WaveDashing In SSBB

[JFox]

This thread was made to replace this one: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=73054&page=1&pp=15 This one had become an immature flame war, without any intelligent discussion.

The WD was first found by the game creators, and than later by a luigi player. The WD, along with L canceling, is now defined as one of the most advanced techniques that separate the non-tournament players from the competitive smashers. With its ability to speed up a characters movements, the ability to move while doing smash attacks, the use of dodging and spacing, the technique is considered a must for serious smashers.

The question is will the creators keep the WD in the game, or will it be removed.

Its positive impacts on the game: Greatly increased mobility for slower characters such as IC's, Mewtwo, and of course Luigi. It helped them to climb up the tier list a bit, making them more playable in tournament.

Its Negative Impacts: It was not intended when the game creators made the game(although it was found out before the release). Many people say that it should not be used because it unbalances the game since the game creators to not take it into account while making the game.
It did in fact help certain characers that were already high up on the tiers, such as Fox and Marth. But it only helped them slightly..

The Wavedash allows Fox to use the feared "infinite shine", a technique that is considered cheap by many who don't understand it. Although the Infinite is deadly in theory, it is so difficult to perform(sorta) and set up for, that it can be easily avoided. Most Foxes rarely ever use it in tournament, even the best of Foxes. Marth does have a great WD in size, but it did not make him climb the tier list really. He still has great speed without it, and it only had a slight impact on his game.


The main reason most people who WD want to see it kept is this: Things like Wavedashing and Lcanceling, along with any other advanced technique, separates the dedicated from the ignorant. Many players won't take the game as seriously, so they do not use the technique, but are angry that it helps those who are dedicated to beating them. The people that use it feel they have earned their right to having an advantage, because they have worked hard for their skills. If they game were simple, torney play would fizzle. And so those who use it love it, and those who don't hate it.

My opinion: It is fair. Any character and any person can use this technique with just a little practice. I use it all the time. Does it give me a great advantage, no. But I will work as hard as I can for any slight advantage, because together they help me win tournaments. I personally hope it is in the next game because of its positive effect on the tournament scene.

OK- You may give your opinion, but only if you feel your responses are intelligent. I don't want to see anyone being called a noob or any other flames. Please keep the discussion based on the impact on the game as a whole, not on your own experiences. Its effects on the tiers and tournament scene should be discussed, along with any other intelligent subjects WaveDashing has had an impact on.

 

[Uncle Meat]

You really don't represent the con side very well. Maybe that's because they don't have any real points besides '***'.

 

[fluffy]

1st post.

i think that all the ppl who talks trash about wavedashing, cant even wavedash themselves.

**EDIT**
dammit. 2nd post =(

 

[JFox]

This is NOT the last thread, stop replying with stupid comments. If you have a con side that you would like to bring to the table, bring it up. If you have anything that strengthens the pro side, bring that up.

This is not a war, pro vs con. It is a civil discussion.

 

[h1roshi]

well another pro for wavedashing is that it helps with spacing...sometimes you just need to get to a certain spot or a certain distance away or towards your opponent....and a lot of times you only have a small window of time to get there so that you can perform whatever move you desire to ....in these cases, wavedashing can get you there fast enough and without the lag so that you can perform said move..

edit: in the last thread i really didnt see any true negatives...one that i saw though mentioned that wavedashing didnt make sense and that everything else did...how does l-canceling make sense but wavedashing doesnt....u press a button and now the lag of ur attack is cancelled and u can do any other move...how does that make sense....it doesnt....but the fact is...for this game...it doesnt have to make sense to fit in....so i am just giving more proof on how wavedashing is just improving the game of smash bros.

-hiroshi

 

[sn][p3r]

Ok so you might want WD or you might not but my question is: What is the button layout? If they make Shielding awkward WD might not be a big part of tournaments even if the creators add it in. IMO I really don't care. I don't play in tourneys and none of my friends can perform a WD.

