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Weekly Match-up Discussion~ #2: Wario

DTP

L o s t - in reality~
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Image by *zaratus

Wario


Alright, we're now on Week 2 and I've decided that Wario would be a fun character to do next. We should get a good discussion going for Wario.


What to think about.


- Wario's Aerial mobility = Top tier
- He can weave in and out and effectively air camp
- His killing potential is about on par with ours, maybe even greater
- Grab release options. What can we do here?



Here's a great way to discuss match ups if you want to use it. Mentioned by Teneban.
1) First thoughts
2) What followups after a jab do we have ?
3) Approaching
4) Defense & camping
5) Edge game
6) The KO stuff
7)Stage stuff
More will be posted later. I have stuff to do >__>
 

A2ZOMG

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Vs Wario.

Up-angled F-smash is invaluable in this matchup. Wario prides on his mobility to approach from various angles, and the Up-angled F-smash is a tool that can really come in handy for covering the 45 degree angle, especially because it has low ending lag.

Saving Up-smash is also pretty important in this matchup, because aside from possibly landing that Up-angled F-smash, Up-smash is probably your most viable KO move. Save that Up-smash until like 125% at least if I recall.

There are no unblockable Jab followups on Wario except for repeated Jab cancels (and of course grabbing), so don't get too greedy with that Jab D-smash or Jab Up-B.
 

napZzz

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I think if I remember right luigi can do a grab release where he does down taunt to up b. I've never tried but heard it, then again it could be totally wrong. But onto the real ****

Luigi performs rather well in a close combat game in the air vs. wario, but it can be tough to get inside of him if he's moving around correctly. Nair can be a good combo breaker to avoid his little follow ups but dont be predictable with it or they might bait and punish it.

Luigi should try to get a little lead on wario and camp him to force him to approach, because then it can be difficult for the wario if luigi is spacing things correctly and this makes it much easier to net a kill move.

I personally think its 5:5 because killing wario is a *****, and he has the waft/fsmash (which are easy as **** to land and kill you at dumb percents). Other than that it kinda just goes back and forth with no real advantages on the other one.
 

TreK

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Haha a good Wario just decided to join my crew, this will be a good time to experiment :p
I need to sleep, I may write down what I know tomorrow but I'm still unsure about this MU so I won't wall-of-text-ize "^^
 

hippiedude92

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Wishing Apex 2012 happened again.
l think biglou and luigiking and possibly papa PX? have some good experiences on this matchup.

the less mistakes you make the greater you'll have better chances of winning. and prepare for massive long 9 min matchs lol
 

PhantomX

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Nappy, I have never seen more wrong things written in one post than after reading yours.

I'll post my knowledge after HOBO this weekend.

Two things to keep in mind. Luigi can't camp Wario, but the matches will still take a long time due to Luigi's high priority, high danger moves.
 

napZzz

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Nappy, I have never seen more wrong things written in one post than after reading yours.

I'll post my knowledge after HOBO this weekend.

Two things to keep in mind. Luigi can't camp Wario, but the matches will still take a long time due to Luigi's high priority, high danger moves.
lol point them out please then. Half it is kinda theorycraft.

You really should point it out tho, I'd like to see whats so wrong about it.
 

LuigiKing

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This is a suuuuuper fun matchup. Just to throw it out there I think its 55:45 Luigi.

Grab release: Wario won't pop up into the air unless he mashes jump at some point before your grab release, so against an experienced wario just throw them. He WILL, however, go into the air if you let him go while holding him over the edge. In that case, you get a free Fsmash.

Usmash is the best KO move against Wario, I just sit around in shield and wait for him to get too close sometimes. Fireballs are only sorta useful though, because he can actually punish the ending lag if you miss. Also, if you have a percent lead, sometimes it works to just sit in place with a green missile on a flat stage. Wario will be forced to approach, and if you place yourself in an awkward place, you can sometimes hit him with it.

Also Wario has no aerials (barring waft) that beat your Uair.

Stages... ermm... I like Yoshi's.
 

