Waluigi - Everyone Else Cheated! (Assist Trophy Confirmed)

[Pazzo.]

I'm reviving the thread with sigs and WAAAA.

Spoiler

*Stifles laughter*

That's funny....

 

[Deleted member]

Waa.
I still support Waluigi, but I'm becoming more pessimistic about him with every opportunity to expand his roles has been wasted so far (Dark Moon, Game & Wario). Still hoping Dream Team will have some WAA action, given that it takes place in Luigi's subconscious.

The only way I can see Waluigi at this point otherwise is if Sakurai decided to make him an "honorary" WarioWare character for the sake of keeping him with Wario.

 

[volbound1700]

It seems like Nintendo is content to leave Waluigi as a party character like Daisy. It stinks because I wish the Wario Bros and Daisy could appear in more mainstream Mario games. They could add some flavor to the series. Perhaps have Wario/Waluigi as main villain for once instead of Bowser. The best fit for them would be in a Paper Mario game.

 

[Starcutter]

 

[Holder of the Heel]

After watching this video, I reflected more on things that I kind of just instinctively assumed about Mario, Luigi, Wario, and Waluigi. Listening to Charles talk about what its like doing the voice for each one, I started thinking about what the characters really embody in dimension. Mario being the plumber who is happy and enthusiastic about the challenges he faces. Luigi who is very afraid but because he has fear he also has bravery too. Wario with his grumpy antics that end up being silly. Waluigi with his bitterness and, the implication of bitterness, sadness. All of these conveyed by the way they make sounds and talk. And when he talked about how you should express yourself it's like, to me, saying express your "Woo hoo!"s, and your "WhoOOooOOoaaa!"s, and your "Waaah!"s and your "Wraaah!"s.

Thinking on that warms me to the idea of having Waluigi despite him being used (I always say he should be in so he can start being put in games!) We need our "Wraaah!"s too you know! Just like in life.

 

[Hero_of_T1me_1997]

WAH WAH WAH WAH

Waluigi is chill as hell but has no business in a smash bruzzahs game

 

[Bassoonist]

I was really harsh on Waluigi back in the Brawl speculation days, but now I'm feeling a bit sorry for the guy. I still don't think he really has a chance here, but after he didn't make it into Mario Kart 7, and then his fandom got teased by adding Waluigi's Pinball anyway, just made me soften toward him, I guess.

I mean, he didn't even make it into a Mario spinoff series, which had always had him since he was created... And then Queen Bee from Super Mario Galaxy gets in over him. Ouch. Maybe now I want to see him become a canon character. Shoot me, I don't care.

 

[RavenKingSage]

I would like to shake your hand for making this thread, but I'm afraid I have to tell you that Waluigi is a bad choice for SSB4.

First of all, he has no real importance to the Mario franchise. Whereas all Mario characters in Smash so far (except Dr. Mario, who was removed for being a terrible idea) have had platforming appearances and have been in main series games, Waluigi was made for a sports game and has never ventured outside of this realm. Because his competition (Jr. and Toad) has made all kinds of appearances in both main and side games, Waluigi's importance is made immediately questionable.

On top of this, he's not even a main character in the spin-offs. It's still Mario Kart, Mario Party, and Mario Tennis. Super Smash Bros. is a game featuring Nintendo's all-stars, not filler content.

Second of all, his popularity issues. Whereas some people love him (and even then, most people only formed this attitude because of that really annoying BitF joke), most people hate him.

I mentioned earlier that he's never made a main series appearance. That in itself is not his biggest problem, but his biggest problem is why that is so. Think about it. WarioWare was created soon after his conception. While Waluigi's personality and relation to Wario would make him an ideal addition to WarioWare and Wario Land games, he's never been in one. Wario Land Shake It could've used co-op multiplayer. Why didn't Waluigi appear in that game to make it so? In Super Mario 64 DS, the fourth character could've been Waluigi, but it was Yoshi instead. So where am I going with this?

My point is that because he's a heavily criticized Nintendo character, Nintendo has left him out of anything other than Mario spin-offs. Nintendo is not deaf, blind, and dumb. They are well aware that Waluigi is a hated character. While he's certainly more popular now than he was a decade ago (and only because of BitF), Nintendo still won't put him in an important role. The most recent example would be Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon. He's Luigi's supposed rival and he's creepy. Why not put him in that game? Because his inclusion in anything other than a spin-off would outrage most Nintendo fans.

As things stand, Waluigi is a bad choice for SSB4. He's relegated to spin-offs and isn't even the main character of those. He has a cult but is hated by the general Nintendo fanbase. He's not an all-star. I find it sad that anyone talks of his "potential" when he doesn't have it. They've been sitting on this character for over a decade. Unless he becomes less hated and more popular, they won't tap into his "potential."

So that's my argument. Please don't respond unless you have an intelligent argument. And if your reply contains the words "Too bad, Waluigi Time," I will ignore you.

 

[Deleted member]

I would like to shake your hand for making this thread, but I'm afraid I have to tell you that Waluigi is a bad choice for SSB4.

This ought to be interesting. Been a while since I had to defend Waluigi.

First of all, he has no real importance to the Mario franchise. Whereas all Mario characters in Smash so far (except Dr. Mario, who was removed for being a terrible idea) have had platforming appearances and have been in main series games, Waluigi was made for a sports game and has never ventured outside of this realm. Because his competition (Jr. and Toad) has made all kinds of appearances in both main and side games, Waluigi's importance is made immediately questionable.

First off, Dr. Mario wasn't removed because he was a "terrible idea". He, like Mewtwo, Roy, Jigglypuff, Toon Link, Toon Zelda, and Wolf were all low-priority characters that could be sacrificed if time would not allow for all of Sakurai's planned characters. Jiggz, Tink, and Wolf were simply the ones that survived.