 

[Shuriken]

Nice post JFox. I think you summed up the cons of wavedashing pretty nicely in "waveshining" (I'm not just hating I'm a Fox player) but it IS something that, with someone who is good at it, causes an instant 10-20 additional percent to something that should only be doing 5%. At the same time, it makes Falco that much more playable, because without waveshining Falco is *generally* a lot slower. Personally, I don't see any reason it should be taken out as it really doesn't make the game imbalanced for anyone except perhaps bowser. If wavedashing was something only a couple characters could do, it would be imbalanced, but as it is if someone thinks it is overpowered they should just spend an hour or so learning how.

 

[plasmawisp6633]

The *New* Wavedashing Topic

Ok Scav, you wanted a new topic about Wavedashing and you got one. I will offer both sides of the arguement then i will add in my own input on the topic. The original thread

Question: Should Wavedashing be kept in SSBB???

Lets start with the Positive aspects of the wavedash:
-It allows for swift movements
-You can connect smashes with it
-Can make up for a slow run with certain characters (falco, G'dorf, & others)
-Goes hand-in-hand with mind games (the classic: run forward, wavedash back when close to the opponent)

Lets continue with the Negative aspects of the wavedash:
-People who use the wavedash without considerable practice can end up screwing themselves over.
-Initiates infinate combos with fox (which can be a little on the cheap side).
(it's hard to think of more for me)


My Opinion: To MewMewKachooTwo, from what i've gathered, you feel that the wavedash is a glitch that wasn't meant to be in the game and therefore, should not be used. i feel that glitches are something that should be taken advantage of in a game (Correction; most glitches, not all). If the wavedash is in the game and it helps you, USE IT. If you feel like being stubborn, then don't use the Wavedash and don't critize it. Every person has a right to their own style of playing smash. The wavedash helps people that want it to help them.

I personally don't use the wavedash as often as i would like to, or in ways that i would want to. That doesn't mean that i want it out of the game. It's helped me in tough spots and i'm thankful that i have a glitch to use in tough spots.

That's all for me, now i open this thread for discussion and/or debate on rather or not the Wavedash should be kept in SSBB. Feel free to add positive or negative aspects of the wavedash. Have fun and keep it G-rated.

 

[Vulpine51]

First off, thank you JFox for taking your time to make this.

Second..well I guess this is where I'll put my opinion. I would rather keep the WD in smash than remove it. It may tip the scales a little bit but wavedashing is like the sprinkles in your icecream sundae, or even the happy ending after your massage. It adds a little somthing that is already great.

I personally dont wavedash very well, but it gives me somthing to work for. I wouldnt be heartbroken if they removed it, but who could refuse a few sprinkles on their icecream sundae?

 

[Vulpine51]

I think you might be too late. It is a good post but JFox already made a new one. Thanks for your efforts though.

 

[McFox]

Threads merged.

 

[Vulpine51]

Threads merged.

Yeah thanks a lot Mcfox. Now I look like a ******.

Disregard my double post please. It came from another thread.

I think this topic may have been discussed to death. Please. If anyone has any new points to make, share them here.

 

[SuPeRCuSsIoN]

i think that wavedashing will stay. but itll be a secret tactic that nintendo doesnt reveal. it's a part of the physics of the game and if they change this part of the physics, then im sure it will affect other things. it will stay, i think.

 

[Splorky Fish]

Wavedashing was great for Melee. It helped make the game more layered and balanced. That is lucky for the developers and us, because the game was really rushed into production and wasn't that balanced without it. I just hope that the next game is well-crafted enough offer deep, balanced gameplay without the exploitation of an error that turned out nicely just by luck. Melee was very well-designed, but I am of the opinion that you should always improve where you can. The elimination of the wavedash isn't the main thing I hope happens in Brawl. It would make me smile for about a second before I start working on whatever new techniques Brawl does include. It's a small, nit-picky point that I offer against wavedashing, but one that I hope gets considered.

 

[KoreanDJ111]

Now, think about it this way.

Is it safe to underestimate the people who made the game and assumed that they had their head buried in the sand this whole time? These past whatever years when SSBM came out came the breakout of glitches (wavedashing and L-cancelling). There has to be at least ONE person who saw what was going on and must recognize that it's a deep concept of the game. Wavedashing and L-cancelling was in Nintendo Power for crying out loud. The idea of wavedashing out of SSBB will remain as a wet dream of the ultimate n00b. That is all. Keep dreaming.

