Wasting Time by pushing towards Failure

[EPsilon933]

Exactly, so your character choice is a big deal.

*relieved*

I'm glad I've got at least 1 person who understand what I'm trying to say

 

[BSP]

I understood that skill was the most important factor from the beginning, but character choice is right next to it.

 

[EPsilon933]

I understood that skill was the most important factor from the beginning, but character choice is right next to it.

ye s

 

[Claire Diviner]

I'm glad I've got at least 1 person who understand what I'm trying to say

That's basically the main point of this thread. You can be skilled all you want with a low tier character, but if you go against a high tier character played by someone with equal skill and knowledge of the MU, then the scales will be tipped in the high tier character's favor regardless.

 

[ChKn]

Oh, -1/3 wifi lag is a world of difference. Trust me on this. Even your opponents will love you for it. And if your opponent has one too, that's 2/3 of the lag gone. That's like playing at only 1/3 of the lag!

I'd highly suggest this. Makes me much happier when I use my Marth online lol.

Before I became more involved in the Smash scene from late 2009-2011, I played on Wifi quite a bit, and it's ultimately helped me. I try to play online like I play offline. That way, whenever I play someone and ask for critique, I can get input (from offline players) that will help me out in the long run. You can probably do the same thing with other offline players who main whatever character you main.

 

[MuraRengan]

Conventionally speaking, competitive smash isn't some world where effort and skill can naturally overcome character flaws. If your favorite characters can't the job done for you, then it's time for you to reconsider why it is you want to play this game. If your main goal is to be a "competitive threat" then you have no business holding on to characters that just aren't viable. The only people who play low tiers are people who ultimately aren't interested in winning, or people who still think that their character can win.

If you love your characters so much and you just don't want to resort to using high tiers, then maybe this isn't the right game for you to have competitive aspirations in. Once you've decided that your favorite characters can't win, you've got 3 options:

1. Quit
2. Go to tournaments for fun
3. Pick better characters.

 

[DakotaBonez]

I just can't take the guy above me seriously whenever I look at his avatar XD
Why is that charmander so dapper!?!

 

[BSP]

Conventionally speaking, competitive smash isn't some world where effort and skill can naturally overcome character flaws. If your favorite characters can't the job done for you, then it's time for you to reconsider why it is you want to play this game. If your main goal is to be a "competitive threat" then you have no business holding on to characters that just aren't viable. The only people who play low tiers are people who ultimately aren't interested in winning, or people who still think that their character can win.

If you love your characters so much and you just don't want to resort to using high tiers, then maybe this isn't the right game for you to have competitive aspirations in. Once you've decided that your favorite characters can't win, you've got 3 options:

1. Quit
2. Go to tournaments for fun
3. Pick better characters.

Thanks for your thoughts Mura and I'm going with option 3. No more feeling bad for myself, I'm going to do something about it.

 

[Exceladon City]

Yes, it is a waste. I've improved with characters that will fail in the end. If I go to any notable tournament, all it's going to take to knock me out is a decent or . Heck, even if you pocketed these two, you'd still give me trouble.




That's because people aren't the ones who are expending the effort to eventually lose in the end.







Actually, now that I think about, starting with someone else would put me 4 years behind everyone else....




Skill is the primary factor, yes, but your character selection starts taking a toll on you when you start playing against those who are just as skilled as you are.

I know where you're coming from. I've switched mains several times and half the time I end up going back to or . Those are the 2 I'm most comfortable with. Yes, I have a and but neither of them do me too much good except in dittos. I've figured that after 4.5 years of playing this game that if I'm not winning or atleast placing in SOMETHING that I'm just playing it for the fun of it.

Also, you shouldn't be losing to pocket and pocket unless that person is on 2nd status with them. Pocket MK is free for Sonic and pocket D3 is free for Luigi.

 

[BSP]

Youre right, pocket is an underestimate. I should have said second.



Even pocket MK is free for Luigi. It's so easy to get frustrated, and that's digging your own grave vs.

 

[Brawlman1000]

AHHHHH! I had a nice long meaningful post that I was about to post here and as soon as I was about to press "Submit Reply" my internet connection died! FML

 

[Claire Diviner]

AHHHHH! I had a nice long meaningful post that I was about to post here and as soon as I was about to press "Submit Reply" my internet connection died! FML

Although hard to do, it's sometimes good to copy everything to type, just in case something like that does happen. Sucks to hear it happened to you.

 

[Brawlman1000]

Although hard to do, it's sometimes good to copy everything to type, just in case something like that does happen. Sucks to hear it happened to you.

Yeah, I'll make sure to do that from now on. I'll probably post it again tonight or tomorrow or whenever I've got more free time.

