What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

@ DunnoBro Any word on customs' future at Xanadu? I'd still be down with doing a customs night at another venue on a different day.

 

[wizrad]

Which is probably because more people are interested in customs than not, but it depends on the area, too. And, again, anti-customs people tend to be more vocal. In many cases, they are a loud minority.

 

[DunnoBro]

@ DunnoBro Any word on customs' future at Xanadu? I'd still be down with doing a customs night at another venue on a different day.

Last I heard some of VGBC wants them to come back in some way but don't know how/when.

 

[ChaikaBestGirl]

I feel customs should be allowed, but then that has to be the default, like if you let on customs it should be one set thing of customs, no more vanilla. They're fun and all but in a roster of 55 characters and each of them having 12 different special moves that means you have to learn 660 different moves. Sure you really only need to learn Sheik's customs to play competitive but still, it is annoying

 

[Raijinken]

I feel customs should be allowed, but then that has to be the default, like if you let on customs it should be one set thing of customs, no more vanilla. They're fun and all but in a roster of 55 characters and each of them having 12 different special moves that means you have to learn 660 different moves. Sure you really only need to learn Sheik's customs to play competitive but still, it is annoying

This really isn't much to learn, all things considered. Since characters typically have roughly 24 moves or so counting 4 of those 12 specials.

That or Smash is just spoiled and used to a game where you can get by knowing relevant details about five characters at the highest level.

 

[Pazx]

TOs listen to their players, and with all the reports of players literally cheering when customs-off gets announced, it's little wonder that a TO would rather cater to the ignorant masses than risk losing the money offered by kids that can't handle Windykong.

Why do you assume people who dislike customs are the "ignorant masses"? It's this sort of attitude that makes pro-custom players look silly.

 

[Raijinken]

Why do you assume people who dislike customs are the "ignorant masses"? It's this sort of attitude that makes pro-custom players look silly.

I don't refer to players who just dislike them. I refer to players who ignore all that should go into a ruleset change and push for the ban just because they dislike them. That's not a competitive reason to remove customs from the ruleset, just like many players' general dislike of Sheik is no reason to ban her.

My wording was perhaps harsh and over-generalized, but I simply refer to the people who don't like customs because they don't want to have to deal with some subjectively "janky" move that they haven't practiced against. Of course, I could be wrong, and all of these cheering players may have very long-thought-out reasons they think these moves as a collective (and not individuals, because we should not punish the group for the offense of one) detract from their experience and the game's competitive health and depth as a whole.

But I don't think that's really the case. I think we have a lot of people who are just salty that it takes a while to unlock them if you don't know a single person who can transfer the sets for you (and, I might add, don't attend the same tournament at which this is expected to be done to all consoles). With the logistics solved (as I, from personal experience, feel they are, though clearly others disagree), I really haven't seen anything anti-customs that doesn't seem like "I don't like it so I think we should ban it" reasoning. No competitively-founded analysis of how they break the game (the closest we could get to that was a subjectively degenerate strategy for Villager, Sonic, and Pikachu. one of which got patched), no relevant analysis of how they "change the meta too much" or "create the illusion of choice in the presence of a clear superior option." Just "Customs on means Sonic and Villager can do that stupid stuff we all hate but allow in our ruleset, and Kong Cyclone is totally untouchable and Helicopter Kick does 25%, so all customs should be banned."

And that attitude conveys willful ignorance of the move properties, their counterplay options, and competitive reasoning. Which makes anti-customs players "look silly." Or, as I termed it, ignorant.

 

[Rocket-Bot]

Customs change up the meta a lot, in a bad way.

For example you're not going to memorize every single custom move, so you have to rely on your opponent to use them and quickly figure out what they do, so that means for most of the match you're worrying about moves he may or may not use.

And besides, it takes awhile to get all of the custom moves, do you really want to waste the time to grind for custom moves, when you could just unlock all of the characters in 1 - 2 hours? Before you can tell me "Oh we can share data though!" Yeah but not every tournament can do that.

