.
But it still functionals similar, some pikachus don't need to space, having a paralyzer flat out is a upgrade depending on playstyles

 

[DunnoBro]

HSB is the issue. Paralyzer is actually really laggy and unsafe to throw out because it can be powershielded + dash grab pika in endlag. The fact pika can throw those out until one works and kill at 60% is the issue imo, not the paralyzer that starts a combo string for his nickle and dime self.

But, I've never really lost to custom pika so I don't know for sure if it's broken. I just know I killed them more often than they killed me when they threw that move out.

 

[Ansou]

Thunderwave is what im talking about, it's pretty much the paralyser.
ZSS has the paralyzer so she can start combos
Giving Pikachu the paralyzer adds more combo abilities to a combo and heavy hitter character
IMO thats not something we need

I know that you were talking about Thunder wave. I'm just saying that having the choice to use Thunder wave is a part of the character just like ZSS' Paralyzer is part of her character. Saying that it isn't a part of the character can't be objectively backed up with any other argument than "custom moves are not the way the game is meant to be played". If you don't think that custom play is what Sakurai intended then you might find some interesting things in the original development slides. Not that Sakurai's intention should really be what decides our competitive ruleset though.

 

[Raijinken]

Thunderwave is what im talking about, it's pretty much the paralyser.
ZSS has the paralyzer so she can start combos
Giving Pikachu the paralyzer adds more combo abilities to a combo and heavy hitter character
IMO thats not something we need

If Zamus isn't a combo and heavy hitting character... then I'm really confused about how the English language is being used here.

If we run this sort of reasoning, which suggests that giving unneeded tools to a character is bad, then is it okay to give needed tools to characters good? What about taking away unneeded tools like Needle Storm and replacing them with weaker alternatives? Can we still give characters customs that entirely consist of functions which already exist on that character (i.e. Monado Arts variants, but not Back Slash Charge because that gives Shulk superarmor? Can Marth have Crescent Slash which redirects and replaces the sweetspot on upB, but not Tornado Thrust because he lacks windboxes?).

Didn't you use "I don't want to learn them" as valid justification against some customs?

Then the point of satire would be to succinctly point out the flaw of that logic by trying it to apply it elsewhere.

If there's something I've learned from Smashboards, it's that anyone who disagrees with you will accuse your satire of being insane troll logic. Logic is only allowed to be universal when it works in your favor, after all.

never said i was.
But it still functionals similar, some pikachus don't need to space, having a paralyzer flat out is a upgrade depending on playstyles

"IMO that's not something we need" conveys subjectivity. In this case, that can be either construed as "I don't like them personally but this has nothing to do with whether or not they are legal," or as "I don't like them (and neither do some other people), so they shouldn't be legal." I think don't think Wintropy's interpretation was unfair.

I know that you were talking about Thunder wave. I'm just saying that having the choice to use Thunder wave is a part of the character just like ZSS' Paralyzer is part of her character. Saying that it isn't a part of the character can't be objectively backed up with any other argument than "custom moves are not the way the game is meant to be played". If you don't think that custom play is what Sakurai intended then you might find some interesting things in the original development slides. Not that Sakurai's intention should really be what decides our competitive ruleset though.

I'm so glad he decided to make Mii customs default. Now if only people would allow Miis.

 

[blackghost]

Less balanced means less competitive. Nobody thinks customs are balanced anymore...

That is entirely untrue. The most loved fighting games such as 3rd strike, marvel vs capcom 2, ultimate marvel vs capcom 3, soul calibur 2, and melee. the games that come the CLOSEST to being unbalanced are the most played and have the longest lives and most players. the term "most competitive" isn't measured by a metric of any kind. just opinions.

 

[Raijinken]

That is entirely untrue. The most loved fighting games such as 3rd strike, marvel vs capcom 2, ultimate marvel vs capcom 3, soul calibur 2, and melee. the games that come the CLOSEST to being balanced are the most played and have the longest lives and most players. the term "most competitive" isn't measured by a metric of any kind. just opinions.

I am not a particularly informed player for any of those but Melee, but mere comment exposure and brief spectating makes me think most of those are not known for their balance, only their skill and depth.

 

[blackghost]

I am not a particularly informed player for any of those but Melee, but mere comment exposure and brief spectating makes me think most of those are not known for their balance, only their skill and depth.

Thats partially true but the most fair street fighter in recent years was ultra 4. That game was never recieved or played to the level third srike was. UMVC 3 is a game that has heavy entrant counts and view counts on stream in comparision more fair games (with arguable similiar depth) in dead or alive, virtue fighter, and tekken dont recieve the same amount of attention dispote being deep, technical, and far more fair than any of the games i mentioned. especially marvel games where you can guess wrong and lose.

 

[Harlow]

I was kind of wishy washy on the issue before EVO and felt like people could just run both at one event, but now I've seen some broken ass **** and realize that the meta can't really survive if customs are the norm.

 

[SoniCraft]

I was kind of wishy washy on the issue before EVO and felt like people could just run both at one event, but now I've seen some broken *** **** and realize that the meta can't really survive if customs are the norm.