 

[Luco]

Well yes, if you really want to win then the better option is to pick a high tier character. This is obvious. However (and this is coming from a Lucas main with a Ness secondary), I said this in another thread and i'll say it here, but I find you're more respected if you manage to break (most) barriers with your character and go on to win tournaments. You are definitely respected if you win with a HT char but winning with a LT char really shines through because it shows about you and your nature and your determination.

At the same time, the sad, sad truth is, character heroes are just that: Heroes. They don't come along very often and most people can never even dream of being one. It takes a combination of effort and natural talent that many just can't hold on to, because of the sentiments that you're talking about now. Not to say that what you are feeling is bad but I can't help feeling that character heroes have found a way around that mindset and just kept on going. In any case, if we can't be a character hero then yes, your best option may be to switch to a high tier.

However, and this comes to the heart of what I want to say, NO time playing is wasted time. NO time. Believe me. You can play Ganondorf for years on end and it's not wasted time. Why? Because Low Tiers don't stop you from getting better at the game (bad misconception). If anything they will push you further than the high tier. I don't know many high tier players so I cannot speak for them but i'd say that going from a low tier to a high tier... You'll notice the difference in placing. Your efforts from using a Low Tier will transcend when you use the high tier. Take someone like Game and Watch. He isn't too bad but if you drop him after using him for ages and go to someone like Falco, your mindgame skills which you developed using G&W will just go nuts in a character that has more options.

What i'm saying is, the only mindset that you have here that I disagree with is that the time you spend playing these low tiers is a waste of time (even competitively). No time is wasted time because you are getting better all the time and that is something that communicates across all tiers.

Anyway, that's my long and boring rant.

 

[Pachinkosam]

I go to tournaments for fun but to win hey everybody has a hobby.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm probably one of the first people who flat-out disagrees with you in this thread, BSP. I'm going to relay my personal experiences as a competitive multi-low tier and Meta Knight main who went through something similar to what you did.

[collapse='History']I joined the competitive scene to play Melee (and that's what I did for a few months) but, upon growing tired of my state's inactive Melee scene, I decided to play Brawl competitively instead.

I still entered tourneys before taking Brawl seriously though: Mostly entering tourneys with G&W and Jigglypuff (characters I used when I was a noob), not really caring if I won or lost.

Anyway, I decided to be a low tier hero and stick to my guns with Jigglypuff. This was before I really understood the theory behind Smash as well as I do now - My mentality was to attack in my opponent's direction with moves that are supposed to be good - and getting punished by characters with superior options and more intelligent players frustrated me enough to drop Jigglypuff.

After that I went through a lot of low tiers (Samus, Mario, Sheik, DK... Probably some others). I'd tell myself and others that I chose low tiers because I found top tiers boring - I don't really know if that was true in retrospect, I might've just been picking them to give myself an excuse for losing. I did use some top tiers as well, but I still didn't "get" the theory and the more experienced players still creamed me.

I'm not sure how well you know me, but I've always been a part of the "stage ragers". Not sure what got me in with that group in the first place, but there you have it. Anyway, around the period where MK ledge-grab limits were being considered I wanted to try and get one in place at our locals so it wouldn't be abused at a high-stakes tournament. Opting to prove my point through actions rather than words, I used Meta Knight for the first time.

At my first tournament using MK; I came 2nd by planking. At my next, I came 1st; and our locals got a LGL Between these two tournies I played a lot of friendlies as well, and I did learn the basics of MK as well.

For the next year I mained Meta Knight and I finally saw improvement. I think it was a combination of my character choice and just generally improving, actually... A better way to put it would be that using a better character taught me how to improve. I started to learn the theory; and at that point I could go back to some of my old low tier mains and use them in friendlies

I realized, though, that these low tiers simply don't have enough options to compete, just like you. Through-out this period I kept improving my Puff on the side, but she still felt unviable to me.

Right before MK's ban I believe my mind-set was almost at its peak with him. I understood all of the theory when I played, and the only improvements I've had since then have been physical (learning new tactics, not getting as frustrated, etc...). After MK's ban I initially used non-low tiers - ICs, G&W and Pit, but I continued with Puff in friendlies.

At BAM2K11 (a major and the last tourney I attended before MK's ban) I found that I had a talent for coaching. I helped out several of the people in my state and this is when I first started analyzing my matches.[/collapse]
I found that my Jigglypuff was actually doing better in friendlies and money matches than my mains were - So I made the switch to using Puff in tourneys.

For the first time I've been taking her seriously - and it's paying off. I can't speak for other low tier mains but when I play as Puff... It doesn't feel like I'm trying to overcome my character's weaknesses - It just feels the same as if I was playing as Meta Knight.