 

[Doctor X]

Wavedashing was great for Melee. It helped make the game more layered and balanced. That is lucky for the developers and us, because the game was really rushed into production and wasn't that balanced without it. I just hope that the next game is well-crafted enough offer deep, balanced gameplay without the exploitation of an error that turned out nicely just by luck. Melee was very well-designed, but I am of the opinion that you should always improve where you can. The elimination of the wavedash isn't the main thing I hope happens in Brawl. It would make me smile for about a second before I start working on whatever new techniques Brawl does include. It's a small, nit-picky point that I offer against wavedashing, but one that I hope gets considered.

I've really never heard the arguement that Melee was rushed, really. I see the existence of Coin Mode, trophies, secret messages, and all the other extra bells and whistles as evidence that they had quite enough time to eliminate a minor exploit if they really wanted to, and I think we can be sure they noticed it early on due to its simplicity.

The real arguement is whether or not they foresaw what it could potentially be used for. I honestly doubt that they did, but that doesn't make it any less viable, does it? If it helps make the game more interesting I don't see why they shouldn't rebuild it in the new game. The fact that they originally created it by accident shouldn't really have any bearing on that.

 

[nomis]

If a casual gamer doesn't like WDing, then he/she doesn't have to use it. The casual gamer will not participate in tournaments so it shouldn't matter much to him/her. If you're a casual Smasher, why complain about WD?

It WAS labeled as a glitch, but now it is labeled as a technique. Kinda like Devil May Cry and how the game was discovered by a glitch in Onimusha... so to say that Devil May Cry is not a game or that DMC is a glitch and should be removed is pretty absurd. WDing was discovered from a glitch in the physics (as with Onimusha and DMC), but they found that it adds more depth to gameplay. Depth is good in ANY fighting game, and that's how sequels overcome their predecessors; the developers do more additions than subtractions.

The infinite Fox shine is a glitch/exploit that was created because of the abilities of WDing. Saying that WDing is a glitch because of Fox's infinite is like saying throwing is a glitch because some characters can chain throw. I repeat, WDing is a technique, not a glitch.

The hardcore gamer adapts to new techniques and uses them to its full potential at the right times during gameplay. So if the casual gamer decides, "Hey, I think I want to take SSB seriously," that casual-turned-hardcore gamer will adapt to SSB and learn the advanced techniques. Most, if not all, SFIII:3s hardcore players know how to kara-throw, red parry, etc. - they might not like to use it but they're very useful.

Many players won't take the game as seriously, so they do not use the technique, but are angry that it helps those who are dedicated to beating them.

If I play against a pro Guilty Gear XX player, I don't expect to beat him. Not at all. I probably would only hit the guy with a jab. So what do I do if I want to beat him so badly? Practice, practice, practice as much/more than the pro did.

Why complain? Don't play against pros, stick with fellow casual gamers. If all you do is hang around pros, ask them for advice, practice with them, it's fun.

And Koreandj111, L-cancelling is a technique, not a glitch.

 

[Squatdog7]

I personally think that WD will be removed. I dont WD that much, but i do not think it is cheap when people do. The only reason I think it will be removed is that the makers of the game did not intend for it to be there in the first place. It has been stated that the makers did notice it when making the game, but i dont think they knew out widely it would be used throught the smash community. I do not think they even knew smash would be so seriously and competitivly played while they were making it. They were just trying to make a great party game everyone could have fun playing. I doubt while making brawl they really have the elite people who win tournys in mind as much as the average player who just wants to sit and play as his favorite nintendo character against his friends.

 

[Hyper-Link]

Well my thread got closed so I'll just restate what I said there, here

Alright since I've always agreed with the starter of this thread(Pro Removing WaveDash), it might be slightly biased, but meh. I'll still remain fair.

