WaveDashing In SSBB

[Brightside6382]

The main thing I'm worried about is that a lot of you want it to be the same game, and you seem to base your arguement on the fact that if WD was removed then the leevel of skill isnvolved would just dissapear which is reidiculous (sorry if you've moved off WD and are on about something else now)

This is really one of the few smart posts ive seen in this discussion. (Lets ignore the grammer and spelling but its still good ^^) WD'ing in no way is going to make Brawl any better or worse I dont understand why all of you can't understand this. It seems to many people want all the advance techniques to be exactly the same so when we start playing we already know all the advance stuff there is to know. Wow, and you guys are calling the anti-WD people scrubs cause they can't master advance techs? All you fanatical WD supporters are putting up the same argument. "I dont want them to change the advance stuff cause I dont wanna spend anymore time learning new advance techniques cause I already spent so much learning the current." Now look at what ur saying to the super anti-WD people. "You just dont like WD because you can't do it and we should be rewarded for spending so much time learning new techs" Wow nice arguments guys! Im guessing alot of you really thought that through. Change in a series is certainly not a bad thing. I can just hope all you fanatical WD people can learn to just accept the fact that it might be taken out or it might be left in but this in no way affects how good Brawl might be.

 

[Inferno_blaze]

Thanks. Glad someone noticed me :D. Sorry about the grammer, I'm usually very good at it but I wa styping really fast because my friend was bugging me to play a game with him, I edited my post so it's better now.

 

[dizzy]

The main thing I'm worried about is that a lot of you want it to be the same game, and you seem to base your arguements on the fact that if WD was removed then the level of skill involved would just dissapear which is ridiculous (sorry if you've moved off WD and are on about something else now).

We're not against change as long as the game retains its depth. I mean, if wavedashing is removed from Brawl, that's perfectly fine - so long as there are other new maneuvers and techniques to make up for it. I and every other competitive player will be incredibly disappointed if Brawl's competitive potential actually takes a step back from Melee's. What Meyeselph is proposing is to tone down all the advanced tactics to the point where there's no reason to use them over the tactics that you can find in the instruction booklet. The kind of game Meyeselph describes is one that allows players who restrict themselves to certain tactics to perform as well as players who are willing to explore every aspect of the game. He claims that he wants to be competitive, but his argument is basically opposes everything that defines competitive gaming.

 

[dntmkmelph]

We're not against change as long as the game retains its depth. I mean, if wavedashing is removed from Brawl, that's perfectly fine - so long as there are other new maneuvers and techniques to make up for it. I and every other competitive player will be incredibly disappointed if Brawl's competitive potential actually takes a step back from Melee's. What Meyeselph is proposing is to tone down all the advanced tactics to the point where there's no reason to use them over the tactics that you can find in the instruction booklet. The kind of game Meyeselph describes is one that allows players who restrict themselves to certain tactics to perform as well as players who are willing to explore every aspect of the game. He claims that he wants to be competitive, but his argument is basically opposes everything that defines competitive gaming.

I think you are misunderstanding his agrument. He is saying that some adv. tech become so over powered that practical use of any other techs become impossible in competition. Thus resulting in single dimensional gaming, where albeit highly competitive leads to repetive and/or boring gameplay. I don't know if you guys are really familiar with the more traditional fighters, but think of what roll cancelling did to CvS2, i mean why would you ever want use any other strategy than that if you really want to win. Although it is a high level tactic that requires tons of practice it kind of takes away from the creativity of the game leading to one dimensional repetitive fighting.

 

[dizzy]

I think you are misunderstanding his agrument. He is saying that some adv. tech become so over powered that practical use of any other techs become impossible in competition. Thus resulting in single dimensional gaming, where albeit highly competitive leads to repetive and/or boring gameplay. I don't know if you guys are really familiar with the more traditional fighters, but think of what roll cancelling did to CvS2, i mean why would you ever want use any other strategy than that if you really want to win. Although it is a high level tactic that requires tons of practice it kind of takes away from the creativity of the game leading to one dimensional repetitive fighting.

But advanced tactics hardly make everything else useless. Granted, they render certain moves obsolete, and things like wavedashing and l-cancelling end up favoring some moves over others, but that's a matter of accidental imbalance more than anything else. It is unavoidable in any competitive game unless balancing fixes are applied on a regular basis. I don't claim that SSBM is perfect. I'll be the first to agree that there are a lot of things wrong with the game, but I don't limit myself based on how I think the game SHOULD be played. I explore all of my options anyway.

