WaveDashing In SSBB

[Skylink]

I don't know what you all are thinking. Just because Wavedashing is an accident doesn't mean it is a bad thing. Are genetinc mutations bad things? Lots or most good things come about by accident, and we don't really care if the developers want thh smash cometitive comunity to look like big, long Item-infested rollfests. The only reason that there IS a competitive comminity is because the game is professionally playable. Sure, the game will still have most or all of it's appeal, but there will be a lot of tourtoment/competitive potential lost, so it will be played similar to the 64 game. It had competitive ptential, but it just got so much better with the melee version.

And also, some of you are acting like only pros can WD. Like you need to be a respected, undefeated, even feared master of the world just to WD. this is not true at all; I can WD, and I've never gotten past the first round in any tourtoment. If you cant wavedash then just understand that it is not hard to learn, wich is why virtually everybody on my planet that I see at tourneys can WD around the world faster than I can say "oh crAp"

 

[Inferno_blaze]

Most people don't consider it as a bad thing, it's just it can be likened to a glitch or hack that can be exploited unfairly in so many other games that some are just repulsed by the idea of it.

I agree with the guy who was talking about sequels, they aren't just updated vers of the same game otherwise we get nowhere (By this I'm pointing a big finger at EA, especially their sports titles)

Also Wavedashing was NOT in smash64, where the hell did that come from?

 

[Skylink]

Most people don't consider it as a bad thing, it's just it can be likened to a glitch or hack that can be exploited unfairly in so many other games that some are just repulsed by the idea of it.

So how is that different as viewing it as a bad thing?

I agree with the guy who was talking about sequels, they aren't just updated vers of the same game otherwise we get nowhere (By this I'm pointing a big finger at EA, especially their sports titles)

Also Wavedashing was NOT in smash64, where the hell did that come from?

It came from two things: land sliding and Air dodging. I dunno about sliding, but air dodging was not in Smash 64. It's simple as that.

 

[Inferno_blaze]

I was merely explaining why some were against it, notice the SOME. Most people however either don't care or like WD.

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

about nintendo combining "pro" and "casual" players.. casual players are casual because their

1. dont have enough intrest or dedication to be "pro"
2. dont like higher levels of competative play
3. dont like tournaments/being rated etc., so they dont participate.


secondly, more on topic.



its a video game, if every one can do it, its not "cheap". it dosent freeze the game, instantly kill you, or give you an infinite. (well >.> cept fox lol, but thats a "problem" with shine, not wding)


what is so complicated about the physics of the game making something work? what about DIing? you can survive some high knockback sometimes by slamming your self into the ground and teching, or at least it takes some of the brunt of it. should DIing not be in the next smash?



its a movement tactic, nothing more. its perfectly fine, like every other movement tactic. changing it, sure go for it, but "its bad and should be gone!!" = ********. why dont we all play the same character? and only have 2 moves?

how do the anti-wd people feel about edge hoging?

 

[DX_RULEZ]

1st post.

i think that all the ppl who talks trash about wavedashing, cant even wavedash themselves.

**EDIT**
dammit. 2nd post =(

I agree with that statement

 

[Gojithefox]

Exactly. If you are against WDing because the developers didn't intend for it to be used that way, then you are against every single other "mistake" developers have made. The halo sniper riffle bouncing off walls, dunspare's flinch haxing. Everything. You fail.

Um, Dunsparce's Flinch hax was intentional. They wouldn't have given him Serene Grace, otherwise. It's the only thing that makes Dunsparce useable.

Anyways, my friend is avidly against Wavedashing, and I'm only meh. My hands shake when playing this game (it's uncontrollable) so it makes Wavedashing more or less an impossibility when in an intense battle. Add on the fact that I only really play the game when I have other people to play with (see: rarely) means that I don't get the practice that is necessary to become a pro at the game. So while I can see why it'd be difficult for me to fight someone who's mastered the skill, and added to the fact that it was someone unintentional, I don't see what harm would come of keeping it in.

However, I would personally lean towards its removal so that someone like myself has a greater chance of success.

Are genetinc mutations bad things?

Just so you know, most genetic mutations end with death. ^_^

 

[ForteX]

one of my friends thinks Wavedashing is as useless as a third mouse button, and believes that as long as he can sidestep dodge (which he cant) then he has no need for it. I can wavedash, almost constantly on a good day until my fingers get tired, but I really cant find a good use for it other than ticking off my friend. I could really care less if they keep it or take it out, its the developer's decision, not mine.

