Watching The World Burn: Zard Video Thread! [9.29.15]

[bubbaking]

If you can grab a spacee near the ledge, proceed to throw him off immediately and make sure he never gets back on. Flamethrower covers 99% of their options, and once they fall far enough, you can just dair them or whatever you want.

 

[LavaLatte]

The most important part I would say is to get the grab. Charizard has a stupid tech chase game with dthrow and bthrow.

Using dair to cover a tech in place yields magnificent results. Even if you miss it and they tech away charizard is quick enough to be able to chase them and regrab.

Would this be following d-throw? I find myself being beaten by getup attack whenever I d-throw, so I usually opt for b-throw.

 

[BluntedMask]

Would this be following d-throw? I find myself being beaten by getup attack whenever I d-throw, so I usually opt for b-throw.

The situation I was talking about was from bthrow. The only reliable punish for a missed tech from dthrow is jab that I have found so far.

To add on to bthrow, a crouch cancel jab can work if they di super far away, or even RAR nair on certain characters. Say against meta knight it is reliable.

 

[metroid1117]

Would this be following d-throw? I find myself being beaten by getup attack whenever I d-throw, so I usually opt for b-throw.

DThrow has about the same amount of lag as Fox's DThrow, so it's hard to follow up with anything except for jab, DTilt, or grab if they tech in place. I personally prefer BThrow, since you can either combo them or tech chase them out of it.

 

[JOE!]

Dthrow is god tier on platforms, dont forget.

However, can we get Smash4 Bthrow speed, pls? <3

 

[~@~Tilde~@~]

DThrow has about the same amount of lag as Fox's DThrow, so it's hard to follow up with anything except for jab, DTilt, or grab if they tech in place. I personally prefer BThrow, since you can either combo them or tech chase them out of it.

Does Dthrow then them teching away the direction you're facing confirm a Dtilt?

 

[metroid1117]

Does Dthrow then them teching away the direction you're facing confirm a Dtilt?

It depends on the length of the opponent's tech; if it's bad enough then yeah, you can get a free DTilt on certain characters (probably Pikachu, Squirtle, and G&W).

 

[*Zen]

Hey everyone, for people a bit interested in netplay, I've been hosting a netplay tournament, and got some footages from my charizard. Note : The tournament was limited to Europe players.
Don't be afraid of minor lags though :

WB me(Charizard) vs Hean (Marth) : http://www.twitch.tv/rashattack/b/521324993
GF me (Charizard) vs Anaky (Link) : http://www.twitch.tv/rashattack/b/521366795

 

[JOE!]

At around 5:34:00 here: http://www.twitch.tv/gameunderground/b/521260189

Got footage of me vs LiquidKDJ. I need to work on my defensive game, just dont have experience on how to DI some things lol

 

[LavaLatte]

Hey everyone, for people a bit interested in netplay, I've been hosting a netplay tournament, and got some footages from my charizard. Note : The tournament was limited to Europe players.
Don't be afraid of minor lags though :

WB me(Charizard) vs Hean (Marth) : http://www.twitch.tv/rashattack/b/521324993
GF me (Charizard) vs Anaky (Link) : http://www.twitch.tv/rashattack/b/521366795

Welcome back to the boards *Zen , your games are always fun to watch :D Do you have any specific mindset when fighting projectile-heavy characters like Link? It seemed like a lot of Nair spacing and top-screen kills, but that's Charizard's answer to almost everything.


@ JOE! : Great stuff showing that Charizard tech to the commentators, they loved it XD A couple of things to point out about your match - a lot of your spacing issues could have been solved by either wavedash back, or reverse Nair and platform L-cancelled Nairs. It's the age old "Why do X when you could Nair," Charizard question XD Specifically when Zelda was behind you, a quick SHHFL Nair out of shield sets up for Down-B followups. When on a platform above Zelda, you have a habit of fullhopping into a falling Nair, when a short-hopped Nair [while waiting for the tail hitbox to go below the platform before fastfall L-cancelling] gives pressure much faster. Something KDJ slowly picked up on was the habit of ledgedrop Fair forward, where he either shieldgrabbed or waited just far enough back. You can mix it up with a Fair to ledge regrab or glide shenanigans.