And contrary to what Meyeselph was saying, wavedashing does not render regular dashing useless, shffling is not always better than full jumping, etc. You can't survive without dashing or full jumping. However, it is only natural that combining conventional tactics with advanced tactics will make you a more effective player. That's exactly what good players do - players like Masashi, Ken, and Bombsoldier constantly explore all of their options, both basic and advanced, whereas Meyeselph refuses to expand his horizons and restricts himself to whatever's listed in the instruction manual. He then complains about how the game is poorly designed, and how advanced tactics should be toned down so he can stand a chance. But realistically, even if things like l-cancelling and wavedashing are toned down in Brawl, it is inevitable that other unconventional tactics will rise and become the standard. If he ever wants to be competitive, he, too, must be willing to explore all of his options. Whining about how jumping isn't as effective as it should be isn't going to get him anywhere in any game.

 

[Chipman]

I can't perform these techniques, but I think they're fair, unlike, say Snaking in Mario Kart it is difficult to master and offers reasonable results, Snaking however is easy to perform and gives absurd advantages.

 

[SuperDoodleMan]

If Meyeselph was a high-jumper...

From Wikipedia:

The Fosbury Flop was the most important breakthrough in high jump. Before Fosbury, most elite jumpers dove over head first, or had their own specialized techniques. At this point in history, almost all jumpers use the Fosbury Flop. **** Fosbury revolutionized high jump as anyone knows it and made one of the largest impact in this sport ever.

I'm not angry that it requires skill and practice to become better at the sport, I'm angry that it requires skill and practice with THAT TACTIC to become better at the sport. I could practice jumping skill all I want (and I do) and never beat a practiced Flopper and that pisses me off. Stop trying to make me look bad and either think about my argument and respond intelligently (not in a derogitory fashion like) or shove off and leave me in peace.

 

[Big_Bag]

I hope wave dashing doesnt become harder to do

 

[Inferno_blaze]

easy way to keep both sides happy = put the tactics in the instruction booklet :D (I'm joking OK)

 

[Majora731]

I think wavedashing should be in SSBB. It shows skill and dedication. It helps me alot as it helps many others.

 

[Inferno_blaze]

Now that'a nice simple stating of your view without bashing someone's ideas, well done (though i'm not sure about the dedication bit, I taught someone to WD in 5 minutes)

 

[DaBearX]

p2hf = play to have fun
p2w = play to win

People who p2hf generally do what they want to do, this often includes the use of slow or hilarious moves, (ganon's uptilt and DKs cargo downthrow are among my personal favorites) and the use of a restricted number of techniques, tactics or strategies (consider play without chainthrowing, edgeguarding/hogging, etc).

Those who p2w do what they have to do to win, this means that they are willing to use any technique, tactic or strategy to win. It seems apparent that those who p2w have a distinct advantage over those that p2hf because they are open to all options of p2hf and more.

A problem seems to develop people who p2hf dont like to lose (all the time). As I have observed there is a desire among p2hfs to be able to "compete" with all other players without resorting to the use of moves that do not fall into the category of moves they want to do (these moves are often characterized as cheap/effective by p2hfs/p2ws).

I think it is somewhat unreasonable for p2hfs to expect to be able to compete with p2ws on the same level. I liken this to a desire to compete in a game of rock-paper-scissors without the use of "rock".* Because of the, what I've determined to be, infeasible expectation to compete with p2ws, I suggest that p2hfs that are tired of losing limit their opponents to p2hfs with similar ideologies on "how to have fun while playing" (while I do not intend to disrespect any p2hfs I can not help but expand my previous analogy of RPS to this situation, i.e. players who only want to play with paper and scissors should only play against those who play with paper and scissors, that would be fun huh?).

An alternative presented earlier in the thread, if I understand it correctly, suggest that in SSBB the "advanced" techniques be more balanced against the "intermediate/introductory" techniques. While I do not necessarily consider this a bad thing I do not think that this will necessarily solve the problem. As long as there are techniques that you are unwilling to learn/use (which is likely if you are a p2hf player) there will likely be techniques that are more "effective" that p2w players will use to beat you.