And while Waluigi has no real importance to the Mario franchise other than just existing in sports titles, that doesn't really matter in the long run.
Sakurai has shown that he doesn't care about what is "main" and what is "spin-off" for the Mario series. If he did, the Mario series would be quite different in overall representation (not just referring to the characters themselves). Dr. Mario would never have been in Melee and planned for Brawl in the first place, with the clone role being given to someone like Wario or Toad if at all.
And then we have cases like Jigglypuff, who was never really important to the Pokémon series yet has been in every single Smash title so far.
It is also worth noting that the "competition" didn't really have anything for Brawl while Waluigi, the "unimportant" character, was given a role as an Assist Trophy. Toad remained as Peach's meat shield like in Melee, and Jr. at most had a Trophy. Even Petey Piranha was given a bigger role to play than them.

On top of this, he's not even a main character in the spin-offs. It's still Mario Kart, Mario Party, and Mario Tennis. Super Smash Bros. is a game featuring Nintendo's all-stars, not filler content.

And yet we have plenty of characters that can't really be considered "All-Stars" to Nintendo. The whole "All-Stars" thing is blown out of proportion anyway, as any game that claims to have an "All-Star cast" tends to exaggerate. Best example is Playstation All-Stars Battle Royale; how many of them are actual Playstation All-Stars?

Second of all, his popularity issues. Whereas some people love him (and even then, most people only formed this attitude because of that really annoying BitF joke), most people hate him.

Unless you have specific data to prove that most people in the world hate Waluigi, you cannot claim it as fact. Conversely, I'm not saying most people love him either, so don't try to turn that around.
Nor can you claim that most people only like Waluigi because of Brawl in the Family, since it's unlikely the Japanese read the comic, and he's got a following there (though not as strong a one as even Black Shadow or Waddle Dee), even compared to major Western request Ridley, who doesn't have much of a following in there (nor does the Metroid series as a whole, anyway...).

I mentioned earlier that he's never made a main series appearance. That in itself is not his biggest problem, but his biggest problem is why that is so. Think about it. WarioWare was created soon after his conception. While Waluigi's personality and relation to Wario would make him an ideal addition to WarioWare and Wario Land games, he's never been in one. Wario Land Shake It could've used co-op multiplayer. Why didn't Waluigi appear in that game to make it so? In Super Mario 64 DS, the fourth character could've been Waluigi, but it was Yoshi instead. So where am I going with this?

While it is true that Waluigi would fit WarioWare to a tee, you need to think about something; the whole point of the games is that Wario is too lazy to make full video games by himself, so the games his company makes are tiny games and his friends do a lot of the work for him. You might be asking, "well why didn't he call up Waluigi to help him?" However, would it honestly be believable that Waluigi would actively help anyone let alone help Wario with a get rich quick scheme that is unlikely to have any sort of benefit for himself?

Wario typically works alone on his treasure hunts, and as shown in Super Sluggers, having Waluigi along for one would be a bad idea as Waluigi, being the selfish prick he is, will try to keep the treasure for himself. So no, Waluigi in Wario Land is not going to happen.
And Shake-It with co-op multiplayer? Lol.

And as said before, Waluigi is not the type of person to actively help anyone. So no, he wouldn't be helping Mario save Peach in SM64DS, especially not if Luigi, his sworn nemesis, is going to do so as well.
Wario on the other hand, isn't that antagonistic towards Mario other than being a competitive rival these days, and is willing to help others......so long as there is ample reward. In SB64DS's case, it was one of Peach's delectable cakes, and we know how Wario loves him some delicious cake....

Urg....

My point is that because he's a heavily criticized Nintendo character, Nintendo has left him out of anything other than Mario spin-offs. Nintendo is not deaf, blind, and dumb. They are well aware that Waluigi is a hated character. While he's certainly more popular now than he was a decade ago (and only because of BitF), Nintendo still won't put him in an important role. The most recent example would be Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon. He's Luigi's supposed rival and he's creepy. Why not put him in that game? Because his inclusion in anything other than a spin-off would outrage most Nintendo fans.

That is a horrible generalization.
1) Waluigi has been left out of "main" Mario games because there's not much that can be done with him that would make sense and isn't just shoehorning him in just for the sake of including him, especially since Wario himself rarely appears in them. It has nothing to do with him being heavily criticized (otherwise Jr. himself wouldn't have appeared in anything post-Sunshine; are you not aware that he was a Replacement Scrappy among the fandom due to "replacing" the fan favorite Koopalings and it wasn't until the Koopalings came back alongside Jr. that he became more well-received?).
2) "Only because of BitF" doesn't cut it; as stated before, BitF only accounts for some corners of the globe. Waluigi has become more well-received because he is becoming less of an "anti-Luigi" with little character and more of a **** Dastardly-esque heel that provides a source of comedic value. It also helps when the Mario fanbase grows with each game, and newer generations never experienced the period in which Waluigi was merely a Scrappy character that was just "evil copy of Luigi".
And then we get gems like this:

3) While Waluigi not appearing in Dark Moon was a disappointment, all in all, it makes more sense for him not to appear in the long run.
King Boo was the villain of the first Luigi's Mansion, and it was to be expected he would want revenge. And since the series is about ghosts to begin with, wouldn't a monarch of ghosts be a better villain for the game? And it's not like Nintendo hasn't missed out on opportunities with other characters; to fit the money theme of NSMB2, Wario would have made sense as a villain, but no, it was Bowser again. Instead of capturing Mario again, King Boo could have captured Daisy, Luigi's supposed counterpart to Peach.
So really, it's not just Waluigi that gets the short end of the stick. It's anyone that isn't Mario, Luigi, Peach, or Bowser, and Luigi has only in recent years started to pick up again.

