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Can't help but think this comment went unnoticed. I mean, if Mario's top ten and loses to five prominent characters, then Pit would at least be right by him since he loses to the same amount of characters at worst. (Not a lot of agreement on our bad matchups so it's not really worth going into detail.) I understand that Pit's not usually put in top ten because of his lack of representation, of course.
You're right about lacking consistent ways to kill... Or rather, lacking research into killing. He could very well have real kill setups that just haven't been found.
Well, hopefully Pit gets some time in the limelight with Earth coming to Genesis. He's just not being played because people aren't playing him, as stupid as it is...
To clarify a little bit, I don't think Pit has a shot at top 10, just that if Nairo used him there would be a lot of people thinking in this way. I do think he could definitely be somewhere between 12th-17th among Villager, Falcon, Wario, Luigi, Yoshi and Ike though, but I wouldn't necessarily dare to set that as his position into a tier list quite yet. The way I see it from almost pure theorizing is that Pit has no clear weaknesses but just needs to work a bit too hard to close off stocks either with smashes, very high % kill moves or edgeguards, and I think he's very similar to Pikachu in this regard, Pit just doesn't need to worry about dying for his commitments quite as much. Despite the lack of glaring weaknesses, I don't see what kind of a niche he would fill in terms of matchups as I personally can't see how he would either lose or win many/any matchups that strongly. If Pit's fthrow and bair for instance were a bit stronger I think he'd do a lot better, although like said I think he's good. Just doesn't stand out from the rest of them.
Ok imma ask this and sound like a scrub
How do you even edgeguard Mario? He has amazing airspeed, frame speed, AND an frame 3 invincible up b.
I'm a villager main who prides himself in being able to edgeguard people but Mario always stops me cold.
Mario only has one real recovery option and none of his aerials lend themselves well to beating stuff out IMO which is way more important than speed when it comes to edgeguard situations. He does have Up-B to smack edgeguarders but if he's in a position where that won't get him close enough to the stage to recover he's in trouble. Cape and Fireballs are gimmicks more or less.
And as A2 said lingering hitboxes eat SJP, especially powerful horizontal ones. The intangibility is only on Frame 3.
His recovery isn't bad, but it's nothing special either.
I've never understood how the fact that a character is only played by one high level player somehow invalidates what the character has been shown to be capable of
See the thing is, at top level play, smash is more about player vs player than about character vs character. Zero vs Nairo isn't Sheik vs ZSS. This means that matchups are incredibly dynamic and an amazing player can make his efforts look like things a character can do normally. This is why a factor of how viable a character is to see if their results are reproducible by multiple people.
I thought tier lists were supposed to show how good characters are. Just because only one player does it doesn't change the fact that the character has that kind of potential.
Also, it's not like other high level players main Pikachu. If you had a bunch of high level players playing him, and getting noticeably worse results than with their other characters than maybe you'd have a point. But the reality is the only high level player who plays Pika does very well with him.
Yet again, I will mention Nakat. He's been using Pikachu as a secondary for his Fox and Ness for months and managed to take a game off of ZeRo in the first match on Top 32 at MLG. It's not just Esam doing magic to give Pikachu results. Pika's character traits, combined with Esam and Nakat's performances make him top tier.
To clarify a little bit, I don't think Pit has a shot at top 10, just that if Nairo used him there would be a lot of people thinking in this way. I do think he could definitely be somewhere between 12th-17th among Villager, Falcon, Wario, Luigi, Yoshi and Ike though, but I wouldn't necessarily dare to set that as his position into a tier list quite yet. The way I see it from almost pure theorizing is that Pit has no clear weaknesses but just needs to work a bit too hard to close off stocks either with smashes, very high % kill moves or edgeguards, and I think he's very similar to Pikachu in this regard, Pit just doesn't need to worry about dying for his commitments quite as much. Despite the lack of glaring weaknesses, I don't see what kind of a niche he would fill in terms of matchups as I personally can't see how he would either lose or win many/any matchups that strongly. If Pit's fthrow and bair for instance were a bit stronger I think he'd do a lot better, although like said I think he's good. Just doesn't stand out from the rest of them.
Yeah, I get what you're saying. I think it's notable how Pit can go toe-to-toe with such a wide variety of characters, and he'd make a really great secondary for any character because of it. You just don't see him used ever and it makes everything he has look like theory...
We are a year into the game. People have been hailing Pikachu as a top 5 threat for a long long time. Basically every other character considered top/high tier has multiple high level mains. As time goes on, we get more evidence that ESAM is succeeding not because Pikachu is this fantastic character, but because he's just an amazing player.
On the topic of Pikachu, we talk often about how amazing his offstage game is, but how good is he about closing stocks against characters that can avoid getting gimped by him? Is his only kill setup u-throw -> thunder? I know ESAM says that as long as you read the DI its unavoidable, but he seems to miss it quite often.
Pikachu has trouble getting stocks for more than just that.
His approaches are unsafe. His main way to approach is with aerials, which all have very high landing lag for his speed and leave him open. QA is great, but can be beaten. Characters with good anti-QA moves are good against Pikachu, like Ike or the Plumbers.