Bruh...Have you SEEN default Sheik? How about those ZSS up combos that kill you at 50? Pikachu's Quick Attack shenanigans? What about Luigi's true dthrow to down b combo that kills? There are already plenty of shenanigans in default. If you can get used to the default meta, then you should have no problem getting used to the customs meta.

 

[David Viran]

Bruh...Have you SEEN default Sheik? How about those ZSS up combos that kill you at 50? Pikachu's Quick Attack shenanigans? What about Luigi's true dthrow to down b combo that kills? There are already plenty of shenanigans in default. If you can get used to the default meta, then you should have no problem getting used to the customs meta.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[LancerStaff]

Objectively incorrect.

I know plenty of people, in my local scene and beyond, that are willing to entertain customs.

Please stop making blanket accusations to reinforce your irrational comments.

It's silly.

I'm talking about those who claim they're balanced. Just because people support customs doesn't mean they think they're balanced... Most want them because either A: They think they're directly fun/competitive or B: They're trying to buff their main.

The idea that customs help the overall balance pretty much died with the Diddy nerfs. When we had a bunch of characters catch up to and/or beat number one it was fairly convincing. But now all people see is Shiek being basically in the same spot while the likes of Sonic and Rosalina (who most people IMO think as numbers two and three, wether or not they're true is irrelevant) get better alongside characters like Fox and Pikachu getting into broke territory. Non-customs people don't buy it anymore.

Yes, everyone who disagrees with you is arguing with you right now on this forum.

You can continue pushing this line of logic if you want, but it makes you seem entirely undeserving of the respect required for debate when you can't admit even the silliest of exaggerations.

Just about as soon as you step off of Smashboards the already terrible opinion of customs nosedives. And all the big names publicly trashing them isn't helping either...

That is entirely untrue. The most loved fighting games such as 3rd strike, marvel vs capcom 2, ultimate marvel vs capcom 3, soul calibur 2, and melee. the games that come the CLOSEST to being unbalanced are the most played and have the longest lives and most players. the term "most competitive" isn't measured by a metric of any kind. just opinions.

Melee I know has a ton of arbitrary rules and restrictions within a match with all the freeze glitches and even silly things like Peach's Fspecial... The others I'm not familiar with.

Melee also proves my point. Later versions were less balanced for 1v1 intents, and thus less sought-after. Customs isn't Melee vs Brawl, it's 1.0 vs. 1.2.

So basically people do want unwinnable situations removed and the overall balance to be better, but mechanics in general matter more in the long run.

Bruh...Have you SEEN default Sheik? How about those ZSS up combos that kill you at 50? Pikachu's Quick Attack shenanigans? What about Luigi's true dthrow to down b combo that kills? There are already plenty of shenanigans in default. If you can get used to the default meta, then you should have no problem getting used to the customs meta.

So more jank is better then less? Or are we just including it because it's there?

 

[Jiggly]

Just because jank is already in doesn't mean jank should be the norm. Floodgates don't need to be open because of a select few...


idk, Im starting to become against customs just because it isnt aparant in very many places. As long as miis get custom movesets, I'm good.

 

[blackghost]

Just because jank is already in doesn't mean jank should be the norm.


idk, Im starting to become against customs just because it isnt aparant in very many places. As long as miis get custom movesets, I'm good.

this is exactly how the anti custom crowd wants you to think.

I'm talking about those who claim they're balanced. Just because people support customs doesn't mean they think they're balanced... Most want them because either A: They think they're directly fun/competitive or B: They're trying to buff their main.

The idea that customs help the overall balance pretty much died with the Diddy nerfs.

So more jank is better then less? Or are we just including it because it's there?

The idea tht custom moves help improve the number of vable characters has yet to be refuted. you are more than welcome to try.a wii fit in top 8 at evo suggests more characters can actually compete. no buf has helped low tier chartacter more than customs on. thats a fact.
There is nothing wrong with players wanting thier main to be better thats true in every single fighting game ever. but here uniquely we are CHOOSING to make most of the cast worse than they could be. wnhy? because weak logic runs this commmunity.
The "jank" you are efering to wasn't aparent at evo nor is it apprarent at any custom tournment that i've ever been to at least nothing beyond whats in default. Stop throwing out the buzzword "jank" anything in customs can be explained and its only jank because you refuse to actually learn whats going on so you take the scrubby way out and call it jank.
I actually play with custom moves on and i can tell you there is no custom move as good as boost kick, needles, bouncing fish, or gravity. absolutely none.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Now we're entering a weird terrain.
Apparently characters are allowed to be "jank" in Default but not in Customs.
Because for some reason adding more viable options does not equal increasing balance in some people's minds.

 

[Wintropy]

I'm talking about those who claim they're balanced. Just because people support customs doesn't mean they think they're balanced... Most want them because either A: They think they're directly fun/competitive or B: They're trying to buff their main.