I was cheering you on in stream when it was live, you was great! I'd say just do 100 reps of SHFFL Nair in training room and you'll be good to go. Of course I'm just a forum lurker, but that's my two cents =]

 

[JOE!]

Yeah, I've only been competitive for... 4 weeks now, still have a ways to go

(Tho if its any consolation, I 2-0d everyone else in my pool and got 13th overall)

 

[*Zen]

@ LavaLatte Honestly, I never got to fight a Link before. Seems like I tried to space out with nair. Tried to pressure by spamming nair from above platform, and then bait his aerials/projectiles, and shielddrop to either punish (mostly using bair, and upair), or get closer to him if he used projectiles.

 

[JOE!]

Oh, in that link starting at 13:52:00 I have random 2am matches that I have "tired" johns for lol

 

[Heroofhatz]

Hey all, so recently I played in a tourney in Dayton Ohio and got second at a PM tourney (I lost to Boss's Diddy). I've got a few matches from that event that I would like advice on, specifically WF and GF when I played Boss, I just didn't know how to fight against all the banana pressure. Usually I use Nair/jab to nullify most projectiles but unfortunately the bananas stay after I clash with them.
(Sorry for the commentary audio glitch, but it's pretty quiet so hopefully it doesn't get in the way too much)

Winners Semis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROIbwNxGRSo
LF: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiP9hoiF3mo
WF: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SwIPq1X0o8
GF: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_em4BJewLY

I think overal I need to learn to play a bit more aggressively since my general style is pretty passive aggressive. Especially against Boss, I was trying to prioritize beating him at the banana game as opposed to beating him first and getting him offstage. I think that if I was better at staying right on top of him all the time it would have worked out better. Also, does anyone have any tips on edge guarding Diddy? I was trying for a lot of reverse Nair semi spikes but they didn't really work out and in hind sight I probably should have been using Dtilt.
Thanks for any insight you guys can give me!

 

[Deleted member 189823]

*Not sure where to ask, so here I go...*

Hello.

I am new to Maylay and P:M and I haven't exactly gotten to either of them competetively, yet. But I'm interested, considering it's popular and simply being another Smash...game (?), I'd like to hop in.

Haven't picked a main yet. But from the beggining, I thought of Charizard as one of my main candidates because I actually would've mained him in Brawl, if he were solo. And I like bad-ass looking characters. So I'm curious to at least see what he's about, from the very little I've seen (I've seen Metroid against M2K at LF, yesterday and like 1-2 matches from Aposl).

Is there some sort of metagame guide for P:M's Charizard, where I can get some pointers as to "how to play", him? Or do I just work off Maylay basics and try to make up my own moveset flowchart?

 

[SHIP]

*Not sure where to ask, so here I go...*

Hello.

I am new to Maylay and P:M and I haven't exactly gotten to either of them competetively, yet. But I'm interested, considering it's popular and simply being another Smash...game (?), I'd like to hop in.

Haven't picked a main yet. But from the beggining, I thought of Charizard as one of my main candidates because I actually would've mained him in Brawl, if he were solo. And I like bad-*** looking characters. So I'm curious to at least see what he's about, from the very little I've seen (I've seen Metroid against M2K at LF, yesterday and like 1-2 matches from Aposl).

Is there some sort of metagame guide for P:M's Charizard, where I can get some pointers as to "how to play", him? Or do I just work off Maylay basics and try to make up my own moveset flowchart?

I just try to play him like a really fat Falcon. Dash dance, space nairs, tech chase off down throw and try to link stomps into kill moves like forward air or upB.
Jab, grab and nair are pretty much my go to moves all the time.

 

[Heroofhatz]

*Not sure where to ask, so here I go...*

Hello.

I am new to Maylay and P:M and I haven't exactly gotten to either of them competetively, yet. But I'm interested, considering it's popular and simply being another Smash...game (?), I'd like to hop in.

Haven't picked a main yet. But from the beggining, I thought of Charizard as one of my main candidates because I actually would've mained him in Brawl, if he were solo. And I like bad-*** looking characters. So I'm curious to at least see what he's about, from the very little I've seen (I've seen Metroid against M2K at LF, yesterday and like 1-2 matches from Aposl).

