VGBootCamp: Regarding Project M

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

the fighting game where im able to play as Fox McCloud and Luigi

So all Smash games ever?

 

[SevereScreamo]

then its not smash bros...

Maybe I was not clear enough I'm sorry but the idea I was trying to convey was a game built with the smash competitive community in mind with the same rules and physics but new original characters and tweaks to make the competitive play better that way the PM Team can own it and remove all ties with Nintendo to have less issues with the success of the game

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Making money off of Project M is as illegal as making money off Melee. However, the difference is that Melee promotes Nintendo and Project M does not. Project M in and of itself is not "illegal." Making money off it is. But again, same can be said for Melee which is why Nintendo did not want it streamed at EVO. They enacted their right to remove it from the stream, but they changed their minds, obviously.

EVO was a different issue. There was miscommunication on that front from what I recall.

Melee is something that is more offical and from them that supports Nintendo, Project M does not.

1.)this is a FREE modification that will only work with a copy of Super Smash Bros. Brawl
2.)the only time it is illegal is when someone pirates the game to play PM
3.)it only breaks the warranty laws, not the copyright

It doesn't matter if it used Brawl or not, it's still using it on a front to endorse something that isn't owned by the PM team. It doesn't fall under fair use.

When you make money via alternative means with the game it is most definitely not.

With the third one is also a main reason to not do such, it opens the door for other modification and they may not want to open that door at all.

 

[Johnknight1]

lol @ the PM purists defending, not realizing legal things

PM had nothing to do with VGBC's expansion

You do realize for most of 2013 and 2014 and part of 2012 PM was the main game that got VGBC to be seen as "the stream" over the likes of Smash Studios and especially Clash Tournament right=???

Before that it was a Brawl stream converted into a Melee stream, and once PM 2.5 or so dropped, it became known as a Smash stream.

Also a lot of the #FreeGimR stuff was PM stuff.

Of course if you had been a part of the competitive scene you'd know that, but you're not/you weren't, so you're speaking out of pure unadulterated ignorance.

 

[SevereScreamo]

the fighting game where im able to play as Fox McCloud and Luigi

Then play Melee or play PM or smash 64 or smash for wii u and 3ds look at all your options

 

[Johnknight1]

It's not like a huge portion of his money and success came from the PM community or anything. Unlike the Smash 4 community, who had Nintendo practically pay the game's way into the scene, the PM community had to grow on it's own. I don't want to hear anything about being spoiled from a part of the Smash 4 community.

Gonna be honest: as it stands now, PM TO's outnumber Smash 4 TO's by a lottttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt.

I know Project M relied on Melee to get kickstarted a bit, but honestly, it's infrastructure in tournaments with TO's and scenes is a lot better than Brawl's scene ever was or Smash 4's scene is right now.

This isn't to condemn Smash 4 players, but to warn them. Don't let your scene fall like Brawl did. It still breaks my heart that Brawl players (especially ones who prefer it to Smash 4) saw their game disappear from the national scene like it did. Also, by doing this Smash 4's scene will grow exponentially faster. Melee's great infrastructure being setup from 2008-2010 came to fruition with growth in 2011, 2012, and an explosion in 2013, 2014, and 2015 that continues to this game. Follow that model by being your own game with your own TO's, instead of relying on other games' scene with their TO's.

For someone that doesn't want to be called spoiled, you sure are acting spoiled

What's spoiled with saying "we worked for this therefore we earned it?"

The Project M competitive community worked for dang near everything it had. It initially piggybacked on Melee to get out there competitively, yeah (not like Brawl or Smash 4 are any different, or heck, even Smash 64), but it has so many Project M-specific weeklies and tournaments that are going healthy now that it has the biggest and most set in stone infrastructure outside of Melee, whereas Smash 4 is basically just relying on Melee's infrastructure right now.

 

[Sammi Husky]

It's as simple as this. Gimr was making money from streaming pm right? Yes, yes he was, as so many god damn people are complaining about as a point against him. Making money from Nintendo's IP, just like making money from youtube videos of other games for example, is totally illegal if the copyright holders of the IP decide they don't want to allow it

Spoiler: Long rant is long

Tired of all these ignorant fools who think they would do differently in Gimr's shoes. It's not as simple as "**** the system, i can do what i want, they don't own me" like people are acting. While PM's legality falls within a gray zone, VGBC making money (even indirectly) from an UNOFFICIAL modification of Nintendo's IP (that could most definitely harm the profitable income of future + present iterations of the smash series, even if just a little) can and will get them a C&D. You think it won't happen, and you can just ignore it, but you can't. Eventually it will catch up to you, like not paying your taxes.