Another note, they're unnecessary, because we don't need explosive balloons, or a Ness with Lucas moves, and we certainly don't need Pikachu with a paralyzer.

tl;dr customs are dumb and we don't need them

 

[Wintropy]

Customs change up the meta a lot, in a bad way.

For example you're not going to memorize every single custom move, so you have to rely on your opponent to use them and quickly figure out what they do, so that means for most of the match you're worrying about moves he may or may not use.

This isn't Pokémon. If it's an issue, enforce a rule that both players must inform the other as to which custom set is currently employed.

If the EVO sets are canon, then the issue is mitigated. You just need to know which number corresponds to which set. If it's really an issue, ask your opponent before the match starts. Don't blame ignorance or lack of foresight for potential failure in a match.

And besides, it takes awhile to get all of the custom moves, do you really want to waste the time to grind for custom moves, when you could just unlock all of the characters in 1 - 2 hours? Before you can tell me "Oh we can share data though!" Yeah but not every tournament can do that.

Yes. Many people do. There are many methods that will enable you to do it efficiently and with a minimum of practical effort. Disinterest shouldn't be cited as a justification for a blanket ruleset ban.

Do you really want to go through the difficulty of unlocking every character and stage in Melee or Brawl? In a meta where customs are canon, it's essentially the same thing. You don't disregard Final Destination as a legal stage or Mewtwo as a playable character because "I don't wanna unlock it".

Another note, they're unnecessary, because we don't need explosive balloons, or a Ness with Lucas moves, and we certainly don't need Pikachu with a paralyzer.

We don't need Sheik with needles that invalidate the neutral game.

We don't need Zero Suit Samus with a grab conversion into up-b kill.

We don't need Diddy with a force-trip projectile.

We don't need Bowser with a command grab suicide.

tl;dr customs are dumb and we don't need them

Thank you for your input.

 

[Raijinken]

Customs change up the meta a lot, in a bad way.

For example you're not going to memorize every single custom move, so you have to rely on your opponent to use them and quickly figure out what they do, so that means for most of the match you're worrying about moves he may or may not use.

And besides, it takes awhile to get all of the custom moves, do you really want to waste the time to grind for custom moves, when you could just unlock all of the characters in 1 - 2 hours? Before you can tell me "Oh we can share data though!" Yeah but not every tournament can do that.

Another note, they're unnecessary, because we don't need explosive balloons, or a Ness with Lucas moves, and we certainly don't need Pikachu with a paralyzer.

tl;dr customs are dumb and we don't need them

But I am going to memorize every single custom move, and am well on the way to doing so. For roughly half the roster, I know by numbers what my opponent has equipped (this was largely learned without assistance from other players, as only half of my Smash circle uses customs, and their character pools are limited), and for all of the characters that I have used or seen used in customs, I know what that will imply for my approaches, defenses, and neutral options. On top of that, I wrote into my tournament ruleset that any player can request a customs demonstration at the beginning of a match, using an additional minute and stock (to reset stale moves) for explanation.

Yes, I really wanted to spend my time grinding for customs, so badly that I did it on both consoles, so that I would have free control to experiment and play with them and learn what they do. I wanted Customs in my game far more than I wanted half the characters in Melee or Brawl (where it took far longer to unlock them, too). If your tournament scene is so small and isolated that nobody has an unlocked 3DS, then you have run into exactly the one existing situation in which it is logistically infeasible to run full-roster customs.

We don't need explosive balloons, or Ness with odd versions of Lucas's moves. or chainable (fixed) paralyzing thundermice. But we do need better Monado Arts, better Dark Dive, more-effective Missiles, and useful specials for Palutena or Miis.
After all, if the only real issue is Extreme Balloon Trip, then you and everyone else is more than welcome to find a competitively justified ban reason (over-centralized gameplay when paired with Timber Counter makes sense to me, ban that pair). But don't ban the crowd for the offense of one.

tl;dr A lack of need does not correlate to a lack of want, else we'd all play top tiers on Smashville and ban the rest of the cast and stages.

