We Have To Chill With The Buffs

[CT Chia]

I was talking to some people about this the other day, and I can't remember the term they used for it, but it happened to other games in similar situations. We've focused a lot on buffs but not really much on the nerfs. If we continue to buff everyone up then the game will be completely overpowered, and while in one sense it could be balanced, it could be ridiculous in another sense and filled with over powered characters. think sort of like 64 where almost everyone has a 0-death. while we wont get that much, if everyone is too good, we'l be trying to avoid combat and end up going back to a campy game.

I think maybe after we visit another 1 or 2 characters to buff up from the bottom, we start from the top down and start nerfing some characters. its easy to tell what should be added when trying to buff a character, but it takes true discussion to know what to nerf to balance a character effectively, and though we may not want to see some of the coolest parts of our mains be taken out, it has to happen.

 

[shanus]

umm, how is nerfing chars any different than buffing worse chars? Also, why would we want to nerf good characters rather than bring lackluster ones up to a higher potential of gameplay?

I dont even think we have a massive overhaul planned for anyone else besides ICs and *maybe* D3 and i think people wanted to do stuff with ganons wizkick and then most characters are probably ready to ship from there.

 

[Revven]

Here's the thing Chibo:

Who do we nerf? MK has already gone througha ****load of nerfs and to be frank, nothing's really do anything to him.

Snake isn't as ridiculous anymore, still powerful, but I don't think he can be right below MK anymore. DDD got nerfed from hitstun (losing his CG which is what made him so good in the first place), same with Falco. G&W is apparently not as good anymore either.

Who tha HELL do we nerf? Seriously? There's nobody to nerf, Chibo, only characters to buff... and or leave alone.

Honestly, there really isn't anyone TO nerf except MK (which kinda tells you something, doesn't it, Chibo?)

shanus also kinda nailed what I was thinking anyway.

 

[kupo15]

Here's the thing Chibo:

Who do we nerf? MK has already gone througha ****load of nerfs and to be frank, nothing's really do anything to him.

Snake isn't as ridiculous anymore, still powerful, but I don't think he can be right below MK anymore. DDD got nerfed from hitstun (losing his CG which is what made him so good in the first place), same with Falco. G&W is apparently not as good anymore either.

Who tha HELL do we nerf? Seriously? There's nobody to nerf, Chibo, only characters to buff... and or leave alone.

Honestly, there really isn't anyone TO nerf except MK (which kinda tells you something, doesn't it, Chibo?)

shanus also kinda nailed what I was thinking anyway.

Do you think you can attack people less? Your first post to someone's statement has been a mini flame post lately when there is no need to escalate it to that degree so early.

 

[goodoldganon]

'If one or a few characters are too good, why should we buff everyone up to their level. Who is the one that is 'outstanding' or 'out of whack'? It would seem the few that are too good, not that the ones that worse.'

That is what I believe your argument is Chibo? I agree and disagree. Personally, I feel we have been justified in MOST of the buffs and nerfs but I feel we are starting to enter a gray area now. Do the ICs/D3 truly need to be reworked?

It's boring but D3 can camp with B-air and minions and do well. Same with ICs except they use CGs. Either way after we finish with the small tweaks Ganon needs and the changes for D3 and ICs I think we will be good on characters. It seems like a lot of buffs but they really all came all at once. Either way, I wouldn't be too worried about.

 

[leafgreen386]

The term they used was "power creep," probably. It was brought up in the workshop recently. Really, it's impossible for it to happen with smash. Power creep has to do with obsoleting previous powerful options, thus having to make new options that are even better for people to want to use them, and so on and so forth, resulting in incredibly powerful options ruling the game and ending it incredibly quickly, really hollowing out the gameplay. It's usually applied to MMORPGs.

So why can't this happen with brawl+? Because we have the ability to nerf. We have the ability to reverse changes. If a buff makes a character far too good, then that one character can be reverted to a weaker form. We're also aiming for a specific level of power. We have a goal in mind. Right now, it's fairly broad, and is simply "until they feel about high tier." I'd like to take this a step further and say that I'd like for most characters to be around melee falcon good. If a character feels comparable to melee falcon, they're probably good to go. This means a character should be very dangerous, but they should also have weaknesses. A character with very few or no weaknesses (see: metaknight) should have their strengths brought down to compensate. As long as we don't ever overbuff characters where they are weak, we will never run into problems.

 

[kupo15]

^^^Yea, characters are not dangerous as melee characters were and if they are, its probably not in a good way for most of the cast. (like unnecessary move speed ups) I just don't get the fear I did in melee. I wish we could have that in brawl+...the good kind

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^The kind of fear where your fighting a Falcon, you're at 70%, and get grabbed and you think to yourself "OH ****!" And you go into DI like a madman panic mode.

