Wes Talks Bans With Smash On Blast

[MarioMeteor]

Here's an example:


Let's say equipment is legal. Someone enters a Little Mac with two of the strongest attack badges and a defensive leaper badge with his up special as the one that lets you go higher. The Little Mac is stronger and can recover better than a normal Little Mac.

So let's say in response to that Little Mac, I make a Jigglypuff. If I have all that equipment, I could build a Jigglypuff with that exact same build. Or to counter Mac's attack, I could put on some defense and to counter his recovery I counter his recovery, I could put on some attack. Now I have a Jigglypuff that's better than a normal one, and it's all fair game. Feel me? And speaking less generally, if a Mac actually did that, his speed and defense would be that of a lamp, so that added recovery wouldn't make a difference if he moves like a boulder in the air. It balances out.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Customs need to be made a thing. One of the best features of Smash 4 being ignored? Now that Apex is over, there is no excuse. Now is the time to implement customs.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I don't make the rules.

yeah u don't but i do like pointing out flawed things about the rules Xd

 

[M@v]

My only question is "How do we reliably get all wii us to have all customs unlocked?" I really want custom moves, but Nintendo hasn't done us any favors in making it easily to unlock. "Oh, you want custom moves for Robin? Here, take these 3 repeats which you have already unlocked despite playing 17 waves of crazy orders!"

 

[Luigisama]

I'll add a $200 pot to a tourney that allows customs on wiiu and 2222 for mii brawler isn't banned and there has to be an evaluation of what people thought of it. I wanna see salt.

 

[Ansou]

My only question is "How do we reliably get all wii us to have all customs unlocked?" I really want custom moves, but Nintendo hasn't done us any favors in making it easily to unlock. "Oh, you want custom moves for Robin? Here, take these 3 repeats which you have already unlocked despite playing 17 waves of crazy orders!"

http://smashboards.com/threads/official-standard-custom-moveset-project-initial-release.381395/
Here you have it.

 

[ＪｎＬ]

WHY THE VIDEO WAS RECORDED WITH VCR QUALITY??? :o

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Amazing ampharos's custom move project really need to be front paged on this site more often. We should start with a popular tourny known as xanadu. If xanadu can get customs and we inform how the custom moves project works there. we can maybe start influenceing TO's minds

 

[Ansou]

Amazing ampharos's custom move project really need to be front paged on this site more often. We should start with a popular tourny known as xanadu. If xanadu can get customs and we inform how the custom moves project works there. we can maybe start influenceing TO's minds

I agree fully. It seems like people actually don't know about the project and therefore think custom moves are impossible. The project clearly needs all the publicity it can get.

 

[moofpi]

Amazing ampharos's custom move project really need to be front paged on this site more often. We should start with a popular tourny known as xanadu. If xanadu can get customs and we inform how the custom moves project works there. we can maybe start influenceing TO's minds

In a thread on custom moves and what's gonna happen after Apex, Dunnobro mentioned this the other day:

"On a lighter note, Apostle told me tonight that Xanadu's next Wii U Monthly will -definitely- have a customs side tournament to test things out and introduce it subtly to hopefully have it alongside their weekly tournaments in the future.

He's actually fond of the idea of equipment too, though I'm not so much in agreement with him on that...

Gonna be practicing for that customs tournament with boss and at the potential custom tournament at the UMD on Friday. "

That is today Friday, so I wonder if it's going to be streamed. Also they mentioned a tournament called Nebulous being streamed this Sunday that's going to be customs. It's exciting to really see them interacting in a competitive environment instead of just training mode showcases of the moves.

Also I think there is a Hypest EU custom tournament still streaming on twitch.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

In a thread on custom moves and what's gonna happen after Apex, Dunnobro mentioned this the other day:

"On a lighter note, Apostle told me tonight that Xanadu's next Wii U Monthly will -definitely- have a customs side tournament to test things out and introduce it subtly to hopefully have it alongside their weekly tournaments in the future.

He's actually fond of the idea of equipment too, though I'm not so much in agreement with him on that...