 

[Rocket-Bot]

Do you really want to go through the difficulty of unlocking every character and stage in Melee or Brawl? In a meta where customs are canon, it's essentially the same thing. You don't disregard Final Destination as a legal stage or Mewtwo as a playable character because "I don't wanna unlock it".

What you fail to understand is that you don't need to unlock stages in Melee, maybe not even brawl, because you have a thing called action replay, where you can just unlock everything in 3 seconds. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe the WiiU has the same option.

We don't need Sheik with needles that invalidate the neutral game.

We don't need Zero Suit Samus with a grab conversion into up-b kill.

We don't need Diddy with a force-trip projectile.

We don't need Bowser with a command grab suicide.

Again, you don't understand is that is part of their play, Pikachu play doesn't require a paralyzer, Ness doesn't need a Pk thunder that can deal 30 and destroy shields,

If it's really an issue, ask your opponent before the match starts. Don't blame ignorance or lack of foresight for potential failure in a match.

Ok, asking your opponent is something you can do, but most people won't do that if they're new to the scene, or they're just shy in general,

we do need better Monado Arts, better Dark Dive, more-effective Missiles, and useful specials for Palutena or Miis.
After all

Monado arts are fine on their own, same thing with dark dive, you can literally chase people off the stage, since you can grab people and pretty much knock them back with the vanilla version. Palutena and Miis are different, they're meant to be customizable. Oh not to mention shulk's power counter, that can kill fronted at like 0

 

[wizrad]

Customs change up the meta a lot, in a bad way.

For example you're not going to memorize every single custom move, so you have to rely on your opponent to use them and quickly figure out what they do, so that means for most of the match you're worrying about moves he may or may not use.

And besides, it takes awhile to get all of the custom moves, do you really want to waste the time to grind for custom moves, when you could just unlock all of the characters in 1 - 2 hours? Before you can tell me "Oh we can share data though!" Yeah but not every tournament can do that.

Another note, they're unnecessary, because we don't need explosive balloons, or a Ness with Lucas moves, and we certainly don't need Pikachu with a paralyzer.

tl;dr customs are dumb and we don't need them

Your reasoning was literally "I'm lazy". That's not an argument.

 

[Rocket-Bot]

Your reasoning was literally "I'm lazy". That's not an argument.

I'm going to assume you didn't read all of my post, but I clearly said "For example you're not going to memorize every single custom move, so you have to rely on your opponent to use them and quickly figure out what they do, so that means for most of the match you're worrying about moves he may or may not use." and "Another note, they're unnecessary, because we don't need explosive balloons, or a Ness with Lucas moves, and we certainly don't need Pikachu with a paralyzer."

 

[wizrad]

I read your post. "I didn't study the matchup" = "I'm lazy".
"Unlocking all the moves takes too long" = "I'm lazy".
Unnecessary isn't valid in any way, unless you elaborate more and mean something other than "they already have other moves", so I disregarded it. I understand how boring and time consuming it can be to unlock all of the moves on your own, and I agree with your statements, but that doesn't mean they're logical reasons against change in a competitive ruleset. Not learning customs is your fault. TOs can import most custom sets from a Powersaved 3DS and let competitors import any other sets they want from their own 3DS, which takes less than a minute.

 

[Raijinken]

What you fail to understand is that you don't need to unlock stages in Melee, maybe not even brawl, because you have a thing called action replay, where you can just unlock everything in 3 seconds. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe the WiiU has the same option.


Again, you don't understand is that is part of their play, Pikachu play doesn't require a paralyzer, Ness doesn't need a Pk thunder that can deal 30 and destroy shields,

Ok, asking your opponent is something you can do, but most people won't do that if they're new to the scene, or they're just shy in general,


Monado arts are fine on their own, same thing with dark dive, you can literally chase people off the stage, since you can grab people and pretty much knock them back with the vanilla version. Palutena and Miis are different, they're meant to be customizable. Oh not to mention shulk's power counter, that can kill fronted at like 0

The 3DS has PowerSaves, and essentially every customs-on tournament uses a 3DS for moveset transfer due to convenience. "But that's a paywall" is an excuse I've seen, but since that just got reflected (shined?) onto Melee, I guess it's considered a fair way to unlock. Wii U hacks are also in-development.