Pro Wave Dashing: Alright so, I'm sure the majority of the members are Pro Wave Dashing because let's face it, it's useful and helpful. It's also an advanced technique, probably the most advanced of all, meaning rookies and medium level players will have a hard time deciphering what to do and how to change the strategy to even have a chance of winning. Now the best argument I can add to this is L-Cancelling. I'm pretty sure L-Canceling wasn't exactly MEANT to be in Smash Bros. I'm pretty sure they'd want powerful characters to remain slow. It really isn't that fair if a character can be very powerful and still be quick. Now I'd be very angry if they removed L-cancelling, since I'm obviously a Link character(My name/avatar), and L-Canceling is very useful for his air moves. And if something I mastered that helped me prove that I'm better than the average player was removed, I'd be angry

Con-Wave Dashing: Now I've never really mastered wave dashing. Ya I've done it, but Link can't really wavedash, and even when I did it, I really didn't see much of an advantage, especially for the amount of button pressing and mastering required to do it succcessfully. And it really does look like a glitch... Gliding back forth across the ground with smoke flying around you does not seem very natural. Especially the fact that the characters that are ALREADY fast(I.E. Sheik, Falco, Fox, Falcon, etc) can wave dash the best. People like Link, Bowser, Donkey Kong, etc, who really need the so called ability of wave dashing completely suck at it. Now why should my opponent who already kicks my a$$ as Sheik be able to glide around even faster against me, while my Link keeps his general slow speed?. Also in SSB on 64, they really wasn't any wave dashing. And the gameplay worked fine. And adding the roll dodging, and air/ground dodging made the game fast and more exciting. That's why it is in the manual. It does not say anywhere in the manual about wave dashing and how to do it/tips on why you should.

Now all in all even though I'd rather have Wave Dashing removed from Brawl, seeing as how it'd make all those people that mastered it, have to rework their "mind games" and use the noormal techniques like other humans I still think it'd be bogus for all those that has helped their game, and make them feel superior. The suggestion I have is, keep the Wave Dashing in Brawl since the Physics will be slightly tweaked, and it might be easier/more useful for all gamers, and ALSO have some counter-acting technique for people that love gliding around quickly to freak out their opponents. Either some other unintentional "glitch" or some form of Crouch Cancelling that if mastered correctly can stop most wave dashers that like to attack while their doing it. If they used mostly for mind games or retreating, then the game would still be balanced/neutral and there would be no harm done. Wave Dashers still get their gklitch gliding mind games, and haterz like me can have a way to "PWNED!!!!!111!11!!!" them whenever they get too cocky/advantagous of it.

There, Hyper-Link has spoken

'Nuff Said

 

[Xenoflame]

Link player here, pro-WD. Distance is my game, and WD helps a LOT. If you think about it, it actually makes the game more realistic. If you're fighting someone, and they slash at you, and you want to make them fall short. What do you do?
a) Turn around and run a few steps, turn back around to fight
b) Jump high into the air, and backwards.
c) Take a quick step backwards, dodging the blow

C Obviously.

 

[Hyper-Link]

Ya but honestly, i'd prefer shielding and.or grabbing, or the jumping dodge option

 

[nomis]

Con-Wave Dashing: Now I've never really mastered wave dashing. Ya I've done it, but Link can't really wavedash, and even when I did it, I really didn't see much of an advantage, especially for the amount of button pressing and mastering required to do it succcessfully.

That's what seperates a decent Link player from a good one.

And it really does look like a glitch... Gliding back forth across the ground with smoke flying around you does not seem very natural.

Fighting a gigantic turtle, a princess-saving plumber, an electric mouse, a pink ball, the plumber's brother, two princesses, talking falcon & fox that can fly intergalactic space ships that shoot lasers, while jumping 10 feet high in the air, then adding a double-jump to that, being exploded, shot by a laser, sucked by a pink ball, eaten by a dinosaur and rebirthing to my previous self isn't very natural either.

Especially the fact that the characters that are ALREADY fast(I.E. Sheik, Falco, Fox, Falcon, etc) can wave dash the best. People like Link, Bowser, Donkey Kong, etc, who really need the so called ability of wave dashing completely suck at it.

Uhhh, that's not right.

Now why should my opponent who already kicks my a$$ as Sheik be able to glide around even faster against me, while my Link keeps his general slow speed?.

That's why they need to do character balancing.

Also in SSB on 64, they really wasn't any wave dashing. And the gameplay worked fine. And adding the roll dodging, and air/ground dodging made the game fast and more exciting. That's why it is in the manual. It does not say anywhere in the manual about wave dashing and how to do it/tips on why you should.

