Weekly Character Discussion: Luigi

[Overswarm]

The eternal understudy.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Everytime i face luigi i'm scared to death of getting jab-jab to up b combod..

 

[Deleted member]

jab up B is win.

 

[chillindude829]

he has maybe the most unexpectedly powerful fsmash in the game. although kirby might win in that category

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Up-angled Fsmash is WTF fast for its strength. Its a great attack.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

Since I made this character's hint, here's the explanation for it...

Aim for Dazwa

This is the first step of the hint, and although not much is given, the goal of the hint seems more than obvious when you realize it. You're supposed to look at my AIM profile (Dazwa070) and find funny conversations with friends I saved, including this fake one...

Dazwa070: http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/6568/agrdefcatpc9.jpg
Sliq1337: AGGRESIVE CAT IS AGGRESSIVE
Sliq1337: DEFENSIVE CAT IS OVERSWARM

The mentioning of Overswarm in the conversation, while it may seem normal, is actually a nod to the fact that conversation is SBR related and thus, a key to the puzzle. The next step is in the picture...

Hidden in the picture (which, unfortunately, is pretty easy to spot, I had intended to make it harder and require adjusting contrast or brightness to reveal it, but couldn't get it to work...) is a series of what seem to be random letters and numbers...

taDHl6xEDpE

But if you know your way around the internets, you might notice it looks strikingly similar to a youtube video url, which gives you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taDHl6xEDpE

Going to this video, you find a video uploaded by a "PKLUVA," (who was a username key to solving last week's puzzle), titled "???????????." It's a simple video, displaying

STUDY
---------
ETERNAL

And playing some music. The song is being played backwards, and is the SMB3 tune redone in Mario Galaxy, to key people into realizing it's a Mario character (and potentially making them over assume it's Mario), but that ignores play on words given above (with thanks to Overswarm). It translates to "Eternal Understudy," which is what Smash 64 referred to Luigi as.

Unfortunately I haven't played very much Luigi, and even less against him.

His jab->up+B and F-smash are both incredibly scary.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Quite possibly my favorite hint thus far. Just plain amazing. My hat's off to you, Dazwa.

 

[Mic_128]

Best taunt, hands down.

Incidently, I've seen a few times that Luigi can get 'stuck' in the side of some stages with his forward B, but haven't been able to replicate it. Anyone know if you need anything in particular? (Full charge, Misfire?)

 

[g-regulate]

i think you have to misfire into a wall, and the tip part of ledges

 

[Zankoku]

Wow, Dazwa, you're gonna be leading everyone into making conspiracy theories with this one.

 

[Virgilijus]

Best taunt, hands down.

Incidently, I've seen a few times that Luigi can get 'stuck' in the side of some stages with his forward B, but haven't been able to replicate it. Anyone know if you need anything in particular? (Full charge, Misfire?)

I've been able to do it consistently if you fully charge or misfire into a flat surface.

 

[Mew2King]

i really doubt kirbys f smash is that strong, i think it kills MK at like 95% or something usually, i know luigi's is stronger

up B kills MK at 43% i heard, so jab up B kills at 40. Boss did that to Forte to beat him.

 

[KishPrime]

Kirby's fsmash IS that strong.

I've killed the heavies around 90-100 depending on stage location.

Nevertheless, this is not about Kirby, and I don't know how it matches with Luigi's.

 

[Drab Emordnilap]

If you use Ocarina to give Luigi Wario's moveset, he shoots bikes instead of fireballs with his neutral B.

 

[KishSquared]

Luigi's f-smash is one of the few moves that can kill Bowser below 100%. In my opinion, it's far stronger than Kirby and G&W f-smashes. It's also faster than Kirby's and as fast as G&W's, +/- a frame. Luigi's up-B obviously kills as well.

His aerials combined with air-dodges make him a beast in the air. He slides away when shielding which prevents him from shield-grabbing, but he also escapes a lot of "combos" this way.

Luigi is heavier than you'd think. He survives very well when hit sky-ward, and Luigi is VERY difficult to edge-guard this game. He's quite difficult to kill - again speaking from Bowser's perspective, he's one of the only characters that tends to die at a higher % than Bowser does in the matchup.

