What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[Ansou]

I've been absent from this discussion for a while now, so I'm just going to reply to a lot of posts now instead.

Having pre-made custom sets probably saves a lot of time, but I do feel 1 or 2 sets being left for personal choices could be a good idea(if unlocking all customs wasn't such a hassle).

I do think, however, that the custom movesets being put in 10 slots is a bit flawed. I preferred the original idea of having the last 2 spots empty for people with unusual combinations to load their builds. I know the custom movesets cover the "best builds," although that is according to the players who post here. Not allowing the other moves to be used that don't make the cut - regardless of how unlikely someone is to use that one move - nutters the idea of playing with customizable fighters.

I agree and pretty much everyone does. The Custom Moveset Project encourages tournaments to allow 3DS import to slot 9 and 10 and that is what most TOs should follow. EVO was pretty much the only tourney that limited the users to the premade sets and that was only because of logistical concerns (which would probably not even have been a real problem, but EVO is EVO and they are usually concerned about pretty much everything).

My objections to customs in tournaments are that they make the gameplay centralize around a few powerful exploits rather than good fundamental gameplay, they take an unreasonable amount of time to unlock, the make the game less balanced overall and they make setup for tourneys take longer.

Powerful exploits:
Let me start by saying if you played Brawl with anyone lower than a high tier you know how annoying this kind of thing can be. Take Wolf for example, an otherwise viable character who gets screwed by chain grabs. The DDD MU is -3 for Wolf purely because DDD's grab game. Even really good Wolfs like Kain have trouble getting past it; there simply isn't a good way to combat them with certain characters. CGs were often 0-death.
Fortunately in SSB4 the creators learned from Brawl's powerful exploits or "jank" and removed chain grabs and other things like ledge mechanics which allowed planking, etc. Try playing most characters vs a planking Meta Knight in Brawl; it was so bad that special rules reducing the times MK could grab the ledge were made. I think everyone generally agrees SSB4 is the best balanced smash game with most characters being able to potentially win or place top 8 in tournaments. This is largely because SSB4 is less janky than Brawl. Sheik and pre-patch Diddy were nowhere near as bad as Brawl's MK was. Customs brings the jank back.
Look at villager's customs (trip sapling+exploding balloons); the return of planking. This isn't to say it can't be beat but I am saying it will dominate most games because planking puts the opponent at a disadvantage and gives villager an easy reset at every ledge. Going to a ledge, usually a bad tactic because it gives away stage control, becomes an easy reset that can be rinsed and repeated. Many characters will take a lot of damage getting around this and then villager can run to the other ledge or scrooge under the stage and do it again.
With SSB4's mechanics of Dthrow>Uair>upB-esk combos customs can lead to 0-death setups. For example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJcIxv_QukE (Hoo-Haw anyone?)
Also you have to consider that customs when used with a competitive mindset are very hard to punish but easy to use. Seagull Joe (not a DK player) basically trolled Average Joe, a good DK player by showing DK's custom upB is better than fundamental gameplay and beat him in dittos at a tournament:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yynXqx03VY&feature=youtu.be
He proved his point about customs being powerful exploits the game will revolve around.
Top players don't dislike customs because they don't know how to use them. Top player dislike customs because they know customs better than anyone and how the competitive mindset is about exploiting the opponent as much as possible safely. Customs will make fundamentals less prevalent and spamming dominant.

Time to unlock.
I see people calling others who complain about unlocking customs lazy and think: have you unlocked every custom move? I have and my solo gameplay time is 101 hours. Playing classic, allstar, target blast, trophy rush, etc with every character (I did beat other challenges too). 101 hours is longer than it took me to beat Final Fantasy 10 the first time. I know you can use a turbo controller on target blast with Ganon but that requires a person buy a turbo controller. And what about 3DS players?
It takes a few hours at most to unlock every stage and character but dozens of hours to unlock every custom. Unlocking time is a legit complaint.

Less balanced:
I know people say "Sheik is already jank" but that's no reason to add more jank. Try using a low tier and chasing down DK's whirling cyclone; it's hard. The added jank only moves a few characters up because they can exploit jank. For every character moved up another must move down. Giving some character, many who are high tiers, exploits makes the characters who have bad MUs vs them in vanilla smash have even worse MUs. After the sorting is settled out the bad characters in customs will be less viable than without them. Sure customs raise characters like Wii Fit Trainer by jank like sweeping sun saturation and jumbo hoops but they make characters without jank customs have a worse time.

Longer setups:
Anytime you add more setup steps it takes longer. In less populated regions where people bring wii Us they might not have every custom unlocked.

___________________________________________________
Customs are very fun, don't get me wrong. I enjoy them. But they're not the way to go for tournaments. This is why casual players like them but tournament players don't. Use them in friendlies and smashfests but don't force them in tournaments.

