I think you're underestimating jigglypuff. She's exactly the same gameplay wise since melee where she's high tier minus the L cancelling
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Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions
- Thread starter Shaya
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Dee-SmashinBoss
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2015
- Messages
- 926
Zylach
I know I asked you before, but can you try to convince people that Zelda isn't entirely trash like some say, wouldn't you agree that she has some things going for her and that some people over exaggerate on some of her flaws?I mean since people are talking about her now, I figured why not ask you.
...and everything else that made her good.
Trifroze
all is cheese, all is jank
Jigglypuff can't combo in Smash 4, Jigglypuff can't throw combo into rest in Smash 4, Jigglypuff can't obliterate every recovery in the game because average recoveries in Smash 4 are about as good as Samus' recovery in Melee.
LancerStaff
Smash Hero
Jigglypuff needs a command grab or something... That way she doesn't need ridiculous combos and the like to work.
What if sing put you to sleep a few frames faster and went through shields? It might be useful at that point.
Mazdamaxsti
Smash Lord
Not really. At all. In Melee she has super high air speed and all the characters don't compare to it. Her rest kills below 15% and you can combo it out of an u-tilt, u-air, or even u-throw on fastfallers. In Melee she had good setups into a tech situation, where her jab causes a jab reset so she can get a free kill.
Also, in Melee recoveries are a lot worse, meaning Puff gets higher reward off of going offstage. Her wall of pain is better in Melee too. In Melee, Puff has the proper tools to play defensive in an aggressive game, when Puff being defensive in smash 4 doesn't mean anything.
So in Melee, she has rest confirms at low percents, airspeed which can't be compared to other characters, gets a higher reward off of being defensive, and a higher reward off of edge-guarding. She has none of that in this game.
TTTTTsd
Gordeau Main Paint Drinker
I'm also pretty sure Bair had a gigantic hitbox in Melee vs. this game but I could be wrong.
Mazdamaxsti
Smash Lord
It did, it had a huge hitbox, like double the size of her actual leg.
No. Sing is still an extremely slow (reactable?) move that can only be used as a punish for the laggiest of moves, and otherwise requires a read of the gods.
Besides... It's still smash 4 jiggs. She'd still be crap.
warionumbah2
Smash Master
Germany tournament, Mr R is there: http://www.Twitch.tv/geekygoonsquad
⑨ball
Smash Ace
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Would it really be that bad?
I somehow don't really mind the idea of a character who's neutral game comes down to "jump into disadvantage and make a read" having a frame 29 command grab that doesn't hit in the air, that's also damage dependent, and may also be mashed out of (?), FAF of 180, semi-confirming into a kill move.
Everything in Melee had gigantic hitboxes.
Falcon could spike you with his nipples for gods sake.
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Antonykun
Hero of Many Faces
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just because jigg is not good doesn't mean you can give her an effective unblockable instakill that doesn't require about a second of start up
I would rather give her a kill or combo throw than make sing unblockable, its a simpler solution that benefits Jigglipuff's good grab
bc1910
Smash Lord
Sing isn't active until frame 29 so yeah, if you're familiar with how the startup animation looks, it's easy enough to react to.
An unblockable sing would still be really easy to react to so IDK how broken it would actually be.
Mazdamaxsti
Smash Lord
Jiggs B-air was just insane though.
Browny
Smash Hater
We can only dream.
Although frame data should have no meaning whatsoever. Luigi had amazing frame data in Brawl (as per usual) but frame data is completely trumped by mobility and range in that case.
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thebeatles145
Smash Cadet
G&W is viable, just no representation besides Gimr, but he has good recovery, combos that just aren't quite brain dead, some jank early kill moves and more jank.
Tipper is what makes marth good in my opinion.
Hello, I am now Shaya.
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C0rvus
Pro Hands Catcher
Jiggs was good in Melee mostly because of the game itself. She could abuse the generally very poor recoveries of the cast, and she could combo into rest on fast fallers. The changes to the engine in Brawl and Smash 4 were incredibly unkind to her. The biggest offender was the new ledge mechanics killing her niche. Plus, her recovery is pretty average or below to be honest. Pretty trash character tbh.