The only true solution to have your p2hf strategy becomes (atleast similar to) the most effective strategy in SSBB. I think it would be selfish to have any one persons style of play limit the style of play in SSBB. Furthermore it is my understanding that you can p2hf in any game (if you choose your company correctly--refer to the RPS analogy), but only certain games have characteristics that are conducive to highly competitive play or p2w mentallities. Why limit the way others can play if you can still play the way you want. You may think that p2ws limit the way p2hfs can play if they want to win, but I feel this is only if they want to play against p2ws. Whereas if SSBB is developed in such a way your style of play is the only way to go, you limit everyones style of play whether they are conscerned about beating p2ws or not. Just my opinion

More to the topic. I do hope that SSBB goes beyond being SSBM2. For the record wavedashing IS (largely) why I am interested in smash. Watching the smooth mobility of the characters in the matches Isai vs CJ and Isai vs Ken was a big stimulus for my interest. Furthermore, I suck at wavedashing but I think it looks awesome, makes matches very entertaining to watch, I wish I could do it better, or atleast made better use of it. Finally I am p2hf but beyond that I "play for challenge". I do not have many reservations about how I play, I generally don't abuse falcos lasers, chainthrowing more than once or twice, camping, and general projectile spam if I think there is a competent way around it cause I get bored (i.e. not having fun while playing) when its done to me and to an extent when I do it myself. But I appreciate fighting opponents that use all the tools at their disposal cause it make me better too.

I don't really have a strong opinion on whether or not wavedashing should or will stay in. Consider the following though, it is my understanding (I didnt play it much) that in SSB64 you could fall through platforms out of a shield, this was an important technique for SSB64 players. This was removed in SSBM through the addition of spot-dodging. It is very possible that the addition of of some technique in SSBB similarly eliminates wavedashing or makes it less prominent in SSBB metagame.

Fin


* For such a competition to yield an even outcome (in terms of winning record) would require the use of some incredible and largely logic-defying mindgame, in which case I suggest that "paper-scissors" player far excedes the normal player and is simply playing with a handicap.


Yes, I can't spell/have poor grammar... please get over it

 

[Majora731]

Now that'a nice simple stating of your view without bashing someone's ideas, well done (though i'm not sure about the dedication bit, I taught someone to WD in 5 minutes)

Well yes, once I saw it first performed in a video I immediatly figured out how to do it alone. But to be able to do it perfectly so many times and go back and forth took some time for me. Some of the characters wavedash more or less and that takes adjusting.

 

[Stormkeeper]

I'm all about offensive options. Games where everyone is sitting around waiting for everyone else to make the first move are boring.

Since SSBM removed a lot of the good options from running (i.e. the dash attack's low priority and cooldown, the shortend grab length from dash, etc) and improved a lot of the defensive options (i.e. reduced shield lag, powershielding, dodging both on the ground and in the air etc...) it made it difficult for me to play aggressively (not reactively) without getting owned by a simple jab. I felt that it rewarded campers and punished the ones who were trying to make something happen.

When I was first introduced to WDing (via DC++) I became determined to add it to my play style. WD added a fluidity to the game that running or rolling couldn't touch which in turn opened whole new worlds of options. Smash attacks from dash, feinting backward with WD to draw an attack, WDing in to close gaps quickly without overextending myself, are just a few of the possiblities not to mention all the mindgame options. Wave dashing created ways to actively attack without committing myself too much and provided a new type of control which made it a lot more fun.

Also, options are what gives a game depth and depth is what gives a game replayability. There is a time to dodge, a time to roll, a time to WD, and then a time just to run. Options. This availibility of options also helps determine different styles of play. If I play against my friend's Falcon, then play against my other buddies Falcon, I have to play differently because they play differently. Their styles are different even though they are playing the same char. Although WDing alone doesn't necessarily create this diversity, it is undeniably a contributor and I would hate to see any decrease in play style options.

WD creates options (which is good). It creates control (which is also good), and it adds a hidden lvl of depth (which I also think is good). So I think WD is good. Despite it's "glitchness", time has proven that it hasn't broken the game and completely rewritten the tiers. Whether we like it or not, some chars (no matter how cool they are) will be crappy with or without WDing. Bowser will still have his teeth gritting wind ups, hair pulling cooldowns and a laggy jump.

I like WD and say lets keep it. I just hope that Nintendo focuses a little more time on char balance, cause that's the real issue here.

 

[Inferno_blaze]

Char balance, is a larger issue, they either need o tone down characters like fox and sheik so that their damage does equal their speed, as with their weight (Fox currently is very fast, has a great ranged and is medium on damage and amount he gets knocked back, someone like kirby is light, not that fast and can't take much damage, don't get me started onmost heavy characters). If the incorporate WD then they need to balance the chars around it, they obviously couldn't before because they didn't notice/didn't consider it a big thing

 

[lordsturm473]

To start, the majority of people here are going to support keeping WDing and L-canceling in SSBB just because of the type of players they are. I'm willing to bet that most of the people on this forum are tournament-class smashers, and use these moves to their advantage to win. Tournament-class players will do anything to get an advantage over their opponent most of the time, so they'll support WDing.