His main way to kill is via up-smash, which is fairly fast at 12 frames, but like all his moves, have very bad range due to his total lack of range/disjoints on his attacks. Up-Throw Thunder might be unavoidable according to ESAM, but why doesn't he hit it all the time in matches? Does he mess up DI reads or is he just wrong?
I don't even look on the internet for actual Pikachu discussion. Everywhere thinks that Pikachu wins way harder in MUs where he doesn't.
Pretty sure you can't just read DI on Uthrow Thunder. How can Pikachu move forward quickly enough to actually land the Thunder on DI? Dash forward Thunder takes at least 10 frames (I think, could be more) while Pika finishes his initial dash animation, which gives people time to airdodge and they might simply get launched too high for Thunder to hit. Jump forward Thunder will cause the bolt to miss Pikachu, so the opponent won't die and can tech + punish on hit.
For this list ( since I only specified Mii's moves and we just had MLG) it's meant to be only average height and weight. The next list will probably allow sizes.
See the thing is, at top level play, smash is more about player vs player than about character vs character. Zero vs Nairo isn't Sheik vs ZSS. This means that matchups are incredibly dynamic and an amazing player can make his efforts look like things a character can do normally. This is why a factor of how viable a character is to see if their results are reproducible by multiple people.
Pretty sure you can't just read DI on Uthrow Thunder. How can Pikachu move forward quickly enough to actually land the Thunder on DI? Dash forward Thunder takes at least 10 frames (I think, could be more) while Pika finishes his initial dash animation, which gives people time to airdodge and they might simply get launched too high for Thunder to hit. Jump forward Thunder will cause the bolt to miss Pikachu, so the opponent won't die and can tech + punish on hit.
So a few pages ago someone asked about Jigglypuff matchups. I'm not a so don't take my opinion with any authority but I thought I might get the ball rolling to provide a base, and then people can feel free to disprove/discredit me.
Characters that I think are at least even or close to even for Jigglypuff
1) If you're a big-body character and you don't have the relatively swift frame data and sword of an Ike, you have to constantly be on the lookout for rest. This also includes ROB and Mewtwo, but less so because of their zoning games.
2) Based on personal experience, Jigglypuff is kind of a pain for Mewtwo to fight. Mewtwo's best neutral is d-tilt and it's almost never a factor because Jigglypuff is always in the air.
3) For somewhat similar reasons as above, I've included Captain Falcon, Roy, and to some extent Dr. Mario. The main factors contributing to this are that Jigglypuff's tendency to stay airborne ignores the neutral-shattering Falcon dash grab (which Roy does not have but he at least has a sword), that Captain Falcon and Roy are fast fallers and relatively easy to juggle, Jigglypuff is light-weight and floaty and therefore difficult to juggle in return, and the three of them are especially vulnerable to edgeguarding.
4) Little Mac I'm not sure about, mainly because super armor oh god, but his vulnerability to edgeguarding has to be taken into account right?
5) Yoshi I think is a special case, because while he can go toe to toe with Jiggly in terms of mobility, he suffers from having not the greatest OoS options. On top of that, if Yoshi loses his 2nd jump it's a big problem, and Jigglypuff CAN outspace his small disjoints. Obviously Yoshi has the advantage in power, but his lack of reliable kill setups can hurt him here, and he still kind of counts as a big body.
6) Kirby and G&W I think are much closer to actually even than not, and a lot of it has to do with the fact that they operate under somewhat similar game plans as Jiggly, exchanging either jumps or air speed for some added kill power.
7) Lucario's neutral isn't the best and he relies on aura to really land kills. This potentially makes him a prime target for getting rested.
Up tilt IS the answer, but it extends his hurtbox in ways that Jigglypuff can hit with its weird hitboxes. Mewtwo can also play a runaway game, but it's not super fun.
Yoshi has fine OoS options. Invincible upsmash, frame 3 nair and a strong uair. He can't shield grab well, but thats not something that happens to jiggs anyway.
Yoshi losing his double jump isn't something that you can just count on. He can use eggs jumps to hover/rise a couple of times and he still has DJ airdodging/nairing and down B to the ledge. Yoshi is almost just a bigger, stronger, better jiggs and I don't see anything going for her in the matchup.
Yoshi has fine OoS options. Invincible upsmash, frame 3 nair and a strong uair. He can't shield grab well, but thats not something that happens to jiggs anyway.
Yoshi losing his double jump isn't something that you can just count on. He can use eggs jumps to hover/rise a couple of times and he still has DJ airdodging/nairing and down B to the ledge. Yoshi is almost just a bigger, stronger, better jiggs and I don't see anything going for her in the matchup.
So a few pages ago someone asked about Jigglypuff matchups. I'm not a so don't take my opinion with any authority but I thought I might get the ball rolling to provide a base, and then people can feel free to disprove/discredit me.
Characters that I think are at least even or close to even for Jigglypuff
1) If you're a big-body character and you don't have the relatively swift frame data and sword of an Ike, you have to constantly be on the lookout for rest. This also includes ROB and Mewtwo, but less so because of their zoning games.
