Wasting Time by pushing towards Failure

[BSP]

Link to original post: [drupal=5275]Wasting Time by pushing towards Failure[/drupal]



Hey guys, it's me, BSP. I feel like ranting for a bit because I've been thinking over some things regarding competitive SSBB that have made me feel pretty crappy for the most part. So here goes:

I feel like I've wasted my time. Not by playing SSBB competitively, but how I've been playing it.

I've been using bad characters ever since I started playing the game. When I first picked it up, I decided to use Luigi. At the time, I found him fun to play and easy to use. As time went on, I eventually moved on to Mario, and then threw in a bit of Sonic too. Before I started going to tournaments, I effectively had a trio of my favorite 3 characters in the game and all was good.

The problems didn't start when I began going to tournaments either. At my first, I got ***** like everyone usually does. However, I didn't want to give up. I still had fun with the game, and I wanted to prove that my characters could stand a chance in a competitive environment. Looking back, I feel that I was pretty naive, but that's beside the point. The point is that I had inspiration and drive to improve.

So I began looking towards improving my game in any way possible. I tried to go to more tournaments, and I began playing a lot of wifi to get more character experience. Things were looking pretty good for a while...but then it started going downhill.

My negative feelings started surfacing when I went to my first out of state tournament: a Texas HOBO. Of course, I got destroyed, and once again, I viewed myself as the problem. I told myself that I should just keep striving with my characters, and I'd eventually get good enough to overcome their problems.

However, for some reason, this time when faced with failure, I began to doubt my characters. I think this was due to the play I saw at the HOBO. I was able to see a much higher level of play....a higher level that I knew my bad characters could not attain due to their flaws. I started to think about switching to a higher tier character because I knew that my characters could never reach the level necessary to compete at high level. From that point on, I've always had the inkling idea of dropping my bad characters completely, but I never fully went through with the idea though...at locals and smashfests, I continued to use Mario, Luigi, and Sonic despite my growing disdain and feeling of disappointment in myself and my choices.

So fastforward to now. How am I feeling now? I feel like all of the effort I put into my characters is ultimately for naught. I've stagnated in growth and improvement, and my mindset is in shambles. I know I've got to go through some serious changes at this point to get anywhere...and one of those changes is dropping my bad characters.

Now, I know that people are going to call me out on this, and probably say something along the lines of "It's not the character, it's you. You just haven't put enough time in yet." or "You just haven't had enough exposure to high level playing. Just stick to your guns." or even "You're wrong. X player has done this with your so called bad character. You're just bad."

I used to think these were all fair counters to my mindset and that I was the problem, but I've grown out of that phase. Here's what I think about each one now. I believe that putting more time, or any time at all for that matter, into a bad character is a waste of time if you want to be a threat in the competitive scene . This statement addresses the first two responses. For the last statement, it's correct. X player has done something with their character. Notice how I bolded "has"...I'll explain why.

Bad characters are called bad for a reason. They have limitations that keep them from competing at a high level. I know this, and many competitive players know this, so why would anyone ever encourage someone to put more time into a character that lacks the fundamental tools of success? Why would you push them towards ultimate failure? Let's look at my characters:

: ALL 3 OF them have a bad MU against the most popular and best character in SSBB (

) They all also have a variety of bad MUs scattered through the higher tiers. What's the point of learning or pushing these characters if they have significant problems that WILL stop anyone from winning anything in the end? I just can't understand this anymore. Every time I've brought up switching characters to others, they tell me that I just need to keep striving. Keep striving towards what? Bad MUs? A much harder time than anyone else? A lower chance to actually be successful?

When I bring up the "lower chance of success", people would often bring up the "Character Heroes", as I like to call them. They would always cite these players' successes to "prove" me wrong. Like I said, I believed this for a while, but now I've thought about it more. Let's look into my characters and their heroes.

- I consider Boss to be the main hero of Mario. He was widely considered the best one for quite some time. Does he still play Mario now? Maybe some, but I can't remember the last time I've seen Mario next to his name from tournament. And for the people that tell me to push my character, when's the last time you've seen Mario make top 17 at any notable tournament? Has he even made top 33? Striving with

won't get me anywhere.