JonnyManya

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Just to note, watch the clock during this match.
After a minute, Wario's Waft is at its strongest point.
His clap is annoying as hell, so avoid going above him or else he will set up for it.
Also, I've noticed recently that approching Wario with bair's is good.
Things to watch out for:
Waft
Clap
Fsmash
Bike (It spikes!)
Forward Tilt
Boost Smash
Mouth Grab
Drill

Oh, and Wario doesn't really enjoy Corneria. I could be wrong but it's just from what I remember when I played him.
 

CR4SH

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OK, the one thing I know for sure. Run away from the dair. I tried for a while to challenge it. Because of luigi's aerial prowess I figured I could find a way to power through it, and it would give me a great punishment opportunity every time I saw it coming. It's just not worth it. Roll away.

I don't get to play warios a whole lot, but I know a few things I guess. I've played crunch, pops and blue rogue a number of times, but they're not all that great. Ummm, nair and dair if timed correctly will punch through his uair and seem to generally be a better option than airdodging if you're feeling threatened. Since wario moves laterally and vertically faster than luigi an airdodge can often mean certain death.

Umm, dont get bit. Bite hurts. If wario lands near you but outside your grab range, be afraid. Just like anyone you can jab and grab combo him, because you're luigi. So take advantage of that.

If you see the fart charged, don't panic and change your playstyle dramatically, its generally just a recipie for getting chipped at for lots of damage overall. Just keep your thinking cap on and be alert.

Moveset for moveset I think it's pretty clearly in luigi's favor. HOWEVER, luigi is slow and wario is fast. This allows wario to dance around an pick his spots. So at the end of the day, with two smart players I think it ought to be just slightly in wario's favor.
 

elheber

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I'm no pro against Wario, but if he's in the air then your shield is your best friend. I've always felt that the tactics and strategies that work against Falco/Fox also work well against Wario; thought I'm not sure if this is really true and I'm actually just trippin' on acid.

I also know that you can't out-camp him... in other words: if you both try to camp, he'll come out on top. This doesn't mean you shouldn't camp or play defensively if he's being aggressive, though. We Luigi mainers get more KOs from the FJP than Wario mainers from the waft anyway.

Other than that, I don't have much experience with this matchup.
 

TreK

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if he's biting, aim for the headshot ; the hitbox of the grab doesn't cover it. Or land behind him if possible. You can fireball it from the front, but it won't get you a chance to follow up, you should only do it if you know he's about to release his B button and you don't have the time for anything else...

Uair is beaten by a well spaced falling cyclone ; you can mindgame into it by b reversing it
In fact I love the cyclone in this match, it beats all his aerials if spaced, so it is a great tool to limit him. It's still punishable and doesn't allow for follow ups, but it's a reliable tool at least, unlike vs Snake/Diddy/whatever

Wario is **** hard to kill, because he's both heavy, and untouchable ._.
I need tips here, it's my biggest weakness in this matchup.

Your mindset should be "outspace him, and keep the lead.". You should NOT mind the fart ; in fact if he hits you with it, it means he could've hit you with another move you should've avoided anyway.


That's about it, now for my questions... :V

-I get pwnd when hanging on the ledge : bite and ftilt beat about everything I have seriously, is there a way around it ?
-Just thought about it ; hitting the bike makes your hitboxes bigger and longer ; so I wonder if it would be possible to upB Wario out of his bike if the bike got shielded (=you slide with it) or powershielded (=no lag). I didn't think about it in matches, I usually full shield it and nair him with the shield's slide's momentum so it's just me theorycrafting like a Susa here :V
-Which stages would you advice for ban, strike and cp ? I seriously have NO idea here
 

elheber

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-I get pwnd when hanging on the ledge : bite and ftilt beat about everything I have seriously, is there a way around it ?
One of the nicest options (thought not perfect) that isn't used so much, is the ledgehop Cyclone. It should work fine against Wario since he has no disjointed hitboxes. If you can learn to stall the cyclone, you can ledgehop away from the stage and cyclone stall back into the stage.