2) Based on personal experience, Jigglypuff is kind of a pain for Mewtwo to fight. Mewtwo's best neutral is d-tilt and it's almost never a factor because Jigglypuff is always in the air.
3) For somewhat similar reasons as above, I've included Captain Falcon, Roy, and to some extent Dr. Mario. The main factors contributing to this are that Jigglypuff's tendency to stay airborne ignores the neutral-shattering Falcon dash grab (which Roy does not have but he at least has a sword), that Captain Falcon and Roy are fast fallers and relatively easy to juggle, Jigglypuff is light-weight and floaty and therefore difficult to juggle in return, and the three of them are especially vulnerable to edgeguarding.
4) Little Mac I'm not sure about, mainly because super armor oh god, but his vulnerability to edgeguarding has to be taken into account right?
5) Yoshi I think is a special case, because while he can go toe to toe with Jiggly in terms of mobility, he suffers from having not the greatest OoS options. On top of that, if Yoshi loses his 2nd jump it's a big problem, and Jigglypuff CAN outspace his small disjoints. Obviously Yoshi has the advantage in power, but his lack of reliable kill setups can hurt him here, and he still kind of counts as a big body.
6) Kirby and G&W I think are much closer to actually even than not, and a lot of it has to do with the fact that they operate under somewhat similar game plans as Jiggly, exchanging either jumps or air speed for some added kill power.
7) Lucario's neutral isn't the best and he relies on aura to really land kills. This potentially makes him a prime target for getting rested.
Can't speak for most of those characters, but Lucario doesn't really fear Puff. His mediocre neutral is more against campers, and Jigglypuff has to approach, from the air, to get damage. In the air, she is vulnerable to fair, one of Lucario's better attacks. The biggest problem is that in the air, your defensive options are limited, so it is far easier to bait air dodges or attacks that can be punished by Aura Sphere, back air, or up air for kills.
The match up is a lot better now that shield grabbing is no longer a polarizing option, but Lucario still wins this one
By the way, did anyone notice that Scatt did the most STREET FIGHTER SHOTO THING EVER to Manny/Heero's Sonic at MLG?
He literally threw the Leaf Shield to get Sonic to jump over, and then uppercutted him out the sky, taking advantage of the improved recovery time on Leaf Shield.
So a few pages ago someone asked about Jigglypuff matchups. I'm not a so don't take my opinion with any authority but I thought I might get the ball rolling to provide a base, and then people can feel free to disprove/discredit me.
Characters that I think are at least even or close to even for Jigglypuff
1) If you're a big-body character and you don't have the relatively swift frame data and sword of an Ike, you have to constantly be on the lookout for rest. This also includes ROB and Mewtwo, but less so because of their zoning games.
2) Based on personal experience, Jigglypuff is kind of a pain for Mewtwo to fight. Mewtwo's best neutral is d-tilt and it's almost never a factor because Jigglypuff is always in the air.
3) For somewhat similar reasons as above, I've included Captain Falcon, Roy, and to some extent Dr. Mario. The main factors contributing to this are that Jigglypuff's tendency to stay airborne ignores the neutral-shattering Falcon dash grab (which Roy does not have but he at least has a sword), that Captain Falcon and Roy are fast fallers and relatively easy to juggle, Jigglypuff is light-weight and floaty and therefore difficult to juggle in return, and the three of them are especially vulnerable to edgeguarding.
4) Little Mac I'm not sure about, mainly because super armor oh god, but his vulnerability to edgeguarding has to be taken into account right?
5) Yoshi I think is a special case, because while he can go toe to toe with Jiggly in terms of mobility, he suffers from having not the greatest OoS options. On top of that, if Yoshi loses his 2nd jump it's a big problem, and Jigglypuff CAN outspace his small disjoints. Obviously Yoshi has the advantage in power, but his lack of reliable kill setups can hurt him here, and he still kind of counts as a big body.
6) Kirby and G&W I think are much closer to actually even than not, and a lot of it has to do with the fact that they operate under somewhat similar game plans as Jiggly, exchanging either jumps or air speed for some added kill power.
7) Lucario's neutral isn't the best and he relies on aura to really land kills. This potentially makes him a prime target for getting rested.
From my experience, Doc vs Jigglypuff isn't too hard for Doc. The access to Pills, even if they are a bit laggy for projectiles, allows us to force Jigglypuff to commit to something. From this point, it's just a game of " Guess which Out of Shield option Doc will use on you " as soon as anything mispaced from Jigglypuff. It doesn't help that, being a floaty, Jigglypuff is affected by Doc's Jab Cancel kill setups, most notably Jab into UpB & Usmash, which in the right situation, might result in Jigglypuff losing her stock quickly. Also, Doc's lower aerial traction than Mario doesn't play in Puff's favor.
As mentionned, Jigglypuff's main point is exploiting Doc's disadvantage state to get some early gimps, or just gimps in general. It is true that we are very prone to edgeguards as Doc, but taking us offstage won't be that easy, especially with that Frame 3 UpB/Nair punishing attempts to carry us offstage with something not guarranted.
By the way, did anyone notice that Scatt did the most STREET FIGHTER SHOTO THING EVER to Manny/Heero's Sonic at MLG?