There is no way getting around it, sooner or later GimR would be faced with this decision. It is better to make the decision now rather than later when they become larger, and piss even more people off.

Quite frankly, the rotten spoiled attitude that i've seen from some of these comments make me sick. GimR has done wonders for the smash community, and if you think that he cares only about the money, you can go **** yourself and take that toxic attitude with you. We don't need more asinine douchebags in the smash community, we already have enough people who spit hate in chats and put people down just because they like a different ****ing game than you.

Instead of trying to crucify him for something he isn't even happy about, and would most definitely land him in legal trouble, how about you appreciate all the god damned work he puts in to bring this ****ing content to you to begin with.

I for one, will continue to support GimR. Good on you bro, you made a hard decision that you KNEW would garner this hate, and stuck with it.

And before people try and flame me too, i will have you know that i too support PM and everything they do. Its a great game with great developers behind it. I know better than most in these comments how hard this must be for the PM community and developers. You ever heard of Brawl Minus? It's pretty much dead, even with active devs. I would know, Im one of the lead devs on the team. You think i personally would blame GimR for dropping us if we were in their shoes? no. And i highly doubt the PM team do either.

 

[SmokedCarpenter]

Ignorant, if I do say so myself. PM has done so much for the fans, much more than Nintendo could ever do with Smash.

Right because it's definitely worth getting sued by nintendo just to please you.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Gonna be honest: as it stands now, PM TO's outnumber Smash 4 TO's by a lottttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt.

I know Project M relied on Melee to get kickstarted a bit, but honestly, it's infrastructure in tournaments with TO's and scenes is a lot better than Brawl's scene ever was or Smash 4's scene is right now.

This isn't to condemn Smash 4 players, but to warn them. Don't let your scene fall like Brawl did. It still breaks my heart that Brawl players (especially ones who prefer it to Smash 4) saw their game disappear from the national scene like it did. Also, by doing this Smash 4's scene will grow exponentially faster. Melee's great infrastructure being setup from 2008-2010 came to fruition with growth in 2011, 2012, and an explosion in 2013, 2014, and 2015 that continues to this game. Follow that model by being your own game with your own TO's, instead of relying on other games' scene with their TO's.

What's spoiled with saying "we worked for this therefore we earned it?"

The Project M competitive community worked for dang near everything it had. It initially piggybacked on Melee to get out there competitively, yeah (not like Brawl or Smash 4 are any different, or heck, even Smash 64), but it has so many Project M-specific weeklies and tournaments that are going healthy now that it has the biggest and most set in stone infrastructure outside of Melee, whereas Smash 4 is basically just relying on Melee's infrastructure right now.

Not really as much as before.

Smash 4 has picked up a lot with TOs as of more recent.

 

[Johnknight1]

Not really as much as before.

Smash 4 has picked up a lot with TOs as of more recent.

True, but I'm still not seeing any infrastructure.

There's still no yearly set schedules, Smash 4-specific streams, grassroot events at all the key regions, etc. that is independent of Project M and Melee.

There's also a lacking number of regionals and nationals planned. The only real national Smash Wii U has had was APEX, and currently, it has no other ones schedule where it will be the main event, or no Smash Wii U-specific national planned.

 

[SevereScreamo]

Ignorant, if I do say so myself. PM has done so much for the fans, much more than Nintendo could ever do with Smash.

If it was not for what Nintendo has already done for smash PM would not exist you can say whatever you want but calling people ignorant is not nice :/

 

[SmokedCarpenter]

Played Melee for 10 years and counting. Not supporting VGBC until PM is back.

So you're asking VGBC to risk getting sued by nintendo just because you're special? What? They have nothing against the game, they just don't want to lose their business. Gimr is just trying to make a living, don't ask the man to put his livelihood in jeopardy because you're salty....