Gonna be practicing for that customs tournament with boss and at the potential custom tournament at the UMD on Friday. "

That is today Friday, so I wonder if it's going to be streamed. Also they mentioned a tournament called Nebulous being streamed this Sunday that's going to be customs. It's exciting to really see them interacting in a competitive environment instead of just training mode showcases of the moves.

Also I think there is a Hypest EU custom tournament still streaming on twitch.

thank you for letting me know. we really need this to grow if we want customs to show up at evo.

 

[Uncle]

The most important thing to take from that video is that we should try things out for a sufficient amount of time before banning them. Customs should be given a chance at tournaments all over.

If Smashers can save Apex 2015 from the brink of destruction, then they can certainly overcome the modest-by-comparison hurdles of implementing customs.

 

[praline]

Custom moves should be allowed. I mean how else would you be able to play Palutena proper?

 

[TheFadedWarrior]

No need to watch the video. Most people I've spoken to, even at tournaments, want to use custom moves and a more expansive stae list. On top of that, many are ready to start entering 3v3 and 4v4 teams. The truth is that it's being decided based the personal preference of TOs and a few influential high level players. We need to break away from that kind of thinking.

4v4 teams? What about 2v2v2v2 teams?

But seriously, I'm all for 4v4 teams. That sounds really fun!

 

[Jigglymaster]

With that logic, no pun intended, you're pretty much saying that Giant Mode, Stamina Mode, Metal Mode, and whatever other mode is in the game should be allowed in tourneys. I'm all for custom moves, but that would create alternate tier lists. I'm guessing this is why Miis aren't allowed in tourneys, because of their different abilities. Unless you don't care about a tier list and whatnot, then it's definitely a good thing. But to be fair, new things should be considered, and if they don't work out, they don't work out. If they do, then great.

I think what he meant to say is features only found in SMASH mode. Not special mode. At tournaments we play Smash mode and smash mode alone.

Mii fighters are selectable with all their custom moves even when customization is turned OFF. This is a feature that is in the game that the game's creators were okay with letting slide by, even though customization is OFF. This means we should be allowed to use the Mii Fighters and their custom moves. Yet we choose to disregard what the game allows and ban them from using any set other than 1111 because "its not fair to the other characters"

Meanwhile in Brawl you had to hold R to select ZSS and she was the only character to start off with 3 Armor pieces that made her Top tier for the first stock but nobody complained about that.

 

[Thedragon159]

Customs are gonna be smash 4s thing not just the starting moves

 

[Nefnoj]

I had a discussion like this a while ago with some stranger on a bus. We considered this:
All equipments of Smash 4 should be banned, simply because they're not universal across all characters.
We also thought that custom specials should not be banned... On the condition that your opponent knows what custom special you're using, and how it's different. In other words, your opponent should watch you set it up.
I don't think that any characters should be banned.
As far as stages go... Personally, I prefer super simple stages with no distractions in competitive play, so Battlefield and Final Destination.

Though stages with predictable hazards and movements, I think, should be considered a bit more highly. So long as said hazards and movements aren't left to chance, or random, for instance, Mute City should totally be banned, but Reset Bomb Forest would be okay...

 

[MegaMango]

Well, that just means instead of learning to counter every single custom moveset, you'll have to make quick decisions on the go and adapt to them as the game goes on. Being a top player shouldn't be about reading a textbook on MUs, it should be about being the better player.

So players like Zero would be at a disadvantage? I'm in.

 

[Uffe]

I think what he meant to say is features only found in SMASH mode. Not special mode. At tournaments we play Smash mode and smash mode alone.

Mii fighters are selectable with all their custom moves even when customization is turned OFF. This is a feature that is in the game that the game's creators were okay with letting slide by, even though customization is OFF. This means we should be allowed to use the Mii Fighters and their custom moves. Yet we choose to disregard what the game allows and ban them from using any set other than 1111 because "its not fair to the other characters"

Meanwhile in Brawl you had to hold R to select ZSS and she was the only character to start off with 3 Armor pieces that made her Top tier for the first stock but nobody complained about that.

You can't turn customization off, only equipment. My argument about customizations had nothing to do with being "unfair", it had to do with alternate match up lists and alternate tier lists. If you've got a Mario in a tournament using 1, 2, 3, 1, and another Mario using 2, 3, 2, 3, then the tier list and match ups are going to fluctuate. If you're not the type who believes in match ups and tiers, then this doesn't apply to you.

