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Watching The World Burn: Zard Video Thread! [9.29.15]

JOE!

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
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Dedham, MA
@ Heroofhatz Heroofhatz

Alright, played many more falcons this time at SG and finally figured it out.

It was mainly a "me" thing since I play a very airborne zard, which unfortunately leads well into Falcon's combo game. By staying grounded, our tilts, and especially jab, pretty much just shut down anything falcon wants to do, and he can't really play run away as well as even though we're slightly slower, we just outrange him so damn much that being just within reach even if he is running is still within range.
 

*Zen

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 9, 2011
Messages
11
Location
France
Here is stuff of my Charizard during Republic of Fighter 3 Project M tournament :

*Zen vs Dacacia (ZSS) Winner bracket
*Zen vs Prinz (Link, Fox) Winner bracket
*Zen vs aMSa (Lucario) WSF
*Zen vs Professor Pro (Snake) WF
*Zen vs aMSa (Lucario) LF

Very nice tournament, I learned a lot, and yet have lot to learn. It motivated me to attend more tournaments abroad.
If you have any comment on things I should work on, and unsafe gimmicks I shoudln't be using, I'd be glad to hear it.
Also, I'm so regretful that I didn't ask Yomi for freeplay, next time I'll correct that.
 

Heroofhatz

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 13, 2013
Messages
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Location
Oxford Ohio
Now that I've admired how much butt you've kicked, I'll try and offer any advice that I can.

As far as your matches with aMSa are concerned, I really don't know what to tell you. You did everything I thought of and a lot more besides. I've never really fought lucario before so I don't want to give bad advice.


Now for Snake:
First of all, you played this very well, prof did a lot of things with snake that I haven't seen of and were very clever. You also did an amazing job of avoiding his stuff and pulling a lot of really sick moves in those matches. However, there are a few things that you could have done which I think would have helped you. Those claymores that Snake sticks in the ground? You can Nair them in relative safety, you aren't reserved to using flamethrower to hit them. RAR Nair will kill them no problem. Also, whenever you get snake in the air, don't feel so obligated to chase him into the air with super jumps, you just weren't getting milage off of it a lot of the time, and if snake ever got below you, it was trouble. If you can get him to use his second jump, Usmash can cover pretty much all of Snake's down to earth options since it has such a massive disjointed hit box. Also, I know how much you love your platform tech, but you really should have been sticking as close to the ground as you could at all times. Snake has incredible options on people above him, with Usmash and Cypher and whatever other nonsense he does. To that effect, I would almost choose stages with less platforms, just so it's not as easy to get stuck above him. Also if you look at the sizes of the punishes from the two of you when the other was on a platform, I think prof beat you pretty badly in punishes.

I know it's not much, but that's honestly because you're already doing a heck of a lot right and a ton that I can't even think to do yet. Keep up the awesome work and I'll be looking forward to your next couple of matches!
 

Mera Mera

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Joined
Dec 1, 2009
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Those matches were awesome, Zen, good job!

Also your tech skill makes you really fun to watch! That glide use was crazy! And I'm definitely stealing that wavedash backwards off platform -> nair. That was really good! I can't believe I never thought of that... and it ever works on FoD O_O
 

Mera Mera

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Dec 1, 2009
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Wait, couldn't Dash Attack off an edge / Flamethrower edge cancel also go into Nair?!
Yeah. And it's not a bad idea, but he mostly used it for burst range/safe way to get down, so in most cases I would probably opt to just wavedash backwards off... but it is a good thought. It could be an interesting follow up when you dash attack someone on the ledge (since, as you seem to know, you can hold towards the ledge and you'll fall off facing the ledge for the reverse nair).
 
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Blank Mauser

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 16, 2008
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I wish I could've watched those videos before I left to UFGT. I learned so much watching you Zen! Amazing stuff.
 

-Key-

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
Messages
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Wesley Chapel, FL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwXp-gC1YcI#t=2m18s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwXp-gC1YcI#t=4m35s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwXp-gC1YcI#t=4m56s

What is the purpose of the Reverse Glide -> Reverse Glide ledge re-grab here? Is it invincible? When I try to do it, I never get momentum back towards the edge like is shown in the video. The only way I can re-grab is if I execute at a much faster rate (I'd estimate I'm inputting twice as fast as what is shown when it works), any slower and it never works. What gives? Any advice would be much appreciated!