Wavedashing was just a glitch they left in, thinking no one would ever find it. And yes, it was found by accident, just like chocolate chip cookies, and Phosphorus, which are both very helpful things. So that makes decent grounds to say Wavedashing is good? It kinda puts down the less experienced players. I know some who think that they need to Wavedash, and they get over frustrated trying to do it and then nearly give up on the game itself. thats no way to enjoy a game.

Ok, so it adds this 'edge' and so called competitive level of gameplay to it, but Halo is plenty competitive and I dont think people use glitches, they use their skill. I have friends that only get to play SSBM when they're over at my house because they dont have a gamecube. They're good at it, but not as good as me because I get to play it all the time. it doesnt take Wavedashing to seperate me from them. Experience comes from many different places, not just one. I have no real problem with Wavedashing, but I think that many 'serious players' rely to heavily on it. with or without it, there is always room for improvement.

 

[Cisne]

Wd out or not..... i really dont care about it coz i dont use it so much , is like the players that rely so much on it are scared o,o

And that post about ppl that cant even wd ? lol, wd is really easy to do, i cant imagine an usual player that cant do it

If wd is still in brawl ppl will use it , if it is gone pros will find another way to accelerate their moves X_x, i dont know why is there so much post about it O_o , i mean , u all like ssb ull sure play brawl , with /without wd.

 

[VgtPrncfllSyns]

Wavedashing is not a glitch, it is a simple "abuse" of the psyhics system in the game.

I quoted abuse because I don't want people taking it the wrong way. If people did the freeze glitch (had it not been banned) in tournaments, that would be bad abuse. Wavedashing is more like... ah, probably a bad word choice, but it's not a glitch, and it's not a terrible abuse of the games design.

 

[DYC]

Ok, so it adds this 'edge' and so called competitive level of gameplay to it, but Halo is plenty competitive and I dont think people use glitches, they use their skill. I have friends that only get to play SSBM when they're over at my house because they dont have a gamecube. They're good at it, but not as good as me because I get to play it all the time. it doesnt take Wavedashing to seperate me from them. Experience comes from many different places, not just one. I have no real problem with Wavedashing, but I think that many 'serious players' rely to heavily on it. with or without it, there is always room for improvement.

Competitive Halo is BUILT on glitches. Arguments work better if you know what you are talking about.
http://www.mlgpro.com/news/Glitching_To_Stay_On_Top/1.html

Time to find a new argument.

 

[Arj]

If the only way to avoid a move was to dodge roll which is extremely predictable or run back which takes long for low traction characters, then everyone would be playing the better traction characters with longer reach.

 

[Meyeselph]

What about jumping? Jumping is my favorite way to avoid attacks and everything about pro play seems to discourage outright jumping....love the jump button people...love it GOOOD

 

[Skylink]

^The problem with jumping is that if there is an attack coming your way, there is less you can do about it. You cant fly off in a quick dash, you cant SHFFL a sex kick, you can't shield, you can't roll/Wavedash, all you can do is double jump (If you have it left,) Fast fall (wich doesn't always work,) Dodge, (wich makes you fall slowly and leaves you open during falling and landlag) You also will have slower acces to attacks, because most attacks have some wind up and wind down lag. When you SHFFL, you get the attack out quickly and are ready to do it again in a split second.


Off topic, I played Halo 2 for the first time in awhile at my friends house yesterday. It was fun as hell. I lost every time tho...

Just so you know, most genetic mutations end with death. ^_^

There are good mutations, you know. And unlike mutations, with Glitches at least half of them are good.

 

[Jiikae]

Wavedashing is not what made us buy melee.

 

[Rosseh!]

Thinking about it they could remove it because Brawl will be more aerial based but then if they were to keep it in it would allow you to jump faster and get back into the air, keeping the action going instead of breaking it up every time you land.

 

[Meyeselph]

^The problem with jumping is that if there is an attack coming your way, there is less you can do about it. You cant fly off in a quick dash, you cant SHFFL a sex kick, you can't shield, you can't roll/Wavedash, all you can do is double jump (If you have it left,) Fast fall (wich doesn't always work,) Dodge, (wich makes you fall slowly and leaves you open during falling and landlag) You also will have slower acces to attacks, because most attacks have some wind up and wind down lag. When you SHFFL, you get the attack out quickly and are ready to do it again in a split second.

which is exactly what I have a problem with. Jump is being removed from pro play basically becaus shffl and other such tactics are low risk options that eliminate the need for the risk of jumping. In my opinion the risk of jumping is part of the game balance to keep air attacks from dominating. Obviously there is nothing to keep SHFFL from dominating since it's entire use is based off of eliminating the risks of doing air attacks. Risks that define what air attacks are and define how this game is different from any other button combo based fighter.

