WaveDashing In SSBB

[DSB]

L-Canceling should and will stay. I don't care about WDing that much.

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

why does the old have to go for the new to be new?


how would wding or lcanceling effect.... dodge special attacks, or throw escapes, or special in air defense actions?


if the new is good enough, the old wont overshadow it. simple as that.

 

[Skylink]

L-Canceling should and will stay. I don't care about WDing that much.

2 things: WDing would requiore that ground sliding or airdodging be removed and also, WDing is really easy to learn. You could learn it in 10 minutes. (If you are actually trying) L-Canceling is very hard to always effectively do, and it would be much simpler to remove.

 

[JFox]

Actually Skylink some brought up a point that the game creators could keep sliding animations and air dodges but still remove WD'ing. They could make it so that if interrupt that airdodge by hiting ground, that your character would fall over. Personally, I feel that that would add an interesting aspect to the game, although I still like WD'ing. But did you know that Falco can spike with his get up animation? Think of the possibilities if you were able to fall to the ground on command.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

Oh yeah... falling over... that's a great idea.

 

[Skylink]

Actually Skylink some brought up a point that the game creators could keep sliding animations and air dodges but still remove WD'ing. They could make it so that if interrupt that airdodge by hiting ground, that your character would fall over. Personally, I feel that that would add an interesting aspect to the game, although I still like WD'ing. But did you know that Falco can spike with his get up animation? Think of the possibilities if you were able to fall to the ground on command.

To be honest, even though it would be cool to be able to do that on command, as a lot of charachters have good wakeup attacks, too many of us use WDing too much. WDing is a good thing, even though it is a glitch. If the developers put in Lcanceling in melee then i doubt that they would get rid of wavedashing, even if it were to be moderated. In my opinion though, Z canceling did need to be moderated, but L canceling is pretty fair. If they moderated it then there would be no point to learn to WD, people would just roll.

 

[y2kbakura]

Excellent point. Excellent....

But, I was reffering to competitive play not being the same, not in Brawl, but in Melee. Someone mentioned something about L-Cancelling, and then someone said L-Cancelling defines higher-end players, and I commented on WDing.

But, you're right. If Brawl was just a Melee clone, it would be somewhat boring somewhat quickly. It needs to have a good variety of new things added, but I believe that the L-Cancel and the WD can stay and not really take away much from the game.

ture a new game is gonna be interesting but, we need to keep wavedashing in,
simple in every competitive game there is some type of techniche that pro players
use in order to move, like back-dash cancelling in tekken, and step dashing in SC3
spacing is a big part of every game simple concept if you cant tocuh me you cant kill me
we need to have some sort of movement technique in the new one in order to seperate the scrubs from the pros, even if they take wavedashing away i dont care as long as they have
some sort of movement techiniche.

 

[Inferno_blaze]

Um skill seperates noobs from pros, noobs can WD, it doesn't seperate them, without WD pros would still easily own noobs, I believe there is a movement technique called a roll.

 

[Skylink]

Um skill separates noobs from pros, noobs can WD, it doesn't separate them, without WD pros would still easily own noobs, I believe there is a movement technique called a roll.

It's not about owning n00bs. noobs are the people who buy the game, learn to beat lvl 9s in about an Hr, act like they are the champions of life, and never hear of SWF or WDing. They are not the ones at the tournaments, they aren't what most of us are comparing ourselves to. Besides, the skill that you are talking about is properly using the WD and other advanced skills to defeat your opponent. The removal of these techniques would destroy the foundation of tons of peoples' skill

The Wavedash balances the game by making the High, mid, and low tier characters playable at local tournaments. Without the WD, all the characters from high tier and down have no chance against a good top or upper tier.

 

[Inferno_blaze]

I'm talking like that because of the previous post, please read it he was talking about seperating noobs from pros, removing WD wouldn't ruin peoples skill, in a new game you should expect to have to learn new ways of playing not just go on and play exactly the same and win (unless of course you like EA games)
WD does NOT balance the game, it makes some characters better, a lot of which are in the top tier already and makes most of the med-lower tier chars worse, plus that arguement holds no water as brawl is a new game it will have different balance issues so you can't say some chars will be unbalanced with it

 

[Marth 616]

It's not about owning n00bs. noobs are the people who buy the game, learn to beat lvl 9s in about an Hr, act like they are the champions of life, and never hear of SWF or WDing. They are not the ones at the tournaments, they aren't what most of us are comparing ourselves to. Besides, the skill that you are talking about is properly using the WD and other advanced skills to defeat your opponent. The removal of these techniques would destroy the foundation of tons of peoples' skill

The Wavedash balances the game by making the High, mid, and low tier characters playable at local tournaments. Without the WD, all the characters from high tier and down have no chance against a good top or upper tier.