On a related note, I've read on here that Glide Stalling is fully invincible if performed correctly, but I must not be performing it correctly because I will sometimes get hit. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong though, so if anybody could describe how they perform a Glide Stall it'd be really helpful. Thanks!
 
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Heroofhatz

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 13, 2013
Messages
244
Location
Oxford Ohio
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwXp-gC1YcI#t=2m18s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwXp-gC1YcI#t=4m35s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwXp-gC1YcI#t=4m56s

What is the purpose of the Reverse Glide -> Reverse Glide ledge re-grab here? Is it invincible? When I try to do it, I never get momentum back towards the edge like is shown in the video. The only way I can re-grab is if I execute at a much faster rate (I'd estimate I'm inputting twice as fast as what is shown when it works), any slower and it never works. What gives? Any advice would be much appreciated!

On a related note, I've read on here that Glide Stalling is fully invincible if performed correctly, but I must not be performing it correctly because I will sometimes get hit. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong though, so if anybody could describe how they perform a Glide Stall it'd be really helpful. Thanks!

So after doing a bunch of research, it turns out the glide camping a ledge cannot be fully invincible, even if it is frame perfect. There's like 2-3 frames that you would be vulnerable. However, in order for someone to hit you out of a glide camp, they need to be close enough to get Glair-d, which is a crazy fast ledge option. So while it isn't good for spamming, it can lure your opponent into a trap.

As far as the reverse glide reverse cancel is concerned, it just looks cool and does make the spacing of hitting you a lot harder for your opponent, but it isn't fully invincible.
 

Alderwin

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 27, 2014
Messages
7
I have a question. In the third video of Zen's most recent post/upload of videos at about 1:32 he does a weird aerial. Is this his upB in the side direction?
 

-Key-

Smash Cadet
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Wesley Chapel, FL
I have a question. In the third video of Zen's most recent post/upload of videos at about 1:32 he does a weird aerial. Is this his upB in the side direction?
At 1:34 he does aerial Side-B and then does a really fast B-reversed rising Glair as he gets back up on stage.
 

Mera Mera

Smash Journeyman
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Neenah, WI
Hey, I'm gonna comment play by play. Feel free to critique/disagree with/discuss my critiques.

I use the term burst range a lot. It's a term in fighting games that means the range where the opponent could hit you faster than you could react (in other words you can't block on reaction, you can only block in time if you guess correctly that he will attack).

[collapse=play by play critiques]
2:08 : Match starts. You dash dance on a platform.
You want to get good stage position asap and/or counter poke at one of Marth's immediate options out of spawn. Since on PS2 you spawn pretty far apart, you should probably just drop down asap and start stealing as much space as possible while not going deep into his burst range.

2:10 : You come down with a dair.
It's true that sometimes you should come down with aerials, even though this isn't safe, simply because you don't have many options. That said, don't lose sight of the main objective. You are not trying to hit him, you are trying to safely return to neutral. Do an aerial that protects you best, like in this case fair, rather than the move that would net you the biggest combo (dair). Save moves like dair for when they made a mistake and are clearly in enough endlag for you to hit with the move for free.

2:14 : You shield Marth's dair and roll away.
Any time Marth hits your shield and lands near you he's screwed. If you see Marth coming down and know he's gonna land with unsafe spacing, then get ready to shield grab, up smash out of shield, or if it will kill him, up b out of shield.

2:15 : Now close to the ledge with few options, you jump.
It might honestly be better to retreat to the ledge or go for a platform sometimes. In this case Marth retreats way too far and it would have been a good opportunity to steal the space back and keep neutral rather than keeping you staggered (staggered meaning at a disadvantage, like being above someone or being cornered by the ledge ect)

2:17 : You shield grab and pummel, then Marth struggles out.
The shield grab was smart. Make sure you only pummel at later percents.