I've watched and analysed videos of my Puff and in every case I've been able to tell myself: "Alright, I could've done x and gotten away with it". Maybe I couldn't have done x at that very second, but I could've done it beforehand to never get into that situation.

Brawl gives every character too many options for a match-up to be truly unwinnable; and you can always be the better player.

Anyway, some more specific things:
-Your time using low tiers is certainly not wasted. Brawl can be broken into 3 elements:
1. Game Knowledge
2. Reading Comprehension
3. Technical Ability

You'll obviously have to learn this new character, but given all the groundwork that has been done by other players (and your experience with the game's engine, as well as your experience watching or playing against your new character) this shouldn't be too hard.

Your reading comprehension (mind-games) carry over - You might need to find some new applications, but once you learn the ins and outs of your new character it'll happen straight away.

Technical ability (and this doesn't just mean the hard technical things, just general character control) mostly carries over - Just gotta get used to the physics of your new character and get consistent with the things you need to know how to do (not hard, this ain't Melee).

-Just because someone hasn't improved for a long time, does not necessarily make it the character's fault. There is a Snake main in my state who has been playing since the game's release and is still terrible. Many, many competitive players fall under this category.

 

[BSP]

I find you're more respected if you manage to break (most) barriers with your character and go on to win tournaments. You are definitely respected if you win with a HT char but winning with a LT char really shines through because it shows about you and your nature and your determination.

Maybe, but imo, you can get the same amount of respect and you'd actually get $$$ if you just push your high tier to the max and place consistently. The that places well once in a while is cool, but I think I'd be on the lookout for the that takes top 2 every tournament. They'd both be respected, but the player is considered a threat and top player. And which one of them will do well at a regional or bigger?

Not to say that what you are feeling is bad but I can't help feeling that character heroes have found a way around that mindset and just kept on going.

This applies to the earlier portion of Brawl's metagame, but not now as I have pointed out. The fact that the character heroes have switched off shows that they too understand that their character can't compete. You just can't find a way around limitations if the character isn't capable.

However, and this comes to the heart of what I want to say, NO time playing is wasted time. NO time. Believe me. You can play Ganondorf for years on end and it's not wasted time. Why? Because Low Tiers don't stop you from getting better at the game (bad misconception). If anything they will push you further than the high tier. I don't know many high tier players so I cannot speak for them but i'd say that going from a low tier to a high tier... You'll notice the difference in placing. Your efforts from using a Low Tier will transcend when you use the high tier. Take someone like Game and Watch. He isn't too bad but if you drop him after using him for ages and go to someone like Falco, your mindgame skills which you developed using G&W will just go nuts in a character that has more options.

Maybe it's not wasted, but it's definitely inefficient. All of that time put into Ganon could have been put into a character that will actually get you somewhere. IDK, I may just be a negative nelly on this one, but it's really demoralizing to put a lot of time into a character, and then just encounter a MU that forces you to switch. I just think "OK, I'm going to this tournament, and I'm going to do great....unless I meet X character in bracket". You know before you even enter that your main character will be rendered useless at some point. What's the point of even bothering with the character to begin with?

What i'm saying is, the only mindset that you have here that I disagree with is that the time you spend playing these low tiers is a waste of time (even competitively). No time is wasted time because you are getting better all the time and that is something that communicates across all tiers.

Like I said, I may just be a negative player, but when and just can't win against a that knows the MU, I feel like I wasted my time, especially considering how popular the character is. Just think if I would have put that towards a good character.

For the first time I've been taking her seriously - and it's paying off. I can't speak for other low tier mains but when I play as Puff... It doesn't feel like I'm trying to overcome my character's weaknesses - It just feels the same as if I was playing as Meta Knight.

You can't. When I pick any high tier, even just to goof around, I can really feel how limited and are.

Brawl gives every character too many options for a match-up to be truly unwinnable; and you can always be the better player.

This is true on paper, but not in practice. If it was true in practice, the MU chart wouldn't have any -4's.

Show me or beating a top level that knows the MU. I firmly believe this MU is unwinnable at top level play. Is there any current evidence to prove me wrong? Heck, you probably can't even find the MU happening at top level because and never make it that far in bracket.

If I was wrong, I think Boss would still main and Big Lou would still main . I mean, is by far the hardest MU for both of them. If that's winnable, there's really no reason to switch is there?

Anyway, some more specific things:
-Your time using low tiers is certainly not wasted.

See my response to Luco on that one.