But hey, her Rosa MU is pretty good, so there's that.
But hey, her Rosa MU is pretty good, so there's that.
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So um with everyone posting their tier lists I figured I would uh... join in on the fun. Here we goes...
With that out of the way, have you SEEN Reflex's set vs GrimTurtle at MLG? His Wario is magnificent.
LOL just playing
With that out of the way, have you SEEN Reflex's set vs GrimTurtle at MLG? His Wario is magnificent.
Scarhi
Smash Cadet
Alright, I don't think Shulk is top tier or anything but I often see quite a few misconceptions about him on this thread (Shulk mains barely post here so it's understandable xD). I'll try to address the points one by one. Sorry in advance for my clumsy English and my disorganized thoughts. If something isn't understandable, please tell me so that I can try to explain it with different words
So at first glance, Shulk looks like a different Ike, trading some frame data and reward (throw combos, damage, kill power) for more range and the Monado Arts. But you seem to be presenting Monado Arts as a poorly designed gimmick when in fact, they patch up most of the weaknesses you mentionned.
Shulk's recovery isn't as bad as most people think since most good Shulks will switch to Jump Art when sent offstage against a character they know can gimp them. By doing so, Shulk often doesn't even need to use his upB to recover. Additionally, Shulk's Fair has way more range than Ike's, allowing him to challenge most horizontal edgeguarding attempts. On the rare occasion that Jump Art is on cooldown, he can switch to Speed Art which increases his aerial horizontal movement. With these two Arts' mobility, airdodging through an edgeguarder while drifting towards the stage can also be a good option.
Regarding Shulk's upB, it has a very good range, so the opponent has to respect it to a certain extent. It can also be delayed a fair amount and Shulk can mix his recovery up by either choosing to use the first hit only and safely grabbing the ledge from underneath or by going for both hits (hitting an opponent waiting on the ledge if they only expected one hit). It seems like a risky 50/50 but it can actually be done on reaction by watching the opponent (are they shielding on the ledge ? Go for the first hit only and grab the ledge). The first hit also grabs the ledge from pretty far down, so you don't have to stick your head above the ledge while recovering. Stagespike attempts can be stopped on reaction by B-reversing upB.
Another interesting recovery option against some characters is to go underneath the stage with Jump Art and to upB to the other ledge.
I live in a pretty stacked region in France (Paris), and I only ever get gimped by good Mario players. And that's only when i'm forced into my upB and if they read my spacing. (horizontally spaced upB beats dash attack on the ledge but gets beaten by Cape / FLUDD and low upB gets beaten by dash attack. But dash attack doesn't always stage spike to begin with, so I didn't even get gimped that often.)
Let's talk about rewards now. Shulk's throw combos may not work as late as Ike's, but he does have some at low percentages. Buster throw combos such as Dthrow > Dtilt (27% if I'm remembering well) are character dependent but Speed Dthrow > Fair gives you stage control for free at low percentages against pretty much anyone, and even if it doesn't deal a lot of guaranteed damage, Shulk having stage control means that Shulk can go Buster. And Shulk is really good at covering options in advantaged state with his range. Shulk's Nair covers nearly every option from the ledge if you're facing away from it. And if it connects, it leads into a lot of stuff.
Shulk has a few other combos and will mostly be abusing Buster when in advantaged state, giving him access to stuff like Utilt > Utilt frame traps that lead to jab if the second Utilt is airdodged. (Shulk's jab deals 18% in Buster)
Jump:
+Jump height, Air speed, Fall speed, upB height
-Shulk takes 22% more damage.