Custom moves are not over-centralizing. Some moves are centralizing to the point where you actually have to practice dealing with them, but so are default moves. They are not over-centralizing as they don't take over the high level meta. As for Average Joe vs. Seagull - perhaps Average Joe didn't have enough experience fighting against Kong Cyclone? The move is overwhelming at first, but once you know how to deal with it, it becomes ridiculously weak. I did watch the match, and it looked like both players were just trolling around. Neither of them seemed to actually the Character as they normally would.

I think Custom offs meta focuses more in character development while Custom On meta focuses more in match-up knowledge, I could see tournament goers prefering custom off meta, since the top priority from a player is improving his fundamentals, custom off meta provides less variables because you dont have to worry about things like wind kong or stalliger.

Another thing is that it could be pretty hard for some people is to find let say a good stalliger in his region, in a way it's kind of unfair that you get punished because no one plays that character with that customs, so if a top 10 player drowns in a tournament pool to a mediocre player because of a custom, can we say its healthy for the meta? will go like "lol he should have spent less time improving his character and more in learning customs"

This could be said about characters as well. I don't have a good Diddy Kong player in my region so I have a hard time getting practice against that character. Do I want to ban Diddy Kong just because of that? No. Even when customs are turned off, you need matchup knowledge. It's not like knowing matchups is something new that is only a thing when customs are turned on.

I find it amazing that you guys are still fighting an almost lost cause. If pro-customs were winning I would have stopped arguing, maybe even started practising with them already or dropped Sm4sh for good.
Even disregarding the existence of "janky" customs, I still can't see them to be that good of a thing anyways. There are 55 characters that get patched and changed regularly, and there will soon be a couple more added to the game. It's not that easy to adapt to all of that. It's not as bad as you make it out to be for people to want simpler things. I know this ain't melee or brawl and that it's different than the rest, but people have always envisioned Smash as that straight up game where you go and kick the opponents *** out of the stage. Its more than normal for people to want it to remain the same. There are million of people playing LoL and Dota so you have to admit that people don't generally hate complexity blindly. They just think it's bad when it's related to Smash, their beloved simple game.
There is also the fact that Customs are heavily associated with equipments which is just enough proof for most people that theyre meant for causal play. It's just too hard to change people's first impressions, since most of the time first impressions are pretty much the last impressions.

Only thing that I think could have changed people's opinions of them is that if all characters had about equally good customs. But you see many characters with utterly useless customs and DLC characters having none and there you have the final nail on the coffin.

The reason that I continue to argue for customs is because I have still not lost hope for them. Yes, many TOs have decided to ban them, but all logic says that they should be allowed.

Thats what I was saying. If its about making low tiers viable than thats going to happen because the patches and because people will discover new tricks and playstyles to make them low tiers viable.

If its about depth, than I see no depth that can be achieved using them, and in reverse we get to deal with campy villager, HSB Pika and windkong. I don't see how the trade off is worth it.

To be honest, the reason why I want customs to be legal is neither about balancing nor depth. It's because they are a part of the game. This is the exact same reason why I want DLC characters to be legal. They are not legal just because they add depth or balance to the game. They are legal because they are a part of the game. I don't see why we need a reason other than that to allow custom moves.

I am not interested in scouring Twitter for a couple hours to find quotes, but /at least/ ZeRo, Dabuz, ESAM, Nakat, Ally, and all of the top Japanese players are against customs. Off the top of my head.

Except we already did this? We were running customs tournaments for months in preparation for EVO. We gave them a chance, decided that we didn't like them, and stopped using customs.

We gave them a chance, found out that they are perfectly fine and then stopped using them after EVO was over without specifying a good reason for it.

if i may ask, do you have quotes of these pro players against customs? or perhaps where it was from and when? not saying i don't believe you, but arguments becomes much stronger with evidence to back it up. and ill give you that, customs should not be allowed/disallowed based on entitlement, but on what it can do for the competitive scene. But, in my opinion, before we can judge what customs will do in a competitive scene, they have to be ALLOWED in a competitive scene first. my thoughts on it are as follows
1. give customs a whirl at competitive scene.
2. after a good amount of time passes (3 months is a good amount i think) reevaluate customs, based on tournament standings, popular customs builds, and any changes in the tier list.
3. Look at the results, and make our decision from there.

again, i could care less if the meta was anti or pro customs, but i don't want to condemn something before we have given it a fair try.

I would say that we try custom moves and stop using them if and only if they actually cause real problems for the competitive scene (which is yet to be seen). Now people just banned them even though they didn't cause any real problems.

Because equipment is randomly created... I have 100+ Godly Sacred Treasures between both games, all with different stats. You can only hold 3000 pieces per game, and that's much less then the near infinite number of possible equipment. There wasn't a "get 30 X" challenge in regards to equipment, although there are notifications to getting X amount of different bonus effects.