- I consider Boss, YoshQ, and Big Lou to be the biggest Luigis...or they were. Boss rarely uses Luigi in singles anymore; Big Lou plays

now; YoshQ has always had a

ready. Why bother with Luigi either?

- Ah, he's the hardest. Espy and __X__ are the big 2. They've actually had great success. Does MLG Dallas ring a bell? The problem is that this success was so long ago, while the game was still young. The year that

took 5th and 6th at a major was the same year that Big Lou took 8th with

at MLG Columbus. Now let's look at Apex of 2012. Espy didn't make it out of pools (this is by no means a callout. Apex pools were very stacked. I'm just using it for the sake of this blog) and __X__ went 0-2 in bracket. Anyone with any knowledge of the game would laugh if you said Mario or Luigi were threats in the tournament. The game is changing and people are getting better. Those victories of the past hold little weight right now...and even when they did, again, why bother with

? MLG Dallas was his best showing and even then, he could only obtain 5th, which is great....but it's also still losing in the end. At the peak of his game, he got 5th...why bother with him now when people are getting better?

*Sigh*, so that's my mindset at the moment right now. I already know it's pretty terrible and self-defeatist....but am I really wrong? The game is moving, and I want to move along with it, but I don't think I can right now until I get out of this mindset...which I can't do until I just drop my bad characters.

Welp, I got that off of my chest. If you disagree with anything, please quote me and call me out, because I'd love to talk about this topic more. If you think I'll never get anywhere with this mindset, please tell me why. I'll even give a TL;DR

TL;DR - Playing a bad character is a waste of time if you want to be a threat in the competitive scene. You are ultimately setting yourself up for failure by doing this. "Keep striving" and "Look at X player" is losing weight as time goes on. Why do players tell low tier mains to stick to their character?

Edit: This applies to any game with good characters and bad characters too
Edit2: thanks to supermetroid44 for convincing me to write this

 

[Vinylic.]

Good stuff that you got it out since it's never good to keep it in.

Let's see here.......

It is not a waste of time when playing a bad character, It's a waste of time if you're bad or not good enough with a specific character.
And also, players who play "bad characters" will be amazing. The reason they lost is because they've been outplayed.

So if you want to win, don't just play, keep practicing your reads, learn stuff about your character, and outplay them instead of them outplaying you.

That way, You will avoid getting hit.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Honestly, doubting the characters themselves isn't anything new. I can tell you right now that it isn't your skill or supposed lack thereof preventing you from winning tourneys with the characters, it's the fact that the higher tiers have a more advanced metagame that give them clear advantages over your characters. Sure, people can strive to make their low tier character the best, but being the best with - say - Ganondorf, and facing the best Meta Knight will almost always result in the Ganondorf losing.

While the idea of a tier list is still to this day a controversial subject, it still exists for a reason as a means to measure just how well a character can potentially perform. While a tier list is never solid the first time, enough years of metagame development will we see a more accurate measurement of characters. R.O.B. and Diddy Kong are my favorite examples: R.O.B. was top tier during the first tier list, while Diddy was mid tier, ranking below Donkey Kong. Now, R.O.B. is in the mid tier level while Diddy is sitting at the top of the world with the likes of Olimar, Meta Knight, and even dethroning Snake.

At this point now, it's pretty clear that the current low and mid tiers are not going to fair as well in tournaments as the high and top tiers. It's okay to be the best Mario player and show it at a low or mid tier tournament, or maybe a Mario dittos match, but in actual competitive play, you'll benefit from using a higher tier character, even if it happens to be one you don't like for whatever reason. Some people chose Meta Knight because they genuinely like the character, while other choose him solely for his tier placement. In either case, they have viable cause to go with MK.

tl:dr: If you want to use a high tier character, go right ahead. Those who judge you for it are just haters, and maybe borderline ignoramuses. You can still keep your current lower tier characters for low tier tournaments, money matches and friendlies, but if you feel you need a higher tier character to actually win, then by all means, do what is necessary.