Just because someone hasn't improved for a long time, does not necessarily make it the character's fault. There is a Snake main in my state who has been playing since the game's release and is still terrible. Many, many competitive players fall under this category.

Yes, but it's clear that the low tiers have their limits and they will hold you back.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If I showed you videos of low tiers performing well in top level Melee, would that count?

 

[BSP]

I don't think I know melee well enough to be able to give a proper opinion on whatever you showed me.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Take solace in the knowledge that even a decade after the game's release, characters who were thought to be unviable like Young Link, Mewtwo and Yoshi performed impressively under the control of Armada, Taj and leffen respectively.

Low tiers often have some potential that takes a while to realize. I don't believe that Jigglypuff deserves to move up much in the tier list - I still think she is viable (with a secondary), however.

I know that theoretically by using a combination of bair, pound and grab she can cover every situation just fine - And when I look at players like Cosmo in Melee (who uses a low tier with similarly limited options and performs well against many good players) that it is possible in practice. The majority of her MUs are -2. I know that disadvantage can be overcome because mid tiers frequently do it against Meta Knight; I know that it is possible to just flat-out be better than your opponents because I saw Isai dominate the entire Smash 64 scene for years.

Everything I know about the game has showed me that I can compete with a low tier.

 

[BSP]

Take solace in the knowledge that even a decade after the game's release, characters who were thought to be unviable like Young Link, Mewtwo and Yoshi performed impressively under the control of Armada, Taj and leffen respectively.

Melee is a deeper than Brawl. Lcancelling, combos, and wavedashing are all universal options that help everyone out. Brawl isn't the same case. Do you think there's some undiscovered Low tier techs in brawl that will change anything?

How is going to get past and grab release problems?
How is going to get past all of top tier and ?
How is going to get past and ?

You see where I'm going? I highly doubt that there are some hidden fundamental techniques that are going to allow these characters to overcome these flaws.

And even then, viable is a stretch for the characters you mentioned. Where were they at Apex? No Young Links made bracket, and Armada only uses him to fight Jiggs. Mewtwo? I believe Taj is still considered the best right? He plays Marth too and I don't see him in the bracket either. Leffen has a Fox next to his name on the Apex results, and no other yoshi player or solo yoshi even made it out of pools. I could probably make a lot of things happen too if I had the experience and a next to my name alongside .

Low tiers often have some potential that takes a while to realize. I don't believe that Jigglypuff deserves to move up much in the tier list - I still think she is viable (with a secondary), however.

I talked about this above, but I don't think there's anything hidden with brawl. The low tiers in brawl just have fundamental problems.

Mario is viable with a secondary too .

I know that theoretically by using a combination of bair, pound and grab she can cover every situation just fine

And theoretically, Ganon can zero death any character except ICs once he lands one flame choke. There's theory, and then there's practice. If Jiggs could cover every situation in practice consistently, she wouldn't be bottom tier right now.

- And when I look at players like Cosmo in Melee (who uses a low tier with similarly limited options and performs well against many good players) that it is possible in practice.

As I said above, Melee is deeper and is not the same case as brawl. Even low tiers in melee have the universal tools (wavedash, Lcancel, combos).

I also didn't see Cosmo's name in Apex bracket. Who does he/she (idk) use?

The majority of her MUs are -2. I know that disadvantage can be overcome because mid tiers frequently do it against Meta Knight

Again, in theory yes, in practice, you've got your work cut out for you, and I don't think it'll be worth the effort tbh. Sonic's worst MUs are -2 and I still think there isn't a single situation in this game he can't handle, but we still don't see him taking top spots too often. (Exception is IMPULSE, but that was MK banned, and MK is one of Sonic's hardest -2s).

I know that it is possible to just flat-out be better than your opponents because I saw Isai dominate the entire Smash 64 scene for years.

64....let's not compare that game to brawl. Any character can zero death in that game given the proper hit at first. Isai isn't a strict low tier user either, which is what we're focusing on in this.

Everything I know about the game has showed me that I can compete with a low tier.

Grim, if you ever have the resources, go to Apex and place at least 17th in bracket with just Jigglypuff.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I wrote a big post before realizing I agree with you about low tiers in general.

I will travel to America as soon as I have the resources. I don't expect to place well - However, with the matches I'll have recorded I will be able to improve.

There is no peak.

That is what it really boils down to - it is all about being the better player and you can do that with any character. If you have reached a peak with your low tiers then it is your fault - you can always improve. That was the whole point of the Isai example (I dunno why you mentioned 0 to deaths), he was better than ALL his competition and anyone can do that.

I believe I can do that.

 

[BSP]

I disagree with the idea that you can always show you're the better player if you're using the bottom of the barrel, at least in brawl. The low tiers are have limitations that are going to stop you.