2:18 : After the grab break you roll towards them.
In the uncomfortable situations where both players are clearly in each other's burst range, it's often smartest to dash away. Rolling is vulnerable at the final third of the animation, and can be punished by anyone who knows this and doesn't prematurely commit to an action during/before your roll. As a side note, in situations similar to this like when someone techs away and you can't reach them in time, you can go for passing them -> pivot grab. It sounds weird, but since they have a frame disadvantage, they will likely go for shielding or spot dodging. This covers both options since it delays the grab long enough to grab after when they would spot dodge. Also, if they choose shield, they will likely keep shielding simply because they are waiting to act out of shield after something hit's their shield.

2:19 : After your roll you go for a down smash and get hit by Marth's dair.
Marth didn't punish the roll in time so you were able to act. Since he jumped in once again with poor spacing, you should instantly think to shield -> punish out of shield.

2:20 : After you get hit, you go for another dsmash and get hit by marth's f-tilt.
Once again both players are uncomfortably in each other's burst range. You have a frame advantage so you could have dashed at him which may have scared him into shield/spot dodge (and then go for pivot grab). That said, you're so close that turn around -> jab or f-tilt would be reasonable options. Especially since your frame advantage isn't enough to ensure he'll go for the defensive, making run past -> pivot grab unsafe. As per usual if you are uncomfortable with any of these, dash away and punish whatever he does is also a solid option.

2:21 : You roll away, possibly because you accidentally shielded and wanted to get away(?)
Dash away was your best option. You want to be out of his burst range but you don't want to give him more space than he's earned, and roll away definitely gives him an opportunity to gain back some control. Remember how you reacted when you were by the ledge? You didn't have solid options and ended up jumping even though Marth's shield -> OoS options beat all of your aerials (assuming you don't hit him before he can react, aka hit him shortly after jumping). That said, once you were in shield, you were a safe enough distance away to simply wavedash out of sheild away, which would have would have both prevented him from stealing much space and opened up the option of tilt's and jab.

2:22 : You hit Marth with dash attack.
While it did work out, keep in mind this move is risky. If you predicted the jump, shield is better. This Marth is way too aerial crazy and you should punish him for it. The second he jumps is the second you stop fearing grab, and your OoS options are good.

2:24 : You jump after Marth and Nair after hitting him with up smash.
Since up smash won't lead to true, still in hitstun combos against Marth, and Marth still had his second jump, it is better to stay grounded and cut off his options for a safe landing using your fast dash speed. Remember, if Marth lands near you he's screwed, and when you are on the ground and he's in the air, you are much faster than him. If you shield and he second jumps you can wavedash out of shield to stay under him or jump to chase him now that he doesn't have a jump (but make sure you come at him in a way that you can out range him, which is hard for Marth in particular).

2:25 : You land and shield Marth's falling dair. and roll towards him.
Up smash might not hit, but nair OoS would. Also, if you didn't know, you can smash the joystick left during the hit on shield to move left (you won't roll because you are in shield stun, this is shield smash DI). Smash shield DI can risk accidental rolling, but it can be useful at times. You can also use the c-stick, which takes priority for roll/spotdodge/jump out of shield inputs but moves you less than the joy stick does for shield smash DI. So for example you could smash left with the joystick and right with the c-stick so that you will either slide left in shield stun or roll away. This is called "option selecting."

2:28 : You're on a platform and just shielded Marth's uptilt. You full hop out of shield to escape the pressure and nair.
Your objective is to get back to neutral. The way I see it, once you shielded the up tilt you either had the option to wavedash away and go for a run off fast fall bair to cover your landing, or you could full hop (short hop is risky since his uair outranges all of your quick aerials and he could hit you before your nair goes low). Once you jump, you want to go for a nair if you see him jump, since he can no longer shield. If he doesn't, I like to go for heatwave to either cover my landing and/or boost me safely away to let me land. He did jump but I'm not sure it was early enough for you to react so personally I would have gone with heat wave. Either way, make sure you don't miss that fast fall if you nair and he's far below, as you ended up nairing at nothing :p

2:30 : You're back on the platform and you shield as he short hops under you.
This is why being on a platform sucks. You can't punish him out of shield and your shield shrinks over time. He chooses to delay his up air, which is smart. You probably should have stayed in shield until he hit your shield or landed. If he just lands, then there's very little landing lag and wavedash out of shield is unsafe since he might instantly uptilt. Also, don't forget to tilt your shield downwards so that you can't get poked. Lastly, while I doubt this player does this, be wary of second jump -> waveland -> grab in situations like this. It's slow enough where you can react to it, but even so your situation has likely gone from bad to worse, especially if the character you're facing has jab/grab mix ups and/or shield pressure options.