 

[DakotaBonez]

What's the point of playin if yer not gonna play as someone ya like?
This takes place before I had internet.
I was the best around and noone could keep me down when I played as Ganon!:ganonbrawl:
His heavy weight and hard hitting attacks were reminiscent of melee and I think that I hardly strayed from playing as him for 2 years. I won every school torunament, and everyone was heaping praise.
Being that these tournaments took place in the library,I started browsing sites such as this one during my free time between matches. I had never heard of the tier list before. Surely I thought someone as powerful as Ganon must be near the top. But as I scrolled down that list, and kept scrolling, I was shocked to see Ganon in a rank of his own. G! He was at the VERY BOTTOM!?! This couldn't be! But eventually as word of these local tournies grew so did the competitors. People who mained Meta-Knight began completely dominating me! I couldn't get an attack in edge-wise. If I tried pulling Ganon's Up B, they could simply button mash A to immediately damage me after releasing them. or duck under his high hitting attacks. And dominate the edge. I pulled a few unexpected punches on them as they attempted edge-hogging (at the top of ganon's up B he does that Hard Punch ya know that one?) I had never seen such dirty fighters. At our tournies edge hogging was seen as un-masculine and cheap. But I discovered on the net it was a staple at big tournaments. I had lost for the first time, much to everyone's dismay. I proceeded to only get 2nd's and 3rd's as an army of Lucas's and Metaknight's began gallavanting the scene. (Another tradition at our tournies was not to play as Lucas because he was a friend abandoning a-hole)
Everyone saw how good these characters were and began shifting towards playing as them. I had to start learning new tactics. I refused to edge-hog still because I don't roll like that. I learned every damn invincibility frame and used them to my advantage. I didn't rely so heavily on special moves and started using the A attacks more. Long story short I eventually did get better than those metaknight players. I learned how to grab the edge and use the invincibility frames upon climbing back up to my severe advantage. Yes I resorted in Side B suiciding alot (mostly on accident), but I mean hey, That's one of metaknights biggest weaknesses is Ganon's Side B prevents them from touching Ganon. You just gotta find whatever makes you're character special or odd and unique. Or just Spam Mario's cape. To this day I lose on and off against MetaKnight's, we get better off of eachother, I realize that eventually there is a mathematical limit to how good you can possibly be with a character. But Human's have abilities ya gotta take into consideration. Like psyching them out, ya gotta play with yo opponents mind. Do Something unexpected. Never use the same move twice! Keep em guessin!

 

[Vinylic.]

Ganon is amazing once you learn how to do some pretty rad techs and methods.

Despite him being the worst character in the list, he is certainly the most enjoyable.

 

[BSP]

What's the point of playin if yer not gonna play as someone ya like?
This takes place before I had internet.
I was the best around and noone could keep me down when I played as Ganon!:ganonbrawl:
His heavy weight and hard hitting attacks were reminiscent of melee and I think that I hardly strayed from playing as him for 2 years. I won every school torunament, and everyone was heaping praise.
Being that these tournaments took place in the library,I started browsing sites such as this one during my free time between matches. I had never heard of the tier list before. Surely I thought someone as powerful as Ganon must be near the top. But as I scrolled down that list, and kept scrolling, I was shocked to see Ganon in a rank of his own. G! He was at the VERY BOTTOM!?! This couldn't be! But eventually as word of these local tournies grew so did the competitors. People who mained Meta-Knight began completely dominating me! I couldn't get an attack in edge-wise. If I tried pulling Ganon's Up B, they could simply button mash A to immediately damage me after releasing them. or duck under his high hitting attacks. And dominate the edge. I pulled a few unexpected punches on them as they attempted edge-hogging (at the top of ganon's up B he does that Hard Punch ya know that one?) I had never seen such dirty fighters. At our tournies edge hogging was seen as un-masculine and cheap. But I discovered on the net it was a staple at big tournaments. I had lost for the first time, much to everyone's dismay. I proceeded to only get 2nd's and 3rd's as an army of Lucas's and Metaknight's began gallavanting the scene. (Another tradition at our tournies was not to play as Lucas because he was a friend abandoning a-hole)
Everyone saw how good these characters were and began shifting towards playing as them. I had to start learning new tactics. I refused to edge-hog still because I don't roll like that. I learned every damn invincibility frame and used them to my advantage. I didn't rely so heavily on special moves and started using the A attacks more. Long story short I eventually did get better than those metaknight players. I learned how to grab the edge and use the invincibility frames upon climbing back up to my severe advantage. Yes I resorted in Side B suiciding alot (mostly on accident), but I mean hey, That's one of metaknights biggest weaknesses is Ganon's Side B prevents them from touching Ganon. You just gotta find whatever makes you're character special or odd and unique. Or just Spam Mario's cape. To this day I lose on and off against MetaKnight's, we get better off of eachother, I realize that eventually there is a mathematical limit to how good you can possibly be with a character. But Human's have abilities ya gotta take into consideration. Like psyching them out, ya gotta play with yo opponents mind. Do Something unexpected. Never use the same move twice! Keep em guessin!

