Data Wah Wah Wah : The Wario Matchup thread

[DtJ S2n]

Dreamland has an incredibly low ceiling which is an absolute no-go vs Luigi. He kills vertically and we don't, simple as that. You're right about platforms and large stages giving us room to breathe verse him, but just go for Battlefield which has the highest ceiling and the same platform structure.

DavemanCozy is right that Duck Hunt is a perfect stage to avoid conflict on. Any time a situation gets sticky, you should be able to escape safely.

 

[Waymas]

Last hours for this MU and we will be moving to Villager ;3

 

[WRECK-IT MUNDO]

J Miller told me he has a disadvantage against my Wario.

 

[Waymas]

Let's move to Villager!

 

[Sari]

Using the bike against Villager in any way (bike tossing or even normal riding) is incredibly risky since there's the chance that they can pocket it, which can lead to Wario easily being gimped if his waft isn't charged. This can also make getting back onto the stage with the bike a problem, since you have to make sure your bike went off the stage so it won't be pocketed. Just about all of Villager's aerials beat Wario's so aerial approaches aren't usually the best.

I think Wario dealing with Villager by mainly staying on the ground is his best option since most of Villager's attacks don't cause too much shield pressure (such as the slingshot) and their grab is a bit lengthy and can easily be punished. However Villager's attacks such as f-air and n-air are still really quick and they can just unleash a bunch of them so approaching a defensive Wario isn't too hard. Villager is much lighter/easier to launch than Wario, and I think Wario may have a few better KO'ing moves but Villager definitely has the upper hand.

I say it's 60:40 (if not that possibly 55:45) in 's favor.

 

[dumcb]

I would also have to say that the MU favors Villager 60/40. It's just a bad MU and I hate going against Villager much more than even Sheik.

Wario
Pros
- Games can have a tendency to last longer, meaning more / easier Waft charging.
- I believe Wario is fairly heavy, so rage Wafts are definitely a possibility.
- Great recovery options means reduced chances of touching unwanted metal balls.
- Chomp random projectiles.

Cons
- Easily gimped recovery with Bike pocketed.
- No range on attacks, essentially no projectile
- Low'ish damage output and lack of real combos means even when you get in, you don't have guaranteed damage.
- Lack of reliable kill moves till higher percents



Villager

Pros
- Easily spaces/walls Wario out, flurry of projectiles means even Chomp is unsafe
- Nearly guaranteed he will make it back to the stage
- Easy Stage Control with Timber
- Very safe, has little reason to commit to anything as Wario can only hurt him at close range.
- Pocket

Cons
- Again, kill moves can be found wanting at times. This is because nearly all of them are telegraphed and all except the bthrow can be shielded easily. Will rely on Timber and its axe, close ranged (aka dangerous) bairs/fairs, or smashes. He does have a killing bthrow at high percents.
- Approach can be poor. Mainly will run behind Lloyd Rocket and go for DA/grab mixups. Otherwise will mainly sit just outside your range and be a **** with slingshot.
- Doesn't usually kill quickly, so Wafts will come.

Patience is the number one word here for Wario. This is definitely not an unwinnable MU but if you need the experience playing it. For example I still struggle with Villager but that's because I'm not yet a good player that can capitalize on the right windows.

Shield is Wario's #1 friend here, and you will be shielding until you force the Villager to try and make a grab. Otherwise, sit for Waft and wait until the Villager moves in on you. They're not used to making the approach. Basically it feels like you have to wait until the Villager hands you openings due to impatience.

 

[DtJ S2n]

There's so many things to be careful about in this match-up. You have to be careful to not get your bike jacked, so biking on-stage is pretty much a no go, especially because his slingshot is really great at making us fall off the bike. If you recover high maybe go super high with a double jump, ride the bike longer than normal and have it fly off the other side so you don't have to worry about him snagging it. If you recover low, you have to be careful to not get knocked off the bike with basically any aerial, it's entirely realistic for him to gimp us if we let him.