 

[EpixAura]

how did he "take their money and turn his back?"
they subbed by choice knowing that their game is in a strange legal area and knowing that nintendo was getting involved with the scene more. pm players had to know that their game eventually couldn't be esports and main stream because of the legal issues. gimr isn't "turning his back" he has no choice

You definitely just asked that a few hours ago, and already got my response. Unless that was a typo, in which case, my b.

 

[GaMeR N1CK]

Then play Melee or play PM or smash 64 or smash for wii u and 3ds look at all your options

first of all sorry if ive been sounding like an asshole.my point is, this game's community shouldnt be blocked because of the "legal issues". this game has made a community of its own, similar to melee.i understand that people are making money playing this game but i dont think they are making money illegally, arent they making it from the ads/sponsor ship they do?

 

[TheOnlyGBeast]

That's a lot of ifs, buts and could ofs and not a lot of actual facts. Until I hear direct quotes from Nintendo I'm not buying any of it.

Nintendo does not need to say anything to you or any of us, get off your high horse

 

[EpixAura]

If it was not for what Nintendo has already done for smash PM would not exist you can say whatever you want but calling people ignorant is not nice :/

Nintendo making the games is one thing. Nintendo screwing over a large portion of the competitive community to make a quick buck is another. As much as people wanted Nintendo's acknowledgment, the best thing Nintendo can do for us now is stay out of the way.

 

[Inquirer]

Two points: - As far as I know this is the most basic definition of selling out for money.
- Let Nintendo try to issue a C&D and see what happens.

 

[SevereScreamo]

Nintendo making the games is one thing. Nintendo screwing over a large portion of the competitive community to make a quick buck is another. As much as people wanted Nintendo's acknowledgment, the best thing Nintendo can do for us now is stay out of the way.

Nintendo is not screwing over anyone you can still play PM go to PM tourneys Stream PM watch PM do all the PM related stuff till your heart explodes with love, this post is about VGBC making the decision to not stream PM anymore it's as simple as that if you want you can go to all the PM tourneys and organize them yourself if you want you can even host pm weeklys and stream them yourself and archive them on your own YouTube channel go ahead live your PM life with Pride!

 

[Espy Rose]

This makes me so happy.

 

[Johnknight1]

So you're asking VGBC to risk getting sued by nintendo just because you're special?

Nintendo can't sue VGBC over Project M streams, because there is no criminal or civil wrong VGBC is doing.

They can, however, demand they take them down.

If you want more legal information, look up the /r/smashbros thread about Ultra David's tweets about Project M. He's a top FGC voice/commentator who is also a lawyer who specializes in video game IP rights and whatnot, and he covered pretty much all bases involving Project M.

(it isn't illegal btw, it's just Nintendo has copyright and can order a C&D whenever they want)

Edit: And to anyone saying Project M is illegal and or a crime or civil wrong to stream or play is dead wrong. It is a breach of copyright, which means nothing unless Nintendo enforces it.

 

[|RK|]

Understandable. Man's trying to grow his business. People want Smash to be huge and successful, and there is now an opportunity to do it. A chance to grow the community and get respect as an eSport. So he does it. It's not popular, and I get why people are mad... but it is understandable.

 

[Welp?]

I mean the least he could do is promote the new pm@xanadu stream a little bit and maybe help them out with their stream quality >_>

 

[SevereScreamo]

first of all sorry if ive been sounding like an *******.my point is, this game's community shouldnt be blocked because of the "legal issues". this game has made a community of its own, similar to melee.i understand that people are making money playing this game but i dont think they are making money illegally, arent they making it from the ads/sponsor ship they do?

No need for foul language buddy no ones hostile here the games community is not being blocked go play PM right now you still can you can still stream it you can still win money at tourneys by playing it don't believe me? Invite some pals to your place and have a money match see nothing is changing with PM things are just changing for VGBC, the PM community you love is still here and is still sting and it will recover and a new channel will come in to pick up the slack

 

[Thor]

It's as simple as this. Gimr was making money from streaming pm right? Yes, yes he was, as so many god damn people are complaining about as a point against him. Making money from Nintendo's IP, just like making money from youtube videos of other games for example, is totally illegal if the copyright holders of the IP decide they don't want to allow it

Spoiler: Long rant is long

Tired of all these ignorant fools who think they would do differently in Gimr's shoes. It's not as simple as "**** the system, i can do what i want, they don't own me" like people are acting. While PM's legality falls within a gray zone, VGBC making money (even indirectly) from an UNOFFICIAL modification of Nintendo's IP (that could most definitely harm the profitable income of future + present iterations of the smash series, even if just a little) can and will get them a C&D. You think it won't happen, and you can just ignore it, but you can't. Eventually it will catch up to you, like not paying your taxes.