 

[kupo15]

^^The kind of fear where your fighting a Falcon, you're at 70%, and get grabbed and you think to yourself "OH ****!" And you go into DI like a madman panic mode.

Exactly this. We need more of this!!

 

[Revven]

Well, how would we replicate more of "THAT!!"?

 

[leafgreen386]

Well, how would we replicate more of "THAT!!"?

Well step 1 is figuring out ways to speed this game up. >_>

I still feel that it's kinda slow, which in turn makes what could be dangerous options less so, since they're easier to react to and counter. If you want to recreate tense situations like that, you're first going to have to have a fast game to work with.

 

[goodoldganon]

And so it begins, what we wanted to avoid all along and it seems we want it to come to fruition. I don't want Melee 2.0. I think the speed and defensive options in Brawl+ are fine. I'm not going to get into this argument though.

 

[Ulevo]

I find it sort of ironic that you would want to fight the development of Melee 2, when the entire reason the community of Brawl is still thriving is due to the driving influence of the Melee community in the beginning. Without Melee, the greatness of Melee, there would be no Brawl.

In fact, reverting back to the roots of Melee, a game already proven itself worthy of a competitive community, would be the most intelligent thing to do. It's efficient, less time consuming, and success rate for the project is much higher than simply deciding arbitrarily what is "best" amongst ourselves when we have the desires of an entire community to fulfill.

That is not a point to argue, but merely a form of opinion. Food for thought.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Whatever happened to that global speed modifier? I think that would be an interesting place to look if we want more speed.

But my only fear is that we'll be thinking of melee Fox when making the speed changes. Melee Fox is very, very hard to get used to for newer players and that would be quite a drastic adjustment compared to what we have now. I'd rather go with a more moderate speed character like Marth or Mario or something like that in mind.

 

[Almas]

Well, there is already a global animation modifier, the only necessary code would be a global velocity modifier. That said I don't think it's wise. I guess I wouldn't say no to the entire game being a tiny bit faster, but I'm very focused on the tiny bit.

I'm inclined to disagree with you Ulevo. I'd love Melee 2.0, but Brawl simply isn't built for it. Attempts to draw in Melee features have been shown to just cause issues and imbalances that would need to all be carefully tweaked and fixed. It wouldn't be the kind of thing that could just be rushed, as most of the mechanics which now define the differences between Brawl and Melee aren't there purely because they don't translate in the transition between the games.

 

[kupo15]

Whatever happened to that global speed modifier? I think that would be an interesting place to look if we want more speed.

But my only fear is that we'll be thinking of melee Fox when making the speed changes. Melee Fox is very, very hard to get used to for newer players and that would be quite a drastic adjustment compared to what we have now. I'd rather go with a more moderate speed character like Marth or Mario or something like that in mind.

Well, I think gravity would be the best place to start. Before the plussery came about when it was Mookie, muba, and my sets up, no one had a problem with those sets. I "think" mine was preferred but I'm not sure. Anyway the point is, mine code set had 1.25 universal dgrav and everyone loved it. I remember that even cape said the plussery sets were not as fast as mine. But whichever set was preferred the most, the fact is that all three sets had more gravity than what we have now and no one complained and in fact, they enjoyed it very much.

I don't see how bringing that back would be any different. Dgrav does not affects jumps or up b's and thus, the jump corrections we made are not going to be affected. It also removes the problem of hitstun working wrong with the character division constants. With a universal dgrav, the hitstun proportion would be correct without needing a code to adjust for it. If it worked in the past without the luxury of the codes we have today, I don't see why it wouldn't work now.

Well, there is already a global animation modifier, the only necessary code would be a global velocity modifier. That said I don't think it's wise. I guess I wouldn't say no to the entire game being a tiny bit faster, but I'm very focused on the tiny bit.

I'm inclined to disagree with you Ulevo. I'd love Melee 2.0, but Brawl simply isn't built for it. Attempts to draw in Melee features have been shown to just cause issues and imbalances that would need to all be carefully tweaked and fixed. It wouldn't be the kind of thing that could just be rushed, as most of the mechanics which now define the differences between Brawl and Melee aren't there purely because they don't translate in the transition between the games.