Is there some sort of metagame guide for P:M's Charizard, where I can get some pointers as to "how to play", him? Or do I just work off Maylay basics and try to make up my own moveset flowchart?

I might recommend reposting this question in the Charizard General Discussion forum, but for what it is worth I can help explain the meta a bit.

Charizard can be played as a passive aggressive or full agro character. You'll win a lot of matches by spacing people with Nair and using it as your primary focus for the neutral game. Keep in mind that Nair is your best move, incredible spacing potential, amazing edge guard opportunities, and event good combo potential to boot.

In the neutral game you will usually want to dash dance around mixed with doing Reverse Arial Rush Nairs to outspace and pester your opponents shield. Try and keep you back to them as much as possible since that's where you have the most range and are the safest honestly. Keep in mind that Nair with destroy projectiles that aren't lasers or physical objects like bananas or turnips. However a decent alternative if you don't have you back turned to them is just to jab, the disjoint in big enough that it will still destroy projectiles, and also acts as an anti-air (it's almost a perfect counter to Mario's full hop fire ball approach since it clashes with the fireball and also hits him). If your opponent is ever above you, best option is to try and get under them and Usmash or even jab since it's got some pretty massive disjoints. Using this strategy is a little more useful against floaty characters like Peach and Wario, but just Nair camp against Puff. Also crouch canceling a jab out of a run is pretty amazing too, spaced properly it's pretty safe too. That's generally the basics of the neutral game, also get grabs if you can since you have a really good grab range. But don't get to greedy with it, you want to force them to make a mistake, not read everything they do.

The offensive game has a few different ways it can go.
First of all throws:
If you get a grab, you have a few options. Bthrow can equal a free Fair or a free sourspot fair to Dair (the Zard Ken combo), but this is only if they do not DI away from you.
Generally Dthrow is better because it's a tech chase that is weighed pretty heavily in your favor. When you Dthrow, look for a tech. If they don't tech, jab them, you get about 3 or 4 frames advantage if they don't tech. If they do tech you can do one of a few things, either chase for a regrab, or if you were predicting it, you can cover two tech options with a Dsmash properly spaced. This is usually best near a ledge cause you can cover pretty much every option. Keep in mind you can also jab if they tech in place but grab is a little bit safer. It's not quite so good you can just react, but you can get a lot of precent on reallllly quick. Also, if your opponent is at kill percent, just Uthrow. Even if it doesn't kill them, it puts them in a bad offstage position since you can super jump and pester them in the air.

Your combo game revolves around getting your opponent in the air, and Zard's got like 5 launchers so you should be pretty good at doing that. Jab, Dsmash, and Usmash are your best launchers (besides Nair I guess). Off of a jab you can get Fair or Usmash. Usmash doesn't usually directly lead into anything, but super jump chases with Uair or even a well spaced Nair are great. If you ever get super jump Uair, just chain 1 or two together then finish with an Up B at the top of the screen, it kills ridiculously early. Dsmash is very character, weight, and percent dependent. On some lower percents you can just straight Fsmash people out of it. at upper percents it leads more assuredly into the Uair chain Up B combo at the top of the screen. Dair functions in much the same way. However a lot of smash is figuring out the combos that work for you so feel free to experiment.

Where you can get a lot of leverage is your ledge pressure. A reverse Nair can easily hit below a ledge, nullifying perfect spots on any character. Fun fact it's also a semi spike. The timing can be strict, but it isn't too hard to learn. You also have Dtilt, which if you hit with the flame has about the same hit boxes at Marth's F smash, but not quite as below the ledge. Even side B can hit below the ledge. Also you have flamethrower, which can be brutal to a lot of characters. You can also stall the ledge by dropping off the ledge and gliding right back onto the ledge.

Your Defensive game:

You're fat, and you're really large, learn to accept this early and you'll do better. You can get juggled by falcon and MK like you wouldn't believe, expect it and DI you hardest to get out of that stuff.

Recovery: Glide is amazing, and glide attack has stupid priority, only disjoints can beat it. This should be your main recovery option for pretty much every situation, especially if you get sent high since you can glide high over your opponent, wavebouce the glide and Nair as you fall to cover yourself. Also remember you can cancel Glide into an up B, can be extremely useful in a lot of situations. If you get hit out of your glide though, you will loose all of your jumps, so don't get hit, go under the stage if you have to. If you do get hit out glide, don't forget you can boost yourself back with side b.