There is no way getting around it, sooner or later GimR would be faced with this decision. It is better to make the decision now rather than later when they become larger, and piss even more people off.

Quite frankly, the rotten spoiled attitude that i've seen from some of these comments make me sick. GimR has done wonders for the smash community, and if you think that he cares only about the money, you can go **** yourself and take that toxic attitude with you. We don't need more asinine douchebags in the smash community, we already have enough people who spit hate in chats and put people down just because they like a different ****ing game than you.

Instead of trying to crucify him for something he isn't even happy about, and would most definitely land him in legal trouble, how about you appreciate all the god damned work he puts in to bring this ****ing content to you to begin with.

I for one, will continue to support GimR. Good on you bro, you made a hard decision that you KNEW would garner this hate, and stuck with it.

And before people try and flame me too, i will have you know that i too support PM and everything they do. Its a great game with great developers behind it. I know better than most in these comments how hard this must be for the PM community and developers. You ever heard of Brawl Minus? It's pretty much dead, even with active devs. I would know, Im one of the lead devs on the team. You think i personally would blame GimR for dropping us if we were in their shoes? no. And i highly doubt the PM team do either.

<3 you Sammi.

 

[Johnknight1]

Nintendo is fine business wise.

They've lost 9 digits of money 2 years in a row, and investors are losing faith in the top executives.

They aren't dying or anything, but they relied too much on Japanese sales for the Wii U when the Japanese home console market is basically dead forever, and comparing the Wii U now to the PS4 and X1 is basically like comparing the SEGA Saturn to the PS1 and N64. The Wii U is essentially a lame duck console, mostly due to terrible marketing, an awful name, and one of the worst console launches I've ever seen (they were somehow worse off than the PS4 and X1, which had like no games).

Essentially, expect the current Nintendo executive regime gone in the next 3 years like 2003-2005 all over again.

If Nintendo wants to be relevant in the home market again, they need to innovate, not go after minimal YouTube dollars and scare away free exposure.

 

[PsychoGhost]

Sinister_Six is working on providing a super solid stream for Socal PM. Currently we are doing weeklies every saturday for PM only events to help the scene in Socal.

I personally am not very technical but am getting aid from a few people to help provide quality PM content.

There are key players / public figures for PM that are getting together to try and figure out how to kick out content.
Provide better tournaments.
And in the near future host regionals / nationals for PM in socal

I'll be there! ;D Controller in hand, willing to play friendlies or commentate whenever!

 

[Will-O-Wisp]

I cannot believe how blind and personal these comments are getting.

No, Gimr is not a sellout, he's just protecting something that he's worked incredibly hard on. Yes, much of his sub revenue came from PM players, myself included. But if you're upset, you can just unsub from him, which I will be doing not because I have anything against Gimr, but because I want to watch PM, not Sm4sh. Gimr is still a hard working member of the SMASH community, that I respect.

No community is perfect, but no one person is either. Please stop judging communities based on what seems like mindless idiots trying to be relevant in a discussion. The PM community is not "entitled", we're salty, and if you're game was in danger of dying you would be too. Just look at Melee players during Brawl's time in the spotlight.

No discussion on Nintendo's involvement in the Smash community is productive because it's all speculation. No one knows what will come of this new factor in the Smash culture as it has never happened before. We can only wait to see whether or not it actually turns out to be a good thing.

Now to all my fellow PM players: this is a defining moment. It seems that we won't be getting any sympathy from other sources, so there's only one thing we can do. We have to be stubborn. Keep playing the game, and keep loving the game as much as we ever have. When PM first came out there were even more naysayers than there are now, but we silenced them with the second largest turnout at Apex 2014, and even more incredible tournaments that year. This year, it may seem rough for us, but Melee became one of, if not the biggest self-sufficient grassroots FGC's ever. Why? Because they were stubborn; they knew their game was special. As long as the game is good, there will always be people with the good sense to play it, and I think know that PM falls under that category.