The idea that customs help the overall balance pretty much died with the Diddy nerfs. When we had a bunch of characters catch up to and/or beat number one it was fairly convincing. But now all people see is Shiek being basically in the same spot while the likes of Sonic and Rosalina (who most people IMO think as numbers two and three, wether or not they're true is irrelevant) get better alongside characters like Fox and Pikachu getting into broke territory. Non-customs people don't buy it anymore.

This is truly unfounded logic. Cite verifiable proof that the majority of people outside of Smashboards think customs are inherently bad and maybe we can talk then.

Just about as soon as you step off of Smashboards the already terrible opinion of customs nosedives. And all the big names publicly trashing them isn't helping either...

I'm sorry, I can't take your opinion seriously when you unironically state that the opinion on customs is universally unfavourable.

In my experience, there are a few diehard supporters and a few zealous opponent. The vast majority of the rest are neutral.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

I don't know about Nairo but Zero showed in many occasions that he hate them. Also he's the guy who went ape **** because in his opinion Lucario is too janky or something, do you think his opinion would be objective about customs?

Nairo is anti-customs js, ZeRo asked him on his stream

 

[SoniCraft]

So more viability is better then less? Or are we just including it because it's there?

*Ahem*. Changed your message for you real quick. Don't abuse the word "jank" like it's some real argument. It's only jank because you don't know how to deal with it. If MORE characters have powerful options(what you like to call jank), then MORE characters can be used more reliably, INCREASING their viability. Do you understand yet?

 

[Steelballray]

@ Ansou Objective fact.. It's an objective fact that all stages are part of the game and its an objective fact that time matches is a part of the game, itmes too. Why ain't they allowed? I gotta admit that many of you guys bring up good arguments but this ain't one. Objective facts don't exist. Nothing we make or try to set as a rule is really objective at all. It comes down to what we see as good or bad and that's nothing we can view very objectively. Objectively luck is a part of the game, so why do we use that argument against items? We are just kidding ourselves when we say we want the best result, we all have our preferences and based on them we try to enforce the rules we want.

My preference is that I'm sick of counterpicking I'm every game and I want that away from Smash, @ Raijinken prefer that each player should get to play his character the way he want and so on. Others will want more characters to be viable and others will think customs balance the game well and you think they are a part of the game that should be played and not excluded.

 

[Xeze]

I don't know about Nairo but Zero showed in many occasions that he hate them. Also he's the guy who went ape **** because in his opinion Lucario is too janky or something, do you think his opinion would be objective about customs?

Probably because he sees Lucario as a threat to him. He makes most profit out of smash, of course he is scared of characters that have a chance to dethrone him.

 

[Steelballray]

Probably because he sees Lucario as a threat to him. He makes most profit out of smash, of course he is scared of characters that have a chance to dethrone him.

Meh, I think he's just a salty idiot tbh.

 

[Harlow]

Bruh...Have you SEEN default Sheik? How about those ZSS up combos that kill you at 50? Pikachu's Quick Attack shenanigans? What about Luigi's true dthrow to down b combo that kills? There are already plenty of shenanigans in default. If you can get used to the default meta, then you should have no problem getting used to the customs meta.

None of that **** is that difficult to deal with. And even if it was, "these aspects of the vanilla meta are broken ergo we should just play with am even more broken meta" is not a valid argument for customs.

 

[LancerStaff]

The idea tht custom moves help improve the number of vable characters has yet to be refuted. you are more than welcome to try.a wii fit in top 8 at evo suggests more characters can actually compete. no buf has helped low tier chartacter more than customs on. thats a fact.
There is nothing wrong with players wanting thier main to be better thats true in every single fighting game ever. but here uniquely we are CHOOSING to make most of the cast worse than they could be. wnhy? because weak logic runs this commmunity.
The "jank" you are efering to wasn't aparent at evo nor is it apprarent at any custom tournment that i've ever been to at least nothing beyond whats in default. Stop throwing out the buzzword "jank" anything in customs can be explained and its only jank because you refuse to actually learn whats going on so you take the scrubby way out and call it jank.
I actually play with custom moves on and i can tell you there is no custom move as good as boost kick, needles, bouncing fish, or gravity. absolutely none.

The idea that customs hurt just as many characters also hasn't been refuted. The WFT only as well as they did because WFT herself was obscure. Had WFT been treated as a high tier beforehand and people prepared accordingly then the results would of been much different.

Many people have their heads in a bubble. All they see is what their character can do, and how far up they'd move with customs without taking into account what other characters gain. Thing is that people just assume the placements of the tiers themselves don't move, but in reality when most of the cast gets buffs it has little overall effect because everybody is getting buffs.

Patches haven't really hurt characters viability either, especially after the first one.

EVO especially was lacking in people who used customs...

So we can add more jank just because there's other jank? Logic.

Now we're entering a weird terrain.
Apparently characters are allowed to be "jank" in Default but not in Customs.
Because for some reason adding more viable options does not equal increasing balance in some people's minds.

Where's the magical off button for Shiek and Sonic? Where's this balance that almost no good player sees? And why should we play it when we have no reason to play customs on when customs off is widely seen as the more fun option?

