VOTE!: Custom Stages in Tournaments, your thoughts

[AlphaZealot]

So, I'm just curious what everyones thoughts are about using custom stages in tournaments.

A quick idea would simply be for the TO to release a stage or two a few months prior to the tournament, a stage that could either be remade or downloaded by players. That stage could then (somehow) be used in the tournament as a neutral/counter stage (my guess is counter stage in most cases).

So, for a tournament like BOMB 5, you might see
Random Stage 1
Random Stage 2
Random Stage 3
Random Stage 4
Random Stage 5
Random Stage 6
BOMB 5 Custom Stage 1

Counter Stage 1
Counter Stage 2
Counter Stage 3
Counter Stage 4
BOMB 5 Custom Stage 2

It would then be cool to compile a list somewhere on the forums about where to get different stages, so it could be like:

BOMB 5 Custom Stage 1
BOMB 5 Custom Stage 2
FC11 Custom Stage 1
FC11 Custom Stage 2
Pound 4 Custom Stage 1
Pound 4 Custom Stage 2
etc.

Some tournaments could even just borrow/reuse other tournaments custom stages.

The biggest problem is how to get the stages on everyones Wii at the tournament. Another problem is simply what kind of custom stages there should be, or if custom stages should be used at all. Frankly I think it could add a nice bit of spice, assuming that the custom stage is well made. TO's could even have the public vote on which custom stage they feel is most fair to play on (every stage will always have some sort of skew toward one character or another, keep in mind).

 

[peachori]

i was thinking about this too, and i think its a good idea, but i'm a little uncomfortable with how the stages may vary from tournament to tournament.

i think consistency in what stages are played in tournament does contribute to skill being the deciding factor, and i can easily see this turning into a situation where one region might frequently have tournaments using custom stage x while another uses custom stage y, etc. which would put people traveling to different regions for tourneys at a slight disadvantage. then again maybe a little "home court advantage" isnt really so bad.

a really useful incarnation of this would be to create cp stages for characters who dont seem to have good cp stages built in to the game, thus making them a bit more competitive. the last thing i'd like to see is a character who is already superb have a cp stage tailored to their liking, but i suppose the TO could always regulate that.

all in all i think its a good idea if and only if you have a TO you can trust to make good judgments (which, fortunately, we have in the community)

 

[Pierce7d]

Hmm, personally I feel that anything that wasn't in the actual creation of the game shouldn't really be allowed in competition, but may just be me.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Check out competitive Starcraft.

 

[Pierce7d]

(This post was in the wrong thread, so I'll change it to something relevant)

Plain and simply, we don't have enough time to look at all of the custom stages to determine whether or not they are neutral enough for an event. Even if we did, it's an annoying and unnecessary hassle. It's much fairer to use stages that everyone can have equal practice on.

Also, you can't really prepare to fight on a stage neither you or your opponent knows. It's a dangerous suggestion to say that we should be able to determine the better player by putting them both on a stage that is unfamiliar to both of them; and some characters are better suited on some stages than others. It's not fair if you don't even know what the viable character - stage options are.

 

[pikachun00b7]

I would hate to memorize stage match ups for one tournament.

And it makes the memorizing worse by naming it, "random stage one, random stage two... etc. "
Two or three random stages should be fine.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Oh...that was just a substitute because we don't know which stages will be random/counter yet so those are just fill in the blank sorta, I wasn't suggesting anything about how we would label things. Also, most tournaments currently have you memorizing random stages/counter stages.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

How about custom stages for counterpicks, not for random. Custom stages are more likely to be built to favor a group of characters than to attempt to be fair.

Random stages should only be standard looking, like Melee's random stages..

 

[peachori]

dont play starcraft, but i play dota so i see where you're coming from in terms of competitive games played (in the case of dota, exclusively) on a custom map. i somehow believe the distribution of a custom map for pc games is much easier than what we'll have for brawl, but that may also just be my preconceived notion from the past.

i agree as far as custom stages being only cps, but i'm not so sure about a TO throwing out some homebrew custom stage a few weeks before the tourney. i think if we're going to include custom cp stages it should be something discussed in the SBR and then approved. the back room can them drop/add custom stages from their "official list" as they see fit.

i say this mostly because i'd probably trust the SBR with my life.

 

[Sugata Designs]

If stages are going to be used in tournaments, they're probably going to be sponsored by MLG or EVO or whoever sponsors competitive Brawl in general, a la PGT/WGT maps on Starcraft. If custom stages are sponsored, they'll probably be offered for download somehow, as I'd hope whoever upkeeps the servers for Brawl would support tournament play. To summarize, whoever's Wii's were used at said tournaments would be required to have "Season" tourney maps on the system.