As things stand, Waluigi is a bad choice for SSB4. He's relegated to spin-offs and isn't even the main character of those. He has a cult but is hated by the general Nintendo fanbase. He's not an all-star. I find it sad that anyone talks of his "potential" when he doesn't have it. They've been sitting on this character for over a decade. Unless he becomes less hated and more popular, they won't tap into his "potential."

So that's my argument. Please don't respond unless you have an intelligent argument. And if your reply contains the words "Too bad, Waluigi Time," I will ignore you.

As things stand, you have yet to prove how Waluigi is a bad choice.
-Sakurai doesn't care between "main" vs. "spin-off"
-His fanbase is more than a cult and his hatebase is a generalized exaggeration
-Quite a few characters in Smash already are not "All-Stars"
-He has potential; it just hasn't been tapped into (and they've only recently started tapping into Luigi's potential, who for the longest time was just "green Mario")
-Toad and Jr. are honestly not that much better

 

[RavenKingSage]

This ought to be interesting. Been a while since I had to defend Waluigi.

Raise thy shield and prepare to battle!

First off, Dr. Mario wasn't removed because he was a "terrible idea". He, like Mewtwo, Roy, Jigglypuff, Toon Link, Toon Zelda, and Wolf were all low-priority characters that could be sacrificed if time would not allow for all of Sakurai's planned characters. Jiggz, Tink, and Wolf were simply the ones that survived.

But even then, some took priority over others. He recognized that it wouldn't be a good idea to re-add Dr. Mario because he was nowhere even close to the importance of the existing Mario characters.

And while Waluigi has no real importance to the Mario franchise other than just existing in sports titles, that doesn't really matter in the long run.
Sakurai has shown that he doesn't care about what is "main" and what is "spin-off" for the Mario series. If he did, the Mario series would be quite different in overall representation (not just referring to the characters themselves). Dr. Mario would never have been in Melee and planned for Brawl in the first place, with the clone role being given to someone like Wario or Toad if at all.

Dr. Mario was one of the last additions to Melee's roster. Sakurai needed more characters to beef it up but only had enough development time to add clones. Ergo, I think Dr. Mario is an exception to the Mario series's standard of main characters in the roster. And the clone role was way easier to give to Dr. M than Wario or Toad. I can't imagine either of them having a cloned moveset.

And then we have cases like Jigglypuff, who was never really important to the Pokémon series yet has been in every single Smash title so far.

Jigglypuff was added to the first game due to be relatively popular and having a recurring anime gag (back when the anime and games were not well-separated). I agree it doesn't make sense anymore, but she's been there for three games. You really can't remove her at this junction.

It is also worth noting that the "competition" didn't really have anything for Brawl while Waluigi, the "unimportant" character, was given a role as an Assist Trophy. Toad remained as Peach's meat shield like in Melee, and Jr. at most had a Trophy. Even Petey Piranha was given a bigger role to play than them.

Giving him the role of assist trophy can be seen as "he's not good enough to be a playable character." While Isaac and Little Mac are certainly worth representing because they are wildly popular and carry their own franchises, Waluigi and many other assist trophies could have been relegated to that role because of recognition that they simply were not good enough to be playable.

And yet we have plenty of characters that can't really be considered "All-Stars" to Nintendo. The whole "All-Stars" thing is blown out of proportion anyway, as any game that claims to have an "All-Star cast" tends to exaggerate. Best example is Playstation All-Stars Battle Royale; how many of them are actual Playstation All-Stars?

First of all, I'd like some examples. The only ones I have in mind (ROB, G&W) were stretches, yeah, but still all-stars in some form. They have some impact on Nintendo's history.

Unless you have specific data to prove that most people in the world hate Waluigi, you cannot claim it as fact. Conversely, I'm not saying most people love him either, so don't try to turn that around.
Nor can you claim that most people only like Waluigi because of Brawl in the Family, since it's unlikely the Japanese read the comic, and he's got a following there (though not as strong a one as even Black Shadow or Waddle Dee), even compared to major Western request Ridley, who doesn't have much of a following in there (nor does the Metroid series as a whole, anyway...).

First of all, on every list, poll, or thread that I've found of "worst Nintendo character," (searched on multiple engines) Waluigi is constantly one of the most brought-up characters.

Second of all, it really feels like most of his fanbase comes from BitF. Mainly because almost every single Waluigi fan I encounter is infatuated with that stupid joke.

While it is true that Waluigi would fit WarioWare to a tee, you need to think about something; the whole point of the games is that Wario is too lazy to make full video games by himself, so the games his company makes are tiny games and his friends do a lot of the work for him. You might be asking, "well why didn't he call up Waluigi to help him?" However, would it honestly be believable that Waluigi would actively help anyone let alone help Wario with a get rich quick scheme that is unlikely to have any sort of benefit for himself?

But even then, the two would have back-and-forth dialogue and arguing and maybe some other WarioWare character would offer Waluigi a reward for assistance.

Wario typically works alone on his treasure hunts, and as shown in Super Sluggers, having Waluigi along for one would be a bad idea as Waluigi, being the selfish prick he is, will try to keep the treasure for himself. So no, Waluigi in Wario Land is not going to happen.
And Shake-It with co-op multiplayer? Lol.

So why couldn't Waluigi compete with Wario for treasure? Why not make them competitive multiplayer? There are ways to fit Waluigi into these games without being inconsistent with his personality. But Nintendo won't do it, going back to my original point.