And that was pretty half-***ed. Zard didn't need a nerf, and Dragon Rush is still the better move.

Miis, nobody outside of Nintendo/Namco knows what to do. I think we can all agree it's a different argument.



And nothing else significant has changed, unless you count Fox's completely unnecessary custom blaster buffs.

Literally the only things patched so far were infinites, another way to ruin doubles, glitches of all kinds, and largely unnecessary buffs to "match" the default getting a buff.

Luma only KOs at 0 in extreme situations.... Plenty of other single hit moves would KO at 0% between max rage and the knockback multiplier for hitting people charging a Smash. That's not special at all.



Care to explain how less relevant options is better?



You're effectively banning default play by keeping customs on just as hard as you're banning Palutena by keeping customs off. There's a big difference between a ban and a in-game option.

You're not banning playing with the default movesets just because customs are on. You're not even banning "default play". If both players are using default movesets (which happens pretty often in customs tourneys at this point of the meta), then that is default play. If default play can happen in a tourney, that must mean that it isn't banned.

Where are you guys going to watch csotm matches these days? Any streams still using them? east coast and west coast (far as I can tell) have abandoned them. As any cusotm player knows knowledge is the key, anyone know a stream where i can watch some custom tournaments happen?
And wow this thread was entertaining to read.

The streams I know of that uses customs are Shieldbreakers (Stockholm) and NextLevelStreaming (Kansas). Shieldbreakers have them legal at pretty much any event that is not titled Dragon Smash. Here are Shieldbreakers' Youtube and NextLevelStreaming's Youtube.

I'd like to cite Armada as reference to how this isn't true. He prefered to play peach for years until he realised people finally started to learn the matchup. He then had to switch to fox(mainly for Leffen) because he knows that in order to keep competing at a top level he must play the better matchup. It may be preference at first but top players will eventually play the best set for the matchup if a clear best set exist.

Note that this only applies in top level play. Also note how old Melee was when he switched to Fox.

 

[Rocket-Bot]

What's wrong with people having different set preferences anyway? I'd say a Shulk ditto with one using decisive arts and one using hyper arts, not to mention the three other moves they could be using, is more interesting than both having all the same moves.

And before you say I'm arguing from a spectator's perspective remember it's the competitors' choice whether or not to use the same set.

Ok the competitors can use the same set to entertain the crowd sure. I never said it's wrong I said that it's based on preferences for the moves.

I'd like to cite Armada as reference to how this isn't true. He prefered to play peach for years until he realised people finally started to learn the matchup. He then had to switch to fox(mainly for Leffen) because he knows that in order to keep competing at a top level he must play the better matchup. It may be preference at first but top players will eventually play the best set for the matchup if a clear best set exist.

What Paranoid droid said.

 

[LancerStaff]

You're not banning playing with the default movesets just because customs are on. You're not even banning "default play". If both players are using default movesets (which happens pretty often in customs tourneys at this point of the meta), then that is default play. If default play can happen in a tourney, that must mean that it isn't banned.

Glad to see you agree with me.

But you also have to see the impact customs have. Let's say we turn on a bunch of safe items... They're not intrusive to those who don't want to use them because you can just not use them. That doesn't mean your opponent can't use them, however. Customs on doesn't include customs off like items on doesn't include items off. The game isn't the same.

So if we "cut content" by turning off items and banning stages, why can't be do the same with customs?

 

[Ansou]

Glad to see you agree with me.

But you also have to see the impact customs have. Let's say we turn on a bunch of safe items... They're not intrusive to those who don't want to use them because you can just not use them. That doesn't mean your opponent can't use them, however. Customs on doesn't include customs off like items on doesn't include items off. The game isn't the same.

So if we "cut content" by turning off items and banning stages, why can't be do the same with customs?

Because we don't turn off items or ban stages for the reason of cutting content. We do it because they are broken or uncompetitive. Items are broken because they spawn at random points on the stage and some stages are broken for various reasons. Custom moves have not been proven to be broken nor uncompetitive.

 

[LancerStaff]

Because we don't turn off items or ban stages for the reason of cutting content. We do it because they are broken or uncompetitive. Items are broken because they spawn at random points on the stage and some stages are broken for various reasons. Custom moves have not been proven to be broken nor uncompetitive.

Less balanced means less competitive. Nobody thinks customs are balanced anymore...

 

[Ansou]

Less balanced means less competitive. Nobody thinks customs are balanced anymore...