So the first thing that comes to mind is that if Shulk's already at kill percentages, Jump's weakness becomes irrelevant. Jump is mostly used to escape disadvantaged state (fall speed and air speed enables Shulk to escape juggles, and obviously all properties enable him to escape edgeguarding attempts more easily), or in advantaged state. If you're offstage, avoiding a stock loss is largely worth taking some more damage since if you get hit, you'd probably be dead anyway if not for Jump art. If you're in an advantaged state you have more opportunities to hit your opponent than your opponent to hit you. And even if he does and if you're not already at high percentages, you can always cancel the art during hitstun and avoid taking additional damage for more than one hit. In return, you can edgeguard super deep and make it back, and if you cover ledge options / landings with Nair, it often leads to Fair > Fair for a kill at 60%. (or to Bair for a kill at 80%) The second Fair is either guaranteed or an airdodge read 50/50.
Jump can also be used in the neutral but it usually won't when Shulk is at lower % because of its damage increase. (except for a few MUs: projectile-based characters for the most part)
Speed:
+Walk speed, Running speed, Air speed
-Damage dealt (-20%), Jump height
Speed is the go-to Art in neutral against characters with a better neutral game than Shulk (if their neutral game is on par with Shulk's, you can go to Buster for the immediate reward). Speed has three uses: taking stage control, edgeguarding horizontally and recovering if Jump is on cooldown. The jump height decease is so negligible that Speed Shulk actually has an easier time recovering than Vanilla in most situations thanks to the increased airspeed. Once you've put your opponent offstage (a Nair two hit combo or a Dthrow > Fair will often do the trick), you can switch to Buster or Smash. The decreased damage dealt doesn't hurt Shulk too much because you're often gonna aim to get your rewards from covering options in advantaged state with Buster/Smash/Jump.
Shield:
+Reduced damage taken, reduced hitstun taken, reduced knockback taken
-Damage dealt, Mobility (ground&air)
Alright, some characters can stall Shield out. But against most characters, if you try to play a keepaway game, I'll just walk up to you and corner you. Now you're neat the ledge and you have to get through me with my Utilt having great vertical range and my Nair being able to cover rolls and spotdodges. If I guess well or if I grab you, I might put you offstage and go to another, more dangerous Art. Or I might kill you since Shield Art's knockback dealt is the same as Vanilla. You get the idea ^^
Shield Art also allows Shulk to go for more hard reads, even if he's at high percentages, since he won't die if he whiffs. I often cover ledge getups / rolls with Usmash's lingering hitbox when I'm in Shield. If Shulk is thrown offstage, he likely won't be very far from the stage and can cancel Shield and go into Jump or Speed to recover anyway.
Buster:
+Damage dealt (+40%), Safety on shield
- Damage taken (+13%), Less knockback dealt (which is actually good)
I won't say too much about Buster, since you said it was good and I'm already feeling like I'm trying to condense the whole Shulk board's knowledge here xD
Smash:
+Knockback dealt,
-More knockback taken, Less damage dealt, Less safety on shield
Smash is in my opinion the trickiest Art to use, because it is so unsafe. You just can't throw an aerial at a grounded opponent when in Smash, it's suicide. Most of the time, you'll use it when you're at low percentages and your opponent is at high percentages. With good use of your shield, though, it isn't so risky to use when both characters are at high perentages, especially when in advantaged state. (except against characters will kill throws) 100-150 Rage-boosted Smash Art Dthrow kills around 80% at the ledge (and Shulk will often have that much rage thanks to Shield Art), so it's perfect to punish ledge getups.
Additionally, the increase in knockback taken is actually good when Shulk is at high percentages to avoid some characters' kill set ups (at percentages where Sheik's Dthrow > Uair will begin to kill Vanilla Shulk, Smash Shulk can jump out of Dthrow 50/50s with no fear).
What I'm trying to say with these Art write-ups is that the Arts can't be viewed individually but rather as a whole kit, and that in a given situation (game state and percentages of both characters), Shulk will always have at least one Art with little to no relevant weaknesses.