And as said before, Waluigi is not the type of person to actively help anyone. So no, he wouldn't be helping Mario save Peach in SM64DS, especially not if Luigi, his sworn nemesis, is going to do so as well.
Wario on the other hand, isn't that antagonistic towards Mario other than being a competitive rival these days, and is willing to help others......so long as there is ample reward. In SB64DS's case, it was one of Peach's delectable cakes, and we know how Wario loves him some delicious cake....

Urg....

And Waluigi could've appeared as an antagonist instead, or maybe there would've been some reward for him and he'd be competition. Again, there are plenty of ways to put Waluigi in these games while being consistent with his personality.

That is a horrible generalization.
1) Waluigi has been left out of "main" Mario games because there's not much that can be done with him that would make sense and isn't just shoehorning him in just for the sake of including him, especially since Wario himself rarely appears in them. It has nothing to do with him being heavily criticized (otherwise Jr. himself wouldn't have appeared in anything post-Sunshine; are you not aware that he was a Replacement Scrappy among the fandom due to "replacing" the fan favorite Koopalings and it wasn't until the Koopalings came back alongside Jr. that he became more well-received?).
2) "Only because of BitF" doesn't cut it; as stated before, BitF only accounts for some corners of the globe. Waluigi has become more well-received because he is becoming less of an "anti-Luigi" with little character and more of a ****-Dastardly-esque heel that provides a source of comedic value. It also helps when the Mario fanbase grows with each game, and newer generations never experienced the period in which Waluigi was merely a Scrappy character that was just "evil copy of Luigi".

For one, if Waluigi's so popular, why haven't they found some way to shoehorn him in? If he wasn't a hated character, Nintendo surely would've contributed to his growth by throwing him in main Mario games or the previously addressed Wario games.
For two, plenty of people still remember when he was first introduced. We certainly are not past the point of which those people are still playing Super Smash Bros. It will take decades for the effect of his introduction to wear off.
For three, even if Bowser Jr. wasn't well-received, at least he was in a main game, not as filler content, and out there doing important things.

3) While Waluigi not appearing in Dark Moon was a disappointment, all in all, it makes more sense for him not to appear in the long run.
King Boo was the villain of the first Luigi's Mansion, and it was to be expected he would want revenge. And since the series is about ghosts to begin with, wouldn't a monarch of ghosts be a better villain for the game? And it's not like Nintendo hasn't missed out on opportunities with other characters; to fit the money theme of NSMB2, Wario would have made sense as a villain, but no, it was Bowser again. Instead of capturing Mario again, King Boo could have captured Daisy, Luigi's supposed counterpart to Peach.
So really, it's not just Waluigi that gets the short end of the stick. It's anyone that isn't Mario, Luigi, Peach, or Bowser, and Luigi has only in recent years started to pick up again.

I think you missed my point. His lack of an appearance in Dark Moon is the most recent example of the point I made previously - that he is left out of important appearances. Even if King Boo was the main antagonist, Waluigi could've been a rival character unaffiliated with the boos. He's Luigi's supposed rival, after all. And most characters have been getting the short end of the stick, but hey, Waluigi's one of them.

As things stand, you have yet to prove how Waluigi is a bad choice.
-Sakurai doesn't care between "main" vs. "spin-off"
-His fanbase is more than a cult and his hatebase is a generalized exaggeration
-Quite a few characters in Smash already are not "All-Stars"
-He has potential; it just hasn't been tapped into (and they've only recently started tapping into Luigi's potential, who for the longest time was just "green Mario")
-Toad and Jr. are honestly not that much better

A) All Mario characters currently in Smash are in spin-offs as well as main games, as well as Toad and Jr. Why waste time on somebody who's in spin-offs only when the existing Mario reps already cover them?
B) Even the most dedicated of Waluigi fans I know admit that his fanbase is a cult at best.
C) This character has existed for over a decade and hasn't stepped outside of spin-offs. In an age of making characters like Luigi, Peach, and Wario grow more, Waluigi has not joined this trend. I think that makes it clear that Nintendo sees nothing in him.
D) Toad is one of the most iconic Mario characters, has had adventuring roles, and one of the main characters of the series overall. He was in the original SMB. Jr, while overhyped as a choice, has been established as a real antagonist ever since he was created. They are leagues ahead of Waluigi.

 

[Starcutter]

I'm just going to say right now I'd rather have waluigi over toad and bowser jr, because of his "unique" personality of just being a jerk.

 

[Deleted member]

But even then, some took priority over others. He recognized that it wouldn't be a good idea to re-add Dr. Mario because he was nowhere even close to the importance of the existing Mario characters.

Stop making claims about someone's thought process if you don't actually know what they are thinking.
We don't know how Sakurai felt about Dr. Mario in Brawl's time, nor do we know the reason why Dr. Mario wasn't one of the ones that survived among the "extra" characters.
As such, we cannot bold claims such as yours that have no information to back it up.
And if Sakurai really felt that way about Doc, he wouldn't have even been planned to begin with, like Pichu.

Dr. Mario was one of the last additions to Melee's roster. Sakurai needed more characters to beef it up but only had enough development time to add clones. Ergo, I think Dr. Mario is an exception to the Mario series's standard of main characters in the roster. And the clone role was way easier to give to Dr. M than Wario or Toad. I can't imagine either of them having a cloned moveset.

Really? You can't imagine the character who was originally a giant evil Mario as a Mario clone?
Nor a character that pretty much uses the same skills as Mario when playable in the same game as him as one?
And yet Dr. Mario makes sense as a clone despite his games having completely different gameplay than the Mario series just because it's an alter-ego of Mario?

And no, Sakurai didn't "need" more characters. Melee's roster was pretty much "finished" outside the clones. He decided to add the clones later in development to help boost the roster because he had extra time. It was pretty much clone or nothing.

Jigglypuff was added to the first game due to be relatively popular and having a recurring anime gag (back when the anime and games were not well-separated). I agree it doesn't make sense anymore, but she's been there for three games. You really can't remove her at this junction.

