VGBootCamp: Regarding Project M

[Sabaca]

Everyone that plays and loves PM knew that stuff like this would happen due to copyright. Who thought everything will be fine and PM won't have any problems was blind. It is sad , but it is what everyone should have expected to happen.

 

[HalcyonDays]

If the original content in PM was any good they probably would buy it. As it is, Melee HD would be a much better idea.

Because it's just as much a pride thing, as it is a legal thing, I doubt they'd buy it, no matter how good it gets. And honestly, it seems really good. They've got a few various little nuances and somewhat creative gameplay modes and ideas that even Smash 4 doesn't have.

Although I am curious as to what Melee HD would be like. If it's just a graphical update, then I wouldn't be interested, but things like a proper online mode, or even something like a rebalancing of lower-tier characters ala Melee SD Remix would be great.

 

[lordvaati]

GimR,

I know you're gonna get **** for this, but I just wanna say thank you for what you've done for PM coverage thus far, and that I respect your decision to distance yourself from PM on legal grounds. I probably speak for more than just myself when I say thank you for directly addressing this point to our community, and that I wish you the best going forward. It hurts my heart to see PM go, but I will continue to support VGBC as a general smash platform.

P.S. This won't stop the PM tourney at Xanadu, only the streaming and posting of VoDs, right?

More people need to be like you. Then it would make the growing pains in our scenes easier to bear.

 

[Heefe]

Nintendo really doesn't know how to handle their community... on one hand they want to support the smash scene and on the other hand they're ripping us apart...

In the end it's all about the money Nintendo can get. What great did they do at APEX? Just showing that ****ty Splatoon game and putting ads here and there. -.-

This community is better without Nintendo.

 

[GJR78]

Sakurai shouldn't intentionally make smash competitively non viable then. This is probably the dumbest counter-pm argument I've ever read and it's disheartening to know how much such stupidity perpetuates itself since I've seen this same trash on multiple occasions.

The game is only as casual as YOU make it to be,a game doesn't have to have have "Advanced Techniques" to be competitive, all it needs to be competitive is for it to be a test of skill against another person and all the Smash games are like that.

 

[pelotaz0]

I don't like Project M, but it's quite coward stopping streaming that game after years doing it. That mod has always been in a questionable legal mark, so you shouldn't start streaming it from the begining. Now I see this such an action of getting closer to Nintendo and moving away from the community.

 

[Smash_Veteran_Amtoj]

reminder: nintendo would stop melee tournaments if they could

I won't say that the tournament interference didn't happen, but I think it's safe to trust them considering everything they've been doing lately to help this community out. This isn't just "Hey, we messed up." anymore, this is "We'll help make this scene stronger than ever." Come on, they're even giving this website some publicity now.

Everyone who said Nintendo should support the scene should have known it would come at the cost of Project M.

Look, it's either Nintendo's higher ups continue putting obstacles in our way, or Nintendo of America provides us a shield and some support.

 

[CAUP]

I'm fine with nintendo not supporting project m but I'm not fine with them destroying it O.O

 

[Lucumo]

I don't like Project M, but it's quite coward stopping streaming that game after years doing it. That mod has always been in a questionable legal mark, so you shouldn't start streaming it from the begining. Now I see this such an action of getting closer to Nintendo and moving away from the community.

Exactly how I see it, minus the "not liking P:M". Needless to say, I'm really disappointed in him.

 

[SmashShadow]

My favorite game is dying. I hope they continue to develop it for the gamers.

 

[KneeIsLoveKneeIsLife]

I can't believe people do NOT call him out as a sellout. Nintendo sponsorship? For what reason? They literally did NOTHING for apex.

You know, GimR does not hold any exclusive rights to stream smash. I'm glad I live in europe where it's all about the ****ing game, and not the money.

 

[KneeIsLoveKneeIsLife]

By the way. Streaming something does not break any copyright. I don't see what the **** GimR is talking about. Unless Nintendo told him 'Stop streaming PM plzzz ' it's all bull****. I can stream a mod of some game whenever I want, I didn't make the mod, I just stream it.

 

[tauKhan]

I don't like Project M, but it's quite coward stopping streaming that game after years doing it. That mod has always been in a questionable legal mark, so you shouldn't start streaming it from the begining. Now I see this such an action of getting closer to Nintendo and moving away from the community.