If Miis are stuck using 1, 1, 1, 1, then I can see it not being a problem because that will determine how the character was originally created. As for Zero Suit Samus, realistically speaking, if you had players using Final Smashes, then Samus transforming was inevitable. And please don't think I'm against the usage of Miis or custom moves. I've already established that in my first post.

 

[BigShad]

The problem with custom sets are that they're a grind fest for all. But! We should try to develop a mod that unlocks all custom moves.

 

[warriorman222]

You can't turn customization off, only equipment. My argument about customizations had nothing to do with being "unfair", it had to do with alternate match up lists and alternate tier lists. If you've got a Mario in a tournament using 1, 2, 3, 1, and another Mario using 2, 3, 2, 3, then the tier list and match ups are going to fluctuate. If you're not the type who believes in match ups and tiers, then this doesn't apply to you.

If Miis are stuck using 1, 1, 1, 1, then I can see it not being a problem because that will determine how the character was originally created. As for Zero Suit Samus, realistically speaking, if you had players using Final Smashes, then Samus transforming was inevitable. And please don't think I'm against the usage of Miis or custom moves. I've already established that in my first post.

The tier lists will assume you're using the best set for the MU. Like in every other fighter with some semblance of customization legal. And that will take a while to determine, but we were patient enough to deal with alll of Apex's temporal punishment. We can deal with customs.

Miis were originally created with customization in mind. Why do you think Custom off doesn't disable specials on them? ZSS was usable without inal Smashes, so that example is irrelevant.

I know you're not against customs but those are some holes. Logistics is the only semi-reasonable reason to ban customs, and @ Amazing Ampharos fixes that anyways.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

This is my first time being tagged by a comment in a news article. This video was completely hilarious, and I 100% support Wes's message.

More importantly, yes, the logistics are pretty well solved. You just pre-load all of the popular sets onto every Wii U from a 3ds that has everything unlocked (only one 3ds has to have everything unlocked, and the 3ds is supported by that powersaves cheating device if truly no one in your region can be bothered to do the unlocking manually). Any player who wants an unpopular custom build can upload it from a 3ds before their set starts, ideally from their own 3ds but they could just borrow one or tell the TO ahead of time (especially for locals) as well. As more places have customs legal, we'll have better and better data on which movesets are most popular, and we can continue to refine the sets so as few players as possible will ever need to interact with a 3ds.

As per how long it takes, it takes a long time to prep the 3ds itself, but once you do that, it takes 12-13 minutes to upload every single custom build onto every character on the Wii U. You do this once and the Wii U remembers what you've done forever. It's not prohibitive at all; I've spread customs to the majority of the KC Smash 4 scene from my 3ds, and I know from talking to people here that there are people like me in just about every region willing to do the same.

Honestly, I think the overwhelming majority of the scene wants customs; we just need to just do it. Better game, happier scene, everyone wins.

 

[stancosmos]

It's time for another installment of Smash on Blast. This time around, community figure Wes sets his sights on early bans. The Smash 4 community has had a number of bans put in place very early in the life cycle of the game, namely custom moves and Mii Fighters. Tournament organizers have cited logistics, but several have not even attempted to use these features in tournament, leaving many with a bad taste in their mouth.

Mr. Wes, taking people to school literally!​

Wes handles this in his trademark goofball style, finishing the video off with a song you'll likely not forget anytime soon. Check it out below!

Smash on Blast: Ep. 9 - The Banned Wagon
​

What do you think? Does Wes bring up a good point? Make your voice heard below!

The Derrit is really liking Wes' videos as of late. Chat with him on Twitter at @TheDerrit.

I know it's apples and oranges, but if games like league of legends can be so viable competitively with such a massive list of characters to choose from, why can't professional smash players get used to playing against more varied characters? the main argument i always hear is that nobody knows how to play against these moves so they ban them. If smash is to succeed by having less options, than we should all pray the next smash installment has less characters. Honestly, that argument to me is nonsense. What i can agree with is that it's hell to unlock all the custom moves and therefor most people don't get a chance to practice with them all. If only nintendo would come to the rescue and offer some online 5$ unlock-all option.