Because Pikachu has HSB and Rosaluma has some decent custom moves? I would still say that the cast becomes a little bit more balanced with customs as lower tier characters benefit more than higher tier characters, but even if it would be slightly less balanced that wouldn't mean that customs are uncompetitive. If custom moves would make one character god tier and all other characters trash in comparison, I would obviously not be in support of customs, but that is certainly not the case. If we would ban Smashville, the game might actually become slightly more balanced as it is seen as Sheik's best stage. But we don't ban things because they make the game slightly less balanced.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Less balanced means less competitive. Nobody thinks customs are balanced anymore...

Nobody who actually plays customs regularly thinks they are not.

 

[Raijinken]

Less balanced means less competitive. Nobody thinks customs are balanced anymore...

I think

Nobody who actually plays customs regularly thinks they are not.

'd.

At the absolute worst, there are a handful I think could be put under consideration once people stop johning and start searching for counterplay. Those are, full list, the specific two-move combination of Extreme Balloon Trip and Timber Counter. Not even Pikachu fishing for Thunder Wave setups into Heavy Skull Bash is as broken as Zamus going for ceaseless grabs until she lands one for a stock.

 

[oldkingcroz]

Sure customs aren't balanced. But so is vanilla smash 4... Both modes are severely unbalanced...

I would rather play a game where Wii Fit, Palutina, DK, Mega Man, Ike, Kirby, Game and Watch, Mii Brawler, Marth, Link, and others get HEAVY buffs, and have Rosalina/ Pikachu/ Sheik get 1 or 2 good customs. It's unbalanced in customs on and off, but more characters are "viable" in custom on.

 

[LancerStaff]

Because Pikachu has HSB and Rosaluma has some decent custom moves? I would still say that the cast becomes a little bit more balanced with customs as lower tier characters benefit more than higher tier characters, but even if it would be slightly less balanced that wouldn't mean that customs are uncompetitive. If custom moves would make one character god tier and all other characters trash in comparison, I would obviously not be in support of customs, but that is certainly not the case. If we would ban Smashville, the game might actually become slightly more balanced as it is seen as Sheik's best stage. But we don't ban things because they make the game slightly less balanced.

Not slight lol. More fall out of viable then those that enter.

Nobody who actually plays customs regularly thinks they are not.

Except not really because the argument went from "more balance is better" to "we should play it because it's a part of the game" after EVO. Yaknow what's a part of the game? The customs off button.

 

[Raijinken]

Not slight lol. More fall out of viable then those that enter.



Except not really because the argument went from "more balance is better" to "we should play it because it's a part of the game" after EVO. Yaknow what's a part of the game? The customs off button.

Actually if you hit the button that says Customs Off, it turns Customs On.

Anyways, petty semantics that imply we should play Time aside, care to list those that utterly fall out of viable? Last I checked, me running Crescent Slash doesn't make Sheik's fair any less obscene.

I also am waiting for objective proof that customs make the game less balanced, when balance itself is subjective.

 

[LancerStaff]

Actually if you hit the button that says Customs Off, it turns Customs On.

Anyways, petty semantics that imply we should play Time aside, care to list those that utterly fall out of viable? Last I checked, me running Crescent Slash doesn't make Sheik's fair any less obscene.

I also am waiting for objective proof that customs make the game less balanced, when balance itself is subjective.

As in "we're not using customs off."

Same petty semantics are the crux of the argument for customs... When it's not the garbage "moar options" nonsense anyway.

MK, Ryu and Diddy off the top of my head. Most characters who actually gain from customs either don't gain enough to matter or go from great to excellent.

Objectively Customs aren't being balanced properly. Nobody in their right mind thinks that customs will be as balanced as defaults by the time the patches stop.

 

[Steelballray]

@ Ansou you said you want customs in cause they're a part of the game, but who are you to decide that, and then say that equipments are not? It doesn't work like that. And if you really think they provide neither depth nor balance (which is what competitive play needs) I have to say that your argument here is the weakest. No more than fake entitlement to what you think is a part of the game. Not that much better than the arguments most anti-customs people bring if you ask me.

 

[Raijinken]

@ Ansou you said you want customs in cause they're a part of the game, but who are you to decide that, and then say that equipments are not? It doesn't work like that. And if you really think they provide neither depth nor balance (which is what competitive play needs) I have to say that your argument here is the weakest. No more than fake entitlement to what you think is a part of the game. Not that much better than the arguments most anti-customs people bring if you ask me.

Equipment might not even be that bad. But unlike customs, it's not finite.

That said, I'd support competition with equipment. The only relevant argument against it besides its non-finite nature, in my opinion, is that it actually introduces additional properties (exploding shield, first-hit intangibility, etc) which are not represented in the "core" game. Contrast moves, which alter but do not add to core gameplay in the mechanical sense.