The gameplay worked fine in SSB64, but it would've been better with wavedashing. Many advanced techniques are never in instruction booklets, either.

 

[Hyper-Link]

"Fighting a gigantic turtle, a princess-saving plumber, an electric mouse, a pink ball, the plumber's brother, two princesses, talking falcon & fox that can fly intergalactic space ships that shoot lasers, while jumping 10 feet high in the air, then adding a double-jump to that, being exploded, shot by a laser, sucked by a pink ball, eaten by a dinosaur and rebirthing to my previous self isn't very natural either."

Ummm, that's completely irrelavent. Why do 90% of the Pro-Wave Dashing people bring that up.


They are VIDEO game characters, of course they seem weird. But that's their uniqueness, can fox shoot fireballs and use a Cape?
Can Link shoot plasma shots and morph into a ball?
can Peach use pyschic abilities?

Whatever makes them strange unique, is UNIQUE to them, Now if one character could wave dash like Link is the only character with a Shield, then that'd be different. But every character having a secret glitch move that let's them glide around quicker is not meant to be

 

[JFox]

Call me old fashioned, but I just feel like the people that work at a game the hardest should ultimately be the ones doing best in torney. I don't feel that people who aren't dedicated enough to press two buttons while holding a control stick at a diagonal angle really have the right to be beating the pros.

Take out every difficult thing in the game thats worth practicing at home(short hops, l cancels, wavedash, and any other advanced technique) and the tournament scene disappears.

I also don't feel that wave dashing is a glitch. Although the game creators may not have meant to make characters wavedash, but they did mean to make characters slide. They purposely made each character have a different amount of traction, and they did mean to have the character slide across the ground. They just never thought of air dodging being a way to force your character to slide so efficiently.

Let me present an example if I may. It is like Samus's bomb recovery. They meant for the bombs to pop you up, but they did not mean for them to be an efficient way of recovery.

When a game gets popular enough, people are going to find a way to exploit the game physics in a way that helps give them an advantage. Thats all wavedashing is- a technique that takes advantage of the sliding of one's character.

If you are against exploitation of the games minor flaws that were never intended to be the way they are, than your are really against meta game in general. With the exception of maybe L cancelling and short hopping, every advanced technique a character has is someone finding a flaw and exploiting it.

Samus's bomb recovery, Peach's wall bombing, Chain Throwing, Short Hop Lasers, Falco's Pillar combos, Ganon's infinite ledge grab, Ledge Hopping, Dash Dancing, etc. etc. etc. All of these are things that the game creators didn't see coming. (but are not glitches) Some of them such as Dash Dancing and Ledge Hopping were found out in the first game, and the creators found nothing wrong with it and allowed it to be in the second game. I say if you are against Wavedashing just because the game creators didn't intend it to be in the game, than you are really against all of these. Because wavedashing is no more a glitch than any of these really.

And if game creators did feel there was a problem with it, they would have probably changed it in the PAL version.

 

[nomis]

Ummm, that's completely irrelavent. Why do 90% of the Pro-Wave Dashing people bring that up.


They are VIDEO game characters, of course they seem weird. But that's their uniqueness, can fox shoot fireballs and use a Cape?
Can Link shoot plasma shots and morph into a ball?
can Peach use pyschic abilities?

Whatever makes them strange unique, is UNIQUE to them, Now if one character could wave dash like Link is the only character with a Shield, then that'd be different. But every character having a secret glitch move that let's them glide around quicker is not meant to be

I bring it up because the game is surreal, much like wavedashing.

Wavedashing is not a 'secret glitch move' that is not meant to be. Like I said in my previous post, it's a branded a TECHNIQUE.

 

[Sol]

I hope they keep wavedashing, l cancling and all that good stuff

 

[Hyper-Link]

Well even if they choose to unintentionally keep, they still need to make a counter "glitch" or technique or w/e u call it, that can make people just a deadly on offense, that way it an counteract whatever effect wave dashing gives you

 

[Paranoid_Android]

Correct me if I'm wrong...

