What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[Raijinken]

I don't think it's THAT simple. I don't think TOs will bother making a side event that the same characters and players in the main event are going to be winning. The 100m hurdles and 300m hurdles only LOOK similar. The muscles you have to be training to compete in each are different, so I don't think this compression of yours is all that valid.

Here's a question: do you think players in a customs side event should be required to use customs or not?

Personally, I don't think they should be forced to use customs (in part because this would require a rule exception for DLC characters, either by making them illegal or making them exempt from the requirement), but I can see why the question makes sense: It's not like we ever let individuals enter Doubles (though obviously the disadvantage of doing so, unless a stock adjustment is implemented, far outweighs the disadvantage of competing in customs without using them).

Of course, if we ever reached the theoretical "one ideal set per character" situation, then I would feel differently (and thus would support forcing the use of customs). But while we haven't reached that point, I think requiring the use of customs is inconsistent with my own reason for wanting customs (to allow player's choice, style, and knowledge to show forth in further unique selections from a wider pool of possibilities).


And to the Dota/League comparison, I was comparing that more from a taste stance. I view customs-off as a watered down version of customs-on just as I view League as watered down Dota. The settings, and viable strategies, are different in both (as everyone likes to point out, Villager can't plank in customs-off, but fewer characters can effortlessly edgeguard Ganondorf in customs-on), and in turn, that creates new dynamics that appeal to some people and not others (My League friends don't like being chain-stunned to death in Dota, and my Dota friends don't like how someone three inches from you is gone for good unless you take Flash in League). Of course, in such cases where one game is literally a derivative of the other, I suppose it's a bit more like comparing Smash 4 to Smash 64. But even then, gameplay is similar, yet divergent, and I feel the comparison is appropriate.

In case that was too convoluted, adding customs adds to the tactical variety and potential matchup depth, creating a higher mental skill floor which some find appealing, and some don't.

 

[wizrad]

I still don't get why people are declaring customs as dead after/because of Evo when apparently nothing happened at Evo other than customs being on. Exactly what the customs supporters predicted would happen happened: a meta that basically reflected the standard meta, with the rise of some characters due to custom moves. So what's the problem again?

 

[SoniCraft]

I still don't get why people are declaring customs as dead after/because of Evo when apparently nothing happened at Evo other than customs being on. Exactly what the customs supporters predicted would happen happened: a meta that basically reflected the standard meta, with the rise of some characters due to custom moves. So what's the problem again?

People are stubborn and don't want to do the extra work needed to prepare for a Customs On meta. Customs are a pain to unlock; that fact is fairly hard to dispute. And I guess some people don't like them because their mains don't get any customs, or at least any worth using.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

I don't think it's THAT simple. I don't think TOs will bother making a side event that the same characters and players in the main event are going to be winning. The 100m hurdles and 300m hurdles only LOOK similar. The muscles you have to be training to compete in each are different, so I don't think this compression of yours is all that valid.

Here's a question: do you think players in a customs side event should be required to use customs or not?

The comparison to hurdles IS valid because the same athletes compete in both! I competed at state level in both events in highschool and it's just an alternate version of the same race.
They have slight variations the you must focus on, but so do customs. Shot and disk are even similar, the long jump and triple jump always have the same people in it and use the same technique, and what's the point of the high jump if we have the pole vault? It's all subjective and it doesn't matter what you think, your arguments mean nothing because the people want them even if you can PROVE that they are too similar (whatever that is) they will still exist due to fan base.

Here is an idea, since the people who do customs are more liberal anyways, what if customs had our own stage lists?.... Hmm?... I hear everyone complaining about our small stage list and this could be a place to expand it and make the meta even more different. I bet the people here arguing on the pro custom side would love to add more stages to the list!

 

[wizrad]

100-man Smash is pretty hard, so I think we should ban Wario, too. Actually, we should ban Mr. Game & Watch and Final Destination from Melee because they're too hard to unlock, as well. You know what? All unlockables should be banned! There, now everyone can play competitively without the hassle of actually having to play the game. How fair and easy!

 

[MrGame&Rock]

I made an offer in my local scene to supply custom setups from the Project, time will tell what the response is going to be. I'm not exactly optimistic but it doesn;t hurt to try

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

I made an offer in my local scene to supply custom setups from the Project, time will tell what the response is going to be. I'm not exactly optimistic but it doesn;t hurt to try

Idk why not if YOU are willing to setup... If the turn you down you should get a reason so you know they aren't just spiteful

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Idk why not if YOU are willing to setup... If the turn you down you should get a reason so you know they aren't just spiteful

I'm expecting either "yes, that would be fantastic!" or "no thanks, we appreciate it but we'd rather not use customs" and at this point while I'd prefer the former, I'm okay with either.