This is truly unfounded logic. Cite verifiable proof that the majority of people outside of Smashboards think customs are inherently bad and maybe we can talk then.

I'm sorry, I can't take your opinion seriously when you unironically state that the opinion on customs is universally unfavourable.

In my experience, there are a few diehard supporters and a few zealous opponent. The vast majority of the rest are neutral.

Japan refuses to play with them for starters. Pretty much a whole country decided to not use customs almost immediately. Their best players even refused to play at EVO because of the rules... I don't think there's any "household names" in support of customs besides M2K. So we have a country and our best players against them. Shall I continue?

*Ahem*. Changed your message for you real quick. Don't abuse the word "jank" like it's some real argument. It's only jank because you don't know how to deal with it. If MORE characters have powerful options(what you like to call jank), then MORE characters can be used more reliably, INCREASING their viability. Do you understand yet?

Wrong. "Jank" gets stages banned all the time. As far as Smash players are concerned there doesn't even need to be a concrete reason to ban something, and this can't be stopped because people set up events with the intent of attracting as many players as possible and not making a logical decision on what's the best for the metagame. Customs players will play with defaults... Default players won't play with customs.

 

[wizrad]

Now we're entering a weird terrain.
Apparently characters are allowed to be "jank" in Default but not in Customs.
Because for some reason adding more viable options does not equal increasing balance in some people's minds.

I'm pretty sure there have been some people in here saying that they don't want balance… so… all they want is customs to be off to facilitate an unbalanced game for them to take advantage of?

None of that **** is that difficult to deal with. And even if it was, "these aspects of the vanilla meta are broken ergo we should just play with am even more broken meta" is not a valid argument for customs.

Customs are even easier to deal with than Sheik. Sheik is a good character in every situation. Windkong may be the last airbender, but he's still too slow and big to be much of a threat.

 

[Wintropy]

Japan refuses to play with them for starters. Pretty much a whole country decided to not use customs almost immediately. Their best players even refused to play at EVO because of the rules... I don't think there's any "household names" in support of customs besides M2K. So we have a country and our best players against them. Shall I continue?

Yes, if you can cite valid reasons as to why this means everybody else has to follow their example.

So what if the Japanese competitive scene doesn't use customs? "Japan" (because apparently a few top-level players speak for the entire nation) refuses to play Ike, too. Guess Ike isn't viable because "Japan" says so. How about "Japan"'s perspective on Omega stages? Should we just play on Omega stages because that's what "Japan" does?

"Their best players refused to go". Then what in the world were aMSa, Rain, Nietono and Abadango doing there? Even if they don't agree with customs as a ruleset and criticised it before the event, they still went. Abadango even placed fourth! Doesn't seem like customs hurt him there. It was still a fair fight and he did well, ruleset issues or otherwise.

Why does it even matter if "household names" criticise customs? What, we should just do everything that the top players tell us to do because they know better? "Well, ZeRo said customs don't work, he's smart, guess I am just gonna follow ZeRo's order to the letter!" That doesn't prove that everybody outside of Smashboards is against customs, it just means that the top players who disavow customs can shout at a higher pitch than the players in support. Why do the opinions of ZeRo and Ally outweigh the views of the ordinary plebeians who think that maybe we should try it out?

In spite of their opinions, top-level players still went to EVO and still did well. Nothing out of the ordinary happened in Top 8, customs or otherwise. The people who abused the system were eliminated relatively quickly and things settled down into normalcy thereafter. There's good reason to believe Ally could have done even better had he decided to use customs instead of being stubborn just to make a point - that, shock and horror, didn't outright snuff out the pro-customs movement.

People still support customs because we are capable of making our own decisions without the need to blindly follow the opinions of top players. The fact that you seem intent on demonstrating to the contrary is a sad indictment of the state of this customs debate as it is right now, with people drawn into arbitrary camps based on delusional optimists on this hand and follow-the-leader ethics on the other. That's a shame. Yet it's become totally apparent to me that you won't change your mind, or even entertain the concept that customs could be considered anything other than fundamentally broken. Good day to you, sir. I am done with you.

 

[ConsummateK]

Why would shouting at a higher pitch be useful?

Regardless, I think it comes down to which scenario promotes more variety. As I understand it, all things considered, non-custom SSB4 has pretty decent variety tier wise. Yes, Shiek currently dominates the meta, but we really need to understand that that meta is nowhere near complete. Hell, DK has started climbing up lists thanks to cargo throw and M2K.

We've only really had one look at customs (EVO) and parts of it seemed a bit silly. There where match ups that appeared OP or cheesy, but if we're going to say the non-custom meta isn't well developed then we sure as **** can't say the custom one is. Who knows what solutions could present themselves to the issues that appeared at EVO.

What it really comes down to is limiting variables. I think people like the idea of non-customs because it allows the meta to mature at a faster rate. We know what we're dealing with, and it's showing some positive signs of diversity (although we'll see how the whole Shiek thing plays out) where if we go to customs we're basically hitting reset in terms of understanding the game at a competitive level.