I personally don't like glitches or cheats in any game (except the Minus Words in the original SMB and GTA rampaging using the tank ), so I never bothered to learn to WD. I'm not a tournament player, my friends aren't tourney players, and we play the game without complaints. I'm an Ice Climber player personally, and I do just fine against my friends (who aren't exactly easy) without any of these techniques.

Also, I believe SSBM wasn't made to be as competitive a game as Halo 2 or the Soul Calibur series. SSBM was made to be more of a fun, laid-back game with a lot of replay value, IMO. Of course, most of you will disagree with me on this, but I don't think SSBM was meant to be as intense as the aforementioned games.

Taking into account that SSBB might be online, the casual players (like me) and the competitive players (like the majority of Smashboards) will merge in a competitive online community. If they kept WDing in the game, and kept it a "secret" (meaning out of the instruction manual), the casual players would get completely creamed by the competitives.
They may have been beaten by the competitives without WDs in the first place, with WDing, the casuals wouldn't even know what hit them. To even out the online play, they'd either have to get rid of WDing, or make it not as complex and put it in the manual.

But, if WDing was removed from SSBB, how would they make up the loss in order to keep the competitive players playing? The answer is pretty simple. Modified character physics could even out the playing field and make up for the lost speed of WDing. Also, if the new physics modifications don't exactly work, SSBB will most likely be an online game. WiiConnect24 could give SSBB several patches to modify the gameplay and even things out.

That's just coming from a casual SSBM player's perspective. Don't be too hard on me, because from my first impressions of this forum, some of the members can be f***ing brutal to newbies.
-Lord Sturm

 

[Gerbil]

I fully support WD. My main reason is simply because everyone can use it and put it to their own advantage. I myself am a Fox player, and yes I can do some of Fox's infinites (Waveshine, infinite Drill Shine, wall shine, etc) so you may think that's why I support it. Wrong, again I support it because even though it may be a "glitch" everyone can find their own uses and put it to their advantage.

Aside from that, I believe Nintendo stated somewhere about using the same game engine. Wouldn't this mean the return of Wavedashing anyway?

 

[MDZ]

If it's a glitch, it should be removed. But that doesn't mean it'll be gone forever; I'm sure more glitches like this will be found in the release of Brawl.

As much as I enjoy using these 'glitches,' if they are indeed glitches, then there is a high chance they will be removed. I do agree that it seperates the dedicated players from the ones just wanting to hop on the popular game bandwagon, but it really isn't vital to becomming a pro Smasher. Just makes it that much more challenging for you and fair for the people who don't know how to do it.

 

[piZ]

Glitch: A minor malfunction, mishap, or technical problem; a snag

Exploit: To employ to the greatest possible advantage

Technically, we're exploiting the physics engine and the way combat was coded, theres no glitch involved.

 

[Chipman]

Glitch: A minor malfunction, mishap, or technical problem; a snag

Exploit: To employ to the greatest possible advantage

Technically, we're exploiting the physics engine and the way combat was coded, theres no glitch involved.

We're actually exploiting a glitch, it was unintended and we're taking advantage,.
You might as well say that climbing the walls or going through walls in Metroid Prime Hunters isn't a glitch because it helps you. That's the logic you're giving.

But, I don't think it should be removed, it's actually quite a balanced glitch, it offers as much rewards as it does practice and actually balances some characters better.

 

[outrunrazgriz]

n00b Question: What is Wave Dashing?

 

[element_of_fire]

We're actually exploiting a glitch, it was unintended and we're taking advantage,.
You might as well say that climbing the walls or going through walls in Metroid Prime Hunters isn't a glitch because it helps you. That's the logic you're giving.

But, I don't think it should be removed, it's actually quite a balanced glitch, it offers as much rewards as it does practice and actually balances some characters better.

people STOP calling it a glitch... its NOT a glitch that you can airdodge at any point in your jump... its NOT a glitch that you can airdodge into the ground... its NOT a glitch that the character slides when you do this.... its NOT a glitch, wavedashingand going through walls are TOTALLY different things... wd is PHYSICS, going through walls is a GLITCH

 

[outrunrazgriz]

Calm down! It may be unintended but it works for some people so in the end that it all that really matters. Let them call it a glitch if they want to. You call it what you want!

 

[Inferno_blaze]

I'd say it JUST comes under the definition of being a glitch, JUST, and yeah, as he said, you need to calm down.