He literally threw the Leaf Shield to get Sonic to jump over, and then uppercutted him out the sky, taking advantage of the improved recovery time on Leaf Shield.
, he's got positive matchups against the following characters.
He is a safe character. He can float in his opponent's faces, yet their attacks won't hit. He can bait them out and land punishes using aerials, something consistent throughout matches.
The thing with those guys is, aside from lacking good recovery (especially Mac and Dorf) and thus being susceptible to the wall of pain, they must approach no matter what. When floating, Jiggs controls the air, and thus anti-air is in no way guaranteed. He has great punishing game. Pound is also a good move due to high shield damage, fifteen frame duration, and surprising range for a physical. It even acts similarly to a slow projectile. Due to Jigglypuff's short and stubby limbs, he really needs to get a punish for his hits. Mainly, the opponent will strike with forward tilt/smash. When this happens, Jiggs can simply air dodge and follow up with a forward aerial, possibly even a Rest for the higher level players. With proper use of air dodging, as well as proper dodge baiting, Jigglypuff can be very tricky to fight. DI also doesn't help much against his wall of pain.
He has a massive Fair that auto-cancels. He can just use that all day while you try to bait only to find you have nothing to punish at all. Or Nair with almost no landing lag. Or Uair with massive amounts of lingering frames and very low landing lag. Or just empty hop and watch Jigglypuff flinch early because she has to respect the potential range of his moves compared to hers and evade, and then punish the flinch.
Wall of Pain is annoying and is what keeps the MU close for Jigglypuff, but Jigglypuff dies if Ike grabs her at mid range percents. She slips up at all she's potentially dead at almost any %. She doesn't have that factor on Ike, she's not going to be able to weave in enough and hit him with rest without him having time to react. Its not like we're randomly flailing around with Fsmash. And even if she does land rest: Ike's fairly heavy. He ain't die at super low percents.
Jigglypuff can wreck Ike pretty hard online to be sure, but offline? Not so much. Fairly even MU, slightly Ike's favour due to more consistent threat of a kill.
Rest does not make up for the fact that you have the deadliest character in the game vs the lightest character in the game. Nor does airspeed allow her to beat Ganondorf's ridiculously huge aerials. It's probably Ganon's best matchup to be honest.
as of the matchup it's either even or slightly in fox's favor
Fox has a better neutral and has ways to punish spindash
That being said most people who say that it's in fox's favor are sonic mains like @Gheb_01 and @DavemanCozy mentioned beforehand
Speaking of Fox I notice alot of fox guides on smashboards are out of date.
Not saying those guides are terrible but alot of fox guides don't even mention fox's jab nerf.
As a fellow fox main myself I think it should make an up to date that'll help the next generation of future fox mains
Whether there Star fox fans, Prideful warriors, or complete **** boyz I will make it my sole duty to make a casual fox main into a killing machine that will be beating the crap out of every person at a local, or a regional, hell maybe even a national.
Here's a Matchup spread that I plan on using for my guide
Please keep in mind this is the character's in this matchup spread will be the greatest threats from Shaya
characters ratings list all the way back at the fist page anyother character that's below will not be used.
edit: the only exceptions being and
also this isn't a tier list.
edit 2: moved rosalina to -1
-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
+1:/
+2:
+3:
If anyone has any disagreements and would like to put in any corrections/express there opinions for the matchups shown here then your more then happy to oblige
Note:I know nothing about I mean he's not discussed much nor is he seen much in tournaments so if anyone has any knowledge on the Olimar vs Fox matchup and put in there input on the matchup then that would be great.
Olimar probably has some mean, unexplored combos on fox. Actually, everyone probably does since he apparently takes more knockback to compensate for his high gravity (ever notice he doesnt ****ing die off the top like he should in melee? They added this to fix that, and as a result more knockback means more hitstun, check out the mechanics and techniques threads most recent page)
Yoshi has fine OoS options. Invincible upsmash, frame 3 nair and a strong uair. He can't shield grab well, but thats not something that happens to jiggs anyway.
I just realized that of all the flip kick Up Smashers, Falco's the only one without partial invincibility. Fox, Kirby, Mii Brawler, and Yoshi are the other flip kick Up Smashers... They also all do backflips unlike Falco... I call front flip discrimination. Meanwhile, the headbutt bros. and sis, (Dr.) Mario, Luigi, Wario, Rosalina, and Mr. Game & Watch, all have invincible headtbutt Up Smashes. Add in Bowser, Charizard?, and DK's Uairs and there you go... All headbutts; all invincible. >_>
Anyway, Yoshi's is invincible for the clean hit, frames 11-13, while the late hit, frames 14-16, don't have any invincibility. Likewise, Mii Brawler's is invincible for its clean hit, frames 8-11, and the late hit 12-14 doesn't. Fox's on the other hand, is invincible from frames 1-9 which is 7 frames before it hits on frame 8 and the late hit, frames 10-11, doesn't have invincibility. Kirby's the "lucky" one whose Up Smash is entirely invincible from frames 14-19. Raw frame data-wise, Yoshi's does 14% clean and 12% late both with 37 base, 95 growth, and launches at 75 degrees with 46 total frames, Mii Brawler's does 14% clean and 10% late both with 32 base, 93 growth, and launches at 84 degrees with I couldn't find total frames for them, Fox's does 16% sweet-spotted or 14% clean that does 30 base, 94 growth, and launches at 80 degrees or 11% late that does 10 base, 100 growth, and launches at 361 or Sakurai degrees, and Kirby's does 15% or 14%, 34 base for the 15% hit or 30 for the 14% hit, 96 growth, and launches at 75 degrees on frame 14, 14% or 12%, 20 base, 96 growth, and launches at 88 degrees on frame 15-16, and 12% or 11%, 10 base, 50 growth, and launches at 50 degrees on frame 17-19. They really did give Yoshi a (pre-Smash 4) Falco Up Smash that does 4% more clean, 3% more late, has 3 less active frame, and has 2 more total frames.