Whatever we mustered to support and grow this game before we have to double it now and show that this community isn't to be slept on. Show off PM to your friends, share streams and VODs with them, watch other PM streams (found here http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/wiki/streams).

TO's we need you more than ever now. Don't give into the pressure and stop hosting PM just 'cuz it's not as popular. People might give you ****, and hell, the turnout might not even be that great, but at least you held true; you were stubborn. And if the rest of us can do that, then there's no doubt in my mind that this game will be stubborn with us.

Good luck smashers.

TLDR: PM is still great and I'm gonna keep playing it. **** the haters.

 

[WinterShorts]

OK TourneyLocator. You're our only hope of bringing PM content to us.

 

[Johnknight1]

It actually is on a number of levels, even more so if someone makes a profit off of it in some shape or form.

Aside from anything involving making money off it explicitly (like YouTube videos with ads on it with money you make; BTW, legal monetary laws need to change to where Nintendo can make money off videos of modded and fan game using their content), and tournaments is kind of a grey area, but ultimately unless Nintendo claims copyright and/or orders a C&D it.

Also if we are using the tournament model, again, that's copyright. It also is something of a grey area, but again it isn't illegal as long as the company involved isn't blocking you. Nintendo could block or force the cancellation/removal any smash game (64, Melee, PM, Smash 4, Brawl, Smash Flash 2, Crusade, MUGEN with Nintendo characters), or any smash stream or any smash video.

That's how Nintendo blocked Brawl from being streamed at an MLG event, blocked Brawl for a few years from MLG and Melee for even more years, and was able to stop Melee from being at EVO 2013 and blocked the stream (although they only did the latter before getting murdered on social media for their stupid move). Nintendo has done it before and they can do it again.

Any video game studio can do this, and enforce this, but they all choose not to because it is ultimately a fruitless endeavor because you want to make money off your products, and hiding your products limits your exposure which limits your potential market drastically.

Ultra David on Wednesday had a great series of Tweets on the matter of Project M's legality.

Edit:

All the other company they took stages from, All the people they took music from, ect. Hell there is Persona q music in there, Atlus could go at them

No there isn't, lol. On the Brawl Vault yeah, but not in vanilla Project M.

You sound like you are lacking in knowledge buddy.

OK TourneyLocator. You're our only hope of bringing PM content to us.

...there's way more Project M streams than TourneyLocator.

Like wayyyyyyy more.

Here's the Project M stream list from /r/ssbpm to reference to.

I encourage you to look at a lot of those streams. There's a lot of quality streams with quality players. PM has many strong regions. I can't wait to see SoCal, NorCal, and Washington/BC PM get streams going more regularly that grow in quality so we see it grow. I feel like once we get the West Coast properly repped in PM via streams (although AZ Project M needs more exposure), we're gonna see a more "national feel" of PM.

 

[drewilliam]

****.. stop doing what Nintendo wants! You're helping them slowly kill project M and letting smash 4 take over

 

[Morbi]

****.. stop doing what Nintendo wants! You're helping them slowly kill project M and letting smash 4 take over

What is wrong with allowing Smash 4 to take over?

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

****.. stop doing what Nintendo wants! You're helping them slowly kill project M and letting smash 4 take over

What.

 

[PlateProp]

This makes me so happy.

Can't tell if this is an extremely well crafted troll or not

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Aside from anything involving making money off it explicitly (like YouTube videos with ads on it with money you make; BTW, legal monetary laws need to change to where Nintendo can make money off videos of modded and fan game using their content), and tournaments is kind of a grey area, but ultimately unless Nintendo claims copyright and/or orders a C&D it.

Also if we are using the tournament model, again, that's copyright. It also is something of a grey area, but again it isn't illegal as long as the company involved isn't blocking you. Nintendo could block or force the cancellation/removal any smash game (64, Melee, PM, Smash 4, Brawl, Smash Flash 2, Crusade, MUGEN with Nintendo characters), or any smash stream or any smash video.

That's how Nintendo blocked Brawl from being streamed at an MLG event, blocked Brawl for a few years from MLG and Melee for even more years, and was able to stop Melee from being at EVO 2013 and blocked the stream (although they only did the latter before getting murdered on social media for their stupid move). Nintendo has done it before and they can do it again.