 

[Raijinken]

The comparison to hurdles IS valid because the same athletes compete in both! I competed at state level in both events in highschool and it's just an alternate version of the same race.
They have slight variations the you must focus on, but so do customs. Shot and disk are even similar, the long jump and triple jump always have the same people in it and use the same technique, and what's the point of the high jump if we have the pole vault? It's all subjective and it doesn't matter what you think, your arguments mean nothing because the people want them even if you can PROVE that they are too similar (whatever that is) they will still exist due to fan base.

Here is an idea, since the people who do customs are more liberal anyways, what if customs had our own stage lists?.... Hmm?... I hear everyone complaining about our small stage list and this could be a place to expand it and make the meta even more different. I bet the people here arguing on the pro custom side would love to add more stages to the list!

While I myself am in both the pro-customs camp and the pro-large-FLSS camp, I don't think that's accurate of most people (think of each possible Smash rule having a circle in a venn diagram, I don't think any of them are fully subsets of any other). It's certainly an option, and for that matter, it's possible that the metas could (eventually) diverge enough that what's stupid or legal in one meta could be fair or broken in the other. Nothing springs to mind, but I can't fully discount the possibility.

Then again, my group is weird. About half of us use customs, and the rest don't (no correlation with mains, our WFT/Mario main doesn't touch 'em). The ones who don't use them don't mind playing against them (though everyone has a general competitively irrelevant dislike of stall play). But in that same group, stage preferences are very different. Our Palutena main (pro customs) is very stage conservative (one of those "Eh may as well go Smashville every match" players), as is my brother (Little Mac/Ryu, and doesn't use customs). The rest of the group is fine with MK8, Skyloft, Wuhu, Kalos, Stadium, and a few are even fine with Gamer.

So yea, to reitterate. I'd be all for such theory (because I think the ruleset needs more revision than just customs on), but I don't think there's necessarily a correlation between stage and moveset liberal-ness.

I think that for now, we should try to have customs tours, where 2 players have to agree on the usage of custom moves so they can use it. If one of the two players doesn't want to deal with that for a matter of knowledge or something, that's fine.
Let all players enough time to adapt to most customs, then decide something. We must take it slowly & hope for the best.

Can I do that for characters and stages, too? Cuz I don't want to have to deal with Sheik's jank or Smashville's stupid f-air kill strings.

 

[blackghost]

If custom moves return in smash 5 and are unlocked form the start do you guys think we'd see a similiar backlash?

 

[Raijinken]

If custom moves return in smash 5 and are unlocked form the start do you guys think we'd see a similiar backlash?

Probably. It would be more to learn, after all.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

If custom moves return in smash 5 and are unlocked form the start do you guys think we'd see a similiar backlash?

Well if they were all unlocked from the start, equipment was tossed, and they got rid of the "customs on" switch then they would probably be allowed regardless of how conservative people wanted to be

 

[Steelballray]

If custom moves return in smash 5 and are unlocked form the start do you guys think we'd see a similiar backlash?

If they looked more "official" (not associsated with equipments) and the design team seemed to put about the same amount of effort into all characters customs I think no. People would like customs more.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

If they looked more "official" (not associsated with equipments) and the design team seemed to put about the same amount of effort into all characters customs I think no. People would like customs more.

Agreed, they could have implemented them so much I better than they did... Then again sakuri has never really liked competitive gaming so maybe this was on purpose lol. More sakuri trolling

 

[MrGame&Rock]

If the stars align it's possible this might happen in a patch for this game. I mean if someone who knew Sakurai and was a competitive player basically said "we as a competitive community want to use this cool feature you put in your game, but we can't because of all these logistical and menu-based hurdles, and we would all adore you if you patched the game to allow us to more easily use this feature that you put so much effort into putting in the game" then this could be a thing that happens within the smash 4 lifespan. Unfortunently, M2K aside IDK anyone who would be in a position to say that to Sakurai, but I have a feeling that he would do it if he knew that it would make customs the standard. It'd be like if the competitive community found a hypothetical, menu-based solution that would make items palatable, at least from Sakurai's PoV. idk, maybe I'm just too optimistic.

 

[Steelballray]

If the stars align it's possible this might happen in a patch for this game. I mean if someone who knew Sakurai and was a competitive player basically said "we as a competitive community want to use this cool feature you put in your game, but we can't because of all these logistical and menu-based hurdles, and we would all adore you if you patched the game to allow us to more easily use this feature that you put so much effort into putting in the game" then this could be a thing that happens within the smash 4 lifespan. Unfortunently, M2K aside IDK anyone who would be in a position to say that to Sakurai, but I have a feeling that he would do it if he knew that it would make customs the standard. It'd be like if the competitive community found a hypothetical, menu-based solution that would make items palatable, at least from Sakurai's PoV. idk, maybe I'm just too optimistic.