And I mean, even in the extreme case that everything useful is on cooldown, Jump Art and Shield Art can stall for what's remaining of the 10 seconds cooldown. xD
What I think is Shulk's biggest weakness however, in terms of game dynamics, is how he struggles against a shielding opponent in neutral if the opponent has the lead. (but it's gotten a lot better since the shieldstun patch ^_^)
Shulk's range is good to deal with approaches if he has the lead, since his aerials are safe if perfectly spaced. However short hop approaches are very hard to space against an opponent who dashes to shield because of that awful air deceleration. When Shulk short hops toward you, he can't stop himself or weave back like Marth would. So he has to rely on mixups in the neutral. Walking is good. Tomahawks followed by a grab can work, but they can be reacted to, since Shulk can't throw out a late aerial because of his frame data. So you gotta work with cross-ups, empty jumps out of the opponent's range followed by a spaced Dtilt to punish those who'd think you were going for a grab, often having to reset the situation or back off to the ledge. A lot of rock/paper/scissors situations in the neutral. That's why I feel that his neutral game is the biggest thing holding Shulk back.
I havent even talked about art cancelling but this post has been long enough for now xD I'll only say that it's a good extra option to deal with Shulk's neutral game problems ^^ I'd probably put him in the higher part of mid tier right now. It might be main bias, it might be that our metagame is different from North America's (I often place from top 8 to top 20 out of ~80 players in the best French region, so most people here are actually surprised when I tell them most people in NA think Shulk is low tier xD). I understand that the lack of results and top players dropping the character make for a bad opinion of him in NA but I still think he doesn't belong in low tier. Silentdoom and Taitsu are two other European Shulk players who have had pretty good placings at tournaments, and in theory there's still a lot of room to grow for the character. MU specific Art use such as Smash against Sheik at high percentages (it helps a lot) hasn't been explored at all regarding other Match-Ups, and Monado Art Landing Lag Cancelling hasn't been perfectly implemented into anyone's playstyle yet. It won't make Shulk top tier, probably not top 10 or 15 but I don't think he's too far off.
Shulk's recovery isn't as bad as most people think since most good Shulks will switch to Jump Art when sent offstage against a character they know can gimp them. By doing so, Shulk often doesn't even need to use his upB to recover. Additionally, Shulk's Fair has way more range than Ike's, allowing him to challenge most horizontal edgeguarding attempts. On the rare occasion that Jump Art is on cooldown, he can switch to Speed Art which increases his aerial horizontal movement. With these two Arts' mobility, airdodging through an edgeguarder while drifting towards the stage can also be a good option.
Regarding Shulk's upB, it has a very good range, so the opponent has to respect it to a certain extent. It can also be delayed a fair amount and Shulk can mix his recovery up by either choosing to use the first hit only and safely grabbing the ledge from underneath or by going for both hits (hitting an opponent waiting on the ledge if they only expected one hit). It seems like a risky 50/50 but it can actually be done on reaction by watching the opponent (are they shielding on the ledge ? Go for the first hit only and grab the ledge). The first hit also grabs the ledge from pretty far down, so you don't have to stick your head above the ledge while recovering. Stagespike attempts can be stopped on reaction by B-reversing upB.
Another interesting recovery option against some characters is to go underneath the stage with Jump Art and to upB to the other ledge.
I live in a pretty stacked region in France (Paris), and I only ever get gimped by good Mario players. And that's only when i'm forced into my upB and if they read my spacing. (horizontally spaced upB beats dash attack on the ledge but gets beaten by Cape / FLUDD and low upB gets beaten by dash attack. But dash attack doesn't always stage spike to begin with, so I didn't even get gimped that often.)
Let's talk about rewards now. Shulk's throw combos may not work as late as Ike's, but he does have some at low percentages. Buster throw combos such as Dthrow > Dtilt (27% if I'm remembering well) are character dependent but Speed Dthrow > Fair gives you stage control for free at low percentages against pretty much anyone, and even if it doesn't deal a lot of guaranteed damage, Shulk having stage control means that Shulk can go Buster. And Shulk is really good at covering options in advantaged state with his range. Shulk's Nair covers nearly every option from the ledge if you're facing away from it. And if it connects, it leads into a lot of stuff.