I've never seen a Ness actually use a non-default UpB, because the default is so good. But if someone discovers that the stronger one is that good, then I'll still find it more fair than Bouncing Fish.

If someone is shy, then it's their own dang fault. You can't hold me accountable for my opponent's failure to ask how something works, especially before or after the match.

Monado Arts are lackluster (go read the Shulk customs discussion, both others are basically better if you have any idea what you're doing on Shulk), Dark Dive is widely considered to be near-total garbage (especially compared to Dark Fists) due to its knockback being pathetic and nearly unscaling.

I'm going to assume you didn't read all of my post, but I clearly said "For example you're not going to memorize every single custom move, so you have to rely on your opponent to use them and quickly figure out what they do, so that means for most of the match you're worrying about moves he may or may not use." and "Another note, they're unnecessary, because we don't need explosive balloons, or a Ness with Lucas moves, and we certainly don't need Pikachu with a paralyzer."

And you didn't read my post, where I said "Yes, I am," and Wintropy's post that said basically the same, and thus made it clear that there ARE players who are going to memorize every custom move.

 

[Rocket-Bot]

Powersaved 3DS and let competitors import any other sets they want from their own 3DS, which takes less than a minute.

Wasn't importing sets from your own 3ds not allowed in evo?

"Yes, I am," and Wintropy's post that said basically the same, and thus made it clear that there ARE players who are going to memorize every custom move.

Ok theres going to be players that want to memorize them all, while others don't want to. Also about the Dark Dive thing, it's supposed to be a recovery anyways, also, Ganondorf has a custom side B that can kill at 80, I forget what it was called. But it had just shorter range, but that doesn't matter if your opponent can do something punishable.

 

[wizrad]

Maybe, but we don't have to follow Evo. It's not any sort of definitive authority on competitive Smash. Didn't they use 2/3 rules instead of 3/5 for Melee winners/losers finals until this year?

 

[Raijinken]

Wasn't importing sets from your own 3ds not allowed in evo?

Ok theres going to be players that want to memorize them all, while others don't want to. Also about the Dark Dive thing, it's supposed to be a recovery anyways, also, Ganondorf has a custom side B that can kill at 80, I forget what it was called. But it had just shorter range, but that doesn't matter if your opponent can do something punishable.

There are players who want to learn and play against Sheik, while others don't want to. #bansheik

Flame Wave also removes Ganoncide as a strategy outright, and is worthless as a recovery mixup because of that reduced range. Similarly, it's harder to create tech-chase and roll punish setups with because of the same reduced range.

Maybe, but we don't have to follow Evo. It's not any sort of definitive authority on competitive Smash. Didn't they use 2/3 rules instead of 3/5 for winners/losers finals until this year?

Didn't they run items in Brawl? Or was that MLG?

Either way, this is a good point you bring up. The Custom Moveset Project, by design and intention (if anyone has actually read AA's post), allows and encourages players to bring their own setups, and for tournaments with sufficient logistical capacity and executional efficiency to allow player-input setups instead of forcing a pick from ten.

 

[Rocket-Bot]

There are players who want to learn and play against Sheik, while others don't want to. #bansheik

Flame Wave also removes Ganoncide as a strategy outright, and is worthless as a recovery mix up because of that reduced range. Similarly, it's harder to create tech-chase and roll punish setups with because of the same reduced range.

You can still ganoncide with flame wave, but It doesn't matter that much if you can kill early, like most of ganon's moves, besides, you can tech chase with wizards foot, if they tech away or in place I believe. Besides, you can still recover with Dark Dive.

 

[Wintropy]

Wasn't importing sets from your own 3ds not allowed in evo?

As above, we can canonise the rule without the ruleset borne of it.

Ok theres going to be players that want to memorize them all, while others don't want to. Also about the Dark Dive thing, it's supposed to be a recovery anyways, also, Ganondorf has a custom side B that can kill at 80, I forget what it was called. But it had just shorter range, but that doesn't matter if your opponent can do something punishable.