As I said in my OP, I had this same exact mindset. This works until you get to the upper area of the collective skill bracket for the entire competitive SSBB scene and you look at the history of how characters have been performing.

The truth of the matter is that bad characters run out of mixups. The better characters are going to figure out what you can do, and then use their capabilities to stop you. Trust me, it won't work forever.

Also, you really should edgehog...it helps a lot.

Ganon is amazing once you learn how to do some pretty rad techs and methods.

Despite him being the worst character in the list, he is certainly the most enjoyable.

That's debatable, and he is still bad once you learn all of his stuff. Would you consider any of the top 5 Ganons, assuming they go all ganon, to be a threat at any notable tournament?

@Sol Diviner - thanks for taking the time to comment

 

[ninjapenguin]

Great read BSP. If you really want to compete at a high level, I agree that putting your time into a more well-rounded character is the way to go. It seems that many people who use worse characters tend to do so only to prove that they can be used in a competitive environment, or because they have an emotional attachment to that character. It seems like you just care about tournament results, so I say go for it. Also, don't you have a pocket Falco?

On a side note, a lot of matches that I win are against players who are better than me, simply because I use Metaknight. I hate winning against someone who has clearly put more hours into the game, and is obviously better than me. They really deserve to win, it's just that they are using a character with so many flaws.

 

[Vinylic.]

That's debatable, and he is still bad once you learn all of his stuff. Would you consider any of the top 5 Ganons, assuming they go all ganon, to be a threat at any notable tournament?

If they're really skilled.

Fonz has won a tournament with ganon, so it's likely possible.

 

[BSP]

That's why I said notable tournament. Try Apex, Whobo, the Collision series, L.I.R.R., HOBO, E4s, stuff like that.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

On the note of thinking of wasted time, does anyone find the idea of getting into competitive play so late into the scene disheartening or just a plain bad idea?

 

[DakotaBonez]

Oh yeah well if ya just wanna win sure play as metaknight.
I thought you played the game for fun. T_T
Just kidding winning IS FUN!

 

[Okuser]

I guess the most important thing for you to do is figure out what your goals are.

If you really plan on trying to get out of pools at whobo4 and getting a decent placement you're probably going to want to practice the **** out of falco or w/e high tier that you've been practicing (even though whobo4 is MK banned and you dont have to worry about your sonic getting too *****)

If all you want to do is beat Jnig more consistantly you might as well stick with Sonic IMO, and just get better I guess. A mid tier character like sonic is decently capable of outplayng mid level and mid-low level players, that make up most of our region.

@Holder Yes, absolutely (if we're talking about large scale tournaments). I got into the scene about a year ago and am really only interested at this point in climbing the local PR.

 

[BSP]

On the note of thinking of wasted time, does anyone find the idea of getting into competitive play so late into the scene disheartening or just a plain bad idea?

It's disheartening because it feels like everyone else who joined at the beginning has an upper hand. I joined the brawl scene fairly late, and I just made my difficulties worse by using bad characters.

It's not a bad idea imo. If you put in enough work, you should be able to catch up. It'll be hard though.

Oh yeah well if ya just wanna win sure play as metaknight.
I thought you played the game for fun. T_T
Just kidding winning IS FUN!

isn't the only way to win. There is a selection of viable characters. That's not really the point of this though. I'm just discouraging trying to get anywhere with someone who's bad.