With that in mind, on-stage you definitely can't fight him like a normal character. You may be tempted to go high to avoid the slingshots and lloids, and that's okay at a range, but directly above his head his u-air, n-air and u-tilt are too good to get much freedom there or ever just trying to land into him. They hurt a lot too so don't do that. Shield is definitely going to get a lot of use here. If you get close enough to do a rising sh f-air at him, that shuts down almost all of his short hop options and he'll need to get space. You can also get a lot of mileage by crawling. It does get a little bit shorter, and it's significantly easier to powershield out of crawl than run or walk. Plus it lets you approach with d-tilt! One of the actual good things about this match-up is his out of shield options are pretty weak unless you're directly on top of him. A D-tilt on his shield puts a lot of pressure on him and can open him up to our mix-up game. At the max range of or just outside our d-tilt is a great place for us in this match-up. A little bit further away and we can't chase down his jumps with f-air and lloid is less of a risk for him to throw. Any closer and we have to put up with his godlike n-air and his great jab.

It's very possible for us to capitalize on his recovery ourselves with our air mobility. He has to work a lot to weave around our d-air. Waft is also hugely threatening to him offstage.

I don't want to put a number to it right now but it's definitely their favor purely for how many places our lives can go wrong because of pocket. I'll make it a point to grind this match-up when I go out Saturday and hopefully I'll get something recorded.

 

[shoff]

Obviously in Villager's favor. Advice I can offer...
-As all have said, shielding is great in this match up. Patience is even more important.
-Don't pick a stage with platforms as bowling ball nonsense is real. Dont recover directly under lip of stage.
-If chasing off stage, don't find yourself under him else you will probably get gimped.
-May not be much help to anyone, but if low hop chomping, you will bite villager but the ball will still come out and hit you, so yea.
-Our up air consistently beats his down air so up throw is really good in this match up. Take advantage when under him....onstage.
-Try to stay above slingshot action if you prefer the aerial rush down approach.
-Never try to punish forward smash, punish what they do after.

 

[Magik0722]

Heavy advantage towards wario. Will make a writeup tomorrow.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Heavy advantage towards wario. Will make a writeup tomorrow.

Yeah I'm not entirely convinced we lose this, so I'm interested.

 

[dumcb]

Heavy advantage towards wario. Will make a writeup tomorrow.

Very excited to read this! I noted while writing that we actually do have some good positives in the MU, but I still have no idea how we would even get in and touch them.

 

[Antonykun]

Reminding everyone that Wario gains more from Villager camping (charging waft) than villager does wario also villager has bellow average kill potential whereas Wario can abuse balloon trip's vulnerability

 

[shoff]

Villager kills extremely early with forward smash, and his other kill options aren't really bad considering how he is able to safely tack on damage. To say this match is heavily in Wario's favor doesn't seem to make much sense. Heavily in his favor means we would have very little issues with the character in general and run right through them, this is not the case. He can pocket our recovery.... Villager can dictate the pace, and while we get more time to charge the waft, its not like the waft is a guaranteed thing to hit... especially against a campy individual that is smart about it. Without customs that is. I am really looking forward to seeing this writeup.

 

[Zionaze]

Tbh its not that bad. Balloon acts as a hitbox extender so you will have guarenteed fart setups on him.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Villager kills extremely early with forward smash

What in the world are you doing if you're getting hit by that.

 

[shoff]

Am I the only one that has gotten hit by forward smash or something? lol Its really not that slow, and very effective on platform stages and as an edge guarding tool. And no, I usually don't recover that way in this matchup, but sometimes it happens.

 

[Zionaze]

Its pretty darn slow actually.

 

[jabronni]

Reminding everyone that Wario gains more from Villager camping (charging waft) than villager does wario also villager has bellow average kill potential whereas Wario can abuse balloon trip's vulnerability

Pretty much this. Yes, it is hard to approach villager and yes the pocket threat is there. However, I think Wario's aerial mobility can deal with Villager's projectile game while he charges waft. So, at that point typical waft setups are hindered because of Villager's wall-like play and options need to be discussed in that scenario (I don't have many because it's so situational). As @ Antonykun pointed out, Wario can abuse Villager's vulnerability during recovery. I'd say it's a close match-up, but I would put Wario at the advantage.