I honestly think Luigi is high-tier. He's extremely underused right now, though. I really couldn't even say that I know his weaknesses.

 

[Kel]

Up-angled Fsmash is WTF fast for its strength. Its a great attack.

Also, if you angle his Fsmash upward it has IASA frames and can be done in succession.

Luigi has amazing low-percentage combos with Nair-Utilt-uair and fair. He has the new Jigglypuff rest, and therefore always has his opponent worrying about getting jab- up Bd.

You have to crouch down after a jab to get the up B off quickly.

Luigi's problem is that he has a blind spot in front/ below him in the air and has no real way to approach other than the air. At least, that's what I've noticed while playing against Luigi. I could be wrong here.

I know Luigi's down B can be used to swipe away projectiles like Pikachu's thunder jolt.

Luigi definitely has potential.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

luigi is great - amazing priority ko's at low percents has a fair combo game and a solid recovery (down b is karazay)

he lacks in raaaaaaange and as kel said that little tiny spot below and in front of him - but that's not so bad.

anyone with more range than him seems to destroy him and anyone with equal/less range than him seems to GET destroyed BY him XD

I'd like to see a top level Wii-G though.

 

[Dr Drew the Dragon]

anyone with more range than him seems to destroy him and anyone with equal/less range than him seems to GET destroyed BY him XD

Couldn't agree more... too bad all the good characters (and some of the bad) have good range and Luigi doesn't. Part of why I dropped him quickly after trying to pick him up early on in Brawl.

He can't really get inside on anyone to start combos/kill without wavedashing

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Also, if you angle his Fsmash upward it has IASA frames and can be done in succession.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

 

[Cyphus]

luigi is upper mid in my book. (he's currently my 3rd best) up angled f.smashes ****. Kill MK at 75%ish?
i dont have much luck pulling off the Jab-UpB on MK. Assuming they know the matchup, it goes right back in MK's favor..and he will avoid the jab with his superior reach and speed.

spam sex kick to break out low juggles and follow it up w/ uptilt.

you can really **** with people using this string: d.throw, SH upair, sex, jab, grab-repeat
it works amazing.

if you tornado at any point above the ground, when u land u have full speed in any direction (as if u did it on the ground)
so you can surprise people from a roll-distance away often, especially after throwing out a fireball.

i dont find much use for his f.air and d.air anymore...they've been nerfed too much. His b.air and upair are still useful, always followed with a sex to uptilt/smash.

his range is trash and in the air he can really suffer from being too slow to make it back to the ground. additionally, his approaches can become awfully stale and predictable sense he relies on SH approaches too much.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Looks like people are finally getting the hint.

Took them long enough :D

 

[Arash]

anyone who gets infinite'd by King Dedede without him moving can't be too good imo

 

[Overswarm]

Luigi definitely has some strong weaknesses... his recovery, good as it might seem at first, is really easy to gimp. Especially with ROB!

Despite that, I think Luigi has enough options to get around these weaknesses while still maintaining all his good offensively capabilities.

 

[omegablackmage]

i want to say that the standing infinite can be escaped by mashing quickly. I believe that you have to do grab hits inbetween each throw to avoid the dthrow going stale. So im pretty sure if you mash hard you can get out of the infinite, don't quote me on any of this

 

[KishPrime]

That's a really big issue, and it would be nice to see that confirmed.

 

[Overswarm]

i want to say that the standing infinite can be escaped by mashing quickly. I believe that you have to do grab hits inbetween each throw to avoid the dthrow going stale. So im pretty sure if you mash hard you can get out of the infinite, don't quote me on any of this

You can get out of it before 30%; I know I did that lal the time with ROB before 30% anyway. After that, one hit + d-throw worked a lot.


Anyway, synopsis:


Luigi, like a few other rare characters, runs hot and cold. When he's doing well, he's doing WELL. Incredibly amazing KO potential with his crazy up+b (so much better than rest) that can be done out of a jab combo if your opponent doesn't DI, great combo potential, the ability to approach with one aerial and retreat with another all in the same jump, the ability to shield an attack then slide far away to prevent shield pressure... these all help him. On the flipside, his poor recovery (edgeguarding-wise, not distance-wise), his poor OOS options, his predictability, and his poor recovery all hurt him.