Really, you can, since Brawl almost did. She isn't exactly "untouchable".
As for being in the first game due to the anime, it would have made a lot more sense to include Meowth instead by that regard. At least at this point, Meowth would still make sense.
Meowth was also popular at the time and appeared in near every episode of the anime. So why did Jigglypuff really get in? Simply put, because Jigglypuff was an easy model edit of Kirby and because she was a joke character. Have you ever noticed that in the original 64, Jigglypuff and Kirby share the most animations between two characters other than Mario and Luigi? That's because Jiggz was an edited model swap.
As for her being a joke, Sakurai said as much on Pichu's page on Melee's Japanese website.

Giving him the role of assist trophy can be seen as "he's not good enough to be a playable character." While Isaac and Little Mac are certainly worth representing because they are wildly popular and carry their own franchises, Waluigi and many other assist trophies could have been relegated to that role because of recognition that they simply were not good enough to be playable.

You cannot pick and choose which matter and which don't. That'd be bias.
If one was not "worthy" of being a character, none of them were.
But that's beside the point. My point was that Toad and Jr. pretty much got jack squat despite being more "important". You say Waluigi is an Assist because he wasn't worthy of being a character, then that means Toad and Jr. weren't even Assists because they aren't worthy of anything. (Other than being a meat shield for Peach in Toad's case)
You also claim Doc was removed because Sakurai "thought he was a bad idea", then that means Toad and Jr. were so bad an idea that he didn't even consider them at all.

First of all, I'd like some examples. The only ones I have in mind (ROB, G&W) were stretches, yeah, but still all-stars in some form. They have some impact on Nintendo's history.

If you want to be loose with your definition of an All-Star, then Waluigi is one "in some form".
But as it is, a Nintendo All-Star is an important figure to Nintendo.
The following are NOT All-Stars:
-Dr. Mario (he may have his own series, but the series isn't that major)
-Toon Link (Link is an "All-Star", but that doesn't mean every single incarnation of him is one individually)
-Falco (not that major of a character)
-Wolf (arguable, since while Fox is really the only "All-Star" from Star Fox, Wolf comes somewhat close)
-Jigglypuff (just a minor catchable Pokémon with some popularity)
-Ness (let's face it, Mother is a niche series and doesn't have a stable protagonist)
-Lucas (see Ness)
-Ice Climbers (if it weren't for Smash, no one would care about them at all)
-Roy (just another Fire Emblem hero; any Lord other than Marth and a few arguable cases can be considered "All-Star")
-Ike (see Roy, though Ike is one of the arguable cases)
-Mr. Game & Watch (didn't exist until Melee; while there have been numerous nameless characters, there was never a "Mr. Game & Watch")
-R.O.B. (arguable, since while the peripheral is iconic, it's still a peripheral, not an actual character)

And if we count specific forms:
-Sheik (a one-time alter-ego of Zelda)
-Zero Suit Samus (Samus without armor doesn't really qualify as an "All-Star", especially when she rarely ever does combat without it)
-Ivysaur (Squirtle, Charizard, and the Trainer himself can be considered "All-Stars"; Ivysaur cannot)

First of all, on every list, poll, or thread that I've found of "worst Nintendo character," (searched on multiple engines) Waluigi is constantly one of the most brought-up characters.

Unless you get valid sources other than various editors' "I hate" lists, this point is non-existant.

Second of all, it really feels like most of his fanbase comes from BitF. Mainly because almost every single Waluigi fan I encounter is infatuated with that stupid joke.

"Feels like" =/= reality. Sooner you learn this the better.
Otherwise, I can claim Captain Falcon just gets his fanbase from the Falcon Punch meme and has no legitimate fanbase as a result.

But even then, the two would have back-and-forth dialogue and arguing and maybe some other WarioWare character would offer Waluigi a reward for assistance.

Please, if no one other than Wario gets decent development in the series, what makes you think Waluigi would?
Aside from that, Wario's the one that does things for rewards. Waluigi is too much of a prick to assist anyone willingly.

So why couldn't Waluigi compete with Wario for treasure? Why not make them competitive multiplayer? There are ways to fit Waluigi into these games without being inconsistent with his personality. But Nintendo won't do it, going back to my original point.

Two words: Body frame.
Luigi is only slightly taller than Mario, so making them near the same size is feasible. He also has near the same frame. Waluigi towers over Wario with his long legs compared to Wario's stubby ones, and Waluigi has a twig frame compared to Wario's roly-poly frame.
If there was going to be competitive multiplayer, the two would be drastically different in style, which kills the experience.

Aside from that, your point is that Nintendo won't do it because he's hated. This has nothing to do with that.
They won't do it because it doesn't make sense.

And Waluigi could've appeared as an antagonist instead, or maybe there would've been some reward for him and he'd be competition. Again, there are plenty of ways to put Waluigi in these games while being consistent with his personality.

Waluigi doesn't effing help people, regardless of there being a reward or not.
And really, what logic would Waluigi serve as an antagonist in SMB64? He's not affiliated with Bowser.

For one, if Waluigi's so popular, why haven't they found some way to shoehorn him in? If he wasn't a hated character, Nintendo surely would've contributed to his growth by throwing him in main Mario games or the previously addressed Wario games.

Because shoehorning anything for the sake of doing it is absolutely IDIOTIC. Things need to make sense for it to work! Why not shoehorn Foreman Spike as a main hero next game?
Oh what's that? He's antagonistic towards Mario? Who cares! If we don't shoehorn him here, that means we hate him!