Still, 'taint nothing better than mixing up your ledge recoveries.

Keep *ucking those chickens.
 

JonnyManya

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Why should you not mind the Waft?
It's one of his best Kill Moves that comes out fast and unexpected (unless you know it's coming by watching the clock).
 

TreK

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Fart comes out fast and unexpected SO you should not bother avoiding it at all costs, keep on avoiding everything instead :
If you over focus on it, I bet you will get hit more by his other moves, and probably die from a fsmash you didn't expect, while he will still have a full fart ready to take your next stock where you will focus on his fsmash

On the other hand, if he can't hit you, he can't fart you
 

elheber

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I think it is too... which sort of shows that you should use Luigi's normal playstyle against Wario. Sort of like how Snake's normal tactics work fine against Luigi, Luigi's normal tactics work fine against Wario.

But where's the fireball?
 

ScAtt77

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Fireballs are really slow and they only travel horizontally, so its pretty easy for Wario to dodge it. They aren't that useful in this match up unfortunately. :/
 

chic

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good vid scatt but most warios i play against just aircamp and that wario was fighting you alot on the ground and being super aggro.

does anyone know if the boss vs phantomx set got recorded?
 

PhantomX

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Boss vs myself wasn't recorded, which is the saddest thing that I have ever come to experience.

I'll write up my knowledge and info on this tomorrow, probably.
 

DTP

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I might as well start on discussing this lol

Like I said in the OP, Wario's air mobility is too good. He can weave in and out to sneak in attacks, avoid attacks, bait moves (Air camp lol)
Luckily Luigi's aerials out prioritize Wario's. Still be careful though. Watch out for his uair.

Approching with fireball can work against a jumpy Wario (Which is like, all Warios). It limits his movement a bit. just don't go spamming it the whole match or you'll probably be punished for it.

Bite > Cyclone. I'm 99% sure anyways.


Wario can also safely use his fsmash against us. If he hits our shield we'll just slide away and we can't do anything. Only way to punish it really would be to power shield it =/
He has a few SA frames on this attack as well, which can potentially make or break a match.

Also, since we slide so far this can can push us off the edge which isn't the best position.
When on the legde look out for Wario's ftilt and bite. Ftilt has the most range out of all of Wario's attacks, as far as I know, and it can be tilted up or down. It can also kill fairly well.
Bite, well, just try not to get caught in it. If you predict that he'll use bite, just fireball?
I'm not too sure about our ledge options here.


Now about Wario's Bike.

Now it'll almost always be used as a recovery option. If it is used as an attack I'm pretty sure you can nair him out of it.
I'm not entirely sure how hard it is to Gimp Wario in general, but try to predict where he'll be going with his bike and hit him off of it. He can also recover with his waft so watch out for that.

If you find Wario's bike onstage, then don't hit it. This limits his recovery so instead try to get him offstage. Now a good Wario probably won't keep the bike on stage for long, if at all. But if it is then take advantage of this.

Waft kills super early. Half charged has more knock back than fully charged, but fully charged does 40+ damage iirc.
Waft is broken

A missed up b can easily get you killed here lol

I have no clue about stages in this match up :(
I don't really know where Wario does good or bad. Though I bet Wario ***** on Brinstar D;


Overall, I'd put this match up at 50:50. I honestly seems even to me O__o
Both have their advantages and disadvantages so matches can go either way here.
 

kigbariom

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Quick question. What is the real match-up discussion? The ☆ Official Luigi Match-Up Thread! ☆ or this??

Also, it occurred to me. We hate having to re-do match-up thread every 3 months. Why don't we keep this kind of idea and have more than one at the same time. That way, we don't get burned out before it is over. We can get all characters done for once in Luigi boards history. And last, we can have more stuff to chat about in one day, making the boards (seem) a bit more lively...

Your thoughts...?
 

CR4SH

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Just because I haven't seen it mentioned, just about anything luigi has will knock him off his bike. Tornado, bair, any other aerial placed correctly. But I don't see this being a real factor against a good wario.
 