Luigi is a character that can be "mastered" very easily in terms of offensive capability. Defensively is a whole other matter and is what will really set apart the good Luigi's from the bad. Even the worst Luigi's will get a jab to up+b off from time to him, or perhaps edgeguard with a series of bairs. Simple things like finding out how strong his f-smash is can make the worst Luigi player dangerous... but unfortunately, this merely clouds the waters. The best Luigi players will be the ones that always get back to the stage and have found ways to reliably approach and to create openings rather than capitalize on enemy mistakes.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

*sigh* If Luigi just had a bit more range or speed on the ground, he'd be so much more fun to play :/

Everything after this post is general discussion.

 

[Overswarm]

I think this is as fast as we've ever done it Panda. *high five*

nohomo

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I just got back in time to catch you as you wrote it. It seems we're in sync with the updates now :D

 

[cutter]

The big problem I see with Luigi is his severe lacking of disjointed hitboxes. All of his aerials extend his hurtbox and that is a huge problem against characters like MK, G&W, and Marth. He struggles big time against disjointed hitboxes.

It doesn't help he gets infinited by DDD... Luigi has nightmare matchups against most of the top tier (MK, G&W, Marth, and DDD). If he didn't have such horrific matchups against those characters, he'd be SO much more popular in tournament play.

 

[Pearl Floatzel]

I love playing as Luigi if only because it feels, like Sonic and MK, that you should always be in their face. I think that Luigi requires a bit more thinking than MK, though, because of his bad range.

 

[mr_kennedy44]

Luigi's lack of range plus the fact that he does poorly against the top tier characters are what's killing him tier-wise. (The infinite from King Dedede doesn't help much either.) If more people started using him then I think that he has the potential to make high tier.

 

[CR4SH]

SHORYUUUKEN!!!

I can't wait for what hippie and elhber have to say. Not to mention wigi, lking, grinch and the rest.

Win. Go luigi.

Luigi is a character that can RAAAAAAAAAPE, or can get destroyed. You can get a character to killing %s with one jab and string of attacks from 0%, which is hilarious, considering what brawl is. Basically, if your opponent makes mistakes, you want to be luigi. The big problem is, he has problems with safety. The fact that safety is the crux of brawl makes things worse. Yes luigi has unbelievable priority, it comes at the cost of weird hurtboxes (wtf? why did you hit me? Oh my fsmash hit the tip of your toe on your ftilt). Luigi can destroy people like no other character I know, when your opponent doesn't react accordingly. However, bad matchups and bad hurt/hitbox situations pull him back farther than I'd like to see (*cry*cry*).

And yes, luigi has his way with bowser, to an extent that almost seems criminal. Quote bowser "I'm a big sad dinosaur T.T"

I love playing as Luigi if only because it feels, like Sonic and MK, that you should always be in their face. I think that Luigi requires a bit more thinking than MK, though, because of his bad range.

Yes, in an ideal world, as luigi, you would spend every moment nearly overlapping your opponent. The problem with luigi is getting there. Fireballs help, but convincing your opponent that in your face is where they want to be is a very difficult thing to do.

 

[LuigiKing]

Haha, right behind you cr4sh :D

Luigi does have nightmare matchups against some of the top tier. MK is nigh unplayable (Jem taught me this the hard way at EWU yesterday), Marth outranges you on everything while not extending his hurtbox, and D3 has the chaingrab. Luigi does in fact fair well against the likes of Falco and Snake though. From my experience he can nair out of Falco's chaingrab, but don't quote me on this.

As overswarm said, a good Luigi needs to CREATE openings rather than capitalize on mistakes, because I assure you, at high levels of play you cannot count of them making a mistake. Luigi's need to excell at powershielding, because a powershielded aerial or dash attack can lead to a free uppercut for a sick kill. Luigi does have range issues, but he has a projectile (albeit a sub par one), and a great approach in the tornado. I fake so many people out rushing with a tornado after a short hop.