Fun comes to people in different ways, yes. However, getting 3 stocked or completely stomped isn't fun for most people.

 

[DakotaBonez]

Whatever I'm more hyped of seeing how this game plays at EVO this year.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uYnBcwd4Os
Preparing to get into THIS competitive scene XD Seems this game is looking to rival SkullGirls

 

[EPsilon933]

You've waste 0 effort by maining low tiers. You've made improvements on yourself. You know how to play with very restricted options

People love seeing low tier heroes. And more character variety is also fun

"The best solution to a problem is usually the easiest" -GLADOS. Keep using what it takes to win

Low tiers aren't fun because they can't do stuff

On the note of thinking of wasted time, does anyone find the idea of getting into competitive play so late into the scene disheartening or just a plain bad idea?

Can you imagine a newbie joining the Melee scene? I've been playing for 3.5 years and I'm still a middle placer. I know I'm improving. It's just that my competition is always improving at the same rate I am

Whatever I'm more hyped of seeing how this game plays at EVO this year.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uYnBcwd4Os
Preparing to get into THIS competitive scene XD Seems this game is looking to rival SkullGirls

Oh my Goddess, I'm hyped too

 

[BSP]

I guess the most important thing for you to do is figure out what your goals are.

I plan to at least try to attend larger scale tournaments, so being able to place decently wouldn't bad.

If you really plan on trying to get out of pools at whobo4 and getting a decent placement you're probably going to want to practice the **** out of falco or w/e high tier that you've been practicing (even though whobo4 is MK banned and you dont have to worry about your sonic getting too *****)

If I went to WHOBO 4, I probably would have to debate with myself to even enter the bracket. Im not even close to the amount of experience necessary with to do well, and there's not really anything I can do at the moment to work towards getting there. Unless we suddenly start having smashfests (that I can get to) a LOT more, that'd be a start.

And there's one thing about . and I'm second guessing picking him up too because of those 2. I mean, I already use a character with 4 -2 MUs, why bother picking up someone else with -2's as well? Falco is more than capable, but it's just that not running into and would be really important. I guess I could pull out for those 2 if I really had to, but imo I should just go for someone without any MUs bad enough to force a switch.

If all you want to do is beat Jnig more consistantly you might as well stick with Sonic IMO, and just get better I guess. A mid tier character like sonic is decently capable of outplayng mid level and mid-low level players, that make up most of our region.

I won't even be in La. for that much longer, so I'm thinking big. Our players are getting better too and they'll see through my mid/low tier shenanigans eventually.

and our state you mean. Our region would include AL, FL, NC, SC, and more.

 

[Claire Diviner]

On the note of thinking of wasted time, does anyone find the idea of getting into competitive play so late into the scene disheartening or just a plain bad idea?

It is disheartening, and I have made that mistake, though not really by choice more so than the fact I live in Springfield, MA, where I know no one who plays at a serious competitive level that lives near me, and my lack of transportation. I - and hopefully others - won't make that same mistake with Smash 4.

 

[EPsilon933]

Didn't the first 6 month's of Brawl's life have floods of new tournament players?

 

[Jam Stunna]

I agree with Okuser. It really depends on what your goals are. It sounds like you want to win, and the best way to accomplish that goal is to find the strongest character that you enjoy. Smash has very rigidly defined tiers, and a Mario, Sonic or Luigi is never going to win a major OOS tournament.

Fans may like low tier heroes, but they like winners more.

 

[Marc]

If you want to do better in tournaments, picking up better characters never hurts. Besides playing mid/low tiers, I want to point out that you spread yourself thin by maintaining three mains. Unless you're already good or have a lot of time to devote to the game, it's best to have a strong main that can more or less deal with everything and a secondary for matchups that are difficult for you. You could even keep one of your current characters on (Luigi for example has some surprisingly decent matchups with several top tiers) and I don't think all your time has been wasted in terms of learning and enjoyment.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Yeah, I have no transportation (unless I leech off of someone), and no one competitive in Alabama lives near me. Not to mention, the online on Brawl is awful for helping my skill get better, so I was never able to take the game seriously, even when I used to play it nonstop during the time it first came out. As a result, any tournament that I can drop into at like anime conventions that my friends and brother go to, I do well, and people enjoy my Olimar prowess, but from lack of playing and technical understanding, I will most certainly not win, so I simply see how close I can get. As Sol hopes, I intend to to try harder with Smash 4, hoping for better online and having better transportation.