 

[LancerStaff]

Yes, if you can cite valid reasons as to why this means everybody else has to follow their example.

So what if the Japanese competitive scene doesn't use customs? "Japan" (because apparently a few top-level players speak for the entire nation) refuses to play Ike, too. Guess Ike isn't viable because "Japan" says so. How about "Japan"'s perspective on Omega stages? Should we just play on Omega stages because that's what "Japan" does?

"Their best players refused to go". Then what in the world were aMSa, Rain, Nietono and Abadango doing there? Even if they don't agree with customs as a ruleset and criticised it before the event, they still went. Abadango even placed fourth! Doesn't seem like customs hurt him there. It was still a fair fight and he did well, ruleset issues or otherwise.

Why does it even matter if "household names" criticise customs? What, we should just do everything that the top players tell us to do because they know better? "Well, ZeRo said customs don't work, he's smart, guess I am just gonna follow ZeRo's order to the letter!" That doesn't prove that everybody outside of Smashboards is against customs, it just means that the top players who disavow customs can shout at a higher pitch than the players in support. Why do the opinions of ZeRo and Ally outweigh the views of the ordinary plebeians who think that maybe we should try it out?

In spite of their opinions, top-level players still went to EVO and still did well. Nothing out of the ordinary happened in Top 8, customs or otherwise. The people who abused the system were eliminated relatively quickly and things settled down into normalcy thereafter. There's good reason to believe Ally could have done even better had he decided to use customs instead of being stubborn just to make a point - that, shock and horror, didn't outright snuff out the pro-customs movement.

People still support customs because we are capable of making our own decisions without the need to blindly follow the opinions of top players. The fact that you seem intent on demonstrating to the contrary is a sad indictment of the state of this customs debate as it is right now, with people drawn into arbitrary camps based on delusional optimists on this hand and follow-the-leader ethics on the other. That's a shame. Yet it's become totally apparent to me that you won't change your mind, or even entertain the concept that customs could be considered anything other than fundamentally broken. Good day to you, sir. I am done with you.

Why should we follow Japan and top players? Why should we even use customs in the first place? You asked for examples of the opinion of customs being terrible and now you interpret my words as something completely different... I never said that it was a major reason to not use customs.

And even then... Do you believe the results of the competitive viability poll are accurate? In fact, who should we listen to on what the game actually is if not the most experienced? It's one thing to parrot the snap-judgements of the DLC characters... It's another to repeat their reasons for their conclusions. When the best players are all saying the same thing, what does that tell you?

First of all, you admitted that they weren't happy with the rules, and secondly the amount of top level players actually using customs was quite low compared to what the actual customs meta should be. Situations like this don't arise naturally... By all means, had more people (and by that I mean good players and not people just spamming like it's for Glory) actually used customs then the results would of been massively different. Had people used customs, honestly, the overall opinion of customs would be much worse.

Probably the biggest reason the whole customs movement is slowly dying is because customs players go to non-customs events readily when the opposite quite clearly isn't true.

 

[SoniCraft]

Why would shouting at a higher pitch be useful?

Regardless, I think it comes down to which scenario promotes more variety. As I understand it, all things considered, non-custom SSB4 has pretty decent variety tier wise. Yes, Shiek currently dominates the meta, but we really need to understand that that meta is nowhere near complete. Hell, DK has started climbing up lists thanks to cargo throw and M2K.

We've only really had one look at customs (EVO) and parts of it seemed a bit silly. There where match ups that appeared OP or cheesy, but if we're going to say the non-custom meta isn't well developed then we sure as **** can't say the custom one is. Who knows what solutions could present themselves to the issues that appeared at EVO.

What it really comes down to is limiting variables. I think people like the idea of non-customs because it allows the meta to mature at a faster rate. We know what we're dealing with, and it's showing some positive signs of diversity (although we'll see how the whole Shiek thing plays out) where if we go to customs we're basically hitting reset in terms of understanding the game at a competitive level.

I think this is actually very insightful to lots of problems people have with a customs meta. People crying foul over certain moves and strategies? That's not new; that's happened in every other smash game, but because people gave it time, counterplay developed and those "OMG OP JANK" strategies didn't seem so bad soon enough. Anti-customs players aren't willing to hit the reset button the the Smash 4 meta, and pro-customs players are. Although, it's actually not even a complete reset, but there are so many new variables to take into account it kinda feels like it. I just think more people should give them a better chance. @ LancerStaff said it himself: not many people at EVO were properly using custom moves in their gameplay, so the picture we got of the meta wasn't what it REALLY should be. Therefore, it can be argued we haven't seen enough evidence that custom moves are too "broken", "unbalanced", or whatever else you want to say about the gameplay elements.