Agreed...removing WDing will be a very foolish idea.

 

[dizzy]

The Wavedash balances the game by making the High, mid, and low tier characters playable at local tournaments. Without the WD, all the characters from high tier and down have no chance against a good top or upper tier.

Not really. The game is imbalanced with or without wavedashing. To be sure, the tiers would be slightly different if wavedashing wasn't a staple in today's metagame, but some characters would still perform better than others, and thus there would still be tiers. So wavedashing doesn't necessarily do anything good for game balance - it makes some characters better and others relatively worse, so balance is shifted, not improved.

The only valid argument for wavedashing is that it brings depth (not balance) to competitive play. It creates a lot of new offensive and defensive options, which is certainly not a bad thing. But from a programming standpoint, wavedashing is really nothing more than the result of a developer oversight. And aesthetically speaking, the developers did not intend for Luigi to slide across Final Destination faster than Captain Falcon can run.

As people have said, though, there are some examples where the designers took SSB64's exploits and reworked them into regular tactics in SSBM. Z-cancelling, which negated lag completely in SSB64, became L-cancelling, which only reduces 50% lag in SSBM, for example. It's very possible that wavedashing will receive similar treatment. I'm guessing that the developers will do something to adjust the range of possible wavedash lengths, so that Luigi's wavedash won't be significantly longer than Link's. They might also give wavedashing its own animation instead of making it share landfallspecial with almost every third jump in the game.

Or they might just take it out altogether, I don't know.

 

[Suska]

I think that wavedashing should stay but it should but balanced. I mean Luigi WD pretty much all the way across the stage but my character, Kirby, cant WD worth S***. Also, if they do let it stay they need to get rid of the infinate combos.

 

[Office_Shredder]

But from a programming standpoint, wavedashing is really nothing more than the result of a developer oversight. And aesthetically speaking, the developers did not intend for Luigi to slide across Final Destination faster than Captain Falcon can run.

Except luigi can't.... so yeah

 

[y2kbakura]

Um skill seperates noobs from pros, noobs can WD, it doesn't seperate them, without WD pros would still easily own noobs, I believe there is a movement technique called a roll.

hell0

what do you think knowing how to space yourself is
its's skill,for example try to play marth withoth knowing how to space yourself, withouht
wavedashing even a noob sheik will beat you ok
look at any pro player it's not the only thing they use but they do use it
so wavedashing in order to space yourself is skill
something a noob ramdomly spamming smashes is never gonna learn
oh and FYI if you ever use a roll as a movement techniqe i will punish you
and beat you

 

[Hyper-Link]

Bakura I would roll all over you and still Pawn you. WDing can't have you face them on the right and then face them on the left. WDing can help you move back while still facing. Every technique has it's time. But ya, I could spend a whole match not WDing and still murk you. Aside from the slight spacing that let's me still face the opponent(all I use it for anyway), and some projectiles, your *** is grass

 

[Crazy_hand]

To be honest I only just finally learned to use the wavedash(I've heard about it a few months ago though) so most of you might consider my opinion to be pointless, but here's what I think.

If people use the wavedash then it shouldn't be removed in brawl, I don't think it changes gameplay so much that a fight would be unfair and onesided. If gamers take the time to learn a technique that might or might not help them then why remove it? The gamers might not have intended for it to be used or anything, but it doesn't affect gameplay so much that a fight would be onesided. I don't really support wave dashing, (I think it's not that helpful though I could be wrong since I can never go to any tournaments and see how more competitive players fight) but I think they should keep Wave dashing regardless.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

WDing doesn't seperate novices from pros. Knowing when to use it does. It takes 30 seconds in training mode with Luigi to learn how to do it. It takes scores of fights against pros to learn when to do it (for me, anyway). Couldn't the same be said for every single other move in the game? What makes the WD different than your Fsmash, other than the fact that it wasn't "intended"? Removing WD would be removing a move from the game... Why would you want to do that when it clearly has deep roots in the competitive Smash community, but isn't essential or even much known to the party Smasher?

 

[Sensai]

Um skill seperates noobs from pros, noobs can WD, it doesn't seperate them, without WD pros would still easily own noobs, I believe there is a movement technique called a roll.

This is one of the faultiest points I've seen against WDing. Rolling is useful, sure, but it's so cumbersome and gets easily read very quickly.

And, moving things to just rolling would make a lot of characters MUCH weaker. Samus springs to mind.

 

[element_of_fire]

ok wd is only useful if you know how to make it useful... like any move... shieldgrabbing separates bad players from good ones more than anything... wd should hardly be considered

 

[Noypi_GjD]

shieldgrabbing separates bad players from good ones more than anything... wd should hardly be considered

I think this should be quoted for emphasis.

 

[Sensai]

ok wd is only useful if you know how to make it useful... like any move... shieldgrabbing separates bad players from good ones more than anything... wd should hardly be considered

Hm...I somewhat agree. Shield grabbing is a great thing, and obviously very significant. So yes, knowing to shield grab seperates my sister from my dog.

But not L-Cancelling is what seperates my sister from me. If I L-Cancel, then I can hit her before her grab completes, and save myself from the endless multitude of punishment awaiting me.

So, before we say Shield grabbing's what seperates the good from the bad, we gotta say that the only reason that the person can grab is 'cause the other one can't L-Cancel.

Or, WD outta the way. :-)

[Edit:]

Or, can't* WD outta the way. :-)

 

[Noypi_GjD]

^Good point, however, I'm not a good at L-Canceling cause whenever I aerial attack my brother when he is shileding he always punishes me.
I think Shield Grabbing hurts noobs more is because noobs have a tendancy to use dash attacks and charge into battle. Your right that the lack of L-cancelling can lead to one being punished by a Shield Grab but, a smart player can just camp him with projectiles or JC grab them.

 

[y2kbakura]

Bakura I would roll all over you and still Pawn you. WDing can't have you face them on the right and then face them on the left. WDing can help you move back while still facing. Every technique has it's time. But ya, I could spend a whole match not WDing and still murk you. Aside from the slight spacing that let's me still face the opponent(all I use it for anyway), and some projectiles, your *** is grass

Why dont you put your money where your mouth is huh?

there's a tournament in conneticutt i want you to go and win it
whithout wavedashing because you won't
every top player uses it. true it's not the only thing they use but they DO USE IT
so go on challenge me to a MM and well see how far your rolling gets you.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=72186

 

[controlfreak7]

I'm just curious can all those against wavedashing debating/arguing in this thread please tell me cause to be against wavedashing is one of the most idiotic things (omg flame rofl) you can say. Why? Because it can easily open up debates for other things being stupid, cheap or just being plain against something.

Seriously if someone can complain about wavedashing I can easily complain about jumping, walking/dashing (moving in general), smashing, edge hog and edge guard, well just about anything as much as anyone can complain about wavedashing =D. Just to show u how stupid u sound.

 

[dizzy]

Well, there's a rather large difference between jumping, which is totally standard in fighting games and intended by the developers, and wavedashing, which is the result of a rather large developer oversight that happens to shift the balance of the game pretty seriously. However, competitive players don't really consider developer intent when formulating their strategies, because for them, competitive depth takes priority over aesthetics.

 

[commonyoshi]

Exactly. If you are against WDing because the developers didn't intend for it to be used that way, then you are against every single other "mistake" developers have made. The halo sniper riffle bouncing off walls, dunspare's flinch haxing. Everything. You fail.

 

[controlfreak7]

Well, there's a rather large difference between jumping, which is totally standard in fighting games and intended by the developers, and wavedashing, which is the result of a rather large developer oversight that happens to shift the balance of the game pretty seriously. However, competitive players don't really consider developer intent when formulating their strategies, because for them, competitive depth takes priority over aesthetics.

The point is not whether or not it is intended, but there are numerous other things that affect balance of the game. Fox's shine, Falco's recovery, while all intended anyone can complain about them just as those who complain about wavedashing. What i can tell you is that although wavedashing was found as a glitch/mistake or whatever else u want to call it, developers left in regardless of what it's potential was. But how do we know that the devolopers intended for falco's jump and shining to work almost perfectly together to make combos? Or how they created bowser to be slow but strong, but didn't realize that there was more to character choice than speed and strength. I can't blame people for wanting to have a more balanced game, but I can argue the expectation of diversity within a game and keeping it balanced. That is impossible.

The discovery of the wavedash was accidental, the wavedash was accidental, but you can't argue that regardless of whether or not developers saw the potentail of the wavedash they intentionally kept it in the game. (and didn't later on change the game to remove it)

Even without the wavedash and probably in any other game, the game is not played the developers expected it to be played. (Well that is kind of an opinion, but I think that its well enough backed to believe)

 

[y2kbakura]

The point is not whether or not it is intended, but there are numerous other things that affect balance of the game. Fox's shine, Falco's recovery, while all intended anyone can complain about them just as those who complain about wavedashing. What i can tell you is that although wavedashing was found as a glitch/mistake or whatever else u want to call it, developers left in regardless of what it's potential was. But how do we know that the devolopers intended for falco's jump and shining to work almost perfectly together to make combos? Or how they created bowser to be slow but strong, but didn't realize that there was more to character choice than speed and strength. I can't blame people for wanting to have a more balanced game, but I can argue the expectation of diversity within a game and keeping it balanced. That is impossible.

The discovery of the wavedash was accidental, the wavedash was accidental, but you can't argue that regardless of whether or not developers saw the potentail of the wavedash they intentionally kept it in the game. (and didn't later on change the game to remove it)

Even without the wavedash and probably in any other game, the game is not played the developers expected it to be played. (Well that is kind of an opinion, but I think that its well enough backed to believe)

Amen to that brother,
finally somebody whos not a whiny bicht

 

[xanthosis]

Well, there's a rather large difference between jumping, which is totally standard in fighting games and intended by the developers, and wavedashing, which is the result of a rather large developer oversight that happens to shift the balance of the game pretty seriously. However, competitive players don't really consider developer intent when formulating their strategies, because for them, competitive depth takes priority over aesthetics.

Good point. Wavedashing is also immensley harder, with only some of the world's best smashers being able to pull it off.

 

[Brightside6382]

I think everyone is giving WD way to much credit. Many of you think WD was a revolution of fighting games and if they took it out from the next smash the competitive scene is going to suddenly die out. Get real, WD'ing is just a slide across the freaking ground, its not some kind of godly technique that makes smash what it is. WD'ing is simply an exploit that we learned how to abuse in Melee. If they do decide to take it out, Brawl isn't going to become any better or worse in any way. If anything it will just lead the community to find new exploits and those exploits will start being used in competative play and we are back where we started. I think most of you are forgetting that Brawl is a entirely NEW GAME. If you wanna keep WD, L cancel, and all the advance techniques we might as well all consider Brawl a recreated Melee with prettier graphics and a couple of new chars.

 

[Dragonboy2k4]

I think everyone is giving WD way to much credit. Many of you think WD was a revolution of fighting games and if they took it out from the next smash the competitive scene is going to suddenly die out. Get real, WD'ing is just a slide across the freaking ground, its not some kind of godly technique that makes smash what it is. WD'ing is simply an exploit that we learned how to abuse in Melee. If they do decide to take it out, Brawl isn't going to become any better or worse in any way. If anything it will just lead the community to find new exploits and those exploits will start being used in competative play and we are back where we started. I think most of you are forgetting that Brawl is a entirely NEW GAME. If you wanna keep WD, L cancel, and all the advance techniques we might as well all consider Brawl a recreated Melee with prettier graphics and a couple of new chars.

I strongly agree.Its not the end of the world if they do take WD out,as Nintendo seems to be finding a way to unite the "tournment(pros)"players with the"causal(beginners)"players.You guys always forget to concider the people would love to play and stand a chance of winning without having to learn such techniques.The less exploits they are in a game,the more people that will be playing it in the long run.Imagine the amounts of newcomers to tournments if this game is changed for the better.

 

[y2kbakura]

I think everyone is giving WD way to much credit. Many of you think WD was a revolution of fighting games and if they took it out from the next smash the competitive scene is going to suddenly die out. Get real, WD'ing is just a slide across the freaking ground, its not some kind of godly technique that makes smash what it is. WD'ing is simply an exploit that we learned how to abuse in Melee. If they do decide to take it out, Brawl isn't going to become any better or worse in any way. If anything it will just lead the community to find new exploits and those exploits will start being used in competative play and we are back where we started. I think most of you are forgetting that Brawl is a entirely NEW GAME. If you wanna keep WD, L cancel, and all the advance techniques we might as well all consider Brawl a recreated Melee with prettier graphics and a couple of new chars.

dude, when they made melee for the 64 they kept a lot of the things that made the 64 one a good game, like l cancelling, however they toned it down. in the first one l-canceling would be instantenous which made some characters way to broken, so it was toned down to reduce your lag, they will do the same thing with wavedashing, if they tone it down it's okay
as long as they keep some form of it

 

[Inferno_blaze]

z-canceling was NOT a good thing in 64, they made it good in melee, I completely agree with brightside, he's following the best arguement which i've stated before and yet people ignore me and automaticaly think I'm anti WD.

 

[piZ]

If you wanna keep WD, L cancel, and all the advance techniques we might as well all consider Brawl a recreated Melee with prettier graphics and a couple of new chars.

Isn't that what a sequel is? The previous game recreated, but updated...

 

[Dastrn]

i have two things to say:

1. wave dashing IMO is most useful for spacing. There's nothing wrong with that.

2. the dev team knew about it in Smash 64 and yet they left it in this version. that suggests to me that they will probably leave it in.

so lets not argue. it'll be there.

 

[Plomid]

could it be?

now id like to quote from my
"Everything wii know about Brawl" thread

Quote:

Originally Posted by controlfreak7
May I ask all the *******s attacking the **** out of Plomid to please stop. He is doing something for the Smash Community. Something that noone asked him to do. He never said that this information is most likely unknown. Read the freaking topic to yourself: Everything wii know about Brawl.

That clearly says that the information contained in the topic is all we know so far and not OMGZORZ NEW INFO THAT WE NEVER KNEW. I myself although knew most of the facts, didn't know all the stage rumors. So this topic was somewhat useful. You wanna ***** about this topic? Make a topic that is more useful (and the only thing that is more useful that what we know is what we don't know which probably means it hasn't been revealed) than this and then come back and complain about it. Speaking of which this topic obviously isn't going to be closed =). And Plomid is also right when he says that noobs will probably post asking questions and this topic will answer them rather than creating new threads.

I wanna bring about that my cousin pointed out. Although I sort of doubt it for some reason, on the day the smash trailer was released and my cousin watched it, he told me to watch the ending carefully. It was right before Snake who is hiding in the box pops out and says "Showtime" or w/e. Mario gets hit by Link and partially goes flying and comes down and does a d-smash. Right before he does the d-smash my cousin said that he thinks Mario did a wavedash. I got lucky to pause on the perfect frame and it indeed look like the smoke/dust that is the aftermath of a wavedash, but could have easily resulted from mario landing on the ground and then d-smashing. I'm not saying that it is for sure the wavedash and neither is my cousin, but I can say that it is sort of debatable although I doubt its a wavedash.

thanks for backing me up man i really appreciate it
as for your uncles discovery
now this has been said before but it isnt really wavedashing but it is what wave dashing is made of: the landing slide and if that stays in its almost certain that wavedashing will but they could of course remove the angle you can point the air dodge to but that isn´t very likely. so there you have it if the game is true to the trailer and air dodging will stay the same we will probably be seeing wave dashing in the next game folks

now all i say is do i make any sense?

 

[Brightside6382]

Isn't that what a sequel is? The previous game recreated, but updated...

If all sequals were just previous games recreated then the gaming industry would go nowhere. Easily enough compare SSB to SSBM the concept is the same but gameplay aspects changed almost every part of the game and how it was played.

 

[G-Sword]

If all sequals were just previous games recreated then the gaming industry would go nowhere. Easily enough compare SSB to SSBM the concept is the same but gameplay aspects changed almost every part of the game and how it was played.

agreed 100%

 

[Jiikae]

I think that it is LIKELY that wavedashing is going to stay. The reason I say this is because the physics in the trailer looked about the same as melees. If wavedashing goes... oh well. I had fun with melee before I knew how to wavedash and I don't think that'll change. I doubt anyone bought melee because they heard you could wavedash. Or l cancel.