Weird thing I don't get is why some moves are only invincible on-hit while others are invincible on before and/or during hits, especially for similar moves like Falco's Down Smash is only invincible 4 frames before it hits while Fox's is only invincible when it hits or how Fox, Mii Brawler, and Yoshi basically have the same Up Smashes, but only Fox's is invincible from frame 1 to the rest of the clean hit while Mii Brawler and Yoshi's are only invincible upon startup and the rest of their clean hits. Or how similar moves are blatantly better than the other characters like how Falco and Luigi have much lower recovery on their Down Smashes than Fox and Mario with Luigi's doing more noticeable damage; Falco's has 46 total frames to Fox's 52 and Luigi's has 37 total frames to Mario's 43. I get that they don't want Fox to abuse a safe Down Smash, but what about Mario and Luigi? Mario's not significantly faster on the ground than Fox is to Falco and even then, most Down Smashes aren't that strong in terms of raw power or versatility, so there shouldn't really be an issue for Mario to have say, 37 total frames on his weak Down Smash like Luigi (or even for them to swap total frames).
I don't think Jigglypuff wins a single match-up in this game. She just doesn't have the reward to justify how quickly she dies, especially considering Rest will more often than not get punished on KO.
Her frame data is also unimpressive, her fastest moves being a frame 5 jab and a frame 6 nair. The latter is particularly stupid; Jigglypuff is supposed to excel in the air, and yet multiple characters' air games outclass her's anyway, along with being superior on the ground. Furthermore, any character with the slightest disjoint can safely challenge her aerials. She's supposed to be the antithesis of Little Mac, but they forgot to make her actually threatening in the air.
I don't think Jigglypuff wins a single match-up in this game. She just doesn't have the reward to justify how quickly she dies, especially considering Rest will more often than not get punished on KO.
Her frame data is also unimpressive, her fastest moves being a frame 5 jab and a frame 6 nair. The latter is particularly stupid; Jigglypuff is supposed to excel in the air, and yet multiple characters' air games outclass her's anyway, along with being superior on the ground. Furthermore, any character with the slightest disjoint can safely challenge her aerials. She's supposed to be the antithesis of Little Mac, but they forgot to make her actually threatening in the air.
Which is exactly why I don't think she's even against Kirby or G&W. Kirby has more reliable/punishing tools (B-Air, B-Throw), ground movement/combat, much superior frame data on the ground, and can punish her much easier compared to other characters with his grabs thanks to her somehow having even worse range than him.
I'm not even sure what she can do against G&W; G&W's disjointed aerials can pretty much challenge anything she does in the air, boasts a superior ground game, and she pretty much has to respect his up smash more than any other character in the game.
Kirby's up smash is also partially invincible (surprisingly); though, it has 14 frames of start-up and the same amount of cool down as Mario's (WHY), so I'm sure people won't be getting hit by his nearly as much as other flip-kicks.
The funny thing is that it seems like it's the only flip kick that has partial invincibility during the entire duration of the attack itself, not the start-up or end-lag.
Which is exactly why I don't think she's even against Kirby or G&W. Kirby has more reliable/punishing tools (B-Air, B-Throw), ground movement/combat, much superior frame data on the ground, and can punish her much easier compared to other characters with his grabs thanks to her somehow having even worse range than him. Even his aerials are arguably better in some areas despite their 10+ frames of start-up thanks to having at least 3+ less frames of landing lag compared to her moves, which even then aren't stellar in their start-ups (Frame 6 N-Air with 15 frames of landing lag when Luigi's Frame 3 N-Air has 14 frames of landing lag wtf)
I'm not even sure what she can do against G&W; G&W's disjointed aerials can pretty much challenge anything she does in the air, boasts a superior ground game, and she pretty much has to respect his up smash more than any other character in the game.
as of the matchup it's either even or slightly in fox's favor
Fox has a better neutral and has ways to punish spindash
That being said most people who say that it's in fox's favor are sonic mains like @Gheb_01 and @DavemanCozy
Speaking of Fox I notice alot of fox guides on smashboards are out of date.
Not saying those guides are terrible but alot of fox guides don't even mention fox's jab nerf.
As a fellow fox main myself I think it should make an up to date that'll help the next generation of future fox mains
Whether there Star fox fans, Prideful warriors, or complete **** boyz I will make it my sole duty to make a casual fox main into a killing machine that will be beating the crap out of every person at a local, or a regional, hell maybe even a national.