You can "improve" all you want, but you're not going to get past the fundamental weaknesses I mentioned because....you just can't, it's part of the character. If you could, no low tier heroes would have switched.

I mentioned the zero deaths because they really change the game for the bad characters in 64. Isai can do what he does in 64 with any character because all characters are dangerous in 64 once they land a hit. There is no character choice that limits Isai enough to the point where he can't outplay his opponent (which even then, I could argue that Link does since he lost to superboom even though he's better).

This is not the case in Brawl. There is no factor like that to make up for the low tier weaknesses. What's going to save Bowser from Dedede's infinites? Or from MK in general?

Edit:Look at how Isai takes this stock - that's why he can own the game even with low tiers. You can't do this in brawl, so it's not a fair comparison.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Bowser vs. D3 isn't really that bad, you know. :x

Something to ponder: Do you remember when MK vs. Olimar or ICs was considered -2 at best? Do you think those match-ups (which some now consider even) "became" better, overcoming their fundamental weaknesses, thanks to the effort of people who quit the character in question?

 

[BSP]

No, they became better because the players that didn't quit the character looked into the potential strengths of and .

Unlike low tiers, and had potential back then when the MUs were terrible for them. could always zero-death the entire cast with just one grab, and desync to make approaching extremely difficult for the opponent. They just didn't do it. 's is a little harder to see, but he has one of the best, if not the best ground game, an insane grab game, ways to get around gimps (potential with the whistle), and good KO power. When the MUs were tough, the and players could look into the potential the characters had and use it, aka develop the character.

The difference with low tiers is that they have no potential to get around bad MUs. Since you don't like the example, what is going to do to turn the MU around? He gets grabbed and that's his stock. How do you get around this? What does have to get around this? Or vs. ? If had the potential to combat , Boss or Big Lou would have found it. Posts like this don't encourage me to keep trying either.

Edit: Wait, I see what you're saying. My point for this post is to say that and had ways to get around their fundamental flaws (separation and gimps for example), but the low tiers don't. How do I know this? The best of the best switched off.

Wait, what was I thinking? Bowser vs. D3 is that bad. D3 has a standing infinite, and a small step CG on him. Grab = death for bowser.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

BSP, you only know those characters have ways to get around their fundamental flaws because they already DID get around them. Go back in time and tell mains "Oh by the way, you guys are actually almost even with ".

Or imagine telling mains that they would eventually rise above on the tier list.

I say 's potential is largely in her ability to safely pressure shields with bair - which most of the current mains do not abuse and instead opt to go for riskier options - often leading to shielded dash attacks, etc...

I also believe that she has some potential in Rest - Being a frame 2 invincible KO move it could be used as a more situational whistle that has an advantage when it lands. People have been telling me that the move's risk is too high to use effectively, but I am starting to discover it's potential (last tournament I got a Rest on an Ftilting , he was completely shocked to be punished so hard just for missing one of 's fastest moves).

doesn't do too badly against because his side-b completely wrecks the majority of 's options. All you have to do is platform camp and only use it in situations where you won't get punished. The infinite is often dropped even by top level players, and isn't going to be dying until pretty high % unless gimped.

vs. is certainly winnable - www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tqdB2K_69I
By using PK Fire to retreat to the safety of the ledge while still applying pressure and using safe-on-shield aerials. I believe can employ a similar tactic in some of her difficult MUs.

The *current* best of the best might've switched off their low tier, but there is nothing to indicate they were "the one", for lack of a better word, to unlock that character's potential and pilot them to a higher spot on the tier list.

 

[Delta-cod]

BSP, you play Sonic. I firmly believe that Sonic has enough options to be a threat if you're good enough. It is doable, as long as your character isn't shut down by an extremely one-dimensional tactic.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I agree with Delta. Mario and Luigi, I can see them struggling... Sonic has a ****-ton of potential though.

 

[allshort17]

I don't know if anyone has said this, but it really isn't a waste of time to pick a bad character if you truly like a character. When you like a character, you just feel more inclined to improve more because you doing it for fun. It's fun to play Smash in general, but you know it most fun when you play who you want. If someone said you can only play Mario in Smash, I'd bet you'd and others would quit. But, the freedom of character choice makes you play and enjoy what you do. If you limit you character selection, you'll lose passion for what you do and in the long run will not improve in the game in general as fast as you would playing the character you want. Sure, you can have fun playing Falco and will want to improve at the start because you're exploring a new field, but you choose Sonic (and Mario and Luigi) for a reason. May it be for the playstyle, your connection with the character from other games, or the fact that you want to be a lower tier hero. You picked characters with playstyles you like and flaws you can deal with due to your personality. The higher tier may not fit your personally as much because none of them play like Sonic.