Oh also Lancerstaff, about stages. Sorry, but we ban stages for specific reasons that don't really relate to custom moves. As competitors, we want to have the smallest influence possible from the stage on the fight going between us and our opponent. Yes you could argue battlefield has platforms that influence the fight going on, but those are stationary and can be easily adapted to for any character. Nobody wants to fight on a stage where there are obstacles that severely hinder a battle between two players because then it becomes a battle against the opponent AND the stage. With custom moves, the battle situation remains character vs character, player vs player, just with possibly different moves to take into consideration. It's not like you're suddenly playing somebody with 5 specials. No, they still have 4, they are just different from their defaults, and if you're done your research and practice, then you should have no issue dealing with those moves. If you feel like you're fighting against custom moves and not players, then you're likely overestimating those moves and need to learn how to deal with them.

 

[Ansou]

@ Ansou Objective fact.. It's an objective fact that all stages are part of the game and its an objective fact that time matches is a part of the game, itmes too. Why ain't they allowed? I gotta admit that many of you guys bring up good arguments but this ain't one. Objective facts don't exist. Nothing we make or try to set as a rule is really objective at all. It comes down to what we see as good or bad and that's nothing we can view very objectively. Objectively luck is a part of the game, so why do we use that argument against items? We are just kidding ourselves when we say we want the best result, we all have our preferences and based on them we try to enforce the rules we want.

My preference is that I'm sick of counterpicking I'm every game and I want that away from Smash, @ Raijinken prefer that each player should get to play his character the way he want and so on. Others will want more characters to be viable and others will think customs balance the game well and you think they are a part of the game that should be played and not excluded.

Yes, all stages, items and equipment are all a part of the game. That is indeed an objective fact. They should be allowed by default until we give valid reasons for why they should be banned. The thing is that we do have valid reasons to have them banned (except for some stages that people just decided to ban because they didn't want to deal with them, kind of like custom moves). These things are banned because they don't work that well in a competitive environment (or if you want to use the words "broken"/"uncompetitive" I guess that's fine). Some stages are banned because some stages make circle camping a really viable strategy which is uncompetitive because the match then is all about getting the first hit. Some other stages are banned because they have too intrusive elements that are unpredictable or interfere with the battles too much. Items are banned because they spawn at random places which makes skill much less important in a match. Of course this is something we want to avoid in a competitive environment. Custom moves however, have not been proven to have any of these problems, which is why we should have them legal.

By the way, you did not answer my question about DLC and unlockable characters. I am seriously curious to why we allow them if being a part of the game is not a good enough reason.

 

[LancerStaff]

I think this is actually very insightful to lots of problems people have with a customs meta. People crying foul over certain moves and strategies? That's not new; that's happened in every other smash game, but because people gave it time, counterplay developed and those "OMG OP JANK" strategies didn't seem so bad soon enough. Anti-customs players aren't willing to hit the reset button the the Smash 4 meta, and pro-customs players are. Although, it's actually not even a complete reset, but there are so many new variables to take into account it kinda feels like it. I just think more people should give them a better chance. @ LancerStaff said it himself: not many people at EVO were properly using custom moves in their gameplay, so the picture we got of the meta wasn't what it REALLY should be. Therefore, it can be argued we haven't seen enough evidence that custom moves are too "broken", "unbalanced", or whatever else you want to say about the gameplay elements.

Oh also Lancerstaff, about stages. Sorry, but we ban stages for specific reasons that don't really relate to custom moves. As competitors, we want to have the smallest influence possible from the stage on the fight going between us and our opponent. Yes you could argue battlefield has platforms that influence the fight going on, but those are stationary and can be easily adapted to for any character. Nobody wants to fight on a stage where there are obstacles that severely hinder a battle between two players because then it becomes a battle against the opponent AND the stage. With custom moves, the battle situation remains character vs character, player vs player, just with possibly different moves to take into consideration. It's not like you're suddenly playing somebody with 5 specials. No, they still have 4, they are just different from their defaults, and if you're done your research and practice, then you should have no issue dealing with those moves. If you feel like you're fighting against custom moves and not players, then you're likely overestimating those moves and need to learn how to deal with them.

Officially that's how it works. But take a gander at the stage discussions... You see completely BS excuses like "too many traveling stages" and stuff in any borderline stage. But then reality kicks in and TOs choose what's perceived as fun rather then what's "better" to draw in players.

Yeah, people don't know what customs really can do... But would people's opinion on it improve if they saw everything? From what I see of the characters that actually matter, I'm going to say no since it just further makes characters dependent on select moves.

 

[Ansou]

Officially that's how it works. But take a gander at the stage discussions... You see completely BS excuses like "too many traveling stages" and stuff in any borderline stage. But then reality kicks in and TOs choose what's perceived as fun rather then what's "better" to draw in players.

Yeah, people don't know what customs really can do... But would people's opinion on it improve if they saw everything? From what I see of the characters that actually matter, I'm going to say no since it just further makes characters dependent on select moves.

My experience with peoples attitudes to custom moves is that they become more okay with them the more they actually try them out and play against them. I was completely anti-customs until I actually tried them out and so was my local scene until I actually convinced them to try it.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The idea that customs hurt just as many characters also hasn't been refuted. The WFT only as well as they did because WFT herself was obscure. Had WFT been treated as a high tier beforehand and people prepared accordingly then the results would of been much different.