...didn't the developer's know about this "glitch" before the game was finished? If this is true, can it really be considered a glitch? Developers have been allowing exploitation of the physics engines of games forever, and yet gamers still seem to think it's some giant accident and that they really messed up and somehow, out of pure luck, made their game better. Am I conspiracy theororist, or does the WD sound too good to just be an unfixed accidental glitch?

 

[Kabyk-Greenmyst]

Hyper-Link, awesome post.
And for the ignorant Fluffy, *just because we don't like WD'ing doesn't mean we can't do it.*

If anyone remembers from the other threads, I'm very zealous anti-WD. I've thought about it, and summed it into two main points:

1. Unnatural and/or Expoit
A) Granted that the game itself is not realistic, but they try and keep the fighting somewhat so. Thus, rolling. It is a very realistic move, not hard to perform, and is quite effective for dodging and the such. So, when I have my Link,Fox,Marth, [other 'non-magical' characters] sliding across the floor, I think of only being able to do that if this character has a) changed the laws of physics or b) waxed the floor right before he/she did so. And I don't think said character has done either of those two. It is also quite ugly to watch: crouch and slide, whereas rolling is much cooler to watch.

B) It IS an exploit[semi-glitch]--that became an "advanced technique." It only became that because it is "difficult" to pull off and rightly so, being that it is an exploit of the game's engine. Since it is an exploit and not an actual move, it is unbalanced. Which leads me to point 2.

2. "IMBA!1!" [Not whining, I just like the name, sums of the idea so well]
A) Here we have Fox, Shiek, and Marth. Lovely characters. FAST characters. They have 'normal' difficulty and power of their WaveDash. These help them own a lot more than they already do. Which would be good if they needed it. This helps their mind games, but these characters are good enough as is, ESPECIALLY when their run speed is good ANYWAY. They don't need it, but it helps them.

B) Here we have DK, Bowser, and Link. Lovely characters as well. SLOW characters. The difficulty is much higher and the power is much lower for their WaveDash's. The ratio is horrible and almost unusable. ALMOST. Of course they can do it, Link mcuh more so than Bowser/DK, but still to a minor degree. The point is that these are the characters THAT ACTUALLY NEED IT. If they are given The "Top Tier 3"'s, IC's, and Luigi's WaveDash, they would be a lot better than they are now. And that would not make them amazing like the characters in Point A, it would make them a lot closer to being as good as them. Of course this is just speculation, as they might be even BETTER than the top 3, but thats the idea. WD helps certain characters in ways they shouldn't be. Bowser doesn't have a good WD because that would be speed AND power. Unacceptable.

I see two things I would find acceptable: [These I'm not to crazy about myself, just suggestions. There might be something else, I'm just not that creative about these.]

1. Remove
Get rid of it. Leave Fox, Shiek, and Marth fast. But give them less damage. Or something to that sort, since I know Marth already does somewhat low damage, I think. Make DK/Bowser/etc slow like they are, but give them more weight, damage, and resistance[maybe?]. Not the small degree there is in Melee, a degree like Fox's Usmash will send DK half the distance it would send Falco on the same damage percentage. THAT kind of difference.

2) Balance
Make the WaveDash's all pretty much equal, maybe Marth type of WaveDash. The only different will be slight buff to DK/Bowser/etc and slight decrease to Fox/Shiek/Marth/etc. SLIGHT.

Other than those, I'm not sure. All I know is leaving it the way they are is unacceptable.

I hope that was intelligent enough and have fun flaming me Fluffy for calling you out, lol.

 

[commonyoshi]

So your saying that because it doesn't help low tier characters, you are against it? Oh wait! It does! Luigi, IC, Ness, DK, Mewtwo. Just accept that some characters aren't as good as others and play top tier. Not everyone has to be equal in a game.
Edit: Congrats to JFox on an amazing post. I was about to use the same argument with Halo and the sniper riffle shots reflecting off walls.

 

[JFox]

Why is leaving it the way they are unacceptable? Why is it that you are so very against wavedashing, when things like Chain Throwing are so much more exploitable, and yet they are not looked at as so? Wavedashing barely gives people an advantage whatsoever, while chain throwing can take a person from 0 to death. You act as if wavedashing is the worst thing to happen to the smash world. And yet if anything it balanced the tiers more that it hurt them. Imagine Luigi having to approach his enemy while running...