Just to give everyone a rough idea.
Low percentages: (0~30)
Nair > Jab
Nair > Grab
Nair > Ftilt
Nair > Fsmash
Nair > Utilt
Mid percentages30~80)
Same as Low percentages combos but using Buster (due to Buster's decreased knockback)
+
Nair > Fair > Fair (Speed or Jump)
The second Fair is percentage dependent and can be replaced with upB
Nair > Bair (Speed or Jump)
Low percentages: (0~30)
Nair > Jab
Nair > Grab
Nair > Ftilt
Nair > Fsmash
Nair > Utilt
Mid percentages
30~80)Same as Low percentages combos but using Buster (due to Buster's decreased knockback)
+
Nair > Fair > Fair (Speed or Jump)
The second Fair is percentage dependent and can be replaced with upB
Nair > Bair (Speed or Jump)
Shulk has a few other combos and will mostly be abusing Buster when in advantaged state, giving him access to stuff like Utilt > Utilt frame traps that lead to jab if the second Utilt is airdodged. (Shulk's jab deals 18% in Buster)
This is the argument I disagree with the most. Let's go through the Arts' strengths and weaknesses.
Jump:
+Jump height, Air speed, Fall speed, upB height
-Shulk takes 22% more damage.
So the first thing that comes to mind is that if Shulk's already at kill percentages, Jump's weakness becomes irrelevant. Jump is mostly used to escape disadvantaged state (fall speed and air speed enables Shulk to escape juggles, and obviously all properties enable him to escape edgeguarding attempts more easily), or in advantaged state. If you're offstage, avoiding a stock loss is largely worth taking some more damage since if you get hit, you'd probably be dead anyway if not for Jump art. If you're in an advantaged state you have more opportunities to hit your opponent than your opponent to hit you. And even if he does and if you're not already at high percentages, you can always cancel the art during hitstun and avoid taking additional damage for more than one hit. In return, you can edgeguard super deep and make it back, and if you cover ledge options / landings with Nair, it often leads to Fair > Fair for a kill at 60%. (or to Bair for a kill at 80%) The second Fair is either guaranteed or an airdodge read 50/50.
Jump can also be used in the neutral but it usually won't when Shulk is at lower % because of its damage increase. (except for a few MUs: projectile-based characters for the most part)
Speed:
+Walk speed, Running speed, Air speed
-Damage dealt (-20%), Jump height
Speed is the go-to Art in neutral against characters with a better neutral game than Shulk (if their neutral game is on par with Shulk's, you can go to Buster for the immediate reward). Speed has three uses: taking stage control, edgeguarding horizontally and recovering if Jump is on cooldown. The jump height decease is so negligible that Speed Shulk actually has an easier time recovering than Vanilla in most situations thanks to the increased airspeed. Once you've put your opponent offstage (a Nair two hit combo or a Dthrow > Fair will often do the trick), you can switch to Buster or Smash. The decreased damage dealt doesn't hurt Shulk too much because you're often gonna aim to get your rewards from covering options in advantaged state with Buster/Smash/Jump.
Shield:
+Reduced damage taken, reduced hitstun taken, reduced knockback taken
-Damage dealt, Mobility (ground&air)
Alright, some characters can stall Shield out. But against most characters, if you try to play a keepaway game, I'll just walk up to you and corner you. Now you're neat the ledge and you have to get through me with my Utilt having great vertical range and my Nair being able to cover rolls and spotdodges. If I guess well or if I grab you, I might put you offstage and go to another, more dangerous Art. Or I might kill you since Shield Art's knockback dealt is the same as Vanilla. You get the idea ^^
Shield Art also allows Shulk to go for more hard reads, even if he's at high percentages, since he won't die if he whiffs. I often cover ledge getups / rolls with Usmash's lingering hitbox when I'm in Shield. If Shulk is thrown offstage, he likely won't be very far from the stage and can cancel Shield and go into Jump or Speed to recover anyway.