Here's a Matchup spread that I plan on using for my guide
Please keep in mind this is the character's in this matchup spread will be the greatest threats from Shaya
characters ratings list all the way back at the fist page anyother character that's below will not be used.
also this isn't a tier list.
-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
+1:/
+2:
+3:
If anyone has any disagreements and would like to put in any corrections/express there opinions for the matchups shown here then your more then happy to oblige
Note:I know nothing about I mean he's not discussed much nor is he seen much in tournaments so if anyone has any knowledge on the Olimar vs Fox matchup and put in there input on the matchup then that would be great.
I do hope they try to buff her aerials, then (one can only hope); I genuinely like playing the character, but I can't see her getting anywhere the way she is when her aerial game is not even that great compared to other characters.
Ehhh... again I'm not a Jigglypuff player, and I don't exactly disagree with her placement on tier lists, but when is Jigglypuff ever actually affected by landing lag? She's so floaty and has such strong aerial control that even if you don't autocancel the aerials you're already weaving away from the opponent.
I just realized that of all the flip kick Up Smashers, Falco's the only one without partial invincibility. Fox, Kirby, Mii Brawler, and Yoshi are the other flip kick Up Smashers... They also all do backflips unlike Falco... I call front flip discrimination. Meanwhile, the headbutt bros. and sis, (Dr.) Mario, Luigi, Wario, Rosalina, and Mr. Game & Watch, all have invincible headtbutt Up Smashes. Add in Bowser, Charizard?, and DK's Uairs and there you go... All headbutts; all invincible. >_>
Anyway, Yoshi's is invincible for the clean hit, frames 11-13, while the late hit, frames 14-16, don't have any invincibility. Likewise, Mii Brawler's is invincible for its clean hit, frames 8-11, and the late hit 12-14 doesn't. Fox's on the other hand, is invincible from frames 1-9 which is 7 frames before it hits on frame 8 and the late hit, frames 10-11, doesn't have invincibility. Kirby's the "lucky" one whose Up Smash is entirely invincible from frames 14-19. Raw frame data-wise, Yoshi's does 14% clean and 12% late both with 37 base, 95 growth, and launches at 75 degrees with 46 total frames, Mii Brawler's does 14% clean and 10% late both with 32 base, 93 growth, and launches at 84 degrees with I couldn't find total frames for them, Fox's does 16% sweet-spotted or 14% clean that does 30 base, 94 growth, and launches at 80 degrees or 11% late that does 10 base, 100 growth, and launches at 361 or Sakurai degrees, and Kirby's does 15% or 14%, 34 base for the 15% hit or 30 for the 14% hit, 96 growth, and launches at 75 degrees on frame 14, 14% or 12%, 20 base, 96 growth, and launches at 88 degrees on frame 15-16, and 12% or 11%, 10 base, 50 growth, and launches at 50 degrees on frame 17-19. They really did give Yoshi a (pre-Smash 4) Falco Up Smash that does 4% more clean, 3% more late, has 1 less active frame, and has 2 more total frames.
Weird thing I don't get is why some moves are only invincible on-hit while others are invincible on before and/or during hits, especially for similar moves like Falco's Down Smash is only invincible 4 frames before it hits while Fox's is only invincible when it hits or how Fox, Mii Brawler, and Yoshi basically have the same Up Smashes, but only Fox's is invincible from frame 1 to the rest of the clean hit while Mii Brawler and Yoshi's are only invincible upon startup and the rest of their clean hits. Or how similar moves are blatantly better than the other characters like how Falco and Luigi have much lower recovery on their Down Smashes than Fox and Mario with Luigi's doing more noticeable damage; Falco's has 46 total frames to Fox's 52 and Luigi's has 37 total frames to Mario's 43. I get that they don't want Fox to abuse a safe Down Smash, but what about Mario and Luigi? Mario's not significantly faster on the ground than Fox is to Falco and even then, most Down Smashes aren't that strong in terms of raw power or versatility, so there shouldn't really be an issue for Mario to have say, 37 total frames on his weak Down Smash like Luigi (or even for them to swap total frames).
Doesn't Falco also do a backflip? I never looked too close at the animation, but isn't it kind of a copy of Fox. In any case, the lack on invulnerability might be due to the multi hit benefits and the extra safety on shield (back hit is kind of safe for a smash). The other flip smashes hit around frame 8-12 and have 40+ frames of lag after and are single hits open to powershields. Falco's first hit scoop is still fast, but the 2nd hit can hit as late as frame 20 on his back with only 30 frames of downtime. Probably wont be powershielding it since its 2 hits, so its a decent bit safer.
Of course falco doesn't need it, since he can get kills off grabs unlike Fox.
Clones (and those who previously were clones) seem just randomly diversified for no reason. I'd say Mario and Fox have that extra cooldown because they have more mobility and can cover movements with their own compared to Luigi and Falco, but then you look at Falcon being faster and safer than Ganondorf in the same areas.
Well, Fox wins before and during the clean hit while Yoshi and Mii Brawler will win during the clean hit. Kirby on the other hand or other foot, will win regardless like Mario.