 

[lordsturm473]

Let's not forget that SSBB could be a COMPLETELY different game that SSBM was. There may be no need to exploit game physics to get the best advantage on an opponent in the new game. If the changes between SSBB and SSBM are as big as SSBM was to the original, there's a good chance that there'll be no need to WD in SSBB. I personally hope so, because practicing WDing eventually puts a strain on my pointer finger. Plus WDing doesn't really make any positive or negative effect on my playstyle (and I play as Ice Climbers, too), so I don't see it as necessary. *Prepares flame shield*

It's kinda like Superjumping in Halo 2. For those who don't know, Superjumping is a "glitch" that allows players who exploit it to jump really high (and I mean really high, almost to the top of most levels) in a certain location in the level. It is technically not cheating to Superjump online(because the developers didn't take it out), but it's still frowned upon by those who either don't know how to Superjump or those who like to play "cleanly". My stance on this is that it's really cheap, especially when they have the Sniper and you can't hit them.

Point being, that just because an exploit is available doesn't mean it's ethical to do so, especially when it gives an unfair advantage. WDing is nowhere near as an unfair advantage as Superjumping is, but it still is an advantage, and has the oppourtunity to ruin the game experience for the loser. Like modding in Halo 2, everyone hates it when you lose to a cheater or someone who exploits an unfair glitch.

My stance on WDing, now that I've tried it, is that it doesn't really give me an advantage (maybe because I can't do it properly, or when I do, it doesn't help me too much), so I'm indifferent as to whether it gets into the next game. But to even the playing field for people who play to have fun, it should probably be removed.
-Lord Sturm

 

[Inferno_blaze]

Good point, though people are just going to whinge that WD is no way near as bad as stuff like that so it's an unfair comparison.

 

[dizzy]

We're actually exploiting a glitch, it was unintended and we're taking advantage,.
You might as well say that climbing the walls or going through walls in Metroid Prime Hunters isn't a glitch because it helps you. That's the logic you're giving.

The game was programmed so that you could air dodge in any direction as soon as you leave the ground. The game was also programmed so that air dodging diagonally into the ground would cause your character to slide. Wavedashing is just the sum of two aspects of the game engine, rather like 1+1=2. Ability to air dodge when you're airborne + slide effect of interrupting air dodge by landing = wavedashing. As far as programming is concerned, the game is working in a perfectly normal fashion.

 

[DSB]

You think what you want. I have my own opinion and I don't want smash brothers to be a good fighting game. I want it to be smash brothers. As it is being played on the pro level. It is not even in the same genre as the game I play. That makes me think that when the fundimental basis of the game changes drastically from how it was oringinally played when you change skill levels. It doesn't even seem like the same game anymore. It becomes all about combos and short hops and speed speed speed. It bores the piss out of me and I don't want to have to play against those kind of people if this game goes online and have them uniformly beat me because I don't want to play the game in a boring and asinine way. You can keep the tactics if you want. I just want the game creator to make it to where they don't dominate so much that I get punished for not using them. The tactics are fun for you people who like that kind of thing. Just realise this game isn't being made ONLY for you.

Are you for real ? When I discovered the advanced tactics it was like a whole new Smash world opened up to me. I don't know how to explain the feeling but I think a lot of people here know what I mean.

 

[outrunrazgriz]

Lol. A noob right? I've tried these advanced tactics but I don't find any point in most of them and I can't do the others so I'm at a disadvantege but do I complain? no. I am good at most games but not good enough to win online on Halo 2 and other games like that so I'm hoping there is a handicap option!

 

[DaBearX]

I'd say it JUST comes under the definition of being a glitch

"You cannot give Reputation to the same post twice." Too bad, I totally agree with you, plus I like how you seem to be open to both sides and are generally not absolute in your claims.

As far as programming is concerned, the game is working in a perfectly normal fashion.

Isn't this true all the time regardless of what happens in the game as long as the game itself doesnt crash? Stuff like the turnip "glitch" or the ice-climbers freeze "glitch", that "glitch" where link/ylink fly way up in the air when they catch a boomerang while hookshotting, are only possible because of how the game was programed. As Blaze suggests, the difference between glitch and non-glitch to me only seems to be an arbitrary reference point determined by the speaker.

Point being, that just because an exploit is available doesn't mean it's ethical to do so, especially when it gives an unfair advantage.

Uh oh, a discussion of ethics.... ill try very hard to be brief here.

Some people think eating meat is unethical but it doesnt stop restauraunts in general to stop serving it.