I'd really like you to elaborate on the reason of this part, it sounds like you're saying it's a bad thing that people lose to obscure strategies when that happens all the time. At any meta, any game, any time.

Many people have their heads in a bubble. All they see is what their character can do, and how far up they'd move with customs without taking into account what other characters gain. Thing is that people just assume the placements of the tiers themselves don't move, but in reality when most of the cast gets buffs it has little overall effect because everybody is getting buffs.

Dem Blanket Statements again...
First, I'm a TO, meaning I can not make decisions based on personal gain.
Second, I currently have no main, I effectively use Random and if I get to choose, I do mostly MK, Sonic and a dash of Lucina. One gets annoying buffs (that become useless if he doesn't have the lead), the other gets sidegrades, and one of them only gets more bad matchups.
At least I'll talk for myself and say that I personally don't gain anything, but I consider there's a lot of hidden potential for Customs. Even if they are as bad as some people claim, it hasn't been fully explored yet.

Patches haven't really hurt characters viability either, especially after the first one.

EVO especially was lacking in people who used customs...

So its meta didn't really develop. At all.

So we can add more jank just because there's other jank? Logic.

We can add things that are just as good as other things that are commonly accepted.
That would be judging each move based on their values, instead of only their status of "Default" or "Custom".

Where's the magical off button for Shiek and Sonic? Where's this balance that almost no good player sees?

You might not be viewing it like we do, because it's not about a single button, it's about a RULE.
Rules indicate what can and cannot be done in order to have a fair competence experience. And fairness does not (or at least shouldn't) ban things because we don't like them.
Rules are made after putting some thought to it, and we got some clear conclusions like the fact that Stock is more fair than Time, that we need a timer for Stock matches, that Friendly Fire adds depth and so on, and then there are rules that are not as clear, such as stock/time, the legal stages, and usage of Miis and/or Custom moves; they are not clear because there are several options and more than one of them are fair.
I personally think that allowing every character to have their strongest non-game-breaking tools and (and thus allowing actual competition) is more fair than having a select few to have them simply because they are unlocked at the beginning.

MAYBE that's the part most people are missing.[/color[

And why should we play it when we have no reason to play customs on when customs off is widely seen as the more fun option?

FFAs with Items on High is WAY funnier, and furthermore, the game was designed AND balanced around that.



Might edit in the rest later, but I'm not really too interested in the following points, specially because some people addressed them already.

 

[Raijinken]

Yes, if you can cite valid reasons as to why this means everybody else has to follow their example.

So what if the Japanese competitive scene doesn't use customs? "Japan" (because apparently a few top-level players speak for the entire nation) refuses to play Ike, too. Guess Ike isn't viable because "Japan" says so. How about "Japan"'s perspective on Omega stages? Should we just play on Omega stages because that's what "Japan" does?

"Their best players refused to go". Then what in the world were aMSa, Rain, Nietono and Abadango doing there? Even if they don't agree with customs as a ruleset and criticised it before the event, they still went. Abadango even placed fourth! Doesn't seem like customs hurt him there. It was still a fair fight and he did well, ruleset issues or otherwise.

Why does it even matter if "household names" criticise customs? What, we should just do everything that the top players tell us to do because they know better? "Well, ZeRo said customs don't work, he's smart, guess I am just gonna follow ZeRo's order to the letter!" That doesn't prove that everybody outside of Smashboards is against customs, it just means that the top players who disavow customs can shout at a higher pitch than the players in support. Why do the opinions of ZeRo and Ally outweigh the views of the ordinary plebeians who think that maybe we should try it out?

In spite of their opinions, top-level players still went to EVO and still did well. Nothing out of the ordinary happened in Top 8, customs or otherwise. The people who abused the system were eliminated relatively quickly and things settled down into normalcy thereafter. There's good reason to believe Ally could have done even better had he decided to use customs instead of being stubborn just to make a point - that, shock and horror, didn't outright snuff out the pro-customs movement.

People still support customs because we are capable of making our own decisions without the need to blindly follow the opinions of top players. The fact that you seem intent on demonstrating to the contrary is a sad indictment of the state of this customs debate as it is right now, with people drawn into arbitrary camps based on delusional optimists on this hand and follow-the-leader ethics on the other. That's a shame. Yet it's become totally apparent to me that you won't change your mind, or even entertain the concept that customs could be considered anything other than fundamentally broken. Good day to you, sir. I am done with you.

Not only that, but Abadango used Customs. Not for Pac-Man because those sets were hastily thrown together without considering the negative sides to Meteor Trampoline, but this representative of a nation that actually plays extremely close to For Glory rules ran customs without a problem. Nairo also used customs, though why he swapped out one of Zamus's best tools was beyond me.