 

[T0MMY]

It's not so much a problem of "banning" as it is a problem with logistics.

Not every setup is going to have all the custom moves unlocked. No TO in my area has all customs unlocked, I don't even have them unlocked, I don't think anyone in my entire state or even entire region that comes to a tournament does.
But the biggest problem I think is pushing for customs to be the headlining event replacing the traditional 1v1 set is shooting the movement in the foot. Push for that and there will be a much bigger push against it. Step-by-step would be the only viable option, but that's not what is happening.
And finally, it's not like somehow getting past all these problems is even going to fix everything and leave everyone happy - most people who compete in my region just don't care for custom moves. A vocal minority on Smashboards is one thing, but there's no sense in trying to force it in regions that don't want it.
Sorry, but the most I can hope for at this point is some kind of side event at tournaments that caters to the 3DS crowd. Which is where the movement should start rather than end.

And stop lumping Mii fighters in with Custom Fighters.
Turn the Custom Fighters OFF and see for yourself they are still there to be used like normal.

Mii are part of the normal character roster and should be left alone even in a no-custom tournament.

Any non-custom tournament banning/limiting Mii are just losing attendees by excluding them and will cause more problems for the TOs than it solves.

Spoiler

Also, it's scrubby to ban without reason.

 

[GHOST4700]

I think customs should be allowed as long as it's just the moves and not the stat modification thing.

 

[Iridex]

The problem with custom sets are that they're a grind fest for all. But! We should try to develop a mod that unlocks all custom moves.

inb4 it suffers the same fate as PM

 

[_D._]

Are you people stupid? There's a reason street fighter doesn't run custom moves even though they have the ability to.

 

[Akaimizu]

I'm glad Wes put in subtitles, if only because some of the title song was really tough to hear the words in. He certainly went for the look of an old VHS recording from the late 70s. Fairly accurately, at that. (Which for anybody who has seen any recorded to YouTube lately, Wes hits the nail on the head.(Try watching an episode of "Read All About it" to see))

I come from the much older communities of early SF and KOF games, until somewhere in the early 2000s. Of course, Ban wasn't exactly a word back then, that is, with exception of when certain home ports allowed you to play actual Boss characters in a game like KOF. (And I don't mean the balanced Boss characters ala. KOF '96). More like the end-boss characters which someone could otherwise pick trying to be broken.

However, even observing the matches closely, it does seem people want to ban any characters who achieve anywhere near Ken Masters level, these days. Anybody old enough to remember the games where it seems like every other competitive player wanted to play Ken in SF, because they figured he was the competitive advantage? Yep, he was winning lots of games, but what ended up as his achilles heel was two things:
1. He had weaknesses to exploit, even if it seemed small at first.
2. So many people played him.

What ended up, is without Capcom even having to change him, many simply learned his tricks (either due to overexposure, or actually playing him to find out his holes) and thus we starting beating those players who all decided to learn from the same Book of Ken series of bread and butter combos and cross up attempts that we could see them a mile away. Sometimes due to even subtle steps to throw off the distance game, or timely counters to obtain advantage to initiate pressure tactics, baiting, and conditioning based on typical Ken tactics.

Anyway, this is just a long example of even the early days of how people weren't quick to ban and took their time (even years) to adapt without the need to ban. We spent way more time adapting to Ken Masters than the entire time Smash 4 even existed.

 

[Akaimizu]

inb4 it suffers the same fate as PM

That's different. A version of Smash 4 with all customs unlocked, is still a version of Smash for which all code and behavior is 100% controlled and maintained by Nintendo, with full legal use. It's simply a state of a save file for which anybody could attain by regular play. (A lot of it, but still regular play)

Outside of that, I can sort of understand (and I thought this was the case) a temporary ban on customs until a set time where it can be understood that most, if not all, custom moves should be unlocked by. I was thinking the ban was simply based on the idea that many custom moves won't be unlocked for the tournament setting. What's interesting is that Nintendo even had a For glory tournament setting that allowed customs showing that they can be more balanced that they would seem (in theory). Most custom moves have a plus along with a minus. It also showed the perfect example of a player who learned how to use a custom move right, changed his strategy around it, and got wins from good use of it. And by the end, it also showed the perfect example of that same player losing the competition due to his opponent realizing the weakness behind that custom move and capitalized on it with a counter-strategy. I would think that once people feel enough time has elapsed, that people may take a serious look at custom moves. Such investigation, at worst, will simply look bad for custom moves; but for any other outcome, will add so much extra lasting strategy to the game.