Any video game studio can do this, and enforce this, but they all choose not to because it is ultimately a fruitless endeavor because you want to make money off your products, and hiding your products limits your exposure which limits your potential market drastically.

Ultra David on Wednesday had a great series of Tweets on the matter of Project M's legality.

Edit:

No there isn't, lol. On the Brawl Vault yeah, but not in vanilla Project M.

You sound like you are lacking in knowledge buddy.

...there's way more Project M streams than TourneyLocator.

Like wayyyyyyy more.

Here's the Project M stream list from /r/ssbpm to reference to.

I encourage you to look at a lot of those streams. There's a lot of quality streams with quality players. PM has many strong regions. I can't wait to see SoCal, NorCal, and Washington/BC PM get streams going more regularly that grow in quality so we see it grow. I feel like once we get the West Coast properly repped in PM via streams (although AZ Project M needs more exposure), we're gonna see a more "national feel" of PM.

I saw what ultra David said, on the end he still said it was not authorized which is this a problem with PM even if his opinion on the matter says PM can be ok, which still isn't entirely valid since Nintendo can still make a legitimate case against it.

 

[Zurreal]

Urrgh. I ****ing despise Smash 4 for this. I despise it on principle. Nintendo/Sakurai have a perfect, pristine fighting game legacy IN THE PALM OF THEIR HANDS and they choose to spit on it in favour of casuals. Hell - Technical depth didn't stop people playing Melee. Hell - Just take Smash 4. Re-release it in a while with an "Advanced Edition" option that lets you fix the dumb ledge mechanics, put wave-motion back in and generally un**** the game. I'd concede the loss of L-Cancelling as frankly it's false depth. But the movement and recovery stuff is absolutely key and their point blank refusal is naught but betrayal of the only portion of their fan base that cares.

If you can't play the game without those techniques in the game and are too lazy to learn the new mechanics that were introduced that really sounds like a problem with you as a player. Additionally, Smash 4 is not the only factor in PM backing down a bit.

 

[Zurreal]

Once again Nintendo trying to rip apart the community for pride and money...Nintendo used to be all about the gaming. if they gave a damn they would buy PM and put there name on it. This a matter of petty nonsense.

If the original content in PM was any good they probably would buy it. As it is, Melee HD would be a much better idea.

 

[Zurreal]

This whole Melee v. P:M v. Smash 4 thing will finally tear up "one unit" I suppose.

Also, people complaining: you are NOT baseless. A bunch of white knights are drifting around claiming you're like whiny brats, but honestly, this vague post brings more questions than answers, and as a proud P:M player this is a very hard update to bear.

Now that Nintendo is in the scene and games are exploding in popularity, money will dominate. Nintendo can cripple P:M through legal threats/actions because it's possible. They KNOW they can't touch Melee and they'll only promote Smash 4.

They'll suffocate P:M and force streamers to abandon it to allow for the main games to take the stage.

Feel free to call me a whiny child, but this is how it will probably go. I'm going to go to P:M tournaments and keep them going and be as vocal as possible for this community, but the future is bleak.

Th concept of Melee v. PM v. Smash 4 doesn't exist outside of PM. Elsewhere it is Smash 4 v. Melee. Only PM players consider PM players a part of the community. No one else really cares.

 

[Zurreal]

For the reason that they do not support Smash Bros players. They support Sm4sh players due to that being a corporately-beneficial decision. People have feeling, companies do not extend those feelings without the need for financial gain. They do not plan to grow the scene of a product of no value to them, they plan on cutting out the parts of the community they find "unwanted" by pushing all games not fitting into company mentality out of the spotlight, and out of the sight of esports watchers.

They are currently trying to enlarge the scene in order to get more attention and therefore more profit. If other communities weren't so vocally hateful and vindictive of Smash 4 and anyone who chooses to play it, they would probably also have tried growing those communities out as well in order to maximize exposure.

 

[Takehiko]

Even though I'm a smash 4 player, I don't want to see this happen to the pm community. Please let there be someone who's going to pick up in GrimR's place.
#oneunit #smash4pmplayers

 

[eskimoparade]

I'm sad to see a mod that fans put so much hard work into fall like this, but I never did understand the anti-Nintendo attitude that came with it.

reminder: nintendo would stop melee tournaments if they could