The situation with Nintendo has changed drastically to what it was even a year ago. Nintendo completely ignored the existence of competitive gaming before. Apparently even the MLG got no answer for request of streaming rights for brawl, one reason brawl got dropped from the cirquit. And I mean that, no answer at all, just silence.

Now that Nintendo acknowledges us and even shows support for tournaments like apex, streaming pm is much much bigger risk, whether you like it or not.

I feel bad for Gimr for getting this much hate for not taking a huge personal risk.

 

[SolCalibre]

Remember that the base of Project M is that it's a mod. Companies didn't make games so that we, the public (or 3rd party) can just change it to the way we want the game to be handled. It's funny how the majority of players value a mod higher than official works. If companies made games simply just for us to mod it then there would be entire varieties of such games (too much for some) or they may as well just hire us (which they never do).

Nintendo is proud; they don't want games they didn't create or altered to be the popular or pioneer game to the public. They want their games or works to be "By Nintendo" on everything. Of course, the public has other ideas nearly all the time and it makes me think why Nintendo hasn't practiced being in touch with their fanbase like other companies.

One quote I read was that Nintendo were full of (i'll tone it down here) "Old, stubborn japanese men who don't listen".
P.s I wasn't expecting to write so much (and lol Nintendo movement is strong!)

 

[xaszatm]

Again, I am confronted with the fact that Smash 4 is a hated game. Why is that game even being brought up here? Hell, why is Nintendo being brought up here? This is about Project M, and the amount pure bile being spat out is making the Project M fans look less and less appealing to someone who wants to enter the scene.

Does this suck? Yes, I totally understand why Project M fans are upset. But I can also see why Gimr did this. It's a business decision and sometimes business decisions can be unpopular.

Also, for all you guys saying that hard work is totally a good reason why Project M should be lauded as a great game, what about Sakurai? You guys seem to have no problems harping on the guy, even wishing bad things to happen despite him and his team almost working themselves to death to give you content. Content you seem happy to change. I've even seen support for a "Project M" for the Wii U game despite it not even being a year old yet. Why? Why are you guys this determined to kill the Smash 4 scene?

And another thing, Nintendo has brought more exposure towards your competitive scene than your Project M ever did. Do you really think that the large numbers of both Melee and Smash 4 at Apex 2015 was just because of community roots? No, a lot of people signed up for it after Nintendo really on board with the competitive scene. A solid year of hyping everything up plus Smash 4's focus at Nintendo's E3 and the Invitational brought more people into the competitive side. Plus, the amount of set ups supplied by Nintendo is more proof of how Nintendo has helped the scene.

A lot of the attitude here reminds me of what people said about Capcom getting invloved with EVO. There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth yet Capcom greatly enhanced EVO into its impressive state today. I do hope people can see this.

 

[Dryzzen]

Wes' video is pretty relevant to this subject right now.

When the big esports money comes what are people going to do? Are they going to leave behind the fans that freed them? Are they going to ignore what brought their channel to the forefront? Are they going to completely amputate a large part of the scene?

Tune into azprojectmelee, windycitysmash, gameunderground, tourneylocator, or iebattlegrounds, who are really the ones keeping the love of the game alive.

And Underworldgamez streaming PM too.

 

[Joe73191]

If Nintendo really cared about us they would make a PM styled special edition of Smash4. Instead we keep seeing PM get hit harder and harder and it just makes me hate nintendo more and more.

 

[xaszatm]

If Nintendo really cared about us they would make a PM styled special edition of Smash4. Instead we keep seeing PM get hit harder and harder and it just makes me hate nintendo more and more.

And why should the Smash 4 game change to fit what you like? I like Smash 4's mechanics. I'm clearly a pariah for admitting that given how hated Smash 4 seems to be, but damn it I enjoy it's style and I enjoyed its tournaments far more than I did Melee's. Why do I have to get kicked out for you guys? I'm utterly at a loss right now. I really wanted to join the Smash 4 community but the current attitude makes me so scared of even trying to join. Is hate all I can look for even if I manage to get good at this game?

 

[Joe73191]

And why should the Smash 4 game change to fit what you like? I like Smash 4's mechanics. I'm clearly a pariah for admitting that given how hated Smash 4 seems to be, but damn it I enjoy it's style and I enjoyed its tournaments far more than I did Melee's. Why do I have to get kicked out for you guys? I'm utterly at a loss right now. I really wanted to join the Smash 4 community but the current attitude makes me so scared of even trying to join. Is hate all I can look for even if I manage to get good at this game?