What else is there to say.... Nair *****?

I personally think after us Luigi mains get our act together he is going to be high tier... if that happens. Then again thats what every mid tier board says :D I'll pass the torch to the next Luigi board regular now....

Edit: Forgot to add, Luigi has GREAT matchups against Olimar, Wario, and Diddy.... all high tier material.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Great approach with Tornado? It's okay against people who don't have projectiles when they whiff an attack, but against anyone who has a projectile, it's almost useless from what I've seen. Most projectiles will clash with it, stopping it dead in its tracks, eliminating any surprise factor it might have had.

Although Luigi can duck under lasers IIRC.

From my experience, Luigi doesn't exactly have 'ridiculous' priority on most of his attacks. N-air is great though because of the lingering hitbox, but it doesn't work against disjointed hitboxes (except for Olimar's fail priority hitboxes) and most well timed attacks at least trade hits with it. Ridiculous priority goes to Snake.

His U-smash like Mario's has decent range behind him mainly because he leans back a lot on the beginning. What also works is charging up a Hyphen Smash and you get to slide forward a ways.

His D-smash has good knockback, but bad range. You can sometimes land it from a spotdodge, but it has less range than Mario's since when it comes to breakdancing he does it wrong.

F-smash has low range, but really low ending lag which is awesome, so it's safe on block.

Luigi can use 3 B-airs in a fullhop which is cool. He can use even more U-airs. His F-air, wow, the startup and ending lag is nonexistent, I mean he could literally try applauding someone with his F-air.

For whatever dumb reason, his B-throw kills at about 15% or so lower than Mario's (Like, Mario's is moderately reliable at around 160%, but Luigi's starts working at around 145%). Does same damage.

 

[Greenstreet]

Luigi definitely has potential.

This probably sums it up the best. I mean, let's have a look at it. (I'll keep it short because noone likes a wall of text)

Moove Set Stoof: The man in green has fairly high priority in the air, fair combo potential, and a moveset that can be utilised in different ways depending on the player behind him. And although most people find his low traction a bit hard to get used to in the start, by the end, it stops repitive hits on his shield and depending on the hit (and %), will put him at a safe distance.

It's already been stated but that F-smash is flippin great guns. But his other smashes have their place too. I think (please don't quote me) I remember his U-smash coming out faster in the frame data, and his D-smash isn't exactly slow either

B-air WoP's are possible for Luigi and it's been stated a million times around the boards that N-air is possible the greatest move in his moveset. Reliable KO and combo-ing move in one.

His specials are ok, but they certainly don't define him (unlike MK's). A SH'ed D-air to tornado is a terrific setup, although the tornado is useful alot of situations.
I think enough has been said about the FJP...but yer...powerful...instills fear...unfortunately edge-gaurdable.
The green missile is pretty hard to implement into an offensive game, or even any game for that matter. Most Luigi's ignore this unless the go flying off the edge.

And finally his fireballs, although useful sometimes, the lag can be a downfall as well as their poor speed and range.

Overall Stuff: I guess what puts Luigi in middle tier, despite all the positive aspects he holds, is his defense. I think it was talked about in this week's discussion, but I might have a shot at it as well.

The problem isn't 'not getting hit', the real issue is, hitting back. I guess the main reason I mention that is his low traction, but I'll take the compromise to avoid shield pressure (because sometimes I get embarrassed by dropping my shield to early with other characters). Also due to his very low areial-speed, getting your self into defensively beneficial (<--sounds stupid I know) situations can be hard once your opponents starts figuring out your air game.

Another thing worth mentioning as to why Luigi isn't High-tier is his recovery. Alot people might be thinking "What?! Luigi's recovery sucks the doodle? I thought it was awesome." And it is awesome, don't get me wrong.. in theory.
Often in practice, people who get to used to an unpunished green missile will either rack up unneccessary or get Ko'd.