You might not be viewing it like we do, because it's not about a single button, it's about a RULE.
Rules indicate what can and cannot be done in order to have a fair competence experience. And fairness does not (or at least shouldn't) ban things because we don't like them.
Rules are made after putting some thought to it, and we got some clear conclusions like the fact that Stock is more fair than Time, that we need a timer for Stock matches, that Friendly Fire adds depth and so on, and then there are rules that are not as clear, such as stock/time, the legal stages, and usage of Miis and/or Custom moves; they are not clear because there are several options and more than one of them are fair.
I personally think that allowing every character to have their strongest non-game-breaking tools and (and thus allowing actual competition) is more fair than having a select few to have them simply because they are unlocked at the beginning.

I consciously enter almost every match without placing my token on the Sheik On button.

Aside from that, consider this a quote for emphasis, because it's generally true.

Though, in a few cases, I'd change the word "fair" to "accurate as a metric of skill". Time is a completely fair mode in and of itself (technically Sudden Death is, too, but it redirects skill to luck), but stock is a more accurate measure of skill. Just like free choice of special moves results in a more accurate measure of character power, which is another detail which actually is not directly conducive to measuring skill.

 

[Steelballray]

Yes, if you can cite valid reasons as to why this means everybody else has to follow their example.



Why does it even matter if "household names" criticise customs? What, we should just do everything that the top players tell us to do because they know better? "Well, ZeRo said customs don't work, he's smart, guess I am just gonna follow ZeRo's order to the letter!" That doesn't prove that everybody outside of Smashboards is against customs, it just means that the top players who disavow customs can shout at a higher pitch than the players in support. Why do the opinions of ZeRo and Ally outweigh the views of the ordinary plebeians who think that maybe we should try it out?

In spite of their opinions, top-level players still went to EVO and still did well. Nothing out of the ordinary happened in Top 8, customs or otherwise. The people who abused the system were eliminated relatively quickly and things settled down into normalcy thereafter. There's good reason to believe Ally could have done even better had he decided to use customs instead of being stubborn just to make a point - that, shock and horror, didn't outright snuff out the pro-customs movement.

People still support customs because we are capable of making our own decisions without the need to blindly follow the opinions of top players. The fact that you seem intent on demonstrating to the contrary is a sad indictment of the state of this customs debate as it is right now, with people drawn into arbitrary camps based on delusional optimists on this hand and follow-the-leader ethics on the other. That's a shame. Yet it's become totally apparent to me that you won't change your mind, or even entertain the concept that customs could be considered anything other than fundamentally broken. Good day to you, sir. I am done with you.

I hate this **** omg.

1-Top players despite being whiny a lot of the time are the top players for a reason. Their opinion is more important than yours. They faced customs in the biggest stages and they know how it is to deal with them. They don't have to lose to them so then their opinion against them would be taking seriously. And yeah, even if they complained about them AFTER they lost you'd say they're salty and didn't practice against them enough or some stupid ****. Actually the fact that they did win must mean that they are not doing this out of saltiness and they have valid reasons to hate and want them out.

2-Top players opinions>Your opinions

Like I said, they are the top players for a reason. they devoted their lives to the game and they spend countless hours training to be as good as they are now. Your opinion and theirs are not equal. You play it for fun and to fit in with your crew or whatever and they do it as a job. You think your opinions weigh the same? "Why do the opinions of ZeRo and Ally outweigh the views of the ordinary plebeians who think that maybe we should try it out?" please.. spare me the idealistic bull****. This is not how things work. this is now how the world work.

If a few top players supported customs you'd be all over the place bringing up their names and using their arguments. People cling so hard to M2K's name and he aint **** when its about Smash 4.

Of course their opinions shouldn't be the be all end all of things but their point of views should be appreciated if only just because of the effort they put into the game.

pls stop making ****ty idealistic arguments that has no weight in the real life thanks.

@ Raijinken So because top players think customs are bad they shouldnt use them? When your life and income depends on whether you win or lose you do everything you are capable of to win. Its not their fault that they were forced to play a ruleset that think is stupid.

How is he not viable? He is at the very least top 15.

 

[Raijinken]

@ Raijinken So because top players think customs are bad they shouldnt use them? When your life and income depends on whether you win or lose you do everything you are capable of to win. Its not their fault that they were forced to play a ruleset that think is stupid.

If you're trying to win, you use what will give you the best chance. If you're given months of time to practice, theorycraft, and compete, to decide what will give you that chance, then there are two possible results:
1) The top players decided that customs were not good enough to use, and thus were comfortable in their ability to beat this "broken jank" with moves/characters they considered superior, or
2) The top players decided that, rather than use their best options, they would be stubborn and ignore them out of some self-righteous code or principle.

Obviously, Zero beat all of the "broken jank," Sheik included.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but nobody forces anyone to play in any given tournament. If they were so against the ruleset, they could have functionally boycotted it and not competed, and gotten their money elsewhere (or simply later), as they are now doing in the customs-off meta. Clearly despite their objections, they all still competed, not everyone used Sheik, and some people even used customs.

How is he not viable? He is at the very least top 15.

He went from undisputed first to at the very least top fifteen. That is a significant drop in viability. Lancer's claim was that this had not happened, to which Diddy is the counterevidence.

 

[Kerenthar]

What is the point of an "undecided" option? If someone is "undecided" then just don't vote