If wavedashing is so good why is it that the three best wavedashers in the game are not even that high on the tier list? Luigi is Mid tier, IC's are high tier, and Mewtwo is BOTTOM tier for christ sake. If wavedashing were so good, wouldn't these characters be on the top. You guys see wavedashing and are so impressed, when really people barely see it as an advantage at high level play.


And what is this crap about wavedashing "not being realistic"?1?! The entire games physics are screwed up. People are jumping in the middle of the air. and yet you complain about a character sliding?! Oh God he is sliding, that just shouldn't be allowed! But jumping in midair is ok because they could do that in the first one.

The wavedash is just like any other character imbalance. Are you going to complain because Samus's roll is slower than Foxes. "But fox is already too good" Fox and Sheik have a pretty mediocre wavedash, many lower tier characters have better ones than them, proving that wavedashing makes the game more balanced.

 

[Hyper-Link]

Thanx Kabyk-Greenmyst

Ya you made some great points. Especially the DK/Falco ratio on the Fox Usmash. Sometimes it seems Bowser is powerful for no reason, he has horrible range, he's very slow in EVERY way, can't really wavedash, etc...

Plus Fox can still Usmash him like anyone else. They should really update the weight system so having a big slow character actually has SOME kind of advantage over others.

And people that can combo very well(Shiek) have less damage or knockback on their moves

 

[KoreanDJ111]

And Koreandj111, L-cancelling is a technique, not a glitch.

Sry I'm a complete n00b. Wanna money match $20 against my Pichu?

 

[nomis]

1. Unnatural and/or Expoit
A) Granted that the game itself is not realistic, but they try and keep the fighting somewhat so. Thus, rolling. It is a very realistic move, not hard to perform, and is quite effective for dodging and the such. So, when I have my Link,Fox,Marth, [other 'non-magical' characters] sliding across the floor, I think of only being able to do that if this character has a) changed the laws of physics or b) waxed the floor right before he/she did so. And I don't think said character has done either of those two. It is also quite ugly to watch: crouch and slide, whereas rolling is much cooler to watch.

Explain 'somewhat so.' Rolling is a very realistic move, but being invincible for a fraction of that roll is not realistic. Air dodging is not realistic. A large amount of dust poofing from below your feet from landing/dashing is not realistic. Just think of WDing as a quick back/forward step. WDing is also fun to watch. Rolling, on the other hand, is cool in certain scenarios. If used scarcely, it's cool. If constantly used by an amateur, it's pretty embarrassing.

B) It IS an exploit[semi-glitch]--that became an "advanced technique." It only became that because it is "difficult" to pull off and rightly so, being that it is an exploit of the game's engine. Since it is an exploit and not an actual move, it is unbalanced. Which leads me to point 2.

2. "IMBA!1!" [Not whining, I just like the name, sums of the idea so well]
A) Here we have Fox, Shiek, and Marth. Lovely characters. FAST characters. They have 'normal' difficulty and power of their WaveDash. These help them own a lot more than they already do. Which would be good if they needed it. This helps their mind games, but these characters are good enough as is, ESPECIALLY when their run speed is good ANYWAY. They don't need it, but it helps them.

B) Here we have DK, Bowser, and Link. Lovely characters as well. SLOW characters. The difficulty is much higher and the power is much lower for their WaveDash's. The ratio is horrible and almost unusable. ALMOST. Of course they can do it, Link mcuh more so than Bowser/DK, but still to a minor degree. The point is that these are the characters THAT ACTUALLY NEED IT. If they are given The "Top Tier 3"'s, IC's, and Luigi's WaveDash, they would be a lot better than they are now. And that would not make them amazing like the characters in Point A, it would make them a lot closer to being as good as them. Of course this is just speculation, as they might be even BETTER than the top 3, but thats the idea. WD helps certain characters in ways they shouldn't be. Bowser doesn't have a good WD because that would be speed AND power. Unacceptable.

Can be fixed by character specific balancing.

I see two things I would find acceptable: [These I'm not to crazy about myself, just suggestions. There might be something else, I'm just not that creative about these.]