Conclusion: When I agree that Luigi has potential, I mean it in a few ways. He isn't showing his greatest potential because although his moveset has fairly distinct and easily-used advantages in offense, most players inability to use him defensively set him back. I am pretty sure it was stated in the summary for the week that a Luigi that can apporach reliably and also utilise a defensive game will be largely more effective than other Luigi's (that may or may not be intensely paraphrased). And I agree with this.
If anything needs to be developed in his professional game it is his defense. But I guess time will tell whether anything surfaces or not.
Anyway, let's get off players and back onto Luigi himself:
He boasts a fairly powerful moveset, coupled with the inability to be effectively shield pressured due to low traction. He has a gimpable recovery and a projectile that is slow moving. He won't be able to play campily, but instead rely on close combat and fast smashes. His slow aerial speed leaves a bit of a black mark on his aerial domination and his dash attack is hilarious.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

I personally think after us Luigi mains get our act together he is going to be high tier... if that happens.

I knew you'd come around eventually.

The SBR seems not to have mentioned that all of Wigi's aerials autocancel and that his down smash is a Swahilian technique for ****.

But, mmyes, potential.

 

[WIGI]

Well, heres my take on things

We all know WHAT luigi has, and we all know he does not exactly have whats needed fro the likes of metaknight. DDD i find is acualy no problem aside from his infinate, find a way to escape that, DDD will be no problem. With People liek Snake and G+W and Marth, we have moves and setups we can use against them, its just much harder to set them up due to range priorit ect issues.

Heres what im saying:

Luigi is not going to miracuously gain a new move in his arsonal to out range meta and marth and stuff in the air or on the ground. hes not going to whip out his hammer and smack you in the face. What we have to do instead is find new methods to use the setups/moves we already know in a way that provides a mroe reliable method against such characters. if it even exists. the only thing we ahve against meta is camp and punish when we can, witch again is not often.

i love luigi, his style and just the character in general. but ive come to realize unless we discover somthing that allows us to get through characters with long range in the air, Luigi will not be a viable tourney character simply because of the vast amount of metaknights out there.


P.S. Dtaunt ftw. \/\/\/\/

 

[hippiedude92]

Best taunt, hands down.

Incidently, I've seen a few times that Luigi can get 'stuck' in the side of some stages with his forward B, but haven't been able to replicate it. Anyone know if you need anything in particular? (Full charge, Misfire?)

It's basically a original wall cling version made for luigi. It's unreliable though mostly made for mindgames etc. And no misfire isn't required for it.

I'm actually surprised on what SBR had said on luigi espically on his fsmash lol

Luigi's one of those characters that instantly punish on your bad mistakes and that can go nuts with a offensive air game. He has a great KO potenital, combo potenital and fearing shoryukkkeenn!

IMo I think luigi has the potential to make it to at least somewhere lower high tier. He does pretty decent against the top/high guys, but the popular tourney played characters such as D3, MK, Marth and GaW is what holds luigi back from attaining that position. With d3's blasted infinited is a no go, Marth's disjointed hitboxs/and GaWs and MK's as well puts luigi in a bad postion. Also the lack of range is what hurts wigi.

As for disjointed hitboxs, that's what luigi lacks. He usually gets ***** by them instantly. But with others that don't have, he basically does equal or ***** them (as gimpy said earlier lol).

Im surprised on how they didn't mention about luigi's unique low traction. He gets one of the best hyphen smashs, he can escape combos, it increases his dsmash range. Although it does have drawbacks such as not abling to shield grab which is why powershielding plays a larger role for wigi, he can't follow up with combos, and its harder for him to do OOS options.

iirc, luigi does well against diddy, wario, does around equal against kirby/pika/lucario/rob/snake.

 

[ALiAsVee]

Im surprised on how they didn't mention about luigi's unique low traction. He gets one of the best hyphen smashs, he can escape combos, it increases his dsmash range. Although it does have drawbacks such as not abling to shield grab which is why powershielding plays a larger role for wigi, he can't follow up with combos, and its harder for him to do OOS options.

iirc, luigi does well against diddy, wario, does around equal against kirby/pika/lucario/rob/snake.

Oi Oi, not only that, but if you shield a hit close to the edge, you'll bounce off and grab the edge. That makes for some quick counterattacks.

Even if the moves have been nerfed, you still need all of luigi's aerials, because the airdodge crazy air games make for slippery opponents who won't stay in range.