On the ledge:
You've got a few things you can do from the ledge. First of all you can glide camp by just dropping off the ledge and immediately gliding, done fast enough I think you can be fully invincible. You can fake them out by glide camping, but instead of camping the ledge just Glair, it will set you onstage and it's really wicked fast if people aren't expecting it (fun fact you can also waveland it if you're get the angle right, also works on platforms or the ground). You can also ledge drop double jump side b. If you do it correctly you should end up right back on the ledge so they can't punish it. You can also ledge drop double jump flamethrower. If you've got space to work with, it's a great way to give yourself a bit of room onstage. You can also do and normal ledge drop arial, Fair isn't bad, or you can be like falcon and Dair if they recover onstage. Or heck even Nair and you'll hit them with the semispike.

In shield:
You've got shield-grab for in front of you, short hop OOS Nair for cross ups, Usmash OOS for when they are above you, and Up B OOS for when you really just need to get your opponent away from you. Note that up B OOS is REALLY RISKY, but it has decent knock back, try to aim for a platform with it though so that you don't get in so much landing lag.




I would say that's the gist of playing Zard, I'd love to answer more of your questions, but let's try and keep this to the Zard discussion forum since this one is specifically for match analysis.

If all else fails, just Nair a lot and you should be fine
And welcome to the club!

 

[Heroofhatz]

Hey I got some more matches from a Cincinnati tournament, went up against Hanky Panky in GF and got 1st overall.

GF:http://www.twitch.tv/arcadelegacy/b/523359307?t=8h39m45s
WF: http://www.twitch.tv/arcadelegacy/b/523359307?t=8h9m30s

I did really well at this tourney, though any advice would be appreciated :D
Thanks!

 

[Ace55]

My set vs Amsah's Ivy. Tips, tricks and other advise appreciated.

Also the last two matches vs Guus's G&W

 

[Heroofhatz]

My set vs Amsah's Ivy. Tips, tricks and other advise appreciated.

Also the last two matches vs Guus's G%W

The main reason you lost is because our edge guarding wasn't getting you anywhere. For the most part he would always get back on for free. But if you look at the first stock of the first match, you grabbed the ledge and forced him to tether over you. You then got a nice punish with a Fair, keep doing that. It's sort of like sheik, get the ledge and force them to use a bad get up attack, Glair is fast from the ledge if they seem to be getting away to fast. If they just hold their tether, you can either wait for them to be forced to get up or just ledge drop Nair. I'm not too certain on how Zard fights tethers so I may not be the best person to be giving you advice on it, but this is just some food for thought. Regardless, learning to punish tethers is necessary for this MU.

You're doing a lot of stuff in the Neutral game right, Ivy is just an especially tough MU since he can outspace you. The problem is that you weren't getting a lot of leverage on your punishes, you'll get a few hits, but nothing like Ivy was getting on you. Part of that is due to the fact that Nair isn't the best combo move, also that you're fat and he's Ivy.

One thing that will get you a lot farther is using Dthrow. You kept using Bthrow well after he had consistently figured out the DI for it, and thus never really got anything for it. Zard has a pretty crazy tech chase game, feel free to abuse it for all it's worth.

Hope that helps, didn't get a chance to watch the GW match but hopefully I'll have time later

 

[LavaLatte]

Someone should update the first post. Being updated as of over a year ago is nothing to brag about. :3

 

[Oracle]

Went all zard at the weekly yesterday, got 2nd to awestin. Ness is pretty horrible for zard vids will be up on tourneylocator's youtube in a few days

 

[Heroofhatz]

Went all zard at the weekly yesterday, got 2nd to awestin. Ness is pretty horrible for zard vids will be up on tourneylocator's youtube in a few days

What's giving you trouble with Ness?

 

[Oracle]

can't get around pk fire, fair beats all my moves, can't combo him because dair beats all of your juggling moves, can't edgeguard because pk thunder beats all of your moves besides sweetspot nair, and every grab/hit on you is 80% for free through combos/techchases.

 

[Heroofhatz]

can't get around pk fire, fair beats all my moves, can't combo him because dair beats all of your juggling moves, can't edgeguard because pk thunder beats all of your moves besides sweetspot nair, and every grab/hit on you is 80% for free through combos/techchases.