Buster:
+Damage dealt (+40%), Safety on shield
- Damage taken (+13%), Less knockback dealt (which is actually good)
I won't say too much about Buster, since you said it was good and I'm already feeling like I'm trying to condense the whole Shulk board's knowledge here xD
Smash:
+Knockback dealt,
-More knockback taken, Less damage dealt, Less safety on shield
Smash is in my opinion the trickiest Art to use, because it is so unsafe. You just can't throw an aerial at a grounded opponent when in Smash, it's suicide. Most of the time, you'll use it when you're at low percentages and your opponent is at high percentages. With good use of your shield, though, it isn't so risky to use when both characters are at high perentages, especially when in advantaged state. (except against characters will kill throws) 100-150 Rage-boosted Smash Art Dthrow kills around 80% at the ledge (and Shulk will often have that much rage thanks to Shield Art), so it's perfect to punish ledge getups.
Additionally, the increase in knockback taken is actually good when Shulk is at high percentages to avoid some characters' kill set ups (at percentages where Sheik's Dthrow > Uair will begin to kill Vanilla Shulk, Smash Shulk can jump out of Dthrow 50/50s with no fear).
What I'm trying to say with these Art write-ups is that the Arts can't be viewed individually but rather as a whole kit, and that in a given situation (game state and percentages of both characters), Shulk will always have at least one Art with little to no relevant weaknesses.
And I mean, even in the extreme case that everything useful is on cooldown, Jump Art and Shield Art can stall for what's remaining of the 10 seconds cooldown. xD
What I think is Shulk's biggest weakness however, in terms of game dynamics, is how he struggles against a shielding opponent in neutral if the opponent has the lead. (but it's gotten a lot better since the shieldstun patch ^_^)
Shulk's range is good to deal with approaches if he has the lead, since his aerials are safe if perfectly spaced. However short hop approaches are very hard to space against an opponent who dashes to shield because of that awful air deceleration. When Shulk short hops toward you, he can't stop himself or weave back like Marth would. So he has to rely on mixups in the neutral. Walking is good. Tomahawks followed by a grab can work, but they can be reacted to, since Shulk can't throw out a late aerial because of his frame data. So you gotta work with cross-ups, empty jumps out of the opponent's range followed by a spaced Dtilt to punish those who'd think you were going for a grab, often having to reset the situation or back off to the ledge. A lot of rock/paper/scissors situations in the neutral. That's why I feel that his neutral game is the biggest thing holding Shulk back.
I havent even talked about art cancelling but this post has been long enough for now xD I'll only say that it's a good extra option to deal with Shulk's neutral game problems ^^ I'd probably put him in the higher part of mid tier right now. It might be main bias, it might be that our metagame is different from North America's (I often place from top 8 to top 20 out of ~80 players in the best French region, so most people here are actually surprised when I tell them most people in NA think Shulk is low tier xD). I understand that the lack of results and top players dropping the character make for a bad opinion of him in NA but I still think he doesn't belong in low tier. Silentdoom and Taitsu are two other European Shulk players who have had pretty good placings at tournaments, and in theory there's still a lot of room to grow for the character. MU specific Art use such as Smash against Sheik at high percentages (it helps a lot) hasn't been explored at all regarding other Match-Ups, and Monado Art Landing Lag Cancelling hasn't been perfectly implemented into anyone's playstyle yet. It won't make Shulk top tier, probably not top 10 or 15 but I don't think he's too far off.