PhantomX

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Rather than writing up my own giant post, I'll quote some and point out fallacies or agree with points made.

I might as well start on discussing this lol

Like I said in the OP, Wario's air mobility is too good. He can weave in and out to sneak in attacks, avoid attacks, bait moves (Air camp lol)
Luckily Luigi's aerials out prioritize Wario's. Still be careful though. Watch out for his uair.

Approching with fireball can work against a jumpy Wario (Which is like, all Warios). It limits his movement a bit. just don't go spamming it the whole match or you'll probably be punished for it.

Bite > Cyclone. I'm 99% sure anyways.


Wario can also safely use his fsmash against us. If he hits our shield we'll just slide away and we can't do anything. Only way to punish it really would be to power shield it =/
He has a few SA frames on this attack as well, which can potentially make or break a match.

Also, since we slide so far this can can push us off the edge which isn't the best position.
When on the legde look out for Wario's ftilt and bite. Ftilt has the most range out of all of Wario's attacks, as far as I know, and it can be tilted up or down. It can also kill fairly well.
Bite, well, just try not to get caught in it. If you predict that he'll use bite, just fireball?
I'm not too sure about our ledge options here.


Now about Wario's Bike.

Now it'll almost always be used as a recovery option. If it is used as an attack I'm pretty sure you can nair him out of it.
I'm not entirely sure how hard it is to Gimp Wario in general, but try to predict where he'll be going with his bike and hit him off of it. He can also recover with his waft so watch out for that.

If you find Wario's bike onstage, then don't hit it. This limits his recovery so instead try to get him offstage. Now a good Wario probably won't keep the bike on stage for long, if at all. But if it is then take advantage of this.

Waft kills super early. Half charged has more knock back than fully charged, but fully charged does 40+ damage iirc.
Waft is broken

A missed up b can easily get you killed here lol

I have no clue about stages in this match up :(
I don't really know where Wario does good or bad. Though I bet Wario ***** on Brinstar D;


Overall, I'd put this match up at 50:50. I honestly seems even to me O__o
Both have their advantages and disadvantages so matches can go either way here.
First of all, there is no such thing as aerial priority. The only thing that matters is range of moves and the speed at which they come out. Luigi's nair is faster than all of Wario's aerial options, but it lacks range. On the other hand, a lot of their other aerials come out at similar speeds and have similar ranges, meaning that, in the air, there is a lot of trading of hits going on (unless Wario gets you above him, b/c Wario's upair has monster range). Don't let us get below you or you will be in for a lot of hurt, especially with an air speed as poor as yours. All your aerials are biteable (except cyclone, which I'll get back to later). Bite's hitbox actually extends to the top right part of his head, so if you want to hit him out of it, you need to hit him from behind or directly above.

Do not approach with fireballs, they have enough lag for us to punish with down airs. Fireballs should be used primarily for retreating/zoning and as a mixup from the ledge to try to get back on. Fsmash will never be used when you're planted safely on the ground, Crash, b/c then you can get a free fire punch from it since it's so laggy, it will be used on landing frames (ideally), which is a lot safer and more likely to hit. Do everything in your power to not get hit offstage or the ledge, b/c that's when Wario REALLY puts the hurt on Luigi. Wario's ftilt beats out absolutely every move you have, no exceptions. Add to this the fact that it's a solid kill move and it has stupidly long range, and you are in trouble from the ledge. Be really really smart about using cyclone/missile to recover or you will be eating offstage wafts left and right.

Bike shouldn't be used on stage ever, unless you roll a lot and they're punishing that, and Luigi doesn't really have the tools to gimp Wario out of his recovery if he's doing it right... hell, barely anybody does. Luigi's saving grace in this matchup, aside from the aerial speed/priority. Is that he can kill Wario as soon as Wario can kill him (percentage wise). Due to the versatility and greater range/safer kill options Wario has compared to Luigi, this matchup is, imo, 55:45 in his favor, at BEST a 60:40. Expect them to take a long time, though, not because of aircamping, but b/c Wario has to be super safe against Luigi or he'll die.
 