I liken this to a desire to compete in a game of rock-paper-scissors without the use of "rock" ... ... players who only want to play with paper and scissors should only play against those who play with paper and scissors

If you are genuinely repulsed by "unethical" play you should consider not playing with the people you find "unethical". Much like a vegetarian might be inclined to eat at a purely vegitarian restaurant if they are genuinely repulsed by the consumption of meat. Again this does not keep restaurants from serving meat in general.

Lets try to make it so all parties can have fun

 

[dizzy]

Isn't this true all the time regardless of what happens in the game as long as the game itself doesnt crash? Stuff like the turnip "glitch" or the ice-climbers freeze "glitch", that "glitch" where link/ylink fly way up in the air when they catch a boomerang while hookshotting, are only possible because of how the game was programed. As Blaze suggests, the difference between glitch and non-glitch to me only seems to be an arbitrary reference point determined by the speaker.

Semantics, I guess. But in cases like the IC freeze glitch, the game screws up because it doesn't know how to handle the situation. Something about combining a throw and Over B with the Ice Climbers doesn't bode well, and the game doesn't like it, so the victim freezes over indefinitely. Glitch? I'd say so. Soul Breaker, where the opponent gets attached to Mewtwo's body? Glitch. Wavedashing? A little muddier, because the developers knew very well that you would slide if you air dodged into the ground diagonally. They didn't know the applications, but that doesn't automatically make it a glitch; it is, however, definitely an exploit.

Also, you quoted the wrong person in your last post. I'm not the one who made the rock-paper-scissors argument.

 

[DaBearX]

Semantics, I guess.

Also, you quoted the wrong person in your last post. I'm not the one who made the rock-paper-scissors argument.

Heh, yeah my bad, that was actually me who said it, I guess I got lazy with copy paste, note that I editted the error within 1 minute of the original posting

 

[dizzy]

I edited my post, too, to clarify >_>

 

[DaBearX]

Semantics, I guess. But in cases like the IC freeze glitch, the game screws up because it doesn't know how to handle the situation. Something about combining a throw and Over B with the Ice Climbers doesn't bode well, and the game doesn't like it, so the victim freezes over indefinitely. Glitch? I'd say so. Soul Breaker, where the opponent gets attached to Mewtwo's body? Glitch. Wavedashing? A little muddier, because the developers knew very well that you would slide if you air dodged into the ground diagonally. They didn't know the applications, but that doesn't automatically make it a glitch; it is, however, definitely an exploit.

I do agree with you to a point here, the soulbreakers and freeze glitches argueably cause the victim to "crash" himself, this is arguably true for atleast one of the two turnip glitches, the turnip that is frozen has actually "crashed". Which is largely why I referenced the link/ylink trick, because I could not find a "crash" in this glitch at all (though I did sort of struggle to come up with this example, in the interim ive come up with a couple other similar examples: caping fox/falco/sheik 100%>ledge attack sending them across the screen, the yo-yo glitch). I do agree with you that some events seem "glitchier" than others, but I still think the reference point is somewhat arbitrary.

 

[dizzy]

The cape glitch and Link's hookshot/boomerang glitch both occur because the game hasn't been told specifically what to do in those situations, but the game goes through with it anyway because it doesn't know any better, and weird things happen.

With the cape glitch, one would expect Fox/Falco/Sheik to just be flipped around as usual, but the game doesn't know how to do that because the properties of those hanging-edge attacks are different than regular attacks.

The boomerang glitch occurs because there's supposed to be a catching animation when the boomerang returns to Link, but the game doesn't know what to do when Link is hanging from the hookshot. The game forces Link to reel himself upward, but I guess he never catches the edge. He overshoots and flies up, thus the superjump.

But in wavedashing's case, I'd say the game was told in no uncertain terms that air dodging into the ground would cause the character to slide.

 

[DaBearX]

The cape glitch and Link's hookshot/boomerang glitch both occur because the game hasn't been told specifically what to do in those situations, but the game goes through with it anyway because it doesn't know any better, and weird things happen.

I guess my claim is that the game CAN'T do anything its not specifically told to do beyond causing some form of "timeout" as might be the case in the various soulbreaker glitches. I dont think the computer can just "figure out" what will hapen, its all based on rules. Since these rules are a definte part of the physics engine I argue that the link superjump glitch is no more of a physical phenomenon in smash than wavedashing. Unfortunately I only came to the realization of what my "point" was after writing the message below silly me.

It is difficult for me to present my thoughts in a way that is clear, I hope this makes sense.

I intend to draw similarities between the link super jump (a) and wavedashing (b).