Just because it has melee features doesn't mean its "melee 2.0" or that it would feel like melee. Thats like saying that melee is N64 2.0. Not all things can be recreated your correct like jumping. Right now, jumps work completely different. But higher gravity isn't going to destroy the game. In fact, higher gravity, lower hitstun sounds like a better game to me. I think the global speed code is a superficial "fix" that doesn't address the core problem to the speed issue. Several IRC members are interested in a higher gravity game also

 

[CT Chia]

one change that has always stuck out to me was the reverse knee for falcon

can someone please explain: why was this made? seriously.

not only does it completely not make sense with physics where if you hit someone with the back part of the knee they should go flying, but it took a high tier character, took his best kill move (which kills at ABSURDLY low percents), which could easily combo'd into, and made it even easier to. wtf?
people claimed here that it barely changed any matchups or any gameplay about him. if this was the case, why was it done in the first place. the first time i played andyg after that code was made he noticed it instantly without me even telling him, and he said it should be taken out for how much easier it makes it to land the strong hitbox of the knee. its like ppl are on this stupid meatride train that will stop at nothing to make him as cool and awesome as possible especially with emulating melee stuff that they have forgotten the true points of balancing the game.

Here's the thing Chibo:

Who do we nerf? MK has already gone througha ****load of nerfs and to be frank, nothing's really do anything to him.

Snake isn't as ridiculous anymore, still powerful, but I don't think he can be right below MK anymore. DDD got nerfed from hitstun (losing his CG which is what made him so good in the first place), same with Falco. G&W is apparently not as good anymore either.

Who tha HELL do we nerf? Seriously? There's nobody to nerf, Chibo, only characters to buff... and or leave alone.

Honestly, there really isn't anyone TO nerf except MK (which kinda tells you something, doesn't it, Chibo?)

shanus also kinda nailed what I was thinking anyway.

im sorry, but do you really playtest the game much? do you play it with good players often? (not online preferably) this post shows that your missing a ton of whats in the game.

you posted the top tiers from brawl and are trying to wonder how to nerf them in brawl+. besides the fact that almost the entire public is discontent with the sbr tier list (even myself and im in the sbr, also ask m2k for his top 10, its very different), brawl+ is not brawl. i think i need to say that again to make sure everyone realizes it lol brawl+ is not brawl. the engine is different now. speed is changed, theres no stale moves, there are combos, hitstun, shield stun, and much more. the tier list by itself has completely shifted.

while MK could possibly have another small thing or two nerfed since hes still top tier easily, hes def not the best. he does have some bad matchups now, but there are plenty of extremely hard matchups or stupid techniques with him that could be changed, but the main problem now is marth. marth can easily be the best character in the game. with the changes of stale moves and shield stun, his overB is ridiculously broken in this game. it can do over 20 damage everytime u use it, its safe on shield, good priority, spammable, and more. thats just one instance of a broken ailment of marth.

its obvious to see that some ppl back here havnt been playing it too much with many people as i remember someone in a thread that they thought luigi needed a lot of work and nothing has really come out of him in brawl+. hes up there as one of the best characters. vex believes he's 2nd best, and while idk about that per say, id say he could easily be top 5. he has insane aerial priority, good recovery, and like 500 different ways to combo into upB just to name some parts about it.

the top tiers in brawl+ are not the ones from brawl. the ones from brawl aren't the ones that need nerfing.

 

[kupo15]

one change that has always stuck out to me was the reverse knee for falcon

can someone please explain: why was this made? seriously.

not only does it completely not make sense with physics where if you hit someone with the back part of the knee they should go flying, but it took a high tier character, took his best kill move (which kills at ABSURDLY low percents), which could easily combo'd into, and made it even easier to. wtf?
people claimed here that it barely changed any matchups or any gameplay about him. if this was the case, why was it done in the first place. the first time i played andyg after that code was made he noticed it instantly without me even telling him, and he said it should be taken out for how much easier it makes it to land the strong hitbox of the knee. its like ppl are on this stupid meatride train that will stop at nothing to make him as cool and awesome as possible especially with emulating melee stuff that they have forgotten the true points of balancing the game.

I never felt that falcon's reverse knee made him imbalanced at all. He certainly doesn't reflect that in melee. I also trade the killing power for the reverse knee

 

[CT Chia]

u have a different kb set for the knee in the version u run than the one the WBR uses? we shoudl all kind of be on the same page... pretty bad if even the WBR members dont agree with the codeset lol

 

[kupo15]

u have a different kb set for the knee in the version u run than the one the WBR uses? we shoudl all kind of be on the same page... pretty bad if even the WBR members dont agree with the codeset lol

Ya. I test different things and then bring it to the table instead of being stuck by a forced code set. I think its better this way. I really like the way the knee is with this lowered kb

 

[Team Giza]

The only thing I have really agree with in this entire thread is that Marth needs a nerf.

I don't think we need to be doing many more buffs (besides maybe Ganondorf). But I do think Dedede and IC need some reworking.

 

[Ulevo]

Marth needs a nerf? What a joke. The only thing that is changed about Marth is his Dancing Blade kills now. Everything Chibo outlined about Dancing Blade is the same as it was in vBrawl, and so is Marth overall.

Marth needs a nerf. Oh boy.