 

[Rakurai]

I'm curious to whether or not Wario can exploit Villager's ledge grab vulnerability by just wafting his balloons from on-stage just before he ledge snaps.

That would be pretty hilarious if it works.

EDIT: After testing, you can't exploit the one frame, but at higher percents, Villager's edgegrab invincibility is short enough that if you waft the balloons a split second after he grabs the ledge, it'll cover any ledge options other then a ledge roll.

 

[SharpShot925]

Alright, so i would say that this matchup is 60-40 in favor of wario. Sure, Wario's bike can be pocketed, so only use it to recover and nothing else and mostly you'll be fine, which does take away from bike setups and whatnot which is bad. A campy villager allows Wario to charge his waft, so this might make the villager approach you more. Wario's dair is amazing against characters whose up-b does not have any hitbox, it is also a multi-hit move which destroys the balloons as well as hit villager, so edge guarding should be a lot easier. Wario's aerial mobility is better than villager's, so use it to your advantage. As for the projectiles, the lloid rocket is easy to avoid, but also if you want to you can eat it and not take damage which is weird since it's an explosive.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Recover low against Villager or just ride straight into him from the air and you'll pretty much never get your Bike pocketed.

 

[Zionaze]

I feel like going low results in a turnip to the face. I always recover extra high and ive had no problems

 

[Sari]

I think we should get some more Villager mains here so we can see what the matchup is like from their point of view.

 

[shoff]

Recovering low will def result in turnips, nair, etc and an easy gimp. Villager can stay out there far longer than Wario. I would honestly let him have the bike vs risking the gimp and recover high. Usually villager cant chase him down and punish.

 

[Antonykun]

What in the world are you doing if you're getting hit by that.

You'd be surprised at how many people fall for that move. Its a very low risk move with plenty f reward so there no reason for villager to try it at least once per battle

 

[DtJ S2n]

Villager's f-smash isn't bad because of having so many good and unique properties to it, but it is slow and would be more likely to punish over aggressive characters than someone like Wario. Don't think it's relevant to the match-up discussion and probably won't be a factor unless you're just legitimately better than the Wario anyways.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Villager takes away your bike if you leave it onstage. So just don't leave your bike onstage against Villager. Just ride it, don't toss it at him.

Unrelated:
Has the Wario vs Pikachu MU been discussed? One of the MUs I want to get the most practice as Wario.

 

[Sari]

The problem with riding your bike onstage is you risk getting hit with an n-air or an f-air which will lead to an easy bike pocket. Riding it then jumping off immediately is better but depending on where you start riding it and where you jump off, the bike may sometimes stop on the stage. Using speeding bike is probably the best bike option against Villager since it'll almost always go offstage when you jump off of it.

 

[Zionaze]

if you get hit while your on your bike, the bike just goes crazy and flies off the field so there shouldnt be any problems

 

[Rucent]

The Sonic MU Thread is currently discussing about Wario! We'd like it if you give us your input on the match up Thank you!

http://smashboards.com/threads/soni...-chapter-13-wario.390575/page-7#post-19794711

 

[Jonathan michael]