1. Remove
Get rid of it. Leave Fox, Shiek, and Marth fast. But give them less damage. Or something to that sort, since I know Marth already does somewhat low damage, I think. Make DK/Bowser/etc slow like they are, but give them more weight, damage, and resistance[maybe?]. Not the small degree there is in Melee, a degree like Fox's Usmash will send DK half the distance it would send Falco on the same damage percentage. THAT kind of difference.

Removing WDing for some characters seems more unfair than what, you claim, it already is. So I agree to do your suggestion of:

2) Balance
Make the WaveDash's all pretty much equal, maybe Marth type of WaveDash. The only different will be slight buff to DK/Bowser/etc and slight decrease to Fox/Shiek/Marth/etc. SLIGHT.

Other than those, I'm not sure. All I know is leaving it the way they are is unacceptable.

I hope that was intelligent enough and have fun flaming me Fluffy for calling you out, lol.

1) Don't remove WDing altogether. 2) Fix characters.

 

[commonyoshi]

Thanx Kabyk-Greenmyst

Ya you made some great points. Especially the DK/Falco ratio on the Fox Usmash. Sometimes it seems Bowser is powerful for no reason, he has horrible range, he's very slow in EVERY way, can't really wavedash, etc...

Plus Fox can still Usmash him like anyone else. They should really update the weight system so having a big slow character actually has SOME kind of advantage over others.

And people that can combo very well(Shiek) have less damage or knockback on their moves

Ok... Are you using that to ban WDing? It has nothing to do with it.

 

[nomis]

Sry I'm a complete n00b. Wanna money match $20 against my Pichu?

I would love to, but I live in CA.

 

[the Marronator]

I personally have never seen anything bad about wavedashing. When I play n00bs at my school, they don't really think it is cheap. The thing about wavedashing is it isn't really a gamebreaking move, like SHL or peach's downsmash. It is simply something that adds depth and mindgames.

Now I could care less about the physics in the game. I don't really see the point in people bringing up that argument because it is a game. Things aren't supost to be realistic.

Also for thoes who argue that wavedashing is a glitch and it wasn't supost to be in the game, (incase you didn't already know this) wavedashing was found by the creators when testing for glitches, but they left it in. Now, does that mean something to you? I think that wavedashing will be in brawl just for this fact.

Plus, if you are so against wavedashing, then why don't you try learning it and see if your opinion changes.

 

[MetalGearLink]

nerf it down!!!!, in a way you can still use it but only once at a time so it dosn't remplace runing

 

[Hyper-Link]

Did you read or hear anyTHING about me banning WDish?

Ummm.......no

 

[JFox]

Hyper-Link, we could go on forever about character imbalances. There will always be character imbalance. Please stay on the topic.

I feel that the characters having different wavedash length just adds character diversity, similar to rolling speed and length.

The best characters actually don't even have the best wavedashes, making them at a disadvantage. And yet they are good for other reasons, but no one seems to be bothered by them. Foxes shine comes out in one frame, and can be cancelled by frame three. He has the ability to spike a person at no matter what percentage. This is why he is so good.

Sheik has the ability to chainthrow half the cast, and combo them just as easily. Marth has incredible range, a great spike, and probably the best overall smash attack. (yes even better than the peach) He also can chainthrow characters from 0-death. The fact that he can wavedash is almost insignificant. Falco can SHL while approaching, crippling the opponent while he moves in. He can also shine in 1 frame and has the most unbalanced spike in the game. The fact that these characters can wavedash is pretty insignificant.

The three best- Still lingering around the middle level. And the fact that they wavedash has not been enough to balance the playing field.

This proves that the wavedash really isn't the "be all end all" of smash techiques, and really is quite insignificant to the tier list with the exception of a few characters who really needed an advantage in the first place.


In my mind, I really have nothing left to say. If you aren't so closed minded and realize the pros of wavedashing, you may understand why anyone who can do it well feels it should stay. The majority of you just don't like getting beaten by people who wavedash because they are simply better than you. The wavedash isn't what makes them better, it is the dedication to mastering the game. The wavedash is just an excuse you can hide behind.