Why can't a separate version of the game be released. A special edition. You can have yours and I can have mine. Why should I get kicked out for liking what I like? Why can't everyone win?

 

[xaszatm]

Why can't a separate version of the game be released. A special edition. You can have yours and I can have mine. Why should I get kicked out for liking what I like? Why can't everyone win?

Honestly, you can be like every fighting game community in existence an still play the game you like. Every fighting game series drastically changes between games. People who like older games...play the older games. There's nothing wrong with that. But to demand that another mode be created just for you, which would take a lot of time and effort seems really greedy to me. A man worked to almost literal death for a game and your response is "you haven't worked hard enough?" I'm even shocked that such a opinion can exist.

 

[Gidy]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't you argue that Project M is still Super Smash Bros Brawl and it's fine to make money off of it?

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

I'm fine with nintendo not supporting project m but I'm not fine with them destroying it O.O

But Nintendo ISN'T destroying it at all

Correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't you argue that Project M is still Super Smash Bros Brawl and it's fine to make money off of it?

No because if the PM people make money off of it, Nintendo will have the right to actually sue them for making money of a product that is still theirs. Isnt that what they want to AVOID?

 

[DidacticDad]

Again, I am confronted with the fact that Smash 4 is a hated game. Why is that game even being brought up here? Hell, why is Nintendo being brought up here? This is about Project M, and the amount pure bile being spat out is making the Project M fans look less and less appealing to someone who wants to enter the scene.

Does this suck? Yes, I totally understand why Project M fans are upset. But I can also see why Gimr did this. It's a business decision and sometimes business decisions can be unpopular.

Also, for all you guys saying that hard work is totally a good reason why Project M should be lauded as a great game, what about Sakurai? You guys seem to have no problems harping on the guy, even wishing bad things to happen despite him and his team almost working themselves to death to give you content. Content you seem happy to change. I've even seen support for a "Project M" for the Wii U game despite it not even being a year old yet. Why? Why are you guys this determined to kill the Smash 4 scene?

And another thing, Nintendo has brought more exposure towards your competitive scene than your Project M ever did. Do you really think that the large numbers of both Melee and Smash 4 at Apex 2015 was just because of community roots? No, a lot of people signed up for it after Nintendo really on board with the competitive scene. A solid year of hyping everything up plus Smash 4's focus at Nintendo's E3 and the Invitational brought more people into the competitive side. Plus, the amount of set ups supplied by Nintendo is more proof of how Nintendo has helped the scene.

A lot of the attitude here reminds me of what people said about Capcom getting invloved with EVO. There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth yet Capcom greatly enhanced EVO into its impressive state today. I do hope people can see this.

Yes. This.

As a grown man with a family, mortgage, and responsibilities, I respect these rational viewpoints.

If it is that important to the Project M scene, the people disrespecting should carve out their own time/resources and pick up where VGBC left off. Quit bawwing and start doing.

 

[xpnet]

Gimr,

If it's a legal GREY area the best thing for you is not try to change a brand that is built on a Grey Area. Start NEW channels on youtube and twitch.

By starting a NEW channel that isn't associated with all the efforts and support giving to you by the PM community. See if this new channel can stand on it's own without all the PM support. Make a new brand for competitive smash broadcasting and see if that channel can stand on it's own feet without riding the coat tails of the PM community.

This is if you are serious about moving forward otherwise you will have lots of hate and resentment from lot of us in the community. We all understand this is something you want to do but if your going to do it right, you have to do it on your own without the PM crutch.

You can always keep the old channels that still hold all the support and community love for PM and keep something you love on the side. Then you are trully separated from the two.

 

[MegaMango]

Not trying to be that guy but this was expected. I mean it Is a MOD. Some thought it was next best thing and I did too at one point. But not long after, all I saw was copyright strike. R.I.P

Yeah, but even if it is a mod, there are companies that embrace mods ad learn from them; they learn how to keep the player base happy. Nintendo is not doing that at all.

Sometimes, I get really happy and excited with what Nintendo has done and what they are going to do, but seeing how they treat Smash and the community as a whole makes me really upset.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Nintendo really doesn't know how to handle their community... on one hand they want to support the smash scene and on the other hand they're ripping us apart...