Well, yes bike is dangerous on villager, if villager is camping at the edge, you are in a 50-50 scenario where you stay on the bike and hope he tries to pocket, or you get off the bike and hope he tries to use an offensive maneuver like fair or loyd. Also if you hit him with the bike while loyd is still coming out, you can put villager in an awkward position as you will be right next to villager, and all of villagers short range options are pretty dangerous on shield except for maybe f-tilt? Don't quote me on that. If he tries to run or jump away he will more than likely eating a forward air before he can get a slingshot out. Really villager's short range options kinda suck. Plus obviously there is waft of course. Run up shield is probably wario's safest option, but usually has little reward. Obviously a good villager will start punishing this right away though, so be ready to spot dodge. But most importantly, I have to disagree with villager's recovery being safe. It has no hit box, which means if wario grabs ledge at the right time, villager is limited to grabbing ledge from below or the side, in which case he will eat a down air and the process will repeat, or he will go back on stage which will get him into a bike setup or maybe even a forward smash if wario is fast enough. Obviously villager will throw out up airs and slingshots to get you out of his way but you just need to use ledge invincibility to its full potential. D-air off stage can also get villager stage spiked if he doesn't tech well which puts him in an even worse position. But on stage, wario can't do anything to get past the tree or loyd considering his coand grab becomes essentially useless and all of his approaching aerials are unsafe on shield, so wario will eat a grab combo or maybe even a bowling ball if he uses dair, and not to mention the kill throw. Plus even with the bike, wario is going to die off stage because if he gets hit off of it, he loses it until he stands on stage again. Something to keep in mind for this matchup though, is that the tree will add hit stun onto the waft, so you can catch villager off guard, providing you can get in safely. In my opinion this is 55-45 villager, at least. Villager conditions you to shield and uses the new buffs to rack up and then run until you you are at high enough percentage to get kill thrown. Wario has to be extremely careful using the bike, as well as jumping, but jumping goes said for all characters.

 

[Waymas]

This video might help a bit, i pretty much camped Villager the whole set, and i think is the way we should play it because you can get some Wafts ;3

 

[TheReflexWonder]

In a matchup where you can easily camp without taking damage, there's pretty much no reason not to; it can only help.

 

[Waymas]

Totally agree with @ TheReflexWonder , last day for Villager guys then we moving to Fox ;3

 

[Adrian Marin]

I fought a competent Villager main in a few friendly matches after a tournament and proceeded to play campy against him. I wasn't having any problems, but then he pocketed the bike consistently, even when it was flying uncontrollably (he'd literally go off-stage briefly just to pocket it,) so I think we might be underestimating Villager's pocket in this matchup. That said, Wario has no trouble with Villager in the neutral and can waft rather easily. I'm going to go with 50:50 here.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If you recover very high or very low, it should be almost impossible for him to Pocket the Bike. Just don't let go of it early; he has to make a conscious effort to either attack you or try to Pocket, and the latter is impossible if you're still riding it.

Like I said in an earlier post, though, it makes a lot more sense to go low than high; you just have to be aware of his potential attacks, and with his slow aerial speed, that's not especially hard.

 

[Waymas]

Let's move now to Fox! I think we need to discuss what stages should be banned and be picked from now on, that will help a ton. Also, gonna start putting links for the frame data of the characters that we are discussing.

 

[WRECK-IT MUNDO]

Now that Fox's jabs has been nerfed, Wario don't have to worry about the jab infinite anymore (which is good!). In the previous patch if Fox has me locked with his jab infinite, I spawn the bike ASAP to extend his hitbox which will give me enough time to shield or roll out of there, if I didn't have the bike, Fox could combo it into a Dsmash or maybe a Upsmash. Overall after the patch, I find this matchup kinda decent or good for Wario (While I don't play much against Fox though). Chomp and Bike are great moves against Fox, Chomp will eat him many times, Bike can be hell for Fox and it's funny that both Wario & Fox has the fastest dash attack in the game (and Luweegee). But I think there's one advantage that Fox has for this MU and that is speed. Fox has many fast moves while Wario has not many of them to take him out. Avoid standing front of his foxy face and you'll be alright. 55-45

 

[DavemanCozy]

This matchup's even. Wario used to lose before because of the jab lock being lulz, but now that's gone and it's good news for everyone in the cast.

I'll put more details here later.

 

[Adrian Marin]

I actually think Wario wins this matchup. Wario outranges him, has no problem camping against him, escapes his combos better than many other characters, all the while Wario pressures Fox with his bite and waft (Wario also gets to bike freely whenever Fox uses his laser, not that his laser is that important anyway.) It's also worth noting that Wario has an easy time edgeguarding in this matchup and can outright murder Fox by spamming the dash attack on the edge. Wario's heaviness also doesn't help Fox at all. I'm pretty sure Wario wins this one, but I have limited tournament experience with this matchup.