For the record I do not have any certain knowledge of the smash physics engine, nor have I ever dealt with or created any physics engine, nor have I studied at length the computer sciences, nor have I studied at length physics. I don't even know if this is generally how physics engines are created (i.e. physics based on rules). In short I dont know jack, this is purely speculation based on my obsercations.

a. If link encounters a his boomerang when not in a position to enter the catching animation, in the absence of lag (usually due to executing an attack) return link to some standard orientation--if in the on the ground return to normal standing (as observed with ylink taunt-cancelling with the boomerang), if in the air return to standard "in the air" animation.

b. If a character's trajectory would have it pass through an surface that can be "landed on" in the absence of tumbling have character enter a landing mode and display non-tumbling landing animation,

a. If link is hanging from his hookshot he is "in the air" and is not experiencing lag

b. If character is airdodging he is not tumbling and is not experiencing lag (this becomes important later, also I dont think that airdodging gives lag but rather eliminates a characters ability to respond altogether)

a. physics of the hookshot (this is probably the weakest part of the comarison/argument, mostly due to a lack of experience with this glitch, ive never been able to do it myself), if while in hookshot animation link is forced into a normal air condition, realize this by imparting momentum to link dependant upon the relative positions of link and the attachment point of the hookshot (it is my belief that the superjump requires that the change from hookshot mode to normal air mode occur in the span of one frame whereas normal hookshot retraction may occur over several frams and thus the superjump glitch conditions yield move more drastic changes in momentum)

b. physics of non-tumble landing. when landing while not tumbling, in the absence of lag (I'm not sure of the effects when landing while in the lag of a move, perhaps this condition is not necessary) maintain all non-vertical momentum (consider wavedashing on an incline, like on the fin of the great fox in corneria, you can always wavedash on the fin by holding 3 o'clock on the control stick but you can never wavedash while holding 6 o'clock). I think his is true for the two modes of unlagged non-tumble landing that I can think of: simply landing, and airdodging into the ground

a. general air physics. in the absence of "knockback" (some crazy stuff happens when you consider DI and stuff i'd rather not even try to deal with this) momentum in the vertical direction is only mitigated through "gravitational" forces and "drag" forces (i'm not certain that this is the case, but it seems to be sort of relevent, characters have terminal velocities when falling in the absence of "fastfalling" and even fastfalling has a terminal velocity etc.) if vertical momentum is positive (character is ascending, you cant fastfall until you reach the peak of your jump.) This is not a complete discussion of physics in the air but it allows for a lot of what I have observed to happen in smash and does not, as far as I can tell, contradict anything that happens.

(The reason link flies so high is because as suggested above, link is imparted with a very large amount of vertical momentum and it takes a long time for the gravitational and drag forces to reduce this momentum, in which time link has traveled very far)

b. general ground physics. in the absence of forced locomotion (i.e. actively walking or running) momentum on the ground is mitigated through friction forces dependant on the traction characteristic. Similarly this is not a complete discussion of physics in the air.

So! (if you agree with my comparison and my description of the physics engine in general ) the link superjump is no more of an anomaly than wavedashing is as they are both merely following the rules dictated by the physics engine. The superjump just looks weirder...

 

[dizzy]

...

That's all very good and well... But in wavedashing's case, the air dodge's slide effect upon landing was probably intentional, whereas in the hookshot glitch's case, developers most likely didn't even consider what might happen when the boomerang returns to Link in a hanging position. The slide effect was the developer's way of handling the air dodge's premature landing, whereas the hookshot glitch occurs because the developers didn't foresee the problem and thus programmed no solution to handle it. With wavedashing, the developers told the game that air dodging into the ground would trigger the landfallspecial animation and a slide effect. But with the hookshot glitch, the developers didn't tell the game to launch Link three hundred feet into the air; here, because the developers did not provide a specific solution for that particular situation, the game was left to its own devices.

Of course I can't really prove all of this. I can't get into the designers' heads and tell you exactly what they were thinking. Yes, technically both wavedashing and Link's super jump have to follow the game code, but the difference lies in developer intent. It seems likely to me that they knew about the air dodge's slide effect, whereas they were totally oblivious to the existence of Link's super jump.

It's all really subjective, though, and ultimately it doesn't really matter, either. By now, I'm sure the developers know about wavedashing, considering how popular SSBM is and how long it's been out. They'll design SSBB with this knowledge in mind. If they like wavedashing the way it is, they'll leave it. If they like the competitive potential it brings but don't want it to exist as an exploit, they'll rework the technique and officialize it. If they just think it shouldn't have existed in the first place, they could also just remove it.

(By the way, I think Link's super jump was fixed in later releases of the game, so that might be why you can't pull it off.)