Waiting for the game to get hacked is much more realistic than that.. Although yeah that would be cool.
Unlock time OP daddy sakurai please nerf.

 

[DunnoBro]

Well RAM editing is possible now. Once it becomes streamlined there might be some sm4sh related codes to help with this.

 

[oldkingcroz]

Is that TO one of the poeple trying to sell the BS "miis aren't real characters"?
That ruleset sounds awful. on a side note what customs do the yoshis run?

One of our guys almost always use Egg launch. They might also use the side B variant, but to be fair- they're all not the best move in the world that's for sure.

As for the TO- he's more against customs as a whole, because some of the top tiers get good customs (we have 3 good Rosalinas- Light being one of them who got 49th at EVO in Melee, our current #1 on our PR Zander, and a dude rising up the PR ranks MEEE). Our unofficial "best" dude Rubino plays custom Sheik & Marth, and trust me, he is really good with them (won Aug's customs monthly only losing 1 match, but missed some of the earlier PR opportunities).

Not to mention customs are a hassle to get, not conducive for newer players, and can be used in hyper defensive play like Villager/ Duck Hunt, I can see his point. Still I'm for customs, despite the downsides.

 

[DunnoBro]

Duck hunt's customs don't let him play more defensive at all. He gets more aggressive since he gives up a walling tool for a combo set-up that gives him a lot of incentive to actually approach. =p

Zigzag is almost unusable in neutral and his camping/keepoutl game is wayyy worse. (the main reason MVD and most other duck hunts think it's bad)

Mega gunmen helps him be more defensive in certain MUs, but only in the context of them not approaching either since it just blocks projectiles and doesn't wall out actual approaches at all.

 

[Raijinken]

Duck hunt's customs don't let him play more defensive at all. He gets more aggressive since he gives up a walling tool for a combo set-up that gives him a lot of incentive to actually approach. =p

Zigzag is almost unusable in neutral and his camping/keepoutl game is wayyy worse. (the main reason MVD and most other duck hunts think it's bad)

Mega gunmen helps him be more defensive in certain MUs, but only in the context of them not approaching either since it just blocks projectiles and doesn't wall out actual approaches at all.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't the mega gunmen actually make some approaches more effective due to the extended hitbox duration, like the statues in Castle Siege/Luma?

 

[DunnoBro]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't the mega gunmen actually make some approaches more effective due to the extended hitbox duration, like the statues in Castle Siege/Luma?

It can hurt/help them. But it hurts most standard aerial approaches though due to increased hitlag.

It makes multi hit moves like mario dair and ness fair WAY worse approaches/landing options, I can recognize the startup and throw out a smash.

However meaty hitboxes like falcon fsmash/dash attack get way better and more annoying. Extends/enlarges the hitboxes so I can't roll, spotdodge, air dodge, or jump anywhere near the thing. I almost lost in round 1 at the custom xanadu i won because of this. He just hit buttons and I had to respect it so much.

Characters with good dash attacks really annoy me when I use mega gunmen.

 

[oldkingcroz]

Ah ok. I thought the zig zag can was more like a wall, along the lines of DeDeDe's alternate Gordo fortress. Hense it being more of a defensive tool, opposed to a pressure tool. My bad. And mega gunmen eating projectiles is nice. Anyway- there's a lot of misconceptions about customs; even the people that know customs [like myself] don't know their proper uses
Still- Albuquerque's head Smash 4 TO hates custom Villager, and the like.

 

[jet56]

If custom moves return in smash 5 and are unlocked form the start do you guys think we'd see a similiar backlash?

nothing against a new smash game coming out,but the game is not even a year old. lets chill a little on the whole "well maybe in the next game they could do this" comments. id prefer to figure out what we are going to do with the game now.

 

[wizrad]

I mean, the NX is probably coming out in two years, so a new Smash wouldn't be too long after. I'd say we'll have Smash 5 in 2018.

 

[Raijinken]

As much as I hope for and look forward to more Smash games, I agree, it's best to focus on the present one in its present state.

And that one has fun customs that people need to explore more.

 

[19_]

Well RAM editing is possible now. Once it becomes streamlined there might be some sm4sh related codes to help with this.

This is kinda what I'm waiting for. Customs being restricted to 10 sets always turned me off. If we had a way to unlock all the customs on wiiUs without being at the mercy of rng then more people may be interested.

 

[wizrad]

There's PowerSaves for 3DS, but that only allows for the importing of custom sets and doesn't actually unlock all customs. Still, it's a step forward.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

Having pre-made custom sets probably saves a lot of time, but I do feel 1 or 2 sets being left for personal choices could be a good idea(if unlocking all customs wasn't such a hassle).