2:31 : Marth hits you with uptilt and starts to chase upwards by landing on a platform.
Since he is on a platform, he has limited his ability to chase left and right and he gets on the platform when you're still well out of his reach. As such, either heat wave or second jump -> heatwave to burst you away would likely allow you to either land on the ground or at least the opposite platform.

2:37 : You shield grab Marth and back throw him onto a platform, then immediately jump at him and nair.
Zard can reliably punish all of a character's get up options and/or tech options on reaction when he is under them and grounded. Instead of nairing, you should dash and then crouch to stop right under them (or wavedash if you're still in a dash). Then, react to his get up options (or tech options if you got there in time). If you are there before his tech options: no tech or tech in place means you should up tilt (better follow ups) and tech roll means you should follow -> up smash. If you didn't get there in time to cover his tech options (like this time), then if they missed the tech you can still punish them in a similar way, though it is slightly tighter timing. Use uptilt once again to punish stand up, uptilt but delay it to punish get up attack, and follow -> up smash to punish the roll get ups.

Sooo that was a lot. One thing I'll add is that at 8:08 you might have been able to glair after that sourspot uair. Regardless, make sure you react to DI rather than input a combo before you know it can hit. There might be a few combos where a read is needed, but for the most part you should be able to either follow a combo on reaction and/or cover all their options so reaction isn't an issue.
[/collapse]

Also, most of the time I say you could shield you could also crouch cancel and possibly have better options... Marth's sweetspot dair will eventually break CC and nair will at higher percents, but that's about it. If Nair is autocanceled you won't have much time to punish it, but that requires him to do an early rising nair, so you'll know early in his jump whether or not to worry about that.

Shield is recommended so often by me not because it is the end all be all of the neutral game, but because the player didn't respect shield as an option and so you should have abused this fact. Generally speaking, if your character doesn't have a safe aerial -> jab/grab mix up, nor can they shield pressure, then landing anywhere near a shield means that character is screwed. Since Marth and Zard can do neither, we need to be VERY careful on our spacing when taking to the air in neutral. If you're not going to cross them up, then don't hard approach in the air (again unless you can be safe on shield with shield pressure or aerial to jab grab mix ups like C. Falcon). Instead only jump to "counter poke" what you think they might do.

The characters that can safely land near both shields and a crouch canceling opponent are in the minority... I'd say spacies, maybe Lucas and Lucario because of their strong shield pressure options, and C. Falcon and Mario because of aerial -> jab/grab mix ups. Maybe a couple others for the jab/grab mix up reason, but the aerial has to have low endlag (and it needs to break CC, so said move will probably will be a multihit) and the jabs have to do enough damage to have some semi-decent shield stun and/or have a soon enough interrupt for the grab to be a threat. Also maybe Mewtwo and Peach when they use float/hover cancel, since that leads to one of the few true frame advantages on shields.

Hopefully I don't sound too critical. I make lots of these mistakes as well despite knowing better, so sorry if you already knew all this. I know I break all my rules when I'm nervous :s

Great job on the match! I hope this helps!
 
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LavaLatte

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Messages
65
Because the front page isn't really updating anymore, I've elected to start a Youtube channel. It'll contain playlists of mostly tourney play of Charizard players, and if I find time I'll upload matches that are only available on twitch *cough John12346 John12346 cough*

So far I've created playlists of Oracle Oracle , metroid1117 metroid1117 and *Zen *Zen of basically any games since the December patch, and I'll probably update it monthly of something. I'll be adding more player playlists as more of their vids surface :3 Hopefully it becomes a Charizard VOD hub or something. This is mostly for my own studies anyway ;D

https://www.youtube.com/user/LavaLatte/playlists

Peace~
 
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Oracle

Smash Master
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Apr 15, 2008
Messages
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Dallas, TX
Ugh dat netplay match. Thats what happens when you play a 7 3 mu with lag. Yeah I havent been playing zard recently because most of the ppl in my scene play characters that wreck him, but I may start playing him a bit more in dubs
 
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Heroofhatz

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 13, 2013
Messages
244
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Oxford Ohio
Ugh dat netplay match. Thats what happens when you play a 7 3 mu with lag. Yeah I havent been playing zard recently because most of the ppl in my scene play characters that wreck him, but I may start playing him a bit more in dubs
He's a freaking amazing Dubs char, also, don't give up on Zard bro :D learning bad MU's is half the fun! It makes you a much better player by doing it.
 