 

[EPsilon933]

If you want to do better in tournaments, picking up better characters never hurts. Besides playing mid/low tiers, I want to point out that you spread yourself thin by maintaining three mains. Unless you're already good or have a lot of time to devote to the game, it's best to have a strong main that can more or less deal with everything and a secondary for matchups that are difficult for you. You could even keep one of your current characters on (Luigi for example has some surprisingly decent matchups with several top tiers) and I don't think all your time has been wasted in terms of learning and enjoyment.

I'd say you should devote all your efforts into 1 character and perfect it rather than having multiple, split efforted characters. You can only play 1 character at a time and you're only as good as your highest ciling

online on Brawl is awful for helping my skill get better

Do you play with a LAN adapter? Online Brawlers need to have them. They cut out like 1/3 of the lag. And of course your opponents should have some too to help cut out some more lag. The Wii's wifi card is terrible

 

[BSP]

I agree with Okuser. It really depends on what your goals are. It sounds like you want to win, and the best way to accomplish that goal is to find the strongest character that you enjoy. Smash has very rigidly defined tiers, and a Mario, Sonic or Luigi is never going to win a major OOS tournament.

Fans may like low tier heroes, but they like winners more.

Yeah :\

Didn't the first 6 month's of Brawl's life have floods of new tournament players?

Not sure. My guess would be yes though.

If you want to do better in tournaments, picking up better characters never hurts. Besides playing mid/low tiers, I want to point out that you spread yourself thin by maintaining three mains. Unless you're already good or have a lot of time to devote to the game, it's best to have a strong main that can more or less deal with everything and a secondary for matchups that are difficult for you. You could even keep one of your current characters on (Luigi for example has some surprisingly decent matchups with several top tiers) and I don't think all your time has been wasted in terms of learning and enjoyment.

I've been thinking about using 3 people for a while and I agree, that makes you spread yourself too thin. It won't happen again.

This has been a learning experience considering that Brawl is the first game I played competitively.

Yeah, I have no transportation (unless I leech off of someone), and no one competitive in Alabama lives near me. Not to mention, the online on Brawl is awful for helping my skill get better, so I was never able to take the game seriously, even when I used to play it nonstop during the time it first came out. As a result, any tournament that I can drop into at like anime conventions that my friends and brother go to, I do well, and people enjoy my Olimar prowess, but from lack of playing and technical understanding, I will most certainly not win, so I simply see how close I can get. As Sol hopes, I intend to to try harder with Smash 4, hoping for better online and having better transportation.

I hope that Smash 4's online isn't laughable and that you can get out for tournaments.

I'd say you should devote all your efforts into 1 character and perfect it rather than having multiple, split efforted characters. You can only play 1 character at a time and you're only as good as your highest ceiling

As I said to Marc, I agree with this, and I'll consider it for Smash 4.

I don't play wifi with a lan adapter, but if it only cuts about 1/3 of the lag, I'd still say take it with a grain of salt. Timing for some things is changed drastically on wifi, IE teching 's Dthrow.

 

[EPsilon933]

Oh, -1/3 wifi lag is a world of difference. Trust me on this. Even your opponents will love you for it. And if your opponent has one too, that's 2/3 of the lag gone. That's like playing at only 1/3 of the lag!

 

[Vinylic.]

It all depends on what you put stock into. If you want people to fear you and want to win, you may be someone who puts a lot of value into an image or status (though there are obviously exceptions). I've found that most LT/MT mains just love their character and feel alike to me, in that which validation comes from a personal assessment of performance given underwhelming options rather than the assessment of another. I think if a person lacks the faith to succeed to a level that they're content with as a LT/MT, then it's not the character that's the problem, rather, a fundamental weakness in one's attitude.