As for how they'd be picked, I'm not sure

 

[joenopride]

I think custom stages would be a great addition to tournaments just for the fact that the number of possible stages increases. The biggest issue would possibly be getting all the Wii's that are coming to the tournament to have the custom stages. If it turns out that you can transfer stage data via SD cards, I think it wouldn't be too difficult to set up a system where people can download the tournament specific stages via a shell site and then upload them to their Wii.

 

[Gerbil]

I think I like the spice factor it could add if there were stages built for counterpicking. It could offer a slight advantage to the uh "home crew" I guess you could call it. I find it would bring in the competition to try harder on an opponents home stage so you could say.

I wish I could elaborate more and post some concise thoughts, but I suck at this stuff sometimes lol.

 

[Sandwich]

Maybe, I think we need more time.
Maybe.

 

[YoYoBoY]

I believe custom stages will be critical to the competitive smash scene. Using the stage builder we should theoretically be able to create stages that give equal opportunity to all players.

Just like the accepted 4 stock, no items, and stage rules for SSBM, we should as a group determine a set of a few custom stages for tournaments. These can be distributed over the internet via SD cards as well as sent to people who don't have SD cards but need the stages.

It is not much of a hassle, and it will definitely increase the competitive experience.

 

[Zro]

i think this is a great idea... you can make certian stages from ssb64 or melee for brawl... and change the way certian brawl stages are... its like how halo is whereas the map will still be the same but the weapons placed in a certain way... for bad stages that have a problem with them... you could make a "clone" of the stage and fix it

 

[that 1 guy]

I think it would be good to have a panel to approve custom stages for tournament use. The only major problem I see is there isn't a very efficient way to make sure everyone can download the stages (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

 

[pootTheBox]

If we set some kind of system to diagram custom stages people could build it from the blueprint. Small inaccuracies might be a problem still. If the levels are pretty basic it would be easier to find flaws. I'm really excited about the potential use of custom stages as they could be a huge boost to fairness. Think of a random set of stages that would have more than one yoshi story type stage as well as the big DL64 kinda stage. The first stage i'm going to make is one identical to the default pokemon stadium setup.

 

[Peachkid]

i think that the ppl holding the tournament should make a few custom lvls and post it in a thread or sumthin

 

[CT Chia]

i personally think its a good idea

you should be able to make stages, save em to the sd card, and upload em online for ppl to DL and give directions on how to save them to their system. im going to be making a brawl stage database on my website www.followingrevolution.com, and I wouldn't mind hosting copies of these tournament custom stages for everyone on my server. as soon as i get my US copy of Brawl or extensive time with my friends JP version I'll look into it.

 

[Undrdog]

I think it would be good to recreate past stages without their gimmicks. Maybe something like Saffron City or a remake of the original Hyrule Castle. Have whatever remakes are approved made official (or at the very least generally accepted) and run with it.

However the draw back is that those without online connections would be left in the dark until the actual date of the tourney. Though this could also be seen as a way of fortifying the community and forcing people to "get together" more. lol

 

[thesage]

I think it would be good to recreate past stages without their gimmicks. Maybe something like Saffron City or a remake of the original Hyrule Castle. Have whatever remakes are approved made official (or at the very least generally accepted) and run with it.

However the draw back is that those without online connections would be left in the dark until the actual date of the tourney. Though this could also be seen as a way of fortifying the community and forcing people to "get together" more. lol

We could also recreate banned stages without the stuff that makes them banned. I really like jungle japes' layout. But they gayed it in brawl with the swimming to your death thing. We could recreate that stage and have it playable.

I think it woun't be hard to make "standard" custom stages as there seems to be a grid layout when making them.

 

[Dream Chaser]

The stage builder offers so many different variations that could be used for tounaments. This can only be a good thing, so long as there are official stages. Given that the game uses blocks to determine the spacing, everyone could build the stages with certainty that the stages are exactly the same.

The only thing is that there are some quite unbalanced stages that Ive seen. I think there would need to be some sort of official stage design for it to work.

 

[Milln]

I said it in the IRC, I'll say it here and in the other topic:

I think it'd be awesome if each of the major tournaments(and minor ones, of course) had their own custom stage that you'd only see --at that tournament-- . It'd be cool. Kinda like a... "flavor" of the tournament. Everyone would be briefed on the stage beforehand, or, at the very least, shown to them. Think about it; a tournament in New Jersey would be known for its spike hazards, a couple in California would be known for its rotary ferris wheels!