DTP

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Quick question. What is the real match-up discussion? The ☆ Official Luigi Match-Up Thread! ☆ or this??

Also, it occurred to me. We hate having to re-do match-up thread every 3 months. Why don't we keep this kind of idea and have more than one at the same time. That way, we don't get burned out before it is over. We can get all characters done for once in Luigi boards history. And last, we can have more stuff to chat about in one day, making the boards (seem) a bit more lively...

Your thoughts...?
These separate Threads are where the actual match up discussion will take place. The other is is where I'll be compiling all of the information into one organized thread :)

And if you guys really want to we can do 2 characters at once or something? Anymore than that and I'd have too much work on my hands here.
Regardless, I plan on completing this thing :D


First of all, there is no such thing as aerial priority. The only thing that matters is range of moves and the speed at which they come out.
Ah that's good to know :)
All your aerials are biteable (except cyclone, which I'll get back to later).
Wait, but if both characters are on the ground than would bite work against cyclone? No idea if this makes a difference or not, but I swear I've been bitten out of cyclone before.
 

elheber

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With the exception of needing to use the fireball less, it seems this matchup is business as usual for Luigi. Pretty much all the do's and don'ts for Wario are the same do's and don'ts for most other characters. It can really be dialed in. Also, Luigi has a real tough time WoP or gimping Wario, so it's nearly pointless to try (doesn't mean you shouldn't IMO).

I think it's 60:40 Wario... but I suck at this matchup so I'm not too sure. Fantastic Phantex.
 

kirbywizard

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This match feels like hell, and back in a good way. It's a fun match up up, and you do not want to fall even slightly behind, seeing it's harder for you to get an easy KO on Wario then it is for him to get a KO on you. This match up depends greatly on the stage ( something I have little input on)

The air strikes feels like trying to fight a guy for the last piece of pizza at school, it's always an exchange of hits and back. However Wario has a somewhat easier time doing hit, and run tactics in the air, but a well placed Tornado can help. I don't see Nair being that useful in the air when fighting Wario as I'm sure it get's beaten by Bite. I would mix in a fireballl every once in while seeing that it gets punished easily. Yeah air fights feel like hell, and back. Avoid going above him, or you'll get clamped pretty soon. Bite, Fair, Up air, and dair are most likely the main things to worry about in my opinion.

Last time I check we can Up B, or UP SMash him after our Jab, so that can mean a quicker KO for us. But he is just so ****ing heavy >_>

I think it's 50/50 even for this match up.
 

PhantomX

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You can't do anything guaranteed to Wario after jabs unless he DIs into you or up, so that just made it uneven from your arguments, lol.
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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This matchup is 50-50...Luigi does better on smaller stages, wario can air camp on large stages. Luigi's N-air, Back air, fireballs, and down b are key in this matchup. Just save killing moves so Wario doesn't survive to 140+.

Strike FD and smashville

Prefer YI, BF, and whatever other stage (whether it be PS1 or LC) for the neutral.

Ban Brinstar and FD. If only 1 ban, Ban Brinstar...seriously, that stage is just dumb vs. Wario.
 

LuigiKing

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I think 55:45 is roughly the consensus then? Sounds good to me, though you have to be careful counterpicking with this one.

Can we please do peach next? I need halp.
 

yoshq

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I think 55:45 is roughly the consensus then? Sounds good to me, though you have to be careful counterpicking with this one.

Can we please do peach next? I need halp.
with peach spam fireballs! knock her out of the air whenever you can, and never get hit by fair
 

DTP

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I think 55:45 is roughly the consensus then? Sounds good to me, though you have to be careful counterpicking with this one.

Can we please do peach next? I need halp.
I main Peach =D
So you think I'd have a lot to say about the match up, but I can't think of anything right now for some reason O__o

Anyways, I was planning on doing a gay, boring match up next like Marth, and then IC's. We do Peach fairly soon though since you asked :)

Do we feel like we're ready to move on already? .__.
It feels like we haven't discussed much....
But once I compile everything I'm sure we'll have a good chunk of info
 
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