Putting this up because Verm has the best points.

 

[BSP]

Well, I would believe the last statement if:

Out of the 2 of the best players, 1 dropped the character for the most part, and the other rarely enters singles for the most part and has seconds as well.

has never been a threat in a notable tournament

's biggest success wasn't 2 years ago. Meek did get 13th at Impulse the other day, but the tournament was MK banned, and even then, Meek seconds MK.

 

[EPsilon933]

I think Verm's saying that the player behind the character needs to have the determination to win

 

[Jam Stunna]

Putting this up because Verm has the best points.

I strongly disagree with what you quoted. The desire to win does not necessarily have anything to do with image or status. As a tournament player, the only thing that matters is wins and loses, regardless of who you main. It becomes exceedingly more difficult (and I would say impossible) to get those wins with low tiers. There are real shortcomings that low tier characters have, and no amount of hard work, mindgames or wishful thinking will make them manageable.

I know people sneeze at sports analogies where Smash is concerned, but playing a low tier is alot like being on the wrong side of a hockey power play, except you're playing the entire game one man short.

If Vermanubis's level of contentment is exceeding the expectations that have been set for his character, then that works for him. BSP has expressed a desire to win, and that will not happen with his current characters.

 

[BSP]

I think Verm's saying that the player behind the character needs to have the determination to win

You can have the determination, but at the end of the day, what your character can and can't do will still play a significant role in your success.

 

[EPsilon933]

You can have the determination, but at the end of the day, what your character can and can't do will still play a significant role in your success.

Skill is the primary factor. Never forget that

Also, never be satisfied. It extinguishes the fire to win/improve

 

[Jam Stunna]

Skill is the primary factor. Never forget that

A player's skill can be severely undermined by their character. It doesn't matter how good you are if your character lacks the tools to win.

 

[EPsilon933]

What's worse: A know nothing player playing Meta Knight or Vermanubis playing Ganondorf?

 

[Jam Stunna]

I reject that dichotomy out of hand on the grounds that it has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

 

[EPsilon933]

I reject that dichotomy out of hand on the grounds that it has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

I'm talking about the order of importance between the 2

 

[BSP]

You've waste 0 effort by maining low tiers. You've made improvements on yourself. You know how to play with very restricted options

Yes, it is a waste. I've improved with characters that will fail in the end. If I go to any notable tournament, all it's going to take to knock me out is a decent or . Heck, even if you pocketed these two, you'd still give me trouble.

People love seeing low tier heroes. And more character variety is also fun

That's because people aren't the ones who are expending the effort to eventually lose in the end.

Can you imagine a newbie joining the Melee scene? I've been playing for 3.5 years and I'm still a middle placer. I know I'm improving. It's just that my competition is always improving at the same rate I am

On the note of thinking of wasted time, does anyone find the idea of getting into competitive play so late into the scene disheartening or just a plain bad idea?

Actually, now that I think about, starting with someone else would put me 4 years behind everyone else....

What's worse: A know nothing player playing Meta Knight or Vermanubis playing Ganondorf?

Skill is the primary factor, yes, but your character selection starts taking a toll on you when you start playing against those who are just as skilled as you are.

 

[Jam Stunna]

I'm talking about the order of importance between the 2

Once again, I reject that very notion. We don't hold tournaments with no items, double elimination, double blind picks, counterpicks and stage-banning to determine importance. We do so to accurately determine winners and losers.

 

[EPsilon933]

The winner of Verm vs hypothetical noob would be Verm

 

[BSP]

Of course

But how about Verm vs. M2K? Verm vs Gnes? Verm vs. Vinnie? Verm vs Ed?

>_>

 

[EPsilon933]

Of course

But how about Verm vs. M2K? Verm vs Gnes? Verm vs. Vinnie? Verm vs Ed?

>_>

I'm talking about know-nothing noob playing Meta Knight vs know-everything expert playing Ganondorf

Skill > character in terms of order of importance

When skills are even (enough), then character choice determines most of the possible outcome. At tournaments, lots of players will have evenly enough matched skill

 

[BSP]

Exactly, so your character choice is a big deal.