I don't want to memorise how to counter Sheik's needles -> BF silliness. Can we just ban Sheik?

Incidentally, ZSS is a dull character who just grabs you and u-airs you and up-b's you to death. I don't wannt fight that. That's jank. Can we ban her too?

"I don't wanna" isn't a justifiable excuse.

The game has variables. It's part of whole the whole mad shindig works.

 

[Rocket-Bot]

Maybe, but we don't have to follow Evo. It's not any sort of definitive authority on competitive Smash. Didn't they use 2/3 rules instead of 3/5 for Melee winners/losers finals until this year?

This entire thread is based off of evo. And I couldn't tell you about the 2/3 thing, I only watched CEO live.

As above, we can canonise the rule without the ruleset borne of it.



I don't want to memorise how to counter Sheik's needles -> BF silliness. Can we just ban Sheik?

Incidentally, ZSS is a dull character who just grabs you and u-airs you and up-b's you to death. I don't wannt fight that. That's jank. Can we ban her too?

"I don't wanna" isn't a justifiable excuse.

The game has variables. It's part of whole the whole mad shindig works.

Lel, I'm not saying I want to ban customs just because I don't want to fight them, I'm saying I don't want them to be used in tournaments because they're broken for the most part.
I'm not saying all of them are bad, I'm saying most of them are bad.

 

[wizrad]

The thread may be based off of Evo, but the customs debate is not. My point in bringing up their Melee rules was to point out that they've ruled in debatable (at best) ways in the past.

 

[Wintropy]

Lel, I'm not saying I want to ban customs just because I don't want to fight them, I'm saying I don't want them to be used in tournaments because they're broken for the most part.
I'm not saying all of them are bad, I'm saying most of them are bad.

You literally just cited "people don't want to learn it" as a vindication:

Ok theres going to be players that want to memorize them all, while others don't want to.

"Most of them are bad" is subjective. I think most of them are totally fine, and no offense, but I have indeed gone out of my way to study how the moves work.

 

[Raijinken]

Lel, I'm not saying I want to ban customs just because I don't want to fight them, I'm saying I don't want them to be used in tournaments because they're broken for the most part.
I'm not saying all of them are bad, I'm saying most of them are bad.

Sheik, Rosalina, and Zero Suit Samus all have consistently better default results than the "jankiest" and "most broken" of all custom fighters, and move combinations thereon. Pre-patch Diddy was even more broken.

One choice is that we can ban the problems if they're really problems. Some people called for a Diddy ban, after all.
One choice is we can ban the category if that ensures we remove the problem while being fair to all characters. Henceforth all characters are banned.
The last choice is we can solve the general ignorance about customs, including but not limited to which ones have what sort of counterplay, which ones (if any) are more obnoxious than Needles and Bouncing Fish, and which oens (if any) over-centralize any given character's playstyle more than, for instance, Sheik's dthrow->kill, Zamus's dthrow->kill, Diddy's former dthrow->kill, etc, and then we can sit around and inevitably reach the conclusion that not all customs are broken, and thus there is no reason to ban all of them. Unless laziness is a reason. Ban Smashville: requires playing single player.

 

[Rocket-Bot]

The thread may be based off of Evo, but the customs debate is not. My point in bringing up their Melee rules was to point out that they've ruled in debatable (at best) ways in the past.

Agreed

You literally just cited "people don't want to learn it" as a vindication:



"Most of them are bad" is subjective. I think most of them are totally fine, and no offense, but I have indeed gone out of my way to study how the moves work.

I'm not offended that you go out to study the custom moves, yeah some people don't want to learn 408 (8x51) custom moves, not to mention 3 x 3 x 3 x 3 = 4131 possible combinations of custom moves,

Sheik, Rosalina, and Zero Suit Samus all have consistently better default results than the "jankiest" and "most broken" of all custom fighters, and move combinations thereon. Pre-patch Diddy was even more broken.