Copy/paste from the other topic. =o

 

[freeman123]

I'm just going to copy and paste what I said in another topic.

I don't think so. If someone lost a tournament on a stage that they'd never seen before, they probably wouldn't like it too much. People would complain that the creators of the stages would have an advantage because they've had time to become familiar with the stage.

Someone could easily design a stage that allows them to have a certain advantage by choosing a specific character or doing a specific thing, it could go unnoticed by the people who judge which stages should be allowed, and then that person could take advantage of some cheap tactic that only they know about.

If they allow custom stages, the people who made the stages shouldn't be allowed to play in tournaments where those stages are legal. Also, there should be a website that shows all tournament custom stages at least a month or so before they start showing up in tournaments. That way, people can make the stages themselves and play on them before they go to a tournament. Also, I don't think any custom stage should be chosen in a match if either player doesn't agree to it.

 

[Firestorm88]

I'm sort of for and against this idea. I think we should stick with the game as far as standard stages go. However, I wouldn't be entirely opposed to recreating older stages like Yoshis Island and Dreamland 64. Especially considering the amount of valid stages in Brawl for tourney play looks like it might turn out lower than Melee. There's quite a few stages with hazards that seem like they'd be "annoying" (to say the least) in competitive play.

We could go the Halo 3 route as well where they just modify the original maps and tweak them to be more balanced, but we can't really do that since Stage Editor isn't as well-featured as Forge.

 

[shadydentist]

Its really up to tournament director's discretion, but having tournament-specific stages sounds like fun.

 

[G-X]

I think there should be some tournament-legal custom stages. But only the simple ones.

 

[thesage]

I think there should be a specific set added to tournaments if enough of the regular stages in brawl get banned. They can be counterpickable.

We could also recreate past stages too.

 

[anonymous_joe]

I personally believe that the number of fair stages in the game itself is upsetting. That being said I think the big TO's that organize the big tournaments (IE Pound, OC, FC, MLG etc.) should be the ones to create the custom stages that they deem fair and post a picture of them on SWF so everyone can make them beforehand to learn to play them. Eventually over time there will probably be custom maps that everyone has that are considered neutral and added to the neutral list. Same with CP boards.

 

[LordLocke]

I don't see it happening.

People cry for a removal of 4/5ths of the game's included stages, but willing to allow for user-created content which can be skewed any number of ways?

If you're making neutral stages, Brawl already has those- a decent number of them, in fact, in many different shapes and sizes. What's the point?

If you're making anything else, then I can only see it being included if the stage roster stays larger (A lot larger) then Melee's did. Considering the baw-fest that happened that eventually got the stage roster sliced to ribbons in Melee (although it had a number re-added later on as counter-pick options after it was found that people like to exaggerate), I don't see it, and thus user-created content will probably be banned on reflex. The sole exception I see is if something like the MLG (assuming it picks up Brawl as a game the season after the upcoming one) puts out a selection of levels and provides the design specs for people to copy for their own use.

Stage creation looks sexy, but I don't see it being used much for Tournament Brawl unless a major problem is found with most of Brawl's neutral/near-neutral levels.

That said, in many cases where I say something pessimistic based on the general Smash community, I'd love to be proven wrong.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I think this needs a little more time. I have an Idea. How about 10 days or more before a tournament, weekly, or smashfest is held, have selected people and tournament hosts(most likely from the BR) play and test selected custom stages to determine whether it is suitabe for a counterpick or not. There should also be a limit on how many stages will be permitted like" Only 10 Custom Stages will be Selected with the exception of recreations of past stages".

 

[usea]

One thing that the custom stage builder made me hopeful for was a static first stage in tournaments. I believe that tournaments would be much better off if the first stage of every set was always the same thing. Often times a set goes one way or the other depending on what came up as the random stage. If everybody went into the tournament knowing what the first stage would be, they could prepare and there would be no random element to it.

I think that the opening stage would be a great place for custom stages.

 

[S2]

While I think the idea of using custom stages is good...

I think the headache from trying to get players to agree on custom stages is going to be bad.

Unlike the regular stages, which will probably be allowed or banned based on their designs... I get the feeling players are going to be against certain custom stages not because they aren't fair, but because they aren't endorsed officially (and everyone has favorite stages).