Heck, equipment adds even more of that personal flair and variety to characters, and can change the stage control disparity between characters with moveset items and those without. If you could actually get finite equipment (or, for instance, only allow challenge-grid guaranteed equipment that is universally available), I'd see no reason to ban it. The only reason the Pokemon comparison flops is because everything in Pokemon is actually finite. To all our knowledge, equipment isn't.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

Equipment might not even be that bad. But unlike customs, it's not finite.

That said, I'd support competition with equipment. The only relevant argument against it besides its non-finite nature, in my opinion, is that it actually introduces additional properties (exploding shield, first-hit intangibility, etc) which are not represented in the "core" game. Contrast moves, which alter but do not add to core gameplay in the mechanical sense.

Heck, equipment adds even more of that personal flair and variety to characters, and can change the stage control disparity between characters with moveset items and those without. If you could actually get finite equipment (or, for instance, only allow challenge-grid guaranteed equipment that is universally available), I'd see no reason to ban it. The only reason the Pokemon comparison flops is because everything in Pokemon is actually finite. To all our knowledge, equipment isn't.

Sorry, but you are crazy if you think equipmemt is balanced.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Except not really because the argument went from "more balance is better" to "we should play it because it's a part of the game" after EVO. Yaknow what's a part of the game? The customs off button.

Wait, what? How did you even got to that conclusion?
It's not only about having "more options", it's about having more VIABLE options.
The sentiment of "I want to chose between my Rosalina and my Wii Fit Trainer", with Default Movesets one option is clearly the only VIABLE one while the other is pointless at large scale, but it changes with Customs where both are Viable and you can mix them up to improve your results.
Even better, you do not simply say "81 possible combinations, yaz!", it is a whole "I need to choose between a punishing move like default paralyzer and an anti-camping tool like the Custom Blaster" kind of process.

What I really mean is that, yes, it's good to have more options, but adding for the sake of adding is no help. The Custom metagame adds more VIABLE variables to a game without breaking it. Probably so many variables that some people get scared of how wildly different it becomes.

 

[Steelballray]

Equipment might not even be that bad. But unlike customs, it's not finite.

That said, I'd support competition with equipment. The only relevant argument against it besides its non-finite nature, in my opinion, is that it actually introduces additional properties (exploding shield, first-hit intangibility, etc) which are not represented in the "core" game. Contrast moves, which alter but do not add to core gameplay in the mechanical sense.

Heck, equipment adds even more of that personal flair and variety to characters, and can change the stage control disparity between characters with moveset items and those without. If you could actually get finite equipment (or, for instance, only allow challenge-grid guaranteed equipment that is universally available), I'd see no reason to ban it. The only reason the Pokemon comparison flops is because everything in Pokemon is actually finite. To all our knowledge, equipment isn't.

If you're implying they should be experimented with then uh... We might as well waste time experimenting with items too. I know you're trying to be as open-minded as possible but it feels to me that there is a line to be set.. Not only will equipments change the game into something DRASRICALLY different (Different weights and physics and attributes like shield breaking and whatever wacky thing we know for sure they'll have) but you know they will cause the game to be messed up beyond belief.

We just have drastically different views. I, and most others don't care about this personal flavour you keep speaking so idealistically about. There are many games that provide you the ability to fix up your characters how you wish, Smash isn't designed around these things and it does not get balanced based on them at all.

 

[Raijinken]

Sorry, but you are crazy if you think equipmemt is balanced.

I thought it rather clear from my post that I feel the lack of player-by-player parity in equipment availability is imbalanced and does not cater to fair competition. That said, I'm positive I'm crazy, if not in that way. I apologize if my wording was vague.

If you're implying they should be experimented with then uh... We might as well waste time experimenting with items too. I know you're trying to be as open-minded as possible but it feels to me that there is a line to be set.. Not only will equipments change the game into something DRASRICALLY different (Different weights and physics and attributes like shield breaking and whatever wacky thing we know for sure they'll have) but you know they will cause the game to be messed up beyond belief.

We just have drastically different views. I, and most others don't care about this personal flavour you keep speaking so idealistically about. There are many games that provide you the ability to fix up your characters how you wish, Smash isn't designed around these things and it does not get balanced based on them at all.

Experimenting with items like this?

Like I said. I don't think equipment is fair because it's not finite, and like I apparently failed to convey, that leads to a lack of access parity between players, which is decidedly noncompetitive. I think using a finite and universal list, such as those obtained from the challenge grid, skips that issue, but I don't think Smooth Lander adds as much as movesets do so I'm not inclined to fight for it or any other equipment effects.

I'm aware of many of those games that let me tweak my character. That's why I'm a Dota player, roguelike fan, etc. But this game also lets me do that. That's why it makes no sense to me to quench a game property that appeals to me as a player.