Hmm...
The Nair edge guard should be pretty dang free imo. If it isn't working for you though, chase him offstage and either steal the thunder of Bair/Reverse Nair him.

As far as PK fire is concerned, you either need to read the jump and RAR Nair him before it comes out, or avoid it altogether. it's kind of hard to get around, but Zard is certainly fast enough to be able to.

The dair combo breaker is just something you're going to have to deal with, Uair chains an such will only work off of a Dair or a Dsmash since they have such good hitstun. Though something to think about is not trying for a lot of those chains, staying under him with a Usmash is pretty dang effective as well. You're whole goal is to push him offstage, that's where you're going to get your kills via gimps and such.

Fair is really good imo, but Nair is longer, it's just a spacing battle and he's got a few more options than you even if Nair is pretty good.

As far as the combos are concerned, well, you're Zard. You're fat, and you'll get killed for it a lot.

Use a lot of grabs, specially Dthrow tech chases.


I would have to wait and see the matches in order to give more advice, so let me know when they are up so hopefully I can help more.

 

[Oracle]

I mean I understand the matchup lol. Its just really skewed in ness' favor

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

If you can't juggle with upairs, charge your DownB, fly up next to your opponent and juggle with sweetspot reverse nairs. (you can't juggle many floaties, people with third jumps, and so on and so forth. Force them to waste their mobility and then juggle from further away. Or just wait at the ground with superior ground speed. hard against ness none the less because of his damn fire.

Fire sucks, very true.

It sounds like you're quite frustrated. Obviously there's matchups that'll **** Charizard, but just sticking your head in the sand and stopping to change your playstyle because you "understand" the matchup wont help at all. I have alot if Friends who act similarly, it's really something you have to avoid. If he ***** you in neutral and has better combo game, you gotta find something new.
Powershield the PK-Fire (afaik one of the easier projectiles to do so...dash-in to powershield), outcamp him with nairs, gimp, juggle by forcing him to run out of options in the air (->nair juggle, upsmash/grab punish for whiffs)

and i know you know all this, but the way you display everything is skewed. Ness and the Ness player is also afraid of things you have against him. you kill him early of the top and you should be able to edgeguard him anytime he drops under the ledge and has to use his rejump.

Looking forward to the vids though

 

[Oracle]

Im not really looking for advice. He asked what I had trouble with and I told him. Knowing how to 'beat' all his stuff in neutral doesnt change the fact that zard has to win neutral 4 or 5 times more than ness due to the nature of the characters. If yall have specific stuff when the matches are uploaded then fine, but assuming I dont know what to do vs ness is laughable

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

Yeah, my post wasn't there to give general advice to you, i assumed you knew everything i wrote.
It's just that I've experienced the "i can't do anything against xy because of matchup" attitude alot, and i think it's very harmful.

There's (almost) always stuff you haven't perfected yet, that'll change the matchup. As for Ness, i bet you're not powershielding the majority of his fire's yet, which is something you could use to change the neutral game of the matchup quite a bit.

Not saying i'm able to do it, not saying you're not already working on it and/or good at it, but being caught in a negative mindset is very hindering.

 

[Oracle]

Yeah youre right. Id rather just play some other character bc I get really frustrated losing to someone I could beat in an even mu. Just gotta play better

 

[JOE!]

So, as you can see from this vid, this guy had enough badges to train my ass, as well as everyone else at SG except KDJ in Grands.

But, it occurred to me that this was the 1st time I've fought a falcon in tourney, you guys have anything you can say to pick this apart? Definitely a ton of mistakes I've made / places where I probably could've been more patient or gimped him.

 

[Heroofhatz]

So, as you can see from this vid, this guy had enough badges to train my ***, as well as everyone else at SG except KDJ in Grands.

But, it occurred to me that this was the 1st time I've fought a falcon in tourney, you guys have anything you can say to pick this apart? Definitely a ton of mistakes I've made / places where I probably could've been more patient or gimped him.