 

[xpnet]

So if we allow DS coping that adds at most 3 mins to the start of every match?

Can't we put together a matchup system that knows which WiiU system each bracket will be in and they can do the player coping before the matches start?

If your in brackets won't you know which players on which system will be matching up ahead of time, then when you register for a tourney you'll just indicate you have custom characters.

 

[Shamoz]

At first I was. against custom moves, but now I think that they're exactly what competitive smash 4 needs.

 

[SmashBro99]

Halberd is legal and Pilotwings isn't? Who even makes these decisions?

Custom moves should be explored more.

 

[~Burst~]

No character should be banned at this point.
As for stages, a few more should be tournament viable such as Skyloft and Pilot Wings. Pilot Wings may seem like a joke of a stage for competitive play, but it has 1 stage hazard (I think?) being the ring structure you pass through, chances are, you won't be that high when it passes by. Plus, Halberd has the cannon, laser, and extending arm.. Skyloft should also be viable since it is, for the most part, platforms. Castle Siege and Delfino are in, so why can't Skyloft? I know it has some weird stops on the way through its' run but it's better to have more stages than very few, especially when choices are so limited and everyone seems to just go to the Animal Crossing ones which get boring, especially with the music.

Skyloft yes
Pilot wings? no
Pilot wings completely removes blast zones from play multiple times and has more than 1 hazard.

On top of that the planes themselves have areas that encourage camping and make it impossible to edge guard set characters.
All around it halts offensive play and gives losing players a chance to do things with no regard for their current deficit.

 

[Pale Tuna]

Skyloft yes
Pilot wings? no
Pilot wings completely removes blast zones from play multiple times and has more than 1 hazard.

On top of that the planes themselves have areas that encourage camping and make it impossible to edge guard set characters.
All around it halts offensive play and gives losing players a chance to do things with no regard for their current deficit.

Ah, thought it only had 1 area that you could get hit by. I hardly go to this stage, so I never experienced getting hit by the bridge. While it is true that players can camp, isn't this the same for Delfino? We saw what happened at APEX. I can certainly see the stage tipping really throw off matches since characters like Dr. Mario would have it harder to recover. Yes, it would be hard to edgeguard specific characters but this wouldn't this stage fall under counterpicks then? Lylay made it and the stage not only tips, but has that weird glitch.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

The ban on custom moves is based purely on logistics, yes? I don't like the 3DS idea because it limits the options for players who do not have Smash 3DS. I'm in favor of working as a community to farm moves (equipment should stay banned) to have them all unlocked by a certain date. I think the competitive aspect would be greatly enriched with configurable move sets.

 

[Wobz]

Smooth lander badge should be given a try
as well as some character balancing using badges

 

[Firehyphen]

There you go:

stop watching as soon as i heard him talk

 

[warriorman222]

stop watching as soon as i heard him talk

Why?

 

[t!MmY]

"The Smash 4 community has had a number of bans put in place very early in the life cycle of the game, namely custom moves and Mii Fighters."

Custom moves are not "banned", they are options to be toggled ON/OFF as seen with other options (e.g. item toggle).

Disallowing Mii as a character would be placing a "ban" on that character. Considering there's nothing ban-worthy about Mii they should be allowed up to the same extent as any other character.

Carry on.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I don't quite see the point of this, we are using everything we CAN use in terms of stages, really. Hell, halbert is legal. You can't really blame them for not using stages like Pokemon stadium 2.

Yes, you can, and I will. There is no reason to ban PS2 and the only people who would ban it are people too ****ing lazy to adapt to it! There are at least 14 stages in this game that are completely legitimate for competitive play. At least.