Just deal with the fact you picked characters that suck. You picked them because you liked them, so have fun with it. You don't even have to think about changing the Sonic metagame to prove that he doesn't deserve to be mid tier. Just keep experimenting, practicing, and have fun with your friends and you'll revolutionize it anyway when you become the next Espy/X. You'll probably make more money with a higher tiered character because you have a solid set of basics behind you. But, if you are going to put time into improving, why not just do it with the characters you want?

To truly answered you question, you have not wasted you time. You made friends, got better at sometime, had experiences you would never had, and gave your life some purpose for a while, right? Mission accomplished! If you in it for the money, the money for tournaments is just a bonus for the hard work you do. Let your job cover money for you and have fun playing a game.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

He is thinking of changing characters because having options is more fun than not having options.

 

[Delta-cod]

And that's a 100% legitimate reason to change characters.

 

[BSP]

BSP, you only know those characters have ways to get around their fundamental flaws because they already DID get around them. Go back in time and tell mains "Oh by the way, you guys are actually almost even with ".

Or imagine telling mains that they would eventually rise above on the tier list.

Ok, so you're getting at that I needed someone to show me their potential. I disagree. The SBR knew who had potential and who didn't from the get-go. Let's look at Brawl's first Tier List

V1’s low tier
Lucas, Ness, Mario, PT, Samus, Yoshi, Sonic, Jiggs, Ganon, Link, Falcon

V7’s Low tier
Lucas, Mario, Samus, Bowser, Falcon, Jiggs, Link, Zelda, Ganon

7/11 low tier characters from V1 are still low tier in V7

Ness, PT, Yoshi, and Sonic are the only ones who have left low tier after being put there initially. Interestingly enough, Ness, PT, and Yoshi are still right outside of low tier. So 10/11 were judged accurately from the beginning. Sonic is the only one who made significant movement.

Notice how your character examples started as mid tiers or higher. People could tell they had potential, so they weren't placed in low tier.

The only character that actually made significant movement was Sonic. Aside from him, no one has shifted that much. And even then, Sonic is fairly close to the tier directly above low tier, he's still not considered good, and he has stagnated as far as results go. I don't think potential is that hard to see, especially since the low tier list from v1 is still pretty accurate ( being the only character to move a lot). How long are you planning to wait for heroes?

I say 's potential is largely in her ability to safely pressure shields with bair - which most of the current mains do not abuse and instead opt to go for riskier options - often leading to shielded dash attacks, etc...

I also believe that she has some potential in Rest - Being a frame 2 invincible KO move it could be used as a more situational whistle that has an advantage when it lands. People have been telling me that the move's risk is too high to use effectively, but I am starting to discover it's potential (last tournament I got a Rest on an Ftilting , he was completely shocked to be punished so hard just for missing one of 's fastest moves).

Maybe Puff will be the next Sonic, maybe she won't. But even if she is (and the history of low tier does not favor this as I pointed out)...she won't move much...you said it yourself. If she had the tools to compete, she wouldn't have been placed in low tier to begin with. As I said, Tier List V1 only had one character significantly out of place as far as low tiers go, so I don't think it's that bad of a judge of potential.

doesn't do too badly against because his side-b completely wrecks the majority of 's options. All you have to do is platform camp and only use it in situations where you won't get punished. The infinite is often dropped even by top level players, and isn't going to be dying until pretty high % unless gimped.

The MU is -4. If what you said were true, I don't think anyone would have agreed to said -4.

Also, even if you drop the infinite, D3 can small step CG him.

vs. is certainly winnable - www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tqdB2K_69I
By using PK Fire to retreat to the safety of the ledge while still applying pressure and using safe-on-shield aerials. I believe can employ a similar tactic in some of her difficult MUs.

I never said it wasn't winnable, but since you brought it up, I noticed that K@d@j literally let him out of the death grab at some points, and kept approaching on YI with a lead. Regardless, this is just one instance. Show me getting past all of his fundamental problems with a good placing at a notable tournament.

The *current* best of the best might've switched off their low tier, but there is nothing to indicate they were "the one", for lack of a better word, to unlock that character's potential and pilot them to a higher spot on the tier list.

Hmm, maybe, but like I said with the Tier List V1, I think potential was mapped out fairly accurately from the get-go.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You think that every character's potential has been realized, I don't. That's all it comes down to.

 

[BSP]

BSP, you play Sonic. I firmly believe that Sonic has enough options to be a threat if you're good enough. It is doable, as long as your character isn't shut down by an extremely one-dimensional tactic.