In the end it's all about the money Nintendo can get. What great did they do at APEX? Just showing that ****ty Splatoon game and putting ads here and there. -.-

This community is better without Nintendo.

If Nintendo really cared about us they would make a PM styled special edition of Smash4. Instead we keep seeing PM get hit harder and harder and it just makes me hate nintendo more and more.

Man, the stupidity and ignorance reeking from posts like this really sickens me. Nintendo hasn't done anything against PM so far, this is just a decision taken by the streamers. We haven't seen any anti-support actions from them, your reactions are just childish.
Secondly, please stop pretending that not giving you a mod for an existing game equals not caring about you. Victimizing yourself and thinking that they owe you more for the product that they are giving you is a low move. Smash 4 is a game of it's own; it's not Melee, it's not Brawl, but it's own thing and a damn good one. They don't have to alter the whole game engine for the sake of making something up to your measure. Stop with the self-pity.

This community is better without Nintendo.

Overreaction much?
A community that revolves around a game series comprised of several Nintendo properties, who happens to be developed by people who work with Nintendo. Since you are here, I assume you like or liked Smash at a certain point yet adopt an anti-Nintendo attitude whilst still wanting to play with their characters and games. Go figure.
And it's not like they have done anything "evil" to us as of late, but you probably simply wanted to fancy yourself a martyr standing against the evil company known as Nintendo and Sakurai, a guy who is as bad as Hitler and probably hates puppies too. But you want to play their games. Huh.

 

[[OCK]LLama]

Game genie and PM are far different beasts but nice I like the research A+ less name calling next time.

There's a difference between nintendrones and people who have a reasonable reason to defend nintendo.

But if you want to put yourself in to the more negative category so you can be offended, fine, be my guest.

 

[Cpt.]

PM is literally the only reason that I found out about VGBootCamp, you should feel ashamed even if you believe this to be the right decision.

 

[Mister the Wizard]

This makes me sad. I understand and I don't blame them for their decision, but it still hurts a bit. I found Project M through VGBC and learned most of what I know from watching streams and youtube videos. It's sad to see it go, as it really is an amazing game. Farewell, Project M, you will be missed, and hopefully we'll see you again someday.

 

[Hana Na Tahou]

People, hold on a moment, take a deep breath, and think. It's a video game, regardless of how you feel, it's a video game, and "esports" is quickly growing into a business. Everybody's got a price, or people are too cheap (which killed my first love, DDR in NA). GimR either got a good price, or was nervous about the potential to pay a big price down the line. Also have any of you considered that possibly VGBC is trying to protect PM by putting it under the bed, so to say, so it doesn't get big enough to the point where something could potentially happen to it? Planes on radar get shot down, sometimes being noticed is a bad thing. Would you rather have a cover of darkness, or no game to play? Also, i reiterate, it is a video game people. I understand the passion behind something you love, but at this point, it's not the end of the world. Play the game, support it, simple as that. You can keep the game alive by playing it and supporting it. Clearly i may have miscalculated my decision to become a part of this "community" after the Rhythm game "community" died out. I didn't come here because i wanted to see a bunch of adults/teenagers argue over a video game or a mod of one, i came here to play Smash and enjoy my time doing so, and right now some of you make that Extremely difficult.

 

[Bladeviper]

Everyone is quick to blame nintendo but I would like to point out that there are at least 2 other companies that could sue over PM, sega and konami both have rights to their characters and could do anything nintendo could do legally

 

[myK]

rest in pepperoni PM

 

[Gionni]

I can see why, I see some RIP PM comments, and that's not true, vgbootcamp will not stream PM? Ok we'll find an alternative. For as many things that will be done against PM we'll find a way to continue, this is not the end. PM started as a little thing and now it's pretty big, but how did it become big, thanks to the community, and unless the community gives up project m will continue to rise

 

[Hellrazor]

I did not say the PM Team was claiming ownership I was clarifying the fact that they do not have ownership and they are using Nintendo's properties without their permission and PM Team has no right to do that also Nintendo is no longer producing Melee anymore so if you buy a copy of Melee it's probably used and Nintendo sees no money from that same goes for brawl. Also mods can be harmful they can screw up consoles and allow people to steal games obviously we all know PM is not a mod like that and is only good and there to enhance are experience of a already good game but Nintendo is to large of a company and has to many other priorities to differentiate what mods are harmful and what mods are not so they make an easy to follow rule like no mods. The solution for PM is easily visible and the solution is to build their own original fighter from the ground up like other fighters like skull girls but in the vein of SSBM that is the way to make it so their game is 100% legal and streamable. I may have a reason for why PM is targeted so closely also the reason is that PM is a very commercial mod having things like its own site its own competitive scene, its own logo, trailers,versions, updates, hype, etc... Long story shot PM is an awesome huge and popular mod so it's easier for a big company like Nintendo to see and to hear about unlike small mods and alt costume packs that are small and not so popular. Hope that clarifies things also could we refrain from using foul language and stay civil.