...haha after re-reading it, my write-up looks more like a Shulk tutorial than part of a debate xD
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Horseketchup
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2015
- Messages
- 74
While Jiggs definitely benefits from a Melee environment more than Smash 4 and better rest setups, she also just doesn't have an amazing stand out tool in neutral like Melee bair. Even frame data-wise, compare bair in Smash 4 to Melee:
Active frames:
- Melee: frames 9-12 (2 more active frames, 3 frames faster start up)
- SSB4: frames 12-13
Endlag:
- Melee: 18 frames (8 less endlag frames)
- SSB4: 26 frames
FAF:
- Melee: frame 31 (ends 9 frames faster)
- SSB4: frame 40
Landing Lag:
- Melee: 20 frames
- SSB4: 18 frames
Autocancel:
- Melee: frame 25 (AC's 3 frames earlier)
- SSB4: frame 28
Along with this, bair hitboxes in Melee have ridiculous range and disjoint too. Wouldn't even expect Melee-level hitboxes, but with slightly more reach and Melee-level frame data on bair, that alone would probably make her much more viable. For Smash 4 she just doesn't have a stand out aerial like that, so it's much harder to get mileage out of her insane air speed and multiple jumps in neutral.
Active frames:
- Melee: frames 9-12 (2 more active frames, 3 frames faster start up)
- SSB4: frames 12-13
Endlag:
- Melee: 18 frames (8 less endlag frames)
- SSB4: 26 frames
FAF:
- Melee: frame 31 (ends 9 frames faster)
- SSB4: frame 40
Landing Lag:
- Melee: 20 frames
- SSB4: 18 frames
Autocancel:
- Melee: frame 25 (AC's 3 frames earlier)
- SSB4: frame 28
Along with this, bair hitboxes in Melee have ridiculous range and disjoint too. Wouldn't even expect Melee-level hitboxes, but with slightly more reach and Melee-level frame data on bair, that alone would probably make her much more viable. For Smash 4 she just doesn't have a stand out aerial like that, so it's much harder to get mileage out of her insane air speed and multiple jumps in neutral.
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Blobface
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2015
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- 1,283
- NNID
- everyone1 (Bob)
- 3DS FC
- 3454-0482-6740
Vermanubis
a little late here, but do you think Ganon fares better in a 2 stock or 3 stock environment? In high level play it would mean he has to make more reads to win, but he'd get far more chances to make those reads.
Horseketchup
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2015
- Messages
- 74
That's true of a lot of long lasting hitboxes though, I meant in the sense of stand out compared to the rest of the cast as a whole. Nair seems decent but it's not amazing in the same way that bair was, especially for her neutral game.
I think he does better in a 2-stock meta. The difference wouldn't really be tremendous, I don't think, but I think said reads are more meaningful in a 2-stock context. I think he does better for the same reasons Lucario would do better: a lead is a lot more meaningful when there's less time to lose it. But then again, that's assuming Ganon's operating entirely on reads instead of a more Ganonic orthodoxy of fundamentally strong play, in which case, I think 3-stock would be better.
Being that he's a mix, I say they're dead even. I personally prefer 2-stock, but 3 wouldn't cramp my style too hard either.
Off-stage Flame Choke is one of the only moves that is mechanically different (better) last stock vs. other stocks. Ganon has a mechanical bias towards fewer stocks, and would prefer to play a long series of one stock games if he could.
The only other character AFAIK who has a true, direct mechanical bias for stock preference is Lucario, who has higher variance stocks than any other character (again, based on pure mechanics) and would prefer to play as many stocks as possible, hoping to get that one magical rampage stock.
Match length affects Wario a lot due to waft, and characters with significant RNG mechanics have higher variance (like Lucario) that might be relevant.
Additionally, games with fewer stocks on average spend a larger % of the match closer to 0%-0%. If you have 0% combos that require no-to-little rage, you prefer fewer stocks. If you have 0% kill combos that require lots of rage or high-% combos that require no rage (DK), you prefer more stocks.
But in general, most character truly shouldn't have a bias. Something like stage matters WAY more.
He'd do slightly better in 2 stock because it gives worse players/characters a slightly better chance of winning. The opponent has to make less mistakes to lose.
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L9999
Smash Champion
No way in hell. Rest cannot be easily comboed into plus it's way weaker, she cannot edgeguard as good becuase there is no edgehogging, and recovering is way easier than Melee. Because her Bair is stronger, she can no longer use Wall of Pain. Rage destroys Jigglypuff, there are a hundred billion more characters, so more characters can opress her. She can no longer recover just using Pound.