 

[Skylink]

I wish I had an earlier version...
Link's superjump looks cool...

Ya but anyways, yes the Wavedash did seem to be more intentional, as dizzy said, and Link flying 300 feet into the air because he caught his boomerang was definitely a phenomenon that was not intended to happen. The developers could have left it in, like many other unintended feats, like the Wavedash, Samuses extended grapple, the black hole glitch, Jigz's rising pound, peaches wallbombing, the bomb jump, Yoshi's Egg poop resize glitch, among other things, because these were all either already moderate, or required procedures to perform. BearX, all you seem to be proving with your slightly redundant points about Wavedashing and the superjump is that they are both physically impossible feats that cannot be done in real life.

 

[DaBearX]

...in wavedashing's case, the air dodge's slide effect upon landing was probably intentional, whereas in the hookshot glitch's case, developers most likely didn't even consider what might happen when the boomerang returns to Link in a hanging position...

A good point, intention (especially considering that the superjump was removed in later versions--which might explain my inability to perform the manuever) seems to of significance.

While it was likely not the intention of developers for wavedashing to be used to the extent that it is today. I still argue that the programers may have coded for conservation of momentum than for wavedashing as suggested by my speculative physics engine (this of course is ideal for proving my point, the only way we can determine the true intention of the developers is to ask them). The fact that there is specific landfallspecial animation I consider likely be the developers trying to make the transition from air to ground during an airdodge more natural (before this animation was created, the characters may have instantaneously changed to normal standing animation). But when you get down to it, wavedashing was never removed.

On the other hand, that the superjump was infact removed in later versions (again I was unaware of this) certainly suggests that it was not intended. I was thinking at first that there was comperable negligence on the part of developers, both in the introduction and removal of these two phenomena, but seeing as that is not the case, you have dispelled this argument.

I'll concede the point for now as I have now suitable arguments or examples against it. I will have to find another example of a non-crash glitch that may have developed under similar circumstances that was not removed.

BearX, all you seem to be proving with your slightly redundant points about Wavedashing and the superjump is that they are both physically impossible feats that cannot be done in real life.

Lol, sorry if the argument I was trying to make was unfounded/unclear (I must have done a very bad job for you to think that I was proving the above).

If you actually give a **** (somehow I doubt you do--and perhaps nobody does), to clarify, I began under the belief that the distiction between a glitch and a non-glitch was very arbitrary/subjective so it is difficult to determine whether or not wavedashing is glitch. Tthe discussion began when I disagreed with an assertion I interpreted as being equal to "if the game is working normally a glitch has not occured". I rebut to the tune of "given that, glitches must cause the game to physically crash" which suggest no events that happen in the game are glitches.

This is countered by the fact that "certain glitches (soulbreakers and such) are similar to causing specific parts of the game to crash". I concede this point but reassert that "while this is true for some glitches I don't think it is true for specifically the link superjump glitch".

I try to use this specific example to show that links superjump while widely accepted as a glitch does not "cause the game to crash" in any way so the defenition of glitch as "something that causes the game to crash in a way" is inconsistent and therfore refuting the assertion that "if the game is working normally a glitch has not occurred".

In short what I think is claimed next is that "there is a characteristic difference between the the level of specification the games program when concerning wavedashing as opposed to link superjumps". I believe this statement works to revise the defenition of glitch as "any event that was not 'specifically' considered by, or associated with some amount of negligence conerning, the games code is a glitch".

Here I describe a speculation on a possible physics engine. My intention was to demonstrate that "The game can't do anything it was not programmed to do, and it may be that the game is not specifically programmed to do anything, it is generally programmed to follow a set of rules". This works to refute that the above definition of glitch by demonstrating that a comperable amount of specification (or perhaps more accurately negligence) through the generality of the physical rules may account for wavedashing and superjumping.

Then the idea that "intention is also a factor in the defenition of a glitch". While I still argue that there may be similarities between how wavedashing and link super jumps came about in the physics engine, it is clear that it was the developers intention to remove super jumps and leave wavedashing in.

This makes the example that I chose to argue with fail to refute the revised defenition of glitch, and so I concede the point.

 

[outrunrazgriz]

Nice Essay!

Let's think about it! Can you double jump in real life? Can you even Jump that high? Is Mario real? Do little monsters jump out of little red and white balls if you throw it?

No! This game isn't supposed to be real. It is supposed to be a Game where famous Fictional characters go to do battle and generally kill Pichu!

What do we call WD any way? Is it a glitch, or just a manouver characters can preform?