 

[Team Giza]

In vbrawl, Marth's side+B is not nearly as shield pressuring as it is now. It sets up for some lengthy combos at low percentages now as well. It never depletes so its always a decent KO move at higher percentages. This is a move that comes out on frame 4 and punishes shields. Sure to some extent these things already existed but all functions of it have been amplified by the changes. It is now safer, more comboable, and a more reliable KO move. It is all around more spammable than it was in vBrawl. I'm amazed that you can just shrug all of that off.

Also, have you seen some of the insane juggles that Marth has now?

 

[Yeroc]

Ryoko brought this to my attention as well. I think it's a potentially troublesome issue that needs looking into Ulevo.

 

[Revven]

good[/B] players often? (not online preferably) this post shows that your missing a ton of whats in the game.

I do. I play Shell every so often and even though he's not quite as good as I am, he still puts up a decent fight. I also play against my friend SFG who plays Melee quite well (actually REALLY well) and in Brawl+, he ***** me so bad a lot because of my bad DI at some points. I also take Brawl+ to tourneys with me and get some action there against players and find out what needs to be looked at or hear people's opinions on it. I RARELY play online anymore, I take a bit of offense to this, Chibo.

you posted the top tiers from brawl and are trying to wonder how to nerf them in brawl+. besides the fact that almost the entire public is discontent with the sbr tier list (even myself and im in the sbr, also ask m2k for his top 10, its very different), brawl+ is not brawl. i think i need to say that again to make sure everyone realizes it lol brawl+ is not brawl. the engine is different now. speed is changed, theres no stale moves, there are combos, hitstun, shield stun, and much more. the tier list by itself has completely shifted.

while MK could possibly have another small thing or two nerfed since hes still top tier easily, hes def not the best. he does have some bad matchups now, but there are plenty of extremely hard matchups or stupid techniques with him that could be changed, but the main problem now is marth. marth can easily be the best character in the game. with the changes of stale moves and shield stun, his overB is ridiculously broken in this game. it can do over 20 damage everytime u use it, its safe on shield, good priority, spammable, and more. thats just one instance of a broken ailment of marth.

its obvious to see that some ppl back here havnt been playing it too much with many people as i remember someone in a thread that they thought luigi needed a lot of work and nothing has really come out of him in brawl+. hes up there as one of the best characters. vex believes he's 2nd best, and while idk about that per say, id say he could easily be top 5. he has insane aerial priority, good recovery, and like 500 different ways to combo into upB just to name some parts about it.

the top tiers in brawl+ are not the ones from brawl. the ones from brawl aren't the ones that need nerfing.

Mmmkay, maybe if the people I play with would play these characters that are allegedly the top tiers of Brawl+ then I would maybe I'd be able to suggest people to nerf. Sadly, there isn't a tier list, there aren't any tourney results to prove the cases, and I haven't personally experienced some characters in Brawl+ looking like they're top tier material except the characters you mentioned, Kirby, Diddy Kong, Fox, and whoever else there is.

The problem with trying to nerf characters is that it's going to be hard to convince everyone in the WBR that a character is top tier for so and so reasons if they haven't 1. played against that character enough to know they are that good and 2. there's not enough tourney results to prove that character is REALLY good.

I agree with Marth, Kirby, and Wario being really good, and that's partly because I have played against/as against my friends and at tourneys. Kirby is REALLY effing good, he counters MK, I swear or is at least even with him now.

Again though, we're not going to be buffing every single character in this game, Chibo. Only the characters who are still quite lack luster compared to someone like CF or Wario who both improved from the gameplay mechanics.

I just don't believe nerfing characters is on the cards atm unless you're MK (which we still need to fix his dumb planking with Uair).

Also, gaiz, you know Marth's Dancing Blade would be partially fixed if we had DAMAGE STALING! HOW ABOUT WE GET THAT CODE NOW? HMMM?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Also...Marth's side B is not safe on block Chibo. It may have quite a bit of shieldstun but it also has even more lag! It's really not that good of a shield pressure move. Sure it does a lot of shield damage, but it's just asking for an out of shield aerial. My only concern with it is that it's now a consistent kill move, but even that doesn't seem like it breaks him. That's no different than Snake's f-tilt, yet nobody has problems with that lol (only Snake's f-tilt is actually safe on block while Marth's DB is almost safe on block)

Oh...and if your pulling any combos with Marth after like 30%, it's because

1. Your opponent DI'd badly or
2. Your opponent did not airdodge.

Marth's combos are pretty much the same as in vbrawl (as in, they're not really combos, it's just him outranging your counter attacks and punishing airdodges). Now you just have less time to counter attack so attacks may not come out in time, and air dodging takes timing if you're playing on a lower buffer.


Marth is the perfect example of what I'd think is a borderline character, where we really should just wait and see what he plays like in tournaments.