I think we need a clearly defined law regarding the use of mods. Copyrights aren't being infringed, clearly, since Nintendo would have hopped on that real fast. Warranty breaks don't really mean anything for Nintendo, just the player. I read someone say profiting off of the mod is illegal, which I could understand, though I think what exactly profit means (specific means of acquiring said profit) needs to be explicitly defined as well. The stream is profiting from ads and subscribers, while it pictures content of PM among other Smash games. I've never seen a PM-exclusive partnered channel. Which game they're playing isn't necessarily an aspect of the revenue (it influences demographics but that's really as far as it goes). Twitch is the one shelling out the cash they get from the sub fees and ad companies. It's not PM itself that they're making money from.

So I guess this just lends more into it being an overall uncertainty, since we're not really sure where we stand.

 

[Gionni]

Urrgh. I ****ing despise Smash 4 for this. I despise it on principle. Nintendo/Sakurai have a perfect, pristine fighting game legacy IN THE PALM OF THEIR HANDS and they choose to spit on it in favour of casuals. Hell - Technical depth didn't stop people playing Melee. Hell - Just take Smash 4. Re-release it in a while with an "Advanced Edition" option that lets you fix the dumb ledge mechanics, put wave-motion back in and generally un**** the game. I'd concede the loss of L-Cancelling as frankly it's false depth. But the movement and recovery stuff is absolutely key and their point blank refusal is naught but betrayal of the only portion of their fan base that cares.

It's not smash 4's fault, it's a game, a game can't do anything on its own, nor is smash 4's community. I hate to say this but, more than it's Nintendo's fault, for not using mods as a way to gain but for looking at it as a problem

 

[Malkasaur]

Ugh, reading over some of these comments hurts. Oh boo hoo. A single channel on Twitch wont stream gameplay of a mod (A mod that, in my opinion, isn't even that good, but that's just my opinion.). It's not like there are countless other people that stream PM gameplay, oh wait, THERE ARE.

EDIT: Oh, and in case you forgot, PM is a MOD, not an official game.

 

[Sovereign]

I can see why this is happening. As unfortunate as it is, GimR needs Nintendo as a potential sponsor and since they make money off PM through subscriptions, Nintendo could threaten legal action and/or back off from future events.

Let's talk about past events. Where were they at Apex, when the initial venue fell through? Why did Twitch have to step in to provide a venue for their game?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Hey, Nintendo has nothing to with this. Get your salty arses straight. If Nintendo wanted PM to die, they wouldn't do this but use a cease and desist, which they haven't done! PM has legal issues about hacking and iirc CastleVania content is in PM. Did the PM devs ask Konami permission? No? Copyright. I do admit, shame it's going, the leaked/rumoured newcomers sound awesome, especially Isaac and Ridley, unless it's Skull Kid, who'd be neat too!

 

[Laserbeamed]

Gimr,

If it's a legal GREY area the best thing for you is not try to change a brand that is built on a Grey Area. Start NEW channels on youtube and twitch.

By starting a NEW channel that isn't associated with all the efforts and support giving to you by the PM community. See if this new channel can stand on it's own without all the PM support. Make a new brand for competitive smash broadcasting and see if that channel can stand on it's own feet without riding the coat tails of the PM community.

This is if you are serious about moving forward otherwise you will have lots of hate and resentment from lot of us in the community. We all understand this is something you want to do but if your going to do it right, you have to do it on your own without the PM crutch.

You can always keep the old channels that still hold all the support and community love for PM and keep something you love on the side. Then you are trully separated from the two.

This is a very toxic attitude because you don't want him to stand on his own. You want him to suffer.

Even without this announcement, it would hurt him to switch his identity because at this point a lot of people have heard of him just because of Apex 2015, myself included. Any switch would not be representative of support of this announcement; he'd lose thousands of people not affiