Data Wah Wah Wah : The Wario Matchup thread

[Goodstyle_4]

Yoshi is not really a "bad" matchup for Wario, but it can be incredibly annoying.

• Yoshi can deal with bike very well. Yoshi's nair can actually one shot it.
• Yoshi has a better airgame than you, which sucks.
• Eggs are just annoying.
• Killing is difficult since Yoshi is very rarely on the ground for an extended period of time(have to depend on Bair and Uair)
• If Yoshi gets the first kill, the match is VERY heavily in his favor unless you can get a quick revenge kill.

Otherwise, the matchup is actually quite even. Wario is basically just tons of Chomp and Fair abuse in this matchup, moreso than usual.

45-55 in my opinion.

I'm of this opinion except I would put it at 55-45 in Wario's favour. From my experience, Wario just has a much easier time killing than Yoshi does, and when he gets the first kill, the match becomes heavily slanted in Wario's favour.

Yoshi not being on the ground a lot doesn't make him killing difficult IMO, as landing the Waft is generally how Wario is going to kill him reliably anyways. I tend to get him in between his aerials or when he's about to start up his fair.

Overall, this fight is a pretty even slug fest, but Wario comes out on top since Yoshi's kill moves are generally inferior, his grab and neutral B leave him very open to the Waft if spot dodged, and his smash attacks are very unsafe, especially in comparison to Wario's F-Tilt which is a potent kill move if angled up.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I play this MU with Seel online. I don't think it's in Wario's favour at all, I'm leaning towards a disadvantage for Wario here, not in his favour.

Yoshi's air mobility is as good as Wario's. Not only that, but his range is also better. He not only contests Wario in the air, but also beats him in the air, imo.

But maybe I'm not playing it right. Here us the twitch link:
http://www.twitch.tv/seellol/b/649685489

My matches with Seel as Wario start at around the 1:09:30 mark.

What would you suggest I do / not do?

 

[shoff]

I play this MU with Seel online. I don't think it's in Wario's favour at all, I'm leaning towards a disadvantage for Wario here, not in his favour.

Yoshi's air mobility is as good as Wario's. Not only that, but his range is also better. He not only contests Wario in the air, but also beats him in the air, imo.

But maybe I'm not playing it right. Here us the twitch link:
http://www.twitch.tv/seellol/b/649685489

My matches with Seel as Wario start at around the 1:09:30 mark.

What would you suggest I do / not do?

I think you have a really good Wario to be honest. The biggest thing I saw was that you tend to challenge with him. If I have learned anything, its dont challenge stuff, reset and be patient. Your down air wont win against attacks as the first hit doesn't flinch them or anything. NAIR does beat out a few things, but the window is pretty small, and with a character that can weave pretty easily I would use it sparingly. The final thing, you dont always have to attack with aerials, I have been really finding his dash attack extremely useful in many situations. The Yoshi was pretty good, and you did well otherwise. Great games. Ill be posting my Wario videos as well, I have been switching mains like undies, but Wario was my main in brawl...and I'm back.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Thanks @ shoff , I also noticed I was getting rather greedy with some of my aerials. Resetting to neutral is an issue I have with Yoshi, however, he's one of the few characters where I feel threatened in the air.

BY THE WAY,

We've started preliminary discussion of the Wario vs Fox matchup:
vs

Click here to join the discussion over at the Fox boards

 

[Ridel]

I mostly agree @ ZeGlasses! on this MU but I also agree with what @ Goodstyle_4 in regards to getting kills. Ehhh I'll still say it's 55-45 in Yoshi's favor only because Wario needs to put in more work when compared to Yoshi.

 

[jabronni]

I find Yoshi difficult to deal with because he is very hard to punish. He is able to throw out a jab after landing which always catches my aerial approach. However, I have had better results catching him with the tip of a dash attack in that scenario. Because Yoshi's aerials are good, Wario's ability to shift his momentum needs to be abused. For instance, baiting out a nair from Yoshi by SH towards him then pulling back for a bite can be a good counter if you are constantly being challenged in the air by him.

 

[Waymas]

Yoshi is not really a "bad" matchup for Wario, but it can be incredibly annoying.

• Yoshi can deal with bike very well. Yoshi's nair can actually one shot it.
• Yoshi has a better airgame than you, which sucks.
• Eggs are just annoying.
• Killing is difficult since Yoshi is very rarely on the ground for an extended period of time(have to depend on Bair and Uair)
• If Yoshi gets the first kill, the match is VERY heavily in his favor unless you can get a quick revenge kill.

Otherwise, the matchup is actually quite even. Wario is basically just tons of Chomp and Fair abuse in this matchup, moreso than usual.

45-55 in my opinion.

I totally agree with this, Yoshi air game is really tough and really hard to beat, i reccoment using the Utilt and Upsmash for his Dair and Nair, dont waste the Waft as usual. It is also a good idea to gimp Yoshi out of the stage.

45:55 Yoshi Favor

 

[Waymas]

Time for ZSS guys!

 

[Roots]

Oh geez... does Wario have anything over ZSS? She's faster, has better range, faster moves, easier kills, combos...

 

[pichuthedk]

Nair and zair actually murder wario like all the time especially from bike.
you can probably use the bike for gimps but she would have to be out of jump/down b for it to work really well.

Bite is decent but I'm not sure if we can up b from a range.

Since Zss's always get bullied some of us shield more I've gotten lucky on so many wafts via running shield.

 

[David Viran]

https://youtube.com/watch?v=7c-ZKTh76K0

At about 1 hour and 17 minutes is leon vs gluttony.

 

[Revax]

Pros

• Bike blocks stun gun (can lead to wheelie landing on her)
• Wario's offstage game is greater than ZSS and Waft can punish up-b recoveries
• ZSS's tether grab makes shielding a safer option (I fail to punish many things however)

Cons

• ZSS's grab can pull Wario off his bike, and her nair is good at knocking Wario off his bike also
• ZSS's aerials and jab are faster so attacks are harder to punish
• Everything ZSS gets out of down-throw
• Nair, spaced forward-smash, grab, down-smash and dash attack beat chomp

Both can end each other's stocks quickly. Wario often gets put on higher percentages due to combos and waft can be cancelled by quick attacks and nair defeats chomp and bike, therefore I consider the match-up in ZSS's favour

 

[DavemanCozy]

Although ZSS has a great edgeguarding and offstage gimping game, Wario has the advantage of having a great recovery himself, which combined with his weight lets him live longer than average as a result.

If it is bad for Wario, it's due to how he gets outranged by ZSS. She gives Wario a hard time finding a time to go in, forcing him to jump around her hitboxes or use different bike approaches (both which she can see coming and punish) until he finds an opening.

Edit:
One thing to watch out for is to avoid being in any stage position above ZSS, since Wario is very combo friendly and she's capable of KOing him with Uair juggles -> UpB jet boot kick at 60% if you're not careful.

I like that Wario is capable of eating her paralyzing shots. Even though he doesn't gain Waft charge time, the cooldown time is small and lets Wario mitigate some of ZSS's paralyzer setups.

 

[Ridel]

Pros

• Bike blocks stun gun (can lead to wheelie landing on her)
• Wario's offstage game is greater than ZSS and Waft can punish up-b recoveries
• ZSS's tether grab makes shielding a safer option (I fail to punish many things however)

Cons

• ZSS's grab can pull Wario off his bike, and her nair is good at knocking Wario off his bike also
• ZSS's aerials and jab are faster so attacks are harder to punish
• Everything ZSS gets out of down-throw
• Nair, spaced forward-smash, grab, down-smash and dash attack beat chomp

Both can end each other's stocks quickly. Wario often gets put on higher percentages due to combos and waft can be cancelled by quick attacks and nair defeats chomp and bike, therefore I consider the match-up in ZSS's favour

So would you say 40-60 in ZSS's favor?

 

[Zionaze]

I noticed most MUs end up either 50-50, 60-40, or 40-60. No real "hard" counters but no easy wins too.

 

[Mrwhatzitooya]

I personally think the MU is about 60-40 in Wario's favour. While ZSS has better speed and combo potential, Wario's weight and good recovery definitely helps increase survivability.

Also, I've found ZSS strategies often revolve around a set number of combos (eg Stun > dash grab > D-throw > etc), while Wario is a more unpredictable character in the MU. Overall, it's close, but 60-40 seems reasonable to me.

 

[David Viran]

I personally think the MU is about 60-40 in Wario's favour. While ZSS has better speed and combo potential, Wario's weight and good recovery definitely helps increase survivability.

Also, I've found ZSS strategies often revolve around a set number of combos (eg Stun > dash grab > D-throw > etc), while Wario is a more unpredictable character in the MU. Overall, it's close, but 60-40 seems reasonable to me.

All of the moves she uses to space with combo. Paralyzer can only really be hit confirmed with b reverse mind games because it has 21 frames of start up without charge.

 

[Spinosaurus]

What can ZSS do against a campy and passive Wario?

Feels like this is the question we have to ask ourselves in MU discussions.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

I frequently play with a friend who mains ZSS, and I can easily say that the matchup is not as bad as you guys think.

• First things first: You have to play more defensive and passive.
• ZSS can grab you off your bike, so try not to stay on it for too long. Use it more as a projectile.
• Chomping from above is great against ZSS, as she can't really do much about it if she can't react fast enough.
• As said before, PLAY DEFENSIVE. You should never really be the "aggravator". You should be doing most of your damage on punishes. Don't be hesitant to run away.
• Wario can evade the stun-gun very well, just practice it.
• Know when to use half-charged waft or full-charged waft. Using one of them in the right situation can win you games or vastly put games in your favor.
• Bike edgeguarding is really annoying for ZSS, abuse it.
• Just another tip: Ban FD immediately, ZSS likes that stage more than you.

I would say it is 40-60 in ZSS' favor at the worst. I just know the matchup very well in general.
But personally, it's 45-55, as I never really struggle against them.

 

[Routa]

Well from my little experience against ZSS, I think it is 45:55 in favor of ZSS (if played more defensively and 40:60 if played more offensively. But as I said my knowledge of this matchup is limited so yeah (there is no local scene near me so my MU knowledge comes from online tournaments). But like others said Defensive>Offensive playstyle when fighting against ZSS.

 

[Ffamran]

Yo, we're making garlic bread, so we need some garlic. Wanna help us out?

Hello, bikers and businesspeoples, the Falco boards started their ongoing matchup discussion on Wario and we're missing some of that garlic for our garlic bread recipe. Drop in whenever: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4-falco-matchup-discussion-33-wario-garlic-bread.402810/.

And if you just want to have fun or want to roll out that MU, head over here to challenge some Falco players: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

 

[Waymas]

Pretty much what he said, you have to play really defensive, there's no other way you could win this MU

I frequently play with a friend who mains ZSS, and I can easily say that the matchup is not as bad as you guys think.

• First things first: You have to play more defensive and passive.
• ZSS can grab you off your bike, so try not to stay on it for too long. Use it more as a projectile.
• Chomping from above is great against ZSS, as she can't really do much about it if she can't react fast enough.
• As said before, PLAY DEFENSIVE. You should never really be the "aggravator". You should be doing most of your damage on punishes. Don't be hesitant to run away.
• Wario can evade the stun-gun very well, just practice it.
• Know when to use half-charged waft or full-charged waft. Using one of them in the right situation can win you games or vastly put games in your favor.
• Bike edgeguarding is really annoying for ZSS, abuse it.
• Just another tip: Ban FD immediately, ZSS likes that stage more than you.

I would say it is 40-60 in ZSS' favor at the worst. I just know the matchup very well in general.
But personally, it's 45-55, as I never really struggle against them.

 

[axelalexzander]

Is this thread going to move onto other matchups? Just wondering it has been on ZSS for about a month.

 

[Waymas]

My bad i have been kinda busy lately, let's move now to SONIC!

 

[Routa]

Wario is called Sanic Slayer for a reason. He has the best counter to his spining moves. His huge jaws *Jaws music starts to play*. He can just Fair poke and roadkill that animal with his bike. But you still kinda have to play defensively. But if you ask me 60:40 or even 65:35 in favor of Wario. But then again I rarely fight that thing...

 

[Zionaze]

Sonic really has to change his playstyle when wario comes in.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

A Sonic that KNOWS the matchup certainly isn't going to risk going for any of his spindash combos, but he also kinda loses to Bike punishes if he tries to be aggressive.

 

[Sari]

Bike/Chomp stop just about all of Sonic's ground approaches, and Wario's aerials allow for him to approach Sonic from just about every angle (except maybe not from directly above). Sonic's attacks in general are very quick and relatively weak, while Wario's are somewhat quick and fairly strong. Of course Sonic still has some advantages like being quicker and being able to combo Wario if he gets the chance, but Wario definitely has the upper hand.

Overall, I'd say it's 60:40 (maybe even 70:30) in Wario's favor since Sonic has to completely rethink his approach options.

 

[NeonSpeed315]

Maining both and , this is most likely in favor of .

Pros: Sonics approaches are all shut down like hell excluding homing attack. Sonics basic bread and butter is beaten by pressing B By Wario. (Sonic doesn't have many combos excluding spindash) Recovery potential isn't as great with a very linear vertical recovery; in return, easier to carry offstage. Warios air speed>>Sonics. Same with Aerials. Sonic is easy to juggle and Wario is a decent juggler. Wario wins in positive I believe. Neutral and negative are pretty even, if not in the slightest bit in favor of Wario. in Negative, Try to go to deep so sonic/'s spring dont get you. In general, you have a fair amount of long range moves such as bair and f tilt. Exploit those well.

Cons: Sanic Speed OP. he's extremely fast and smart sonics will maneuver around bites lot. Sonic has a decent air game: your fair will lose to most of his aerials IIRC. he can rise up in the air higher than you including all jumps, so don't linger close to blast zones too often. Some sonic moves can outrange warios, like sonics d tilt, f tilt, fsmash, bair, etc. Not to mention a lot of priority. Also, spring gimps mean he doesn't have to go near you offstage to gimp well.


TL;DR: Chomp>. Neutral goes to cus air control and chomp beats speed. Negative-> spring gimps>bike and jumps. Positive-> he can go very deep and exploit the linear recovery. Range-> / both have very long/short range moves.

All in All, vs. is 55/45 to 60/40 in favor of

 

[ZeGlasses!]

Depends on matchup knowledge, I find.

If the Sonic doesn't know how to face Wario, it's very very heavily in Wario's favor. Chomp and Bike just **** him over so hard if he can't deal with it.

He has to change his playstyle in order to face Wario, but it's still a very beatable matchup for Sonic.

If both players have knowledge of the matchup, it's barely in Sonic's favor with 55/45

I'll write in more detail later.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

How do people think the MU is 65-35, 70-30 in Wario's favor? What Sonics are you guys playing lol. The difference between a good Sonic who knows the MU and a bad and/or inexperienced one is like night and day. Just because a character has to change their normal approach for a MU doesn't mean they're automatically at a disadvantage. Realistically this MU is closer to even in my opinion. I can possibly see 55-45 for us.

 

[NeonSpeed315]

How do people think the MU is 65-35, 70-30 in Wario's favor? What Sonics are you guys playing lol. The difference between a good Sonic who knows the MU and a bad and/or inexperienced one is like night and day. Just because a character has to change their normal approach for a MU doesn't mean they're automatically at a disadvantage. Realistically this MU is closer to even in my opinion. I can possibly see 55-45 for us.

So u agree wit me somewhat?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I think 60-40 is a bit of a stretch but I can realistically see 55-45, so yes. I play two exceptional Sonics in my scene quite a bit.

There is just no way the MU is 65-35 or better. That's saying we **** Sonic. No one ***** that character.

 

[Routa]

There is just no way the MU is 65-35 or better. That's saying we **** Sonic. No one ***** that character.

Wait what?

Isn't 50-50 even
60-40 small advantage
70-30 big advantage
80-20 "naughty thing"
90-10 "naughty thing"^3?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Hence the reason why I used the words "or better". 65-35 is essentially saying we have a rather large advantage over him. Its entirely subjective terminology but still.

 

[Routa]

We could ask from Sonic mains what they think about this MU. It would be good idea to get the both sides of the story, eh?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

In a majority of cases, I would agree with that. But as I main another character that is really misunderstood and few people play at a high level, I've learned to be ready for dumb replies. Most of us at the Meta Knight boards tend to keep to ourselves because very few people actually have high level MK experience but we play Sonics, Luigis, Falcons, etc all the time. So they often times make really dumb, uneducated statements and its gets frustrating. I imagine it would be the same case here. How many high level Warios are there? But if you feel like its worth it, then you can try summoning other Sonics. There's a million of them so their boards are pretty active.

 

[Spinosaurus]

We only beat braindead Sonic play, a good Sonic that knows the matchup can actually give Wario hell if he knows what he's doing, but in the end I think it's likely even.

Can Wario time out Sonic if he gets the lead?What can Sonic do to a Wario that stays in the air and run with his superior air mobility and bike usage, aside from guessing?

 

[NeonSpeed315]

Can Wario time out Sonic if he gets the lead?What can Sonic do to a Wario that stays in the air and run with his superior air mobility and bike usage, aside from guessing?

I'm a sonic main. Wario cannot time out sonic, due to sonics superior speed, 6th best air sspeed, and ability to go deep offstage or up very high at ease. Sonic has better jump height but worse air speed. He can possibly catch Wario in air, but sonics better at catching landings bY FAR.

thing is, warios chomp and heavy potential for landing mixups make landing somewhat easy for Wario too. Regardless he cannot be timed out. This is why this is somewhat debatable for both sides... Both characters have options that can trump the other :/

 

[NeonSpeed315]

In a majority of cases, I would agree with that. But as I main another character that is really misunderstood and few people play at a high level, I've learned to be ready for dumb replies. Most of us at the Meta Knight boards tend to keep to ourselves because very few people actually have high level MK experience but we play Sonics, Luigis, Falcons, etc all the time. So they often times make really dumb, uneducated statements and its gets frustrating. I imagine it would be the same case here. How many high level Warios are there? But if you feel like its worth it, then you can try summoning other Sonics. There's a million of them so their boards are pretty active.

Not to sound superior, but I think my input may be sufficient.. I play Wario and sonic in tourneys and get decent results.