To explain...

if someone hosts a tournament and there is a completely fair custom map, but he happens to dislike it, I coubt he's going to have it enabled. Looking at how people like/dislike even the more neutral Melee stages, I think getting all tournament organizers to agree on a certain custom stage is going to be hard. Especially when the US version comes out and we start seeing a huge amount of "neutral" style custom stages coming from players all over the boards.

It would take a really big endorsement to make one stick, maybe like an official MLG endorsement or something. I'm not even sure if everyone would agree on something if the Smash Backroom endorsed something - if that were the case I'd be sure that there would have been backroom players being vocal on both sides of an endorsement.

Maybe I'll get proven wrong, I don't really care. It doesn't matter to me personally. I'm just pointing out that its hard enough to get players to agree on any type of tournament ruleset. Anyone who watched Melee grow knows that it took years to get the final MLG ruleset that everyone uses now. And that was a compromise from a variety of different tournament rules that varied from region to region in the first couple of years.

If I have to make a prediction though... if any custom stage does get an endorsement it'll probably be a VERY good remake of a classic stage. As opposed to just an awesome new creation.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Meh, if it was possible to pull off,some cool stuff could be made, but it seems like too big of a hassle, you know?

Maybe later in the future, but definitely not right off the bat. Especially with all the bickering that will start just with normal stages.

 

[usea]

S2 why do tournament organizers have to agree on a custom stage? That's the whole point, a tournament can have its own custom stage revealed well before hand. When TG9 is announced, they include the date, location, rules, and any custom stages they're using. You can recreate or download the TG9 custom stage months before the tournament to see what you think about it.

Not all tournaments have to have identical rules or stages. In a game like smash, especially in the first year or two, that would be really unhealthy.

 

[BloodMagnumX]

This honestly could work, as each tournament is a little different, and there could be even themed tournaments, like a "Rumble in the Jungle," with the levels all looking like they came right out of Donkey Kong Country. As for players having not practiced the stage, not knowing the level puts the players on more equal terms. Say, for example, a tournament is held in Georgia, with a level shaped like a peach, yet none of the competitors have played it. A player that has only played FD for a month and a guy that practiced all the levels have an equal chance at doing well.

Stage creation can also lead to new modes. What if the community comes up with a level that allows for tag-team matches? Or one that tests your skills in dodging moving hazards in the level? Granted, these aren't normal conditions (or generally accepted ones at that), but Smash can open up in so many new ways! It's a great medium for skill and creative abilities, but it seems caught under the iron fist of uniform thinking. Mull that over for a little while.

 

[IGN Forums]

nice idea!!!!

 

[Bailey]

If you can make a good custom stage that isn't like Big Blue and more like let's say Pokemon Stadium 1 and not change then I am all for it.

 

[Firestorm88]

This honestly could work, as each tournament is a little different, and there could be even themed tournaments, like a "Rumble in the Jungle," with the levels all looking like they came right out of Donkey Kong Country. As for players having not practiced the stage, not knowing the level puts the players on more equal terms. Say, for example, a tournament is held in Georgia, with a level shaped like a peach, yet none of the competitors have played it. A player that has only played FD for a month and a guy that practiced all the levels have an equal chance at doing well.

Stage creation can also lead to new modes. What if the community comes up with a level that allows for tag-team matches? Or one that tests your skills in dodging moving hazards in the level? Granted, these aren't normal conditions (or generally accepted ones at that), but Smash can open up in so many new ways! It's a great medium for skill and creative abilities, but it seems caught under the iron fist of uniform thinking. Mull that over for a little while.

What you're proposing is not equal terms. It's negating knowledge of the game. If one person knows all the stages better and one person only knows Final Destination, then the person who knows all the stages SHOULD have an advantage. Putting them on equal grounds is just punishing the better player for no reason. This is a tournament. It's to reward skill and knowledge of the game. It is not to decide the winner with a roll of the dice.

One thing that the custom stage builder made me hopeful for was a static first stage in tournaments. I believe that tournaments would be much better off if the first stage of every set was always the same thing. Often times a set goes one way or the other depending on what came up as the random stage. If everybody went into the tournament knowing what the first stage would be, they could prepare and there would be no random element to it.

I think that the opening stage would be a great place for custom stages.

The thing is, couldn't we just use a regular stage as the first stage? Like, let's say Castle Siege. It changed into three different types of stages in a set order (not random like Pokemon Stadium) so no one character has an advantage in the terrain. I don't think we really need a custom stage to do that. Although personally I do like the current system.

 

[T-major]

I think this would be a good idea. it would allow for a lot of possible fun stages layouts that aren't in brawl's normal stages.