One choice is that we can ban the problems if they're really problems. Some people called for a Diddy ban, after all.
One choice is we can ban the category if that ensures we remove the problem while being fair to all characters. Henceforth all characters are banned.
The last choice is we can solve the general ignorance about customs, including but not limited to which ones have what sort of counterplay, which ones (if any) are more obnoxious than Needles and Bouncing Fish, and which oens (if any) over-centralize any given character's playstyle more than, for instance, Sheik's dthrow->kill, Zamus's dthrow->kill, Diddy's former dthrow->kill, etc, and then we can sit around and inevitably reach the conclusion that not all customs are broken, and thus there is no reason to ban all of them. Unless laziness is a reason. Ban Smashville: requires playing single player.

I really don't care about Sheik, Rosalina, or ZSS, I don't want to all characters or stages just because you have to play on them lol. It's not even a good counter argument because characters and custom moves are completely different things.

 

[wizrad]

Learning all 408 custom moves would be more than enough to be prepared for any combination of the moves.

But they aren't. The only reason why customs should be banned is if they were to affect the meta in a negative, over-centralizing way. Sheik and ZSS force competitors to play a certain way (never EVER get grabbed) to win, which changes the metagame. And hey, they're allowed. This means that customs have to be significantly more of an issue if we are to ban them.

 

[Raijinken]

Agreed

I'm not offended that you go out to study the custom moves, yeah some people don't want to learn 408 (8x51) custom moves, not to mention 3 x 3 x 3 x 3 = 4131 possible combinations of custom moves,

I really don't care about Sheik, Rosalina, or ZSS, I don't want to all characters or stages just because you have to play on them lol. It's not even a good counter argument because characters and custom moves are completely different things.

What is a character without their moves?
A bad competitive argument is a bad competitive argument, it doesn't matter what the topic is. Bans (regardless of what they are aimed at) are not made for laziness, and blanket bans are not made over minimal uninformed biases about a class of game entities.

 

[Rocket-Bot]

Learning all 408 custom moves would be more than enough to be prepared for any combination of the moves.

But they aren't. The only reason why customs should be banned is if they were to affect the meta in a negative, over-centralizing way. Sheik and ZSS force competitors to play a certain way (never EVER get grabbed) to win, which changes the metagame. And hey, they're allowed. This means that customs have to be significantly more of an issue if we are to ban them.

Well yes, learning all of them will certainly give you an advantage, But playing against ZSS and Sheik doesn't change the meta, It changes your play style against them.

What is a character without their moves?
A bad competitive argument is a bad competitive argument, it doesn't matter what the topic is. Bans (regardless of what they are aimed at) are not made for laziness, and blanket bans are not made over minimal uninformed biases about a class of game entities.

A part of banning customs is not because they're lazy, but a metagame without customs gives people more accessibility to that meta, rather than a meta filled with variations. For example if two players play in a Shulk ditto, with customs off, they both have the same moves, with customs on, it all comes down to who can use the custom move that the other one has better, rather than who ever can use the same moves better than the other one

 

[Raijinken]

Well yes, learning all of them will certainly give you an advantage, But playing against ZSS and Sheik doesn't change the meta, It changes your play style against them.

A part of banning customs is not because they're lazy, but a metagame without customs gives people more accessibility to that meta, rather than a meta filled with variations. For example if two players play in a Shulk ditto, with customs off, they both have the same moves, with customs on, it all comes down to who can use the custom move that the other one has better, rather than who ever can use the same moves better than the other one

This is not considered anything near a problem in any other game. Alternately, if that should be the contest, why have so many other characters? Should we judge skill purely by the better Sheik (or any other single character)? Giving players the character choice adds more confounding variables to the contest of who is better.

In other words, that isn't a justification for a ban.

 

[Rocket-Bot]

This is not considered anything near a problem in any other game. Alternately, if that should be the contest, why have so many other characters? Should we judge skill purely by the better Sheik (or any other single character)? Giving players the character choice adds more confounding variables to the contest of who is better.

In other words, that isn't a justification for a ban.

You missed the point, adding more variables to a character doesn't mean who's better with that character it means who's better with that move set.