Smash 4 is balanced around 4-player free for alls in Japan, and maybe even only on Final Destination/For Glory results. If we're to boil the game down to what it's balanced and designed for, we've got a lot of rules to undo. But that's not how our competitions work. They work by adding unique but non-interfering stage options to add player-influenced depth and counterplay for characters who would have none on Final Destination. Kinda like customs.

 

[jet56]

hmm, how about before we talk about crazy stuff like making equipment legal, we discuss how we are going to implement customs. baby steps there sir.

 

[Takehiko]

I'm for customs. We won't fully know about customs until we fully test them and use them in tourneys. This way people can find more strats for them and actually have them put into practice. By them not being commonly allowed then we fall into this reasoning that everything that is found for customs is just a reason to further ban them. It is when we finally grit our teeth and accept that this is part of the game and put our time into working through it that we become a better community.

 

[LancerStaff]

Wait, what? How did you even got to that conclusion?
It's not only about having "more options", it's about having more VIABLE options.
The sentiment of "I want to chose between my Rosalina and my Wii Fit Trainer", with Default Movesets one option is clearly the only VIABLE one while the other is pointless at large scale, but it changes with Customs where both are Viable and you can mix them up to improve your results.
Even better, you do not simply say "81 possible combinations, yaz!", it is a whole "I need to choose between a punishing move like default paralyzer and an anti-camping tool like the Custom Blaster" kind of process.

What I really mean is that, yes, it's good to have more options, but adding for the sake of adding is no help. The Custom metagame adds more VIABLE variables to a game without breaking it. Probably so many variables that some people get scared of how wildly different it becomes.

Because that's what happened. People gave up on the balance idea long ago... So now it's the stupid "use it because it there" argument. People who say they're more balanced get laughed at.

Problem is that people aren't going to use "meh" options, they're going to use what's optimal for the matchup because it's that easy to switch. It's like the Pit and Dark Pit situation... Matchups are measured by the more fitting of the two instead of separately. The best Pit players don't go "lol imma use edgy against Shiek" unless they're Nairo. There's effectively just as many matchups with customs on as customs off, and very little counterplay exists when players are sufficiently knowledgable. So you end up with with worse balance and more objectively unfun strategies and moves to deal with.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Because that's what happened. People gave up on the balance idea long ago... So now it's the stupid "use it because it there" argument. People who say they're more balanced get laughed at.

So... are you saying that the problem is not the argument but the discussion itself where at least one part simply plugs their ears, don't care about the point and forces the other to go with the dumbest possible answer just boiling down both sides?
Because as far as I know, more VIABLE options = more overall balance.

Problem is that people aren't going to use "meh" options, they're going to use what's optimal for the matchup because it's that easy to switch. It's like the Pit and Dark Pit situation... Matchups are measured by the more fitting of the two instead of separately. The best Pit players don't go "lol imma use edgy against Shiek" unless they're Nairo. There's effectively just as many matchups with customs on as customs off, and very little counterplay exists when players are sufficiently knowledgable. So you end up with with worse balance and more objectively unfun strategies and moves to deal with.

I'm not sure how to respond to this because it's pretty off and it's taking my point places, and I'm not a fan of making debates unnecessarily complex and getting tangents and strawmen all over the place... But I'll bite for now.

You're not completely wrong in which most matchups are not too different on many fundamental levels so you might only need to learn like, one or two Custom Moves per character that you know are optimal/popular. But then you say there is no counterplay when in this case you just get counterplayed yourself. There is always an answer, and if your opponent found their answer to certain problematic Matchup(s), why won't you to find your own? Whether it's a Custom Move, a different strategy, or even a different character. That's PRECISELY what I was talking about when mentioning "VIABLE" options.

objectively unfun strategies and moves to deal with.

*plugs ears*
IMO WE SHOUL DUSE DEM COSTUMS BCAUSE OPTIONS DER AN WE CN JUST TURNIT ON AND THEN FWOOSHAWMAGICS AN U CANT STOP ME NOW

 

[Raijinken]

So you end up with with worse balance and more objectively unfun strategies and moves to deal with.

So balance (subjective) changes and you are now the authority on what is an unfun strategy and move to deal with? Please tell me you hate Needles, Bouncing Fish, Sonic, and Dabuz's entire playstyle so I can side with you.

Oh wait. That's not how competitive rules work.

 

[Rashyboy05]

The term "fun" is subjective. The only "unfun" custom imo is Extreme Balloon Trip just because I dislike camping. And even then, most top level Sonics have a campy playstyle in the default metagame so should I just propose to ban Sonic just because I hate camping?

 

[DunnoBro]

Lancerstaff has proven time and time again he isn't fit for debate.

"Nobody thinks customs are balanced anymore?"