Pikachu does a tail flip which logically, shouldn't be that powerful since Pikachu tails aren't exactly thick or seemingly strong like Charizard's thick tail. Then again, Falco's thin tail sweep is stronger than Ike's sweep with Ragnell, a freaking enchanted sword, and Samus's explosion thing for her Dtilt and then again, Pikachu can learn Iron Tail... Y'know, if a move is called "Iron Tail", you'd assume Pikachu's Up Smash would also be invincible or intangible... It's not. Meanwhile, a dinosaur's foot is completely invulnerable to almost anything and Fox's (cybernetic) legs are somehow that much stronger than Falco's (cybernetic) legs when Falco's Ftilt, Up Smash, and Bair suggests he has more dexterity and power than Fox.
Kirby's up smash is also partially invincible (surprisingly); though, it has 14 frames of start-up and the same amount of cool down as Mario's (WHY), so I'm sure people won't be getting hit by his nearly as much as other flip-kicks.
The funny thing is that it seems like it's the only flip kick that has partial invincibility during the entire duration of the attack itself, not the start-up or end-lag.
Forgot about the little puffster. Kirby's Up Smash is pretty much as strong as Fox's, but almost twice as slow. I guess that's "compensation" for having longer I-frames than Fox.
Anyway, the weird thing is that people have suggested that Ganondorf's Up Smash is disjointed and potentially invincible when data says otherwise (for the invincibility part as we don't have hitbox viewers yet). In a similar scenario, I tried testing Falco's Up Smash by hitting a Bob-Omb on the lower platforms of Battlefield and he either flips himself in such a way that he can ignore hitboxes at certain frames or his feet not his legs are invincible which is more or less useless since legs have larger area than feet obviously. The other thing is that his Utilt can sometimes outhit people despite once again, not being invincible in any way nor being disjointed unlike his Dtilt. The only specials properties he has for his normals are Side Smash's transcendent priority, Down Smash's partial intangibility frames, and Dair's ground and aerial hitboxes, so there's not much that can be said. I don't really know and that can be said for pretty much all characters like people thinking Sheik's Fair is invincible when it just might be animation since she swipes and keeps her arms close to her body.
There is a question on whether or not it would matter if Falco and Pikachu had invincible Up Smashes. It would just make theirs safer like Yoshi, Mii Brawler, and Kirby and Falco might not even get much compared to Pikachu who has much more raw power than Falco. Falco's multi-hit Up Smash is still weaker than Yoshi, Mii Brawler, and Fox's sour-spot Up Smash because what really matters is that the final hit only does 12% compared to Fox's 16% or 14% on the first hitboxes of his Up Smash despite sharing the same knockback and total damage. Falco might prefer a clank, but don't stop Up Smash like Little Mac's Utilt and Ftilt or Ike's dash attack. I mean, there's 2 other choices: invincibility and transcendence, and both would end up allowing Falco to challenge you and get 16% while a clank and continue one could cause Falco to only get 12%, thus, toning it down. That being said, because of Ike's range and if Little Mac's close enough, I think they can get max damage out of their attacks. For Pikachu, is his tail considered disjointed for Up Smash or his other moves? If it is, then he can't beat moves like Fox, Yoshi, Mii Brawler, Kirby, Mario, and Luigi, but he can always put out a disjoint, connect with a hurtbox without putting out his hurtbox, and at worse, clank.
It's still curious wondering why Falco's flip kick Up Smash isn't invincible like the others and why Pikachu's isn't when if it's been influenced by Iron Tail and its similar function to flip kick Up Smashes. Then we have to ask why Ike and Triple D can clank with their Side Smashes when they're slamming heavy weapons onto people. With the mechanic of clank and continue moves found on Little Mac and even Ike, why weren't those implemented on Triple D and Ike as well? Their Smashes in any setting are high risk, very slow, and should be very rewarding, but very punishable on whiff. On-hit even if they clank, they should be continuing through because of how strong those moves should be. Bowser doesn't really have this issue because many of his attacks have partial intangibility, Ganondorf's moves are quick for a heavyweight, and Charizard has access to many disjoints making him more like the swordsman of the group along with Bowser.
Ehhh... again I'm not a Jigglypuff player, and I don't exactly disagree with her placement on tier lists, but when is Jigglypuff ever actually affected by landing lag? She's so floaty and has such strong aerial control that even if you don't autocancel the aerials you're already weaving away from the opponent.
Doesn't Falco also do a backflip? I never looked too close at the animation, but isn't it kind of a copy of Fox. In any case, the lack on invulnerability might be due to the multi hit benefits and the extra safety on shield (back hit is kind of safe for a smash). The other flip smashes hit around frame 8-12 and have 40+ frames of lag after and are single hits open to powershields. Falco's first hit scoop is still fast, but the 2nd hit can hit as late as frame 20 on his back with only 30 frames of downtime. Probably wont be powershielding it since its 2 hits, so its a decent bit safer.
Of course falco doesn't need it, since he can get kills off grabs unlike Fox.