 

[Inferno_blaze]

*crying because on the last page someone said "i could care less", it's I COULDN'T care less!!*

People can't talk about halo because well that is a glitch game but if you want an option take cs, or css, these are pretty much considered some of the most skillful fps' you can play and glitching has nothing to do with it (one reason being that thankfully it's made by one of the bet companies in the world, valve).

People who whine because they think it sucks or just because they don't like it really need a point to back them up

People who stupidly say those who don't like WD obviuosly can't are also idiots.

People who say it's a movement technique, anyone can use it have to realise that speedhacking in games like css is a movement technique that anyone can find on the internet and use but is unfair and not allowed (ok maybe that was a bit of an extreme point but you get what I mean)

I really don't care anymore whether it's in or not, it doesn't seem like that much of a big deal, also what the hell kind of arguement is you don't complain about edgehogging? Edgehogging was intentional and is perfectly fair for usage, they even have an award for it.

 

[dizzy]

which is exactly what I have a problem with. Jump is being removed from pro play basically becaus shffl and other such tactics are low risk options that eliminate the need for the risk of jumping. In my opinion the risk of jumping is part of the game balance to keep air attacks from dominating. Obviously there is nothing to keep SHFFL from dominating since it's entire use is based off of eliminating the risks of doing air attacks. Risks that define what air attacks are and define how this game is different from any other button combo based fighter.

Everywhere you go, it seems like all you want to do is strip the game down until there's nothing left besides what's in the instruction manual. Yes, shffling has a lower risk factor than full jumping, but it's not like shffling is invincible, either. There are any number of ways to deal with it. If the opponent uses a shffl aerial, you can dash back and pivot into a smash, walk forward to block the aerial slightly early to screw up his spacing and capitalize on the lag, outspace him with your own attack, or even go head to head with your own shffl aerial. Shffling doesn't remove the element of strategy from the game; strategies just have to become more refined because there are smaller windows of vulnerability. There are even MORE options available when advanced tactics are put into play, because they allow the player to be more exact with things like spacing, timing, etc.

As far as other fighting games are concerned, they have all sorts of techniques to reduce the risk of aerial attacks. GGXX, for example, has the instant air dash, which allows a character to boost forward into the air close to the ground to use an aerial attack. There's also a maneuver called the Faultless Defense Cancel which combines an attack with the air shield to cancel a jump's momentum, making it possible to "short hop." Tiger Kneeing is a technique that allows the player to use aerial special attacks as soon as you leave the ground. The list goes on and on. SSBM, too, has its own unconventional ways to use aerial attacks, like shffling. But the existence of things like shffling is hardly an indication that SSBM is not unique compared to other fighters, it just means that SSBM employs risk-reducing tactics to refine gameplay, as every good fighting game should.

 

[Skylink]

Everywhere you go, it seems like all you want to do is strip the game down until there's nothing left besides what's in the instruction manual. Yes, shffling has a lower risk factor than full jumping, but it's not like shffling is invincible, either. There are any number of ways to deal with it. If the opponent uses a shffl aerial, you can dash back and pivot into a smash, walk forward to block the aerial slightly early to screw up his spacing and capitalize on the lag, outspace him with your own attack, or even go head to head with your own shffl aerial. Shffling doesn't remove the element of strategy from the game; strategies just have to become more refined because there are smaller windows of vulnerability. There are even MORE options available when advanced tactics are put into play, because they allow the player to be more exact with things like spacing, timing, etc.

I agree with everything this guy said. The game should NOT be stripped down to only what is in the instruction manual, and physically impossible feats should be allowed to be done. It's a GAME. Some realism is good, but too much of it ruins the point of it being seperate from reality.

 

[Meyeselph]

You think what you want. I have my own opinion and I don't want smash brothers to be a good fighting game. I want it to be smash brothers. As it is being played on the pro level. It is not even in the same genre as the game I play. That makes me think that when the fundimental basis of the game changes drastically from how it was oringinally played when you change skill levels. It doesn't even seem like the same game anymore. It becomes all about combos and short hops and speed speed speed. It bores the piss out of me and I don't want to have to play against those kind of people if this game goes online and have them uniformly beat me because I don't want to play the game in a boring and asinine way. You can keep the tactics if you want. I just want the game creator to make it to where they don't dominate so much that I get punished for not using them. The tactics are fun for you people who like that kind of thing. Just realise this game isn't being made ONLY for you.

 

[Doctor X]

You think what you want. I have my own opinion and I don't want smash brothers to be a good fighting game. [/b]I want it to be smash brothers. As it is being played on the pro level. It is not even in the same genre as the game I play. That makes me think that when the fundimental basis of the game changes drastically from how it was oringinally played when you change skill levels. It doesn't even seem like the same game anymore. It becomes all about combos and short hops and speed speed speed. It bores the piss out of me and I don't want to have to play against those kind of people if this game goes online and have them uniformly beat me because I don't want to play the game in a boring and asinine way. You can keep the tactics if you want. I just want the game creator to make it to where they don't dominate so much that I get punished for not using them. The tactics are fun for you people who like that kind of thing. Just realise this game isn't being made ONLY for you.

No offense, I'm just pointing out a bit of irony. This whole post is based on your own distaste for the so-called "advanced tactics," yet you point out that the game isn't being made solely for us. Since when was it being made only for you?

SSBM is, as you should know, one of the most inclusive games ever made. It can be played and enjoyed on just about any skill level. It accomodates for competative players without alienating beginners and casuals. There is no reason why Brawl should be any different, and online will not change this.

I'll cite Halo 2 as an example. Just because there are some professional-level players on Xbox Live doesn't mean there aren't any casual players. Most people on XBL suck, to be quite honest. Even I don't get universally dominated, and I have absolutely no tournament experience to speak of. I don't see what you're so worried about, really.

 

[Meyeselph]

Firstly I said that I wanted these tactics balanced. They can still be used just tone them down so that others can have a fair shot. And I play often in halo 2. I can't get past level 28 because of cheating, weapon control and BXR/doubleshot style glitches. and it makes the game unenjoyable on many levels for me because i'm being beaten completely for wanting to use tactics I respect and enjoy instead of what gives me some obscure upper hand. That's what I'm worried about. Being beaten because I don't have the choice to play how I want and still be able to do what I want to do well enough to beat others with it. In smash brothers I am an air combatant. I jump like someone strapped rockets to my boots. Pro players don't jump and punish those who do. Thus if I face one of them i'm toast because the game is unbalanced twoard their style of play. That's what i'm worried about. You may not be worried about it but why would you be worried about it when it's in YOUR favor...cripes people have some sympathy not everyone likes playing the way you do.

 

[Inferno_blaze]

he (or she?) has a fair point

 

[Meyeselph]

Thanks for the support. You don't get much of it trying to convince people to give up their advantages in a game. *frown*

 

[dizzy]

Advanced tactics reward the players who are willing to practice and improve their game. What kind of a game allows players of all skill levels to perform as well as the next? An incredibly shallow one, that's what. Go play Mario Party if that's what you're looking for.

There's nothing wrong, of course, with choosing not to play competitively. SSB is designed to be accessible to all types of players, with its 4-way FFAs, diverse single player modes, and chaotic team battles, as well as competitive 1v1. It can be fun to just screw around. But if you're not willing to put in the time it takes, you can't whine when good players beat you into the ground, and you certainly can't try to impose your own limitations on them!

Besides, if you're worried about online being dominated by players who use advanced tactics, I can assure you that serious players will only make up a very small portion of the online population. For every Ken that's logged in, there will be loads of players online that just picked up the game, and thousands more scattered at all skill levels in between. You just have to find players of your own skill level, of which there WILL be many, and then you can play however you want. We won't stop you. But it has to work both ways. As soon as you try to change the way WE play, saying that we're too anal about advanced techniques and speed, we won't hesitate to mop the floor with you. K?

Sounds good to me.

 

[Meyeselph]

I'm not angry that it requires skill and practice to become better at the game i'm angry that it requires skill and practice with THOSE TACTICS to become better at the game. I could practice jumping skill and attack placement all I want (and I do.) and never beat a practiced shffler and that pisses me off. Stop trying to make me look bad and either think about my argument and respond intelligently (not in a derogiory fashion like repeating old posts) or shove off and leave me in peace.

 

[Doctor X]

Firstly I said that I wanted these tactics balanced. They can still be used just tone them down so that others can have a fair shot.

This is the problem, really. What you're asking is for the game not to reward players who go the extra mile to integrate new techniques into their playstyles. You've arbitrarily drawn a line as to where this "advantage" should stop. It's okay if players get advantages from edgehogging, shield-grabbing, and spikes, but it's not okay if players get advantages from l-cancels, short-hops, and wavedashing? Why draw the line there? Can you tell me a good reason?

Objectively, the tactics you "respect and enjoy" are no different from those that grant an "obscure upper hand." You've drawn a line between them for whatever reason, thinking that one side should be essentially nullified while the other is left alone. Once again, it comes down to you expecting the game to conform to your playstyle alone. I don't see how that's any more valid than the stance of the pros.