Oracle

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Apr 15, 2008
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Lol im not giving up, its just hard to find times to play him when I could win with one of my other chars a lot easier.
 

Heroofhatz

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Messages
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Lol im not giving up, its just hard to find times to play him when I could win with one of my other chars a lot easier.
I'm feeling that way against Link right now, considering picking up a secondary, but I think I can win it with Zard. Him and Mario are like the only two MU's I've run into that I really struggle with. Hopefully I'll have some vids up later this week so I can get some feedback on them.
 

John12346

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NNID
JohnNumbers
and if I find time I'll upload matches that are only available on twitch *cough John12346 John12346 cough*
Yo I swear I'll post any matches I get streamed. I was at a tourney last week, but unfortunately streaming priority went to Maylay, Fighting Street, and Super Fun Time Marvel 3

Next week I'll be headed to a PM exclusive tourney so if there's any streaming there and I get to be famous somehow I'll let ya'll know. I promiiiiise
 
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D

Deleted member 189823

Guest
I might recommend reposting this question in the Charizard General Discussion forum, but for what it is worth I can help explain the meta a bit.

Charizard can be played as a passive aggressive or full agro character. You'll win a lot of matches by spacing people with Nair and using it as your primary focus for the neutral game. Keep in mind that Nair is your best move, incredible spacing potential, amazing edge guard opportunities, and event good combo potential to boot.

In the neutral game you will usually want to dash dance around mixed with doing Reverse Arial Rush Nairs to outspace and pester your opponents shield. Try and keep you back to them as much as possible since that's where you have the most range and are the safest honestly. Keep in mind that Nair with destroy projectiles that aren't lasers or physical objects like bananas or turnips. However a decent alternative if you don't have you back turned to them is just to jab, the disjoint in big enough that it will still destroy projectiles, and also acts as an anti-air (it's almost a perfect counter to Mario's full hop fire ball approach since it clashes with the fireball and also hits him). If your opponent is ever above you, best option is to try and get under them and Usmash or even jab since it's got some pretty massive disjoints. Using this strategy is a little more useful against floaty characters like Peach and Wario, but just Nair camp against Puff. Also crouch canceling a jab out of a run is pretty amazing too, spaced properly it's pretty safe too. That's generally the basics of the neutral game, also get grabs if you can since you have a really good grab range. But don't get to greedy with it, you want to force them to make a mistake, not read everything they do.

The offensive game has a few different ways it can go.
First of all throws:
If you get a grab, you have a few options. Bthrow can equal a free Fair or a free sourspot fair to Dair (the Zard Ken combo), but this is only if they do not DI away from you.
Generally Dthrow is better because it's a tech chase that is weighed pretty heavily in your favor. When you Dthrow, look for a tech. If they don't tech, jab them, you get about 3 or 4 frames advantage if they don't tech. If they do tech you can do one of a few things, either chase for a regrab, or if you were predicting it, you can cover two tech options with a Dsmash properly spaced. This is usually best near a ledge cause you can cover pretty much every option. Keep in mind you can also jab if they tech in place but grab is a little bit safer. It's not quite so good you can just react, but you can get a lot of precent on reallllly quick. Also, if your opponent is at kill percent, just Uthrow. Even if it doesn't kill them, it puts them in a bad offstage position since you can super jump and pester them in the air.