Unless your name was Ness, Pichu or Kirby.
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KirbySquad101
Smash Ace
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- Sep 7, 2015
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- 927
Mostly on point with everything you said, but just wanted to point out that Jigg's landing lag for her bair is only 18 frames.
The idea was supposed to make her b-air much stronger, but then you see far more useful and threatening b-airs like Ike's, DK's, CF's, and Samus'; it could probably make her stupid in the air, but that was her main schtick to begin with.
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Zylach
Smash Ace
I just read through a few of the posts here about her and, taking into account what I've heard elsewhere about her unviability, I only really have a few things to note.
I mean since people are talking about her now, I figured why not ask you.
First, and I'm gonna be critiacl here, anyone that says FW elevator is all Zelda has clearly doesn't know anything about how she's played so they shouldn't be giving their opinion on her as if it's fact. She's got kill setups from landing nair into usmash, dsmash, and elevator and a quick Zelda player can react to an opponent's DI for the kill. Plus, she's got one of the best offstage presences in the game thanks to her recovery, lingering dair, and multihit nair + NL. She's got dtilt and jab setups into kicks that can potentially kill depending on stage positioning. Watch good Zelda players before you say that all she has is FW because that's a baseless lie.
I'm not saying that she's a very viable character because she's not. Her skill ceiling is tremendously high and players need to dedicate a lot more time to her than other characters in order to do marginally well with her in a tournament setting. We do have proof that she can be played at that level though. I'd point you to Nairo (If you can find any footage of him playing her anymore lol) and especially Ven who exclusively plays her. Check out the Zelda boards for some of our gameplay videos. I can attest to other players such as EvMaxy and Macchiato.
Just... seriously, don't make baseless claims. Do some research before you give a critic of a character's viability. It's unhealthy to the metagame to base it around uninformed speculation.
To that end, I'm posting our video thread and data repository for people that are actually interested in seeing what Zelda does so they can be better informed about her.
http://smashboards.com/threads/hyrule-duels-zelda-sm4sh-video-thread.388470/
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-great-fairy-fountain-ii-zelda-data-research-repository.370698/
I'm also posting one of the better guides on her for people that wanna go in depth with the character. It's a bit old and we've found new stuff since then (As well as had several buffs) so it's not comprehensive.
http://smashboards.com/guides/zelda-guide-lightning-looks-good-on-you.115/
Cheers!
Nobie
Smash Champion
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- SDShamshel
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It's less Jigglypuff's nair by itself and more Jigglypuff's nair combined with the character's floatiness. Other nairs will stay out, but they don't literally block the ledge for a significant chunk of time like Jiggs's does.
I think the idea behind changing bair was to make it a quick, strong attack that doesn't overshadow the other aerials, because that's pretty much what happened in Melee.
Horseketchup
Smash Cadet
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- Aug 14, 2015
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- 74
Oh my bad, yea misread it as 28.
That's a good point, plus her short jumps allow her to more quickly hop to ledge compared to most characters aerials. I was mostly thinking about neutral though, puff has range issues and nair doesn't really have enough range/disjoint to give her a great approach or spacing tool like Melee bair. Her total frames on aerials last too long too, she can't throw out multiple quick aerials like bair anymore to fully exploit her aerial mobility.
I understand why they did it, it just sucks they didn't improve the rest of her kit in any meaningful way to make up for it. Instead being a character of extreme strengths/weaknesses, she had those strengths toned down and is left with not nearly enough to make up for it.
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Nabbitnator
Smash Ace
I think that all characters are viable at some point but there are so many characters that do zelda's job better it just migitates what she can do.
Tri Knight
Smash Ace
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Hows his aerial speed compared to hers?
TurboLink
Smash Lord
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Apeirohaon
Smash Apprentice
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His air speed has already been posted but here are the aerial acceleration values:
Sheik - 0.08
Zard - 0.05
source - http://smashboards.com/threads/smas...ow-with-raw-real-values.383217/#post-18656263
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