He does a front flip. Falco and Fox are the only characters to do front flips, but Falco is the only one to do front flips for both his flip kicks, Up Smash and Uair, while Fox does a backflip for his Up Smash and front flip for his Uair which was re-positioned and used for Falco's Uair - same animation, but Falco doesn't turn so his body is horizontal like Fox. Now that I'm thinking about it, that probably explains why Falco's Uair used to be frame 10-14 since Fox's was frame 9-13 that was split between a frame 9-10 and 12-13 hit. Apparently turning to do a flip is somehow faster than simply flipping... >_>
Falco twists himself so he kicks with his heels instead of his feet. Still shot of the first hit.
Gif of Falco's current Up Smash.
Melee and Brawl Falco's Up Smash.
Fox's Up Smash.
If anything, Falco's Up Smash was copied off of Charlie's Somersault Shell which itself was a variation of Guile's Flash Kick used by Fox. Guile's Flash Kick and Charlie's Somersault Shell. See the resemblance?
It becomes a bit more hilarious since Nash doesn't do Somersault Shell in Street Fighter V, but Sonic Scythe which has no invincibility while assuming Guile returns with the same moveset, Flash Kick has invincibility frames. It's the last move, the double crescent kick, used in this gif. Would have loved it if Falco had Moonsault Slash for a Fair as it would justify a landing hit unlike what the hell is happening for his current Fair.
Anyway, Yoshi's Up Smash has 46 total frames and takes 26 frames to recover as a frame 11-16, 6 active frames, move, Kirby's is frame 14-19, 6 active frames, and has 47 total frames and 27 recovery frames, Fox's is frame 8-11, 4 active frames, and has 55 total frames and 43 recovery frames, Pikachu's is frame 10-17, 8 active frames, and has 44 total frames and 28 recovery frames, and Falco's is frame 8-21, first hit on 8-12 and second on 12-21 according to Thinkaman's data dump for patch 1.0.8 - used to be 13-20 -, 14 active frames, and 49 total frames and 27 recovery frames. Mii Brawler's a bit complicated; MB's is frame 8-14, 7 active frames, and 42 (small), 47 (medium), and 56 (large) total frames meaning small MB takes 27 frames to recovery, medium takes 32, and large takes 41. Okay... Really? 41? How strong is it? 'Cause that seems really extreme.
Anyway, outside of large MB's unfortunate circumstances and Fox's Up Smash, Falco, Kirby, Pikachu, and Yoshi all have almost the same recovery frames. For Fox, it makes sense since his Up Smash is the strongest probably followed by large MB, Pikachu and Kirby, Yoshi, and then Falco. It makes sense for Fox to have to take a risk for whiffing and requiring that he's precise and on-point with Up Smash followups from Nair, Dair, fast fall Fair, etc. For Kirby whose Up Smash is the slowest, he shouldn't have a lot of recovery because he's slower than Fox meaning he can't really run around like Fox and chance an Up Smash without heavily telegraphing it.
As for perfect shielding multi-hits, I'm pretty sure it automatically perfect shields the rest of the hits unless it's say, a controlled multi-hit like jab combos and Link's Side Smash, but if you end up perfect shielding the first hit, you're probably going to be able to immediately punish them. Also, Falco's Up Smash is -27 on-shield and -20 after shield drop. It also doesn't really push people that far, so perfect shield or not, it's punishable.
Falco's kill throws are the most unreliable kill throws in the game and while Falco's setups out of throws are better than Fox's, they're not anywhere near Sheik's level of being able to 50/50 you or have more guaranteed setups like ZSS, DK, Robin, Ike, Diddy, the Pits, Ness, and Captain Falcon. They are, however, versatile as Falco will put you in dangerous situations while also confusing you when he can pretty much pick any move. All DI dependent and all on you for screwing up.
Clones (and those who previously were clones) seem just randomly diversified for no reason. I'd say Mario and Fox have that extra cooldown because they have more mobility and can cover movements with their own compared to Luigi and Falco, but then you look at Falcon being faster and safer than Ganondorf in the same areas.
Well, they had to diversify them because of backlash from fans. That being said, it's kind of hilarious how Falco only has jab, Utilt, Side Smash, and Nair as his hand moves while Wolf has jab, Ftilt, Side Smash, Down Smash, Utilt, Fair, and Dair as hand moves despite the intent that Fox being more kick-oriented lead to making Falco more hand-orientated while Wolf, a semi-clone at worse, has more hand moves than Falco from the get-go.
I did address that the total frames for Mario and Fox were a bit strange considering Mario does much less damage than Luigi who also recovers much quicker and who doesn't really run that slower compared to Falco to Fox and Fox's Down Smash almost being barely different than Falco's while Falco's does 1% more and has less recovery. Even with Fox's greater mobility, there's barely a difference between their Down Smashes like between Mario and Dr. Mario, so if they're so similar, why even bother to make them different? Luigi's case is that his Down Smash is good while Mario's is under-tuned or nerfed - can't remember if his Down Smash was affected in his transition from Brawl to Smash 4. That's the main thing I'm getting at.
so don't take my opinion with any authority but I thought I might get the ball rolling to provide a base, and then people can feel free to disprove/discredit me.