Then who are you arguing it isn't balanced with? Lmao

 

[Rocket-Bot]

Why does everyone keep saying "Oh I don't like this so imma ban it u want to ban everything lol"
That's not how this customs debate topic works, you see, the bouncing fish for shiek and what not, is how their character works. Like
ZSS: is supposed to have a paralyzer to start combo, because she revolves around combos
Pikachu does too, but giving him the option of a paralyzer makes him more ridiculous.
Banning everything is not the solution, but banning somethings are necessary, so we can all play the same metagame.

 

[LancerStaff]

So... are you saying that the problem is not the argument but the discussion itself where at least one part simply plugs their ears, don't care about the point and forces the other to go with the dumbest possible answer just boiling down both sides?
Because as far as I know, more VIABLE options = more overall balance.



I'm not sure how to respond to this because it's pretty off and it's taking my point places, and I'm not a fan of making debates unnecessarily complex and getting tangents and strawmen all over the place... But I'll bite for now.

You're not completely wrong in which most matchups are not too different on many fundamental levels so you might only need to learn like, one or two Custom Moves per character that you know are optimal/popular. But then you say there is no counterplay when in this case you just get counterplayed yourself. There is always an answer, and if your opponent found their answer to certain problematic Matchup(s), why won't you to find your own? Whether it's a Custom Move, a different strategy, or even a different character. That's PRECISELY what I was talking about when mentioning "VIABLE" options.


*plugs ears*
IMO WE SHOUL DUSE DEM COSTUMS BCAUSE OPTIONS DER AN WE CN JUST TURNIT ON AND THEN FWOOSHAWMAGICS AN U CANT STOP ME NOW

Just an observation. I imagine people gave up on the balance idea because they don't think they're balanced anymore.

It's not more viable options when people won't use anything but the best for the situation. You're playing the same game with pseudorandom buffs and nerfs. There's no more variety with then without... People don't care about these sub-matchups that will never be played. And in Smash counter play is non-existant with or without customs. It basically boils down to how much you want to tier... Yaknow.

It's the cherry on the **** cake. There's all these other problems, minor benefits at best and then we get different flavors of needles, a better Luma, and Hammer Spindash to deal with.

So balance (subjective) changes and you are now the authority on what is an unfun strategy and move to deal with? Please tell me you hate Needles, Bouncing Fish, Sonic, and Dabuz's entire playstyle so I can side with you.

Oh wait. That's not how competitive rules work.

There's no button to turn off Shiek, Sonic and Dabuz. There is a button to turn off Heavy Skull Bash, Extreme Balloon Trip and Dongnado. It's like how we handle stages... Competitive-ness is highly subjective. Fun I'd say is less so. And ultimately everything "uncompetitive" is also unfun, so when you look at why stages actually do get banned it boils down to "isn't fun." Just look at the stage discussion topics and ask how often stages are banned for problems instead of people just not liking them. May not be logical, but that's how things are actually run.

Lancerstaff has proven time and time again he isn't fit for debate.

"Nobody thinks customs are balanced anymore?"

Then who are you arguing it isn't balanced with? Lmao

You guys are the last ones lol.

 

[Wintropy]

You guys are the last ones lol.

Objectively incorrect.

I know plenty of people, in my local scene and beyond, that are willing to entertain customs.

Please stop making blanket accusations to reinforce your irrational comments.

It's silly.

The term "fun" is subjective. The only "unfun" custom imo is Extreme Balloon Trip just because I dislike camping. And even then, most top level Sonics have a campy playstyle in the default metagame so should I just propose to ban Sonic just because I hate camping?

The terminal conflation of "subjective" and "objective" seems to be a failing point of the customs debate.

Until that's addressed, we're just going in semantic circles.

Which isn't fun either.

But even that in itself is subjective.

 

[Rocket-Bot]

Please stop making blanket accusations to reinforce your irrational comments.

It's silly.

>Says stop making accusations
>Made the accusation of me wanting to ban everything just because I'm lazy

 

[DunnoBro]

You guys are the last ones lol.

Yes, everyone who disagrees with you is arguing with you right now on this forum.

You can continue pushing this line of logic if you want, but it makes you seem entirely undeserving of the respect required for debate when you can't admit even the silliest of exaggerations.

>Says stop making accusations
>Made the accusation of me wanting to ban everything just because I'm lazy

I'm not sure to what you're referring to, but "blanket accusations" are a bit different and more problematic than just "accusations"

 

[Wintropy]

>Says stop making accusations
>Made the accusation of me wanting to ban everything just because I'm lazy

Please stop with the ad hominem attacks. If you aren't going to contribute wholesome responses for debate, I suggest you go somewhere else.

I never said that, either. That's an absolute rational fallacy. You cited people's disinterest and lack of desire to unlock customs as a vindication of your opinion that customs should be banned. That is a redundant theory and I rebutted it in kind. If you can't accept that, I don't know what to tell you, except that that's how debate works.