And really, I can turn your logic around. If Toad wasn't a hated character, they would have made him playable in the New Super Mario Bros. games instead of two generic recolored members of his species (and Nabbit in the Super Luigi U game). Hell, they would have made him more distinct than just another generic member of his species.
He would have more playable roles other than a Mario remake of another game and a game where Wario takes top billing despite being the villain.
He would have major roles other than just being there and even then, we don't even know if that was him or just some other member of his species. No seriously, when was the last time Toad himself has done something major? Even his old role as Peach's steward was taken by Toadsworth.

If Jr. is so popular, why is he nothing more than just the "8th Koopaling" and able to take a back seat to the Koopalings or Boom-Boom in recent titles without much upset?
I seem to recall Waluigi not being in Mario Kart 7 to be a major upset, not so much Jr. not appearing in 3D Land or NSMB2, or even Mario Kart 7, since he was excluded like Waluigi was.
And if Daisy wasn't a hated character, why has she not appeared in any "main" games since her debut?
And so on and so forth.

For two, plenty of people still remember when he was first introduced. We certainly are not past the point of which those people are still playing Super Smash Bros. It will take decades for the effect of his introduction to wear off.

Irrelevant. There are plenty of people that still remember when Luigi was just the Green Mario. And when Wario was just the Giant Evil Mario. Doesn't mean they haven't evolved since then into something more. Same with Waluigi. Just because people still remember when Waluigi was nothing more than the Evil Luigi doesn't mean that cannot acknowledge that he has evolved or that the evolution didn't happen.

For three, even if Bowser Jr. wasn't well-received, at least he was in a main game, not as filler content, and out there doing important things.

Honey Queen for Smash, then.

I think you missed my point. His lack of an appearance in Dark Moon is the most recent example of the point I made previously - that he is left out of important appearances. Even if King Boo was the main antagonist, Waluigi could've been a rival character unaffiliated with the boos. He's Luigi's supposed rival, after all. And most characters have been getting the short end of the stick, but hey, Waluigi's one of them.

Waluigi's one of them, yes, but that doesn't mean it's because he's hated. There is no correlation.
And Daisy could have been the one King Boo captured instead of Mario. She's Luigi's supposed girl, after all.

A) All Mario characters currently in Smash are in spin-offs as well as main games, as well as Toad and Jr. Why waste time on somebody who's in spin-offs only when the existing Mario reps already cover them?

Now here's where this gets fun.
Because Sakurai has repeatedly shown that he doesn't care about "main" vs. "spin-off" like you do.
Because Toad is just another Mario whenever he's playable and has nothing special or interesting to work with that isn't something someone else can't already do.
Because Jr. for the most part is just a mini-Bowser to the point he needs his paintbrush to be distinct.
Because Waluigi has many interesting and random abilities to work with, and given how random he is, more abilities could be made up for Smash and still make logical sense.
And finally: Because Sakurai is against just including the "popular" characters (as that doesn't excite him) and has shown a degree of liking towards Waluigi with various positive descriptions.

B) Even the most dedicated of Waluigi fans I know admit that his fanbase is a cult at best.

This is not valid statistic.

C) This character has existed for over a decade and hasn't stepped outside of spin-offs. In an age of making characters like Luigi, Peach, and Wario grow more, Waluigi has not joined this trend. I think that makes it clear that Nintendo sees nothing in him.

It took Luigi almost three decades for him to finally break free from just being the "other Mario Bro.", and then another decade to do so again after he slumped back.
One decade and no breakout for Waluigi is nothing.
Not everyone can pull a Wario.

D) Toad is one of the most iconic Mario characters, has had adventuring roles, and one of the main characters of the series overall. He was in the original SMB. Jr, while overhyped as a choice, has been established as a real antagonist ever since he was created. They are leagues ahead of Waluigi.

So many things wrong here:
1) Toad's only adventuring role was in SMB2, which was a Mario version of Doki Doki Panic for America since the real SMB2, what we know as "The Lost Levels" was too "difficult" for America. His only other major role was Wario's Woods, though Wario gets top billing.
2) Toad's first appearance was in SMB2. The Toad species debuted in SMB, but the Toad character (who is known as Kinopio in Japan) debuted in SMB2.
3) Toad is not a main character by any stretch of the means.


Between this and an essay I had to write for college today, I am frigging tired of typing. Anything you have to retort will not be paid attention to until tomorrow....

 

[Starcutter]

a bunch of stuff about waluigi

wow, that made me almost expect him to be in it. that was really well done.

 

[FalKoopa]

I only hope the discussion doesn't turn ugly. :/

 

[8-peacock-8]

I only hope the discussion doesn't turn ugly. :/

I hope it doesn't either. We already have enough problems dealing with Noah what's his face right now anyway.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I only hope the discussion doesn't turn ugly. :/

Expecting a coherent and tranquil discussion? TOO BAD, WALUIGI TIME!

 

[Deleted member]

When it's Waluigi Time, it's ALWAYS ugly.

(The following image is extremely ugly and may be too disturbing for some users to handle. Viewer discretion is advised.)

Spoiler

(I wasn't joking.)

 

[RavenKingSage]

I am frigging tired of typing. Anything you have to retort will not be paid attention to until tomorrow....

You and me both. I've argued about this on YouTube untilI was blue in the face (fingers? IDK), we're practically speaking two different languages, neither one of us has pulled up sources for fanbase or hate base, we've turned each other's basic arguments into a tornado of text.

Also, I'm not trying to predict. Whether he's likely or not, I can't say. I am only suggesting my opinion on who would make good characters. Sorry if I misled you, but I'm not trying to understand Sakurai's thought process.

Your points make sense, but my basic points are as follows:

Even if Luigi and Wario are remembered by some as Mario rip-offs, at least they were out there adventuring and immediately placed in important games. Even Toad at least had one adventuring role. Having had adventuring or fighting roles of some kind in important games is what I mean when I say "all-star."