Doable, but is it worth it?

I believe that Sonic can handle any situation in this game, but I also believe that constantly playing on a level to do this with him is realistically impossible. Tournaments are just too long, and there's just no point in constantly fighting the uphill battle with Sonic.

This is also ignoring the fact that people are starting to learn how to deal with Sonic's options. Hence, the falloff in his results post MLG Dallas.

I agree with Delta. Mario and Luigi, I can see them struggling... Sonic has a ****-ton of potential though.

Why is he stagnating then? Outside of MLG in 2010, he's seen no comparable results.

but you know it most fun when you play who you want.

Until you get to matchups where who you want to play as the most is just completely shut down.

If you limit you character selection, you'll lose passion for what you do

Losing due to character limitations also makes you lose passion for playing.

and in the long run will not improve in the game in general as fast as you would playing the character you want.

That depends on how much you value winning imo.

Sure, you can have fun playing Falco and will want to improve at the start because you're exploring a new field, but you choose Sonic (and Mario and Luigi) for a reason. May it be for the playstyle, your connection with the character from other games, or the fact that you want to be a lower tier hero. You picked characters with playstyles you like and flaws you can deal with due to your personality. The higher tier may not fit your personally as much because none of them play like Sonic.

As I'm sure you've figured out, I think there are flaws with these 3 that I can't deal with. When I lose because of them, it's just not fun anymore.

Just deal with the fact you picked characters that suck. You picked them because you liked them, so have fun with it.

Getting 2 and 3 stocked consistently by bad MUs isn't fun...

You don't even have to think about changing the Sonic metagame to prove that he doesn't deserve to be mid tier. Just keep experimenting, practicing, and have fun with your friends and you'll revolutionize it anyway when you become the next Espy/X. You'll probably make more money with a higher tiered character because you have a solid set of basics behind you. But, if you are going to put time into improving, why not just do it with the characters you want?

Because as I have said, I believe that the characters I use have reached their peaks and I can't push them any farther.

gave your life some purpose for a while, right?

I was never THAT desperate lol

You think that every character's potential has been realized, I don't. That's all it comes down to.

I took at least an hour to craft that response and I get a one liner in response.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I typed every post in this thread with an on-screen keyboard.

I don't know what else you want me to say - I hope you don't think the point of this discussion is to throw lots of words at the other person in some attempt to "win"

If you think putting in the effort to learn a sub-par character isn't worth it; why would you use Falco and not Meta Knight or Ice Climbers?

 

[BSP]

No MK for me because I'm terrible with him and just don't like how he feels. Trust me, if I could use MK, I would.

No ICs because every match would turn into a campfest, no matter what I did. Everyone would run away from me. Plus, I just like Falco more.

I wouldn't consider Falco sub-par. He definitely has to watch out for Pikachu and Ice Climbers, but he is definitely a capable and worthwhile character to learn. DEHF just won an E4U with solo Falco a few weeks ago, and he won Apex 2010 with him.

But now that we're talking about it, I don't think I'm even going to bother picking him up either. I'd be starting from square 1 as far as playing Falco goes, and I'd be 4 years behind everyone else, and I've got other things to deal with coming up.

 

[Luco]

Melee is a deeper than Brawl. Lcancelling, combos, and wavedashing are all universal options that help everyone out. Brawl isn't the same case. Do you think there's some undiscovered Low tier techs in brawl that will change anything?

How is going to get past and grab release problems?
How is going to get past all of top tier and ?
How is going to get past and ?

You see where I'm going? I highly doubt that there are some hidden fundamental techniques that are going to allow these characters to overcome these flaws.

And even then, viable is a stretch for the characters you mentioned. Where were they at Apex? No Young Links made bracket, and Armada only uses him to fight Jiggs. Mewtwo? I believe Taj is still considered the best right? He plays Marth too and I don't see him in the bracket either. Leffen has a Fox next to his name on the Apex results, and no other yoshi player or solo yoshi even made it out of pools. I could probably make a lot of things happen too if I had the experience and a next to my name alongside .



I talked about this above, but I don't think there's anything hidden with brawl. The low tiers in brawl just have fundamental problems.

Mario is viable with a secondary too .



And theoretically, Ganon can zero death any character except ICs once he lands one flame choke. There's theory, and then there's practice. If Jiggs could cover every situation in practice consistently, she wouldn't be bottom tier right now.



As I said above, Melee is deeper and is not the same case as brawl. Even low tiers in melee have the universal tools (wavedash, Lcancel, combos).

I also didn't see Cosmo's name in Apex bracket. Who does he/she (idk) use?