 

[Meyeselph]

I'll tell you how it's more valid. I want your guys playing style to be on level with mine for a good fair fight. YOU want everything to remain the same so that MY playstyle is left in the dust. I'm not being a hypocrit i'm the only one in this argument who ISN'T being one.

 

[Doctor X]

I'll tell you how it's more valid. I want your guys playing style to be on level with mine for a good fair fight. YOU want everything to remain the same so that MY playstyle is left in the dust.

Your playstyle should be left in the dust. For a game to be deep, there should not be a point where players can say, "Alright, I think I know everything I need to know," and still compete against those who seek to move beyond. What you're asking for is a game that rewards laziness as much as it rewards practice.

And again, it is an arbitrarily drawn line. I could just as easily say that I think DI is obscure and edgeguarding is cheap. I could try to justify a playstyle without smash attacks or grabs. I could focus my entire game on running off the edge and Self-Destructing. When people beat me, should I have any room to complain that their playstyle leaves mine in the dust? Of course not.

 

[element_of_fire]

Meyeselph, you play the game how you want, we will play it how we want... don't try to tell us our way is wrong because nobody here said you NEED tuse wavedashing and shffl'ing.... if you think these things are wrong, go back to playing in your basement and stay away from smashboards...

 

[Glide]

I'm not angry that it requires skill and practice to become better at the game i'm angry that it requires skill and practice with THOSE TACTICS to become better at the game. I could practice jumping skill and attack placement all I want (and I do.) and never beat a practiced shffler and that pisses me off. Stop trying to make me look bad and either think about my argument and respond intelligently (not in a derogiory fashion like repeating old posts) or shove off and leave me in peace.

So what's your point? That you don't wanna practice something that'll net you more wins? You want a casual player to be just as good as someone who practices day in and day out and explores all the options of the game?

Wow. That sucks.

Oh, and just FYI:
Most people are being derogatory because they strongly disagree with your statement. The reason some of it sounds insulting is because a lot of it is BLATANTLY obvious. Your arguments simply hold no water. Yes, you can practice placement and jumping all you want. You'll get better. But unfortunately, there are people practicing other things and getting even better than that. You've made your choice to practice an inferior strategy and have been blown out of the water. It's like doing research on Archery, and crafting the world's finest arrow, just to be beaten out when the other guy puts you down with a well placed shot from a sniper rifle with a scope.

You're clinging to ancient, and archaic form of combat. To progress, you simply have to put down your sword and learn to drive a tank.

 

[Meyeselph]

That post was a spectacular failure of reason...I salute you and sign off of this thread forever.

 

[dizzy]

I beg to differ. Several of the posts before your own have some very good points that you've completely failed (or rather, refused) to address in any of your arguments. If you're going to call us stupid, you could at least tell us why.

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

I think (hope?) he was finally seeing the light, acknowledging that his own post "was a spectacular failure of reason", and leaving as a more humble being. I could be wrong though.

 

[y2kbakura]

That post was a spectacular failure of reason...I salute you and sign off of this thread forever.

OMG what a scrub, i hope nintendo does't decide to listen
to a person like this an actually decide to dumb down the game

if they want something to be done fine, maeby they should tone down some of the
characters, but not take out any of the pro techniques, l-canceling,shuffles, or WD
it will just make this game not respected in the pro-gaming community, and trust me we need all the good rep we can get

 

[Gonzales]

Most people are being derogatory because they strongly disagree with your statement. The reason some of it sounds insulting is because a lot of it is BLATANTLY obvious. Your arguments simply hold no water. Yes, you can practice placement and jumping all you want. You'll get better. But unfortunately, there are people practicing other things and getting even better than that. You've made your choice to practice an inferior strategy and have been blown out of the water. It's like doing research on Archery, and crafting the world's finest arrow, just to be beaten out when the other guy puts you down with a well placed shot from a sniper rifle with a scope.

You're clinging to ancient, and archaic form of combat. To progress, you simply have to put down your sword and learn to drive a tank.

Quoted for being an awesome post. Glide makes a very good point. Combat in Smash has evolved, just like in the real world.

 

[Fastest]

I could practice jumping skill and attack placement all I want (and I do.) and never beat a practiced shffler and that pisses me off.

You must learn to deal with parlor tricks (shffling) before you can see the bigger picture.

 

[Inferno_blaze]

The main thing I'm worried about is that a lot of you want it to be the same game, and you seem to base your arguements on the fact that if WD was removed then the level of skill involved would just dissapear which is ridiculous (sorry if you've moved off WD and are on about something else now).

 

[dntmkmelph]

That guy actually has a decent agrument. He is saying that some of the "adv tactics" make the game playable within a very narrow range of strategy.