Waluigi is too polarizing of a character. Some people would love his inclusion, but some would hate it too. It can't be denied that at least a sizable chunk of fans hate him.

This argument will go in circles if we continue. Neither one of us will be sold on the other's position.

We've reached a stalemate. Truce?

Expecting a coherent and tranquil discussion? TOO BAD, WALUIGI TIME!

Please knock it off. This was never funny.

And as a matter of fact, I am attempting to make it a tranquil discussion by recognizing the stalemate and organizing the truce. Your stale joke is invalid now.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Just to weigh in on the whole discussion about why Waluigi was never in a Wario game.

Because Nintendo R&D1 (now SPD1), the creators of Wario, has always expressed disinterest in using characters that aren't their own. As a matter of fact, their complains about working on Super Mario Land is what led to them to creating Wario to begin with, as a mockery of that. With that said, Wario is their character, but Waluigi was by a third party. When they didn't like using Mario, why would you think they'd warm up to Waluigi?
Aside from Mario's 5 seconds appearance in the first game, no other Nintendo character has appeared or even referenced in any R&D developed Wario Land bar Ms. Game & Watch, which you could argue as being a new character, which is the princess. And Warioware, outside of 9-volts microgames and the two unlockable mini-games in Twisted (MEEEWTROID), is the same, except with brief appearances from the Rhythm Tengoku series, which is by the Warioware team anyway.
It makes me wonder if the reverse is true as well, as to why no Wario Land or Warioware character appeared in a Mario spin off when DKC characters did. The closest thing to a Wario Land representation in a spin off is that Shipyard level in Mario Kart 7.

They have no reason to use Waluigi and clearly they don't want to. Camelot were the ones who claimed he was Wario's partner, but R&D/SPD1 clearly don't see it that way. Good-Feel COULD have added Waluigi in Shake It!...if it made sense, that is. But it doesn't.


Not that I am against Waluigi or anything, but I wanted to say that Waluigi has no real relations to Wario outside of the outsourced spin offs + Mario Kart Double Dash. At all. So saying Waluigi doesn't have a good chance just because he never appeared in a Wario game is a bad argument.

 

[RavenKingSage]

Not that I am against Waluigi or anything, but I wanted to say that Waluigi has no real relations to Wario outside of the outsourced spin offs + Mario Kart Double Dash. At all. So saying Waluigi doesn't have a good chance just because he never appeared in a Wario game is a bad argument.

I wasn't saying he's a bad choice on the sole basis that he's never been in a Wario game (although if he did, he'd actually be important) though. I was connecting it to how Nintendo sees him as little more than disposable filler content relegated to spin-offs. Waluigi's never had a starring role anywhere, even in the negligible spin-offs. (The only spin-off that deserves recognition by Smash is Mario Kart, which is already covered by a stage.)

 

[Deleted member]

You and me both. I've argued about this on YouTube untilI was blue in the face (fingers? IDK), we're practically speaking two different languages, neither one of us has pulled up sources for fanbase or hate base, we've turned each other's basic arguments into a tornado of text.

Also, I'm not trying to predict. Whether he's likely or not, I can't say. I am only suggesting my opinion on who would make good characters. Sorry if I misled you, but I'm not trying to understand Sakurai's thought process.

Your points make sense, but my basic points are as follows:

Even if Luigi and Wario are remembered by some as Mario rip-offs, at least they were out there adventuring and immediately placed in important games. Even Toad at least had one adventuring role. Having had adventuring or fighting roles of some kind in important games is what I mean when I say "all-star."

Waluigi is too polarizing of a character. Some people would love his inclusion, but some would hate it too. It can't be denied that at least a sizable chunk of fans hate him.

This argument will go in circles if we continue. Neither one of us will be sold on the other's position.

We've reached a stalemate. Truce?

Truce.

Please knock it off. This was never funny.

And as a matter of fact, I am attempting to make it a tranquil discussion by recognizing the stalemate and organizing the truce. Your stale joke is invalid now.

What's funny is that Habanero is anti-Waluigi. So the joke is used as satire.

Just to weigh in on the whole discussion about why Waluigi was never in a Wario game.

Because Nintendo R&D1 (now SPD1), the creators of Wario, has always expressed disinterest in using characters that aren't their own. As a matter of fact, their complains about working on Super Mario Land is what led to them to creating Wario to begin with, as a mockery of that. With that said, Wario is their character, but Waluigi was by a third party. When they didn't like using Mario, why would you think they'd warm up to Waluigi?
Aside from Mario's 5 seconds appearance in the first game, no other Nintendo character has appeared or even referenced in any R&D developed Wario Land bar Ms. Game & Watch, which you could argue as being a new character, which is the princess. And Warioware, outside of 9-volts microgames and the two unlockable mini-games in Twisted (MEEEWTROID), is the same, except with brief appearances from the Rhythm Tengoku series, which is by the Warioware team anyway.
It makes me wonder if the reverse is true as well, as to why no Wario Land or Warioware character appeared in a Mario spin off when DKC characters did. The closest thing to a Wario Land representation in a spin off is that Shipyard level in Mario Kart 7.

They have no reason to use Waluigi and clearly they don't want to. Camelot were the ones who claimed he was Wario's partner, but R&D/SPD1 clearly don't see it that way. Good-Feel COULD have added Waluigi in Shake It!...if it made sense, that is. But it doesn't.


Not that I am against Waluigi or anything, but I wanted to say that Waluigi has no real relations to Wario outside of the outsourced spin offs + Mario Kart Double Dash. At all. So saying Waluigi doesn't have a good chance just because he never appeared in a Wario game is a bad argument.