Again, in theory yes, in practice, you've got your work cut out for you, and I don't think it'll be worth the effort tbh. Sonic's worst MUs are -2 and I still think there isn't a single situation in this game he can't handle, but we still don't see him taking top spots too often. (Exception is IMPULSE, but that was MK banned, and MK is one of Sonic's hardest -2s).



64....let's not compare that game to brawl. Any character can zero death in that game given the proper hit at first. Isai isn't a strict low tier user either, which is what we're focusing on in this.



Grim, if you ever have the resources, go to Apex and place at least 17th in bracket with just Jigglypuff.

Well for the top part, Lucas does have a way around marth's chain grab that, surprisingly, carries on to his experience with DK and Dedede. Notice that in the last matchup table, Lucas now has no -4's. But yeah, i'll agree it's not a great option (actually there's two), but most Lucases simply... don't get grabbed. It's not actual character getting out of it easily so much as you don't get it in the first place. It's using mindgames to improve the matchup. The other option is if you manage to get an air release, you still get damage but if you do it right I think you can get out of the chain grab. Not sure about that one.

In any case, perhaps character heroes for mario or luigi have disappeared, but you're ignoring the fact that other characters still have their heroes. Right now, Lucas is at a prime with Mekos and FAE still going out and doing things with him. Ness still has people like FOW and shaky, etc etc, the list goes on. What i'm saying is, these people are still doing things, yes, even today.

Look, I said it before, if you want to change because you want to win tournaments, that's perfectly acceptable because you are right, low tiers don't do as well as high tiers. Again, this is obvious. What I am arguing is that thinking it's a waste of time to play lower tiers is stupid. The reason you're dismissing my points in the way you are is because you're seeing it from a perspective of wanting to win tournaments. I'm looking at it in other ways. Ways to enhance meta game, character variety, finding unknown potential, etc etc.

Look, we're all going to have to face the truth and the truth is that Brawl is unbalanced. In the end we can hate this as much as we want but it isn't going to go away. I find it easier to accept this and push on with lower tier characters as I want to see what their capabilities ARE. I'm a new player unlike yourself and I still have a wayyyyyy to go when it comes to learning about brawl. As it stands i'm never going to make it big in brawl (which is why i'm glad there's gonna be a smash 4!) but that doesn't stop me trying. You want results, that is fine, I want to push with Lucas, this is fine too. You've just gotta accept that people will try to play with their LT character hoping they can win money. It may look stupid, but I dunno, I'm probably an optimist on this one and would just love it if they won.

I think your best option isn't fully switching. As in, switch, but keep one or two of your old mains as pocket chars. Take Sonic and then you can use him when you feel like it. That way, you aren't 'abandoning' your older chars that you probably love ( ), you're just having them ready for friendlies and the like where you can still use them.

But in the end, it all comes down to the fact that whoever you start with, you'll be 4 years behind (you said it yourself). It's a luck of the draw who we originally pick in brawl and your best option may be either accepting your mains for who they are and pushing on regardless or accepting that your new main may never be as good as you want him to be and pushing on with him/her regardless.

P.S. I respect the diddy main if he consistently places.... perhaps it's not the right word. I'm not surprised at him when I WANT to be surprised. The Mario main who takes the top is going to earn my admiration, not just my respect.

 

[Delta-cod]

Doable, but is it worth it?

I believe that Sonic can handle any situation in this game, but I also believe that constantly playing on a level to do this with him is realistically impossible. Tournaments are just too long, and there's just no point in constantly fighting the uphill battle with Sonic.

This is also ignoring the fact that people are starting to learn how to deal with Sonic's options. Hence, the falloff in his results post MLG Dallas.

Depends on you as a person. Like you've been saying, you'd be far behind everyone else if you were to pick up another character at this point, and you already appear to have some issues with playing most of the current best characters because they don't "feel right". I understand this feeling, since I'm the same way with Yoshi. And since you feel so comfortable with Sonic, I don't see any reason why you shouldn't feel like pushing yourself to beat people with him, especially since you admit he has the options to handle anything.

You're going to be fighting an uphill battle regardless of the path you choose, at this point. Either stick with the mediocre character you're comfortable with, or pick a top tier, putting you behind everyone else in terms of character control and ability.

Personally, I don't think it'll take you that long to catch up if you pick a top tier. All that needs to be relearned is character control.

 

[BSP]

Yeah Delta, no to the sonic. It's not happening.

@Luco - sktar shows what I'm talking about. Mekos did outstanding and got 9th, but do you think people are going to consider Lucas a threat at nationals now? And the players that got top 4; they're going to be respected like I said, but they're also won $$$ and they're still considered the people to be on the lookout for.