Your combo game revolves around getting your opponent in the air, and Zard's got like 5 launchers so you should be pretty good at doing that. Jab, Dsmash, and Usmash are your best launchers (besides Nair I guess). Off of a jab you can get Fair or Usmash. Usmash doesn't usually directly lead into anything, but super jump chases with Uair or even a well spaced Nair are great. If you ever get super jump Uair, just chain 1 or two together then finish with an Up B at the top of the screen, it kills ridiculously early. Dsmash is very character, weight, and percent dependent. On some lower percents you can just straight Fsmash people out of it. at upper percents it leads more assuredly into the Uair chain Up B combo at the top of the screen. Dair functions in much the same way. However a lot of smash is figuring out the combos that work for you so feel free to experiment.

Where you can get a lot of leverage is your ledge pressure. A reverse Nair can easily hit below a ledge, nullifying perfect spots on any character. Fun fact it's also a semi spike. The timing can be strict, but it isn't too hard to learn. You also have Dtilt, which if you hit with the flame has about the same hit boxes at Marth's F smash, but not quite as below the ledge. Even side B can hit below the ledge. Also you have flamethrower, which can be brutal to a lot of characters. You can also stall the ledge by dropping off the ledge and gliding right back onto the ledge.

Your Defensive game:

You're fat, and you're really large, learn to accept this early and you'll do better. You can get juggled by falcon and MK like you wouldn't believe, expect it and DI you hardest to get out of that stuff.

Recovery: Glide is amazing, and glide attack has stupid priority, only disjoints can beat it. This should be your main recovery option for pretty much every situation, especially if you get sent high since you can glide high over your opponent, wavebouce the glide and Nair as you fall to cover yourself. Also remember you can cancel Glide into an up B, can be extremely useful in a lot of situations. If you get hit out of your glide though, you will loose all of your jumps, so don't get hit, go under the stage if you have to. If you do get hit out glide, don't forget you can boost yourself back with side b.

On the ledge:
You've got a few things you can do from the ledge. First of all you can glide camp by just dropping off the ledge and immediately gliding, done fast enough I think you can be fully invincible. You can fake them out by glide camping, but instead of camping the ledge just Glair, it will set you onstage and it's really wicked fast if people aren't expecting it (fun fact you can also waveland it if you're get the angle right, also works on platforms or the ground). You can also ledge drop double jump side b. If you do it correctly you should end up right back on the ledge so they can't punish it. You can also ledge drop double jump flamethrower. If you've got space to work with, it's a great way to give yourself a bit of room onstage. You can also do and normal ledge drop arial, Fair isn't bad, or you can be like falcon and Dair if they recover onstage. Or heck even Nair and you'll hit them with the semispike.

In shield:
You've got shield-grab for in front of you, short hop OOS Nair for cross ups, Usmash OOS for when they are above you, and Up B OOS for when you really just need to get your opponent away from you. Note that up B OOS is REALLY RISKY, but it has decent knock back, try to aim for a platform with it though so that you don't get in so much landing lag.




I would say that's the gist of playing Zard, I'd love to answer more of your questions, but let's try and keep this to the Zard discussion forum since this one is specifically for match analysis.

If all else fails, just Nair a lot and you should be fine :p
And welcome to the club!
Dude, thank you so much for taking your time to write all of that up. Very informative, covers the important areas I need to know and it's easy to understand.

Sorry, didn't exactly want to derail this, but I needed to thank you. 8P I began playing P:M yesterday because I haven't had a Wii for months, and so I do, now. Charizard feels so swell. :awesome:
 
D

Deleted member 189823

Guest
I'll hopefully post some stuff of mine soon. Alot of us here are beginning to dwell into the world of P:M.

Charizard is so beast.
 

Heroofhatz

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Oct 13, 2013
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Oxford Ohio
Dude, thank you so much for taking your time to write all of that up. Very informative, covers the important areas I need to know and it's easy to understand.

Sorry, didn't exactly want to derail this, but I needed to thank you. 8P I began playing P:M yesterday because I haven't had a Wii for months, and so I do, now. Charizard feels so swell. :awesome:
I'm actually writing a much more in depth guide and I am hoping to finish it up in a week or so. Keep you're eyes peeled for it.
 