Good point. I completely forgot about R&D1 being so anal about not using their own characters.
And if I remember correctly, Wario was originally going to be just a one-time character....

Anyways, I feel the best bet for Waluigi to branch out would be to essentially assimilate the Wrecking Crew series as his own (so "Waluigi's Wrecking Crew") given that he's essentially a walking tribute to it.
Unlike the heroic Mario, who was wrecking buildings for good reason, Waluigi would be wrecking them because he's destructive (Wreck-It Waluigi). With Waluigi as the star of the series, we'd pretty much have villain vs. villain with Waluigi vs. Foreman Spike.
And, it can be tweaked a bit from Wrecking Crew '98 in that Waluigi can pick up cheating power-ups to go along with Charles Martinet's idea on Waluigi getting a game where he has to cheat to win.

Waluigi's never had a starring role anywhere, even in the negligible spin-offs.

While not a "starring" role, he was the main villain of Mario Party 3 and was the plot-centered villain of DDR: Mario Mix (Bowser just randomly comes in the end; essentially shoehorned just so the final boss would be Mario/Luigi vs. Bowser again).

And saying Mario Kart is the only spin-off that deserves recognition is biased.

 

[RavenKingSage]

And saying Mario Kart is the only spin-off that deserves recognition is biased.

The reason I say this is because Mario Kart has been around longer than any other Mario spin-off and has had the best reception among both critics and fans. And I'll have to check my sources, but I believe it has the best sales as well.

 

[Deleted member]

Sales. Don't. Matter.

Ike's games did poor compared to other games in the Fire Emblem series. Yet Sakurai still added him because he saw something interesting he could do with him.

 

[RavenKingSage]

Sales. Don't. Matter.

Ike's games did poor compared to other games in the Fire Emblem series. Yet Sakurai still added him because he saw something interesting he could do with him.

I think Ike's an exception. If a game is successful, it's only natural that Nintendo will want the game to get a playable character in SSB. Ike managed to get a lot of requests despite the poor performance of his games, but success of the games do play a part. (Critical reception is another key component of overall success.)

 

[Deleted member]

Ike's inclusion is not attributed to his requests.

In fact, when Sakurai decided upon the characters by July 7, 2005, he went to Intelligent Systems for a suggestion for a new character.
They suggested Ike.
Sakurai saw an opportunity to have a complete contrast to Marth's style and went with the suggestion.

 

[RavenKingSage]

Ike's inclusion is not attributed to his requests.

In fact, when Sakurai decided upon the characters by July 7, 2005, he went to Intelligent Systems for a suggestion for a new character.
They suggested Ike.
Sakurai saw an opportunity to have a complete contrast to Marth's style and went with the suggestion.

You learn something new every day.

Still, a first party developer for Nintendo giving Sakurai a suggestion is a special case, I think.

Most people look at Ike and say "Sales don't matter." I look at Ike and say "Sales don't always matter."

 

[FalKoopa]

Waluigi was created by Camelot, correct?

Hmm... Maybe Waaa is being treated unfairly due Miyamoto being jealous of Camelot.

 

[Deleted member]

In the end, it's who Sakurai feels should be in, which honestly makes predictions and determination for any character to be pointless.

We have examples where prevalence matters.
We have examples where popularity takes control.
We have examples where uniqueness factors the most.
We have examples that are sheer "sure, why not?".

Habanero said it best when he said that Sakurai is unpredictable. Characters we say are likely may not be so likely, and reasonable characters we dismiss for one reason or another could end up being what Sakurai goes with. Doesn't mean we still can't try to predict him, but in the long run, predictions are pointless.

 

[MagnesD3]

Waluigi is the ultimate troll character and luigis rival, he is a must.

 

[8-peacock-8]

Waluigi is definitely the joke character we need but don't deserve......what am i talking about...

 

[MagnesD3]

Waluigi is definitely the joke character we need but don't deserve......what am i talking about...

The Shadow of a Shadow, Waluigi is batman.

 

[Deleted member]

I still find it ironic that the tallest mustachioed overalls is in the shadows of shorter ones.

 

[8-peacock-8]

I still find it ironic that the tallest mustachioed overalls is in the shadows of shorter ones.

Well to be fair, Wario sits on him.

 

[Starcutter]

Have you guys seen this waluigi hack? it's pretty good.

 

[MagnesD3]

Have you guys seen this waluigi hack? it's pretty good.

I agree with his b over (minus the fall to the ground, I would make the normal animation gradually fall though when done in air) and I like his b up but I imagine the drill would go up then come down in an upside down parabola shape (do lots of damage if the full hits connect. His B move I would give him a bomb move where he pull out a bomb with the backwards L symbol on it and can hold it and throw it at any time (limit to one on screen though) unlike links, It randomly would appear as a bom bomb and would be just as deadly on hit as one. Also I would like waluigi's b down to be a ballerina spin that moves him horozontal where he grabs his foot and spins away (while moving horizontally it goes up and then down till waluigi hits the ground.) His B over wouldnt use up his recovery move either.

 

[Deleted member]

Well to be fair, Wario sits on him.

Instantly thought of this picture.

 

[Starcutter]

do you guys think that waluigi's megastrike from mario strikers charged should be an attack of some sorts? it's a thorny whip, by the way.


also, I found this

 

[8-peacock-8]

I could totally see Waluigi using his vine whip from Mario Strikers.

His mega strike in general is a potential final smash.

 

[Starcutter]

I could totally see Waluigi using his vine whip from Mario Strikers.


His mega strike in general is a potential final smash.

WALUIGI used VINE WHIP!
CRITICAL HIT!
IT'S SUPER EFFECTIVE!

 

[8-peacock-8]

I would love to see Waluigi kill Ridley with a vine Whip.