 

[Scarlet Jile]

So, nothing really went wrong, nothing bad happened during the tournament, logistics was solved easily, every potential gameplay problem wasn't present with proper counterplay, and there is no good reason to drop the Customs meta completely, but we still do.

Did I miss something?

The "wait to see how EVO goes" ploy was always a sham. The anti-customs crowd planned on dumping customs from the start, the real problem is the lack of initiative shown by pro-customs TOs for slipping backwards towards default.

For every good idea in this thread, there are 20 idiots who haven't read it coming in to post "customs are jank." Let's at least come to the consensus that Smashboards is full of mouth-breathing fifteen year-olds who couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery. Once we're past that step, let's see some community efforts by TOs to get customs played. Make up your own rulesets to satisfy your local scene. Find what works and what doesn't, then share the results of these efforts.

I plan on starting a customs-on event in my area and trying out some new rules for it. We'll see how it goes.

 

[wizrad]

Yeah, I remember everyone saying "we should just wait to see how Evo goes" and Evo went perfectly fine so they all decided "well, there you have it, customs ruined Evo, R.I.P. customs". Where's the logic in that?

I can understand that they're boring to unlock, but I really don't wanna do all of the events to unlock Final Destination in Melee. Should we ban it? Obviously not. Anyways, soon enough we'll be able to hack all of the customs onto anyone's Wii U. Then what flimsy, irrational argument will the pro-stale meta people come up with?

 

[MrGame&Rock]

The "wait to see how EVO goes" ploy was always a sham. The anti-customs crowd planned on dumping customs from the start, the real problem is the lack of initiative shown by pro-customs TOs for slipping backwards towards default.

For every good idea in this thread, there are 20 idiots who haven't read it coming in to post "customs are jank." Let's at least come to the consensus that Smashboards is full of mouth-breathing fifteen year-olds who couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery. Once we're past that step, let's see some community efforts by TOs to get customs played. Make up your own rulesets to satisfy your local scene. Find what works and what doesn't, then share the results of these efforts.

I plan on starting a customs-on event in my area and trying out some new rules for it. We'll see how it goes.

Don't make me incredibly jealous of your area too :/ xD

 

[jet56]

Damn im upset, im down here in AZ, where the state is HUGE anti-customs. i even unlocked all the customs, so i can actually import the entire custom set on my 3ds to a wii u.

 

[Steelballray]

I thought its all down to the majority preference? Why you acting so mad now? You can never know people's true intentions so please give me a break. You're not a part of the elite Smashboards userbase cause you support customs.

 

[Raijinken]

Maybe online customs tournaments would be the way to go, assuming people can be honor-bound enough to not break the no-equipment rule.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

I thought its all down to the majority preference? Why you acting so mad now? You can never know people's true intentions so please give me a break. You're not a part of the elite Smashboards userbase cause you support customs.

He's annoyed because his local scene uses a different ruleset than the one he really likes and he presumably can't easily attend tournaments that do. It's like if you lived in an area that was 100% pro-customs. Majority rules, yes, but you would have every right to be a little peeved.

 

[Hippieslayer]

If custom moves return in smash 5 and are unlocked form the start do you guys think we'd see a similiar backlash?

nope

 

[A Rogue Cop]

This poll has been going on for a while now, and pro-customs people have been in the lead for all of it to my knowledge.

Yet, the use of custom movesets still seem to be dying out. Is it because TO's are usually against them, and they are the ones who end up calling the shots when it comes to tournament time? For the record I'm in support of them as well.

 

[Raijinken]

This poll has been going on for a while now, and pro-customs people have been in the lead for all of it to my knowledge.

Yet, the use of custom movesets still seem to be dying out. Is it because TO's are usually against them, and they are the ones who end up calling the shots when it comes to tournament time? For the record I'm in support of them as well.

TOs listen to their players, and with all the reports of players literally cheering when customs-off gets announced, it's little wonder that a TO would rather cater to the ignorant masses than risk losing the money offered by kids that can't handle Windykong.

 

[wizrad]

I think it might be because people who want the change to customs are more willing to change than those who don't want customs. Even if we do play with customs, we're not as set in our ways as the people saying, "no, this is the way the game is meant to be played, just like it always has been and always will be". So those people are the people who constantly complain to TOs, because they're more stubborn. I think we pro-customs players have to be like that. The problem is, customs or not, we want to play. Anti-customs people refuse to play in customs events. Thus, the TO gets scared that s/he'll lose entrants, and sticks to the conservative rule set.

 

[DunnoBro]

Xanadu's custom events averaged more people entering customs than non-customs at the time of rotations.

I think it was mostly coincidence + manondorf's crew who were crazy good with customs and mostly only came for those though. (Almost lost vs his brother cause I was dumb and went ganon vs him. Got nearly jv3'd)