 

[Rocket-Bot]

Please stop with the ad hominem attacks. If you aren't going to contribute wholesome responses for debate, I suggest you go somewhere else.

I never said that, either. That's an absolute rational fallacy. You cited people's disinterest and lack of desire to unlock customs as a vindication of your opinion that customs should be banned. That is a redundant theory and I rebutted it in kind. If you can't accept that, I don't know what to tell you, except that that's how debate works.

I'm not attacking you, I'm just pointing it out. And you said literally "I don't want to fight blah, why not ban it?" Which was implying that everything should be banned, and that it was my preference.

 

[Wintropy]

I'm not attacking you, I'm just pointing it out. And you said literally "I don't want to fight blah, why not ban it?" Which was implying that everything should be banned, and that it was my preference.

Yes, that was satire.

Satire is also part of debate.

Incidentally, you did cite an ad hominem in a serious debate.

That isn't good debate.

 

[Rocket-Bot]

Yes, that was satire.

Satire is also part of debate.

Incidentally, you did cite an ad hominem in a serious debate.

That isn't good debate.

Please explain how satire is good in a debate, because we're not having a laugh are we?
Explain to me how I cited a ad hominem as a point against customs? I didn't. I just wanted to point that out that you're assuming someone made an accusation even though you did as well

 

[DunnoBro]

Please explain how satire is good in a debate, because we're not having a laugh are we?
Explain to me how I cited a ad hominem as a point? I didn't. I just wanted to point that out.

Didn't you use "I don't want to learn them" as valid justification against some customs?

Then the point of satire would be to succinctly point out the flaw of that logic by trying it to apply it elsewhere.

 

[Rocket-Bot]

Didn't you use "I don't want to learn them" as valid justification against some customs?

Then the point of satire would be to succinctly point out the flaw of that logic by trying it to apply it elsewhere.

No, that's taking it out of context, I said " you're not going to memorize every single custom move" I didn't say "I don't want to learn them" I said "Nobody is going to know them all"

 

[DunnoBro]

No, that's taking it out of context, I said " you're not going to memorize every single custom move" I didn't say "I don't want to learn them" I said "Nobody is going to know them all"

The fact you're saying nobody will memorize them all when it's most definitely possible just comes off as "I don't want to memorize them" to me though.

Because I can tell you I've definitely memorized each custom. It's pretty easy considering you just need to remember the default, which customs are just variations of generally.

Like, do you forget all the specials from melee? Or moves from other games? You'd be surprised how many "moves" your brain actually has memorized.

 

[Rocket-Bot]

The fact you're saying nobody will memorize them all when it's most definitely possible just comes off as "I don't want to memorize them" to me though.

Because I can tell you I've definitely memorized each custom. It's pretty easy considering you just need to remember the default, which customs are just variations of generally.

Like, do you forget all the specials from melee? Or moves from other games? You'd be surprised how many "moves" your brain actually has memorized.

Interesting, perhaps I doubted some people. Like wintropy said that he would learn all custom moves and I thought to myself "oh well he's an exception" The only ones that I remember are the one ness has.

But I still don't think they have a place in tournaments, they're full of shenanigans with random wind boxes, and most of them are flat out useless, like the jigglypuff rest replacements and the Up Bs without hitboxes. And shulk's power counter, the forwarded counter on that is ridiculous.

 

[DunnoBro]

Interesting, perhaps I doubted some people. Like wintropy said that he would learn all custom moves and I thought to myself "oh well he's an exception" The only ones that I remember are the one ness has.

I mean you learn moves kind of fast when you play vs them in tournament lol

But I still don't think they have a place in tournaments, they're full of shenanigans with random wind boxes, and most of them are flat out useless, like the jigglypuff rest replacements and the Up Bs without hitboxes. And shulk's power counter, the forwarded counter on that is ridiculous.

You know, I kind of agree about some customs... But the fact you think it's the "random windboxes" and harmless, useless moves making customs seem less competitively appealing makes me question how much you've played them.

It just sounds like the same knee-jerk reactions Ive been hearing forever to stuff like gust cape and breezy flight that turn out to be ineffective in practice anyway.

 

[Wintropy]

Interesting, perhaps I doubted some people. Like wintropy said that he would learn all custom moves and I thought to myself "oh well he's an exception" The only ones that I remember are the one ness has.

I ain't a he. ;3

But I still don't think they have a place in tournaments, they're full of shenanigans with random wind boxes, and most of them are flat out useless, like the jigglypuff rest replacements and the Up Bs without hitboxes. And shulk's power counter, the forwarded counter on that is ridiculous.

I don't understand this argument. It's your opinion and I respect that, but it doesn't really hold up rationally.

What, in your honest opinion, does have a place in tournaments?