 

[wizrad]

Actually, if the players have equal skill, the difference can be who has the knowledge to choose the better moveset for the ditto. But, if they're equal in knowedge (as ideally they should be, for hype reasons and competitiveness) they'll both choose the same moveset anyways, bringing it back to who's the better player.

 

[Rocket-Bot]

Actually, if the players have equal skill, the difference can be who has the knowledge to choose the better moveset for the ditto. But, if they're equal in knowledge (as ideally they should be, for hype reasons and competitiveness) they'll both choose the same moveset anyways, bringing it back to who's the better player.

True, but that's assuming they like the same moveset, if customs are going to be on in any tournament, the player who uses the custom moveset would be based on preference and how the play that character. Unless they both play the same way, then it would be based who ever touches first then. Because then it wouldn't be based on skill then.

 

[Raijinken]

Fortunately, that's not how tournaments work in practice, only in theory. No two players are ever of identical skill and knowledge on the exact same character.

 

[Rocket-Bot]

Fortunately, that's not how tournaments work in practice, only in theory. No two players are ever of identical skill and knowledge on the exact same character.

true, don't even know why i brought that up but still. It's based on preference not skill on move sets

 

[Charey]

true, don't even know why i brought that up but still. It's based on preference not skill on move sets

So is character choice, you still need the skill to use your character/moveset in a way to beat what your opponent chooses.

 

[A Rogue Cop]

true, don't even know why i brought that up but still. It's based on preference not skill on move sets

What's wrong with people having different set preferences anyway? I'd say a Shulk ditto with one using decisive arts and one using hyper arts, not to mention the three other moves they could be using, is more interesting than both having all the same moves.

And before you say I'm arguing from a spectator's perspective remember it's the competitors' choice whether or not to use the same set.

 

[TheAnomaly]

true, don't even know why i brought that up but still. It's based on preference not skill on move sets

I'd like to cite Armada as reference to how this isn't true. He prefered to play peach for years until he realised people finally started to learn the matchup. He then had to switch to fox(mainly for Leffen) because he knows that in order to keep competing at a top level he must play the better matchup. It may be preference at first but top players will eventually play the best set for the matchup if a clear best set exist.

 

[Raijinken]

I'd like to cite Armada as reference to how this isn't true. He prefered to play peach for years until he realised people finally started to learn the matchup. He then had to switch to fox(mainly for Leffen) because he knows that in order to keep competing at a top level he must play the better matchup. It may be preference at first but top players will eventually play the best set for the matchup if a clear best set exist.

That said, when a clear best set doesn't exist, it will probably largely fall to player preference. For example, (and this is somewhat hypothetical due to the underexplored nature of customs in general), picking different Monado Arts will largely depend on the player's confidence in their decision making (Decisive) versus their confidence in their executional skill (Extreme).

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'd like to cite Armada as reference to how this isn't true. He prefered to play peach for years until he realised people finally started to learn the matchup. He then had to switch to fox(mainly for Leffen) because he knows that in order to keep competing at a top level he must play the better matchup. It may be preference at first but top players will eventually play the best set for the matchup if a clear best set exist.

Also, how long did it take for people to catch on and make Peach's life difficult enough for him to switch to Fox?

According to Smashwiki, Armada's dominance started in 2011. It's now 2015. That means it took four years for the top echelons of Melee players to figure out the Peach matchup to the point where Armada felt it was better to stop maining Peach.

And we think we have customs figured out after less than a year? Please.

(This isn't aimed at you specifically, it just made me think and I wanted to make a point.)

 

[Raijinken]

Also, how long did it take for people to catch on and make Peach's life difficult enough for him to switch to Fox?

According to Smashwiki, Armada's dominance started in 2011. It's now 2015. That means it took four years for the top echelons of Melee players to figure out the Peach matchup to the point where Armada felt it was better to stop maining Peach.

And we think we have customs figured out after less than a year? Please.

(This isn't aimed at you specifically, it just made me think and I wanted to make a point.)

We think we have anything figured out after less than a year in a game getting balance patches every few months or less?

For emphasis of your point.