LavaLatte

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Messages
65
http://www.twitch.tv/freesaltines/b/538860425?t=18m52s
This is my VOD vs. DJ Nintendo's Ike at a local NY tourney. It was my first ever entry into a singles tourney, but you could probably tell I was having a lot of fun getting wrecked :D Any tips are very much welcome, from stage picks to neutral game to recoveries to edgehogs, the world must know about LavaLatte's charizard! XD
 

metroid1117

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Joined
Sep 1, 2005
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Location
Chester, IL
I honestly haven't played this match-up before on the Charizard end of things, but in general, you were getting popped up a lot by spaced aerials. At low %s, Ike's aerials are pretty susceptible to getting CC'd, so while he's in the air, you can either run up to him and CC or shield. CC'ing is probably more profitable when done properly because you can punish Ike with jab or DTilt, but beware of getting QD JC grabbed. Ike's enormous range makes it difficult to out-space him with NAir, so you want to primarily stick to the ground and shark under him once you get him in the air; in this position, when you're directly below him, the only moves he can use to cover himself are DAir and NAir, both of which are relatively easy to dash dance around or shield grab. Ike doesn't really have any good combo-breaker moves in the air, so once you get a juggle on him, use your best judgment to chase him down and keep pressuring him. His weight and fall-speed make him relatively easy to juggle, so it's not hard to severely punish him once he's in the air.
 
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SHIP

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 21, 2013
Messages
95
Location
South West UK
http://www.twitch.tv/freesaltines/b/538860425?t=18m52s
This is my VOD vs. DJ Nintendo's Ike at a local NY tourney. It was my first ever entry into a singles tourney, but you could probably tell I was having a lot of fun getting wrecked :D Any tips are very much welcome, from stage picks to neutral game to recoveries to edgehogs, the world must know about LavaLatte's charizard! XD
When you have Ike up in the corner spamming his fair to keep you out its probably worth pulling out neutral b or sideb because they have quite a bit of range. You could also try spamming ftilt as it moves you a little closer each time you press it.
Also all your nairs were facing the enemy. That move is sooooo much better when you are facing away and get the little whip at the end or the strong upward hitbox at the start.
Combo-wise you could probably get in a few more usmash/utilts before you jump into the air after Ike. You landed a bunch of grabs at low percent but never went for dthrow to rack up percentage. Back throw to forward air would probably work better than back throw ftilt.

For stages I definitely like the battlefield starter. Its not too big or too small and has plenty of platforms.
I would recommend not going to final destination with Charizard. I always feel that I am at a significant disadvantage on that stage against anyone whose reach comes even close to rivalling Charizard's.
 

LavaLatte

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Messages
65
Thanks! I was unfamiliar with Ike's weight, so after a while I figured out B-throw into F-Tilt didn't work on him. One of my biggest problems that second match was him planking on the ledge, how to I safely avoid that from happening and/or punishing it? Is reverse nair a safe answer to that?
 

SHIP

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 21, 2013
Messages
95
Location
South West UK
Thanks! I was unfamiliar with Ike's weight, so after a while I figured out B-throw into F-Tilt didn't work on him. One of my biggest problems that second match was him planking on the ledge, how to I safely avoid that from happening and/or punishing it? Is reverse nair a safe answer to that?
I'm not sure if nair is safe there. I really prefer to just play it like its a sheik in melee and just wait to punish when they try to get off the ledge.
 

LavaLatte

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Messages
65
Alrighty, I'll try to remember that.
Btw, I uploaded the John12346 John12346 vs. Rolex match from way back when to Youtube, cuz I hate watching vids on twitch =P Slight lag in a couple spots, but otherwise still very entertaining.
 
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John12346

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 24, 2009
Messages
3,534
Location
New York, NY
NNID
JohnNumbers
Alright well here are some matches from the tournament today:

http://www.twitch.tv/beastmodeny/b/539704594
http://challonge.com/PMHYPENIGHT15: Lava got 5th and I got 2nd, so good show on our parts.

LavaLatte vs thesage: 4:07:25 - win 2-0
John#s vs Ninjalink(winner's finals): 4:36:30 (this set isn't worth watching I played really pathetically) - lose 2-3
LavaLatte vs Moxie: 5:02:50 - lose 1-2
John#s vs Moxie(loser's finals): 5:28:30 - win 3-0
John#s vs Ninjalink(grand finals): 5:39:20 - lose 1-3

It would be cool if someone were to get these up on Youtube, but w/e it's not a big deal.
 
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