He's just flat out outplaying you, he had you locked in you shield or just standing around a lot. This was something that I struggled with against fast falcons for a lot longer than I care to admit. You kind of just sat there as he ran circles around you. You never really used Nair to give yourself space, or anti-air'd him with Jab, or really gave him anything to be scared about in the least. You were always in the air, you never were really dashing on the ground or abusing the fact that you can very easily keep pace with him. You kept throwing out a lot of unsafe moves hopping for him to run into them as opposed to batting some speed and moving around.

The one thing that got me out of that rut was somebody telling me to just go nuts with tech skill and WD and Dash dance a whole bunch one of the matches I played, and joy of joys it worked. So here's my challenge to you next time you play a falcon...

Dash Dance! Bait some approaches! Run! Always be moving/Wave dashing/dash dancing and never falter, even if it looks like he's going to run at you, run away and Nair! You can so easily outrange him or just flat out anti air him! Also, gimp with that Nair! It's soooooooooooo good on Falcon, like, really good.

Also, mix up those techs every now and then by not tech-ing, or DI so that you don't get knocked down off of throws.

Also Bthrow is good on him for tech chases since he drops like a rock, you aren't reserved to Dthrow all the time.

Overall you just looked stumped by his speed, and just sat there trying to predict an approach and guess where he was going to end up as opposed to moving around and making HIM figure out where you were because you dash dancing around. It is possibly to play the stone cold wall game against falcon, but don't do that to yourself. Abuse the fact that you are just as fast as him!

 

[JOE!]

Yeah, usually I play a more "defense" game as of late just due to the SG metagame full of Links and Marths: bait and abuse those guys.

Doesn't work so well vs falcon

 

[Heroofhatz]

Yeah, usually I play a more "defense" game as of late just due to the SG metagame full of Links and Marths: bait and abuse those guys.

Doesn't work so well vs falcon

I get what you mean, I have 4 link mains on the CO PR that I have to deal with.

But honestly just try and really go nuts with your speed, you'll be surprised on what changes.

 

[LavaLatte]

On a similiar topic, Oracle , how does Charizard best deal with Lucas in the neutral game? Mostly crossup nairs/dairs are an issue.

 

[-Key-]

I started playing around with Charizard about a week or two ago, and I decided to give him a try at a tournament a couple days ago. I still have a ton of work to do, and while I have some ideas about what to focus on, I'd appreciate any suggestions you guys might have. Fresh eyes and all that, you know?

Thanks!

 

[JOE!]

Hm, well first thing is that against all non-boomerang projectiles, Down B can just let you jump over them with ease. That could have helped tremendously vs this particular spammy falco, then approach with Nairs or Bairs (Bair hits under you!)

From there, a particular note about Space Animals is that they have absolutely NO answer to Flamethrower if you are at a ledge and they're recovering, seriously: it's free. The flames force them to recovery from a risky position that you can then react to accordingly.

 

[BluntedMask]

If you have a person constantly camping you with projectiles, learning wavedash OOS is honestly one of your best options.

You'll be able to cover ground while being safe at the same time.

 

[Heroofhatz]

So, as you can see from this vid, this guy had enough badges to train my ***, as well as everyone else at SG except KDJ in Grands.

But, it occurred to me that this was the 1st time I've fought a falcon in tourney, you guys have anything you can say to pick this apart? Definitely a ton of mistakes I've made / places where I probably could've been more patient or gimped him.

I've got one match against a falcon, it isn't that good if I'm honest, but maybe you can get something from it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqrqg8i9vzA

Also be sure to ask Yomi about it, since I've seen him play some sweet falcons and do really well against them

 

[-Key-]

Hm, well first thing is that against all non-boomerang projectiles, Down B can just let you jump over them with ease. That could have helped tremendously vs this particular spammy falco, then approach with Nairs or Bairs (Bair hits under you!)

From there, a particular note about Space Animals is that they have absolutely NO answer to Flamethrower if you are at a ledge and they're recovering, seriously: it's free. The flames force them to recovery from a risky position that you can then react to accordingly.

When I first watched this set back, I had a huge "duh" moment when I realized that Flamethrower would've made things SO much easier. I will remember to use that and Fly more in the future. Thanks!

If you have a person constantly camping you with projectiles, learning wavedash OOS is honestly one of your best options.

You'll be able to cover ground while being safe at the same time.

This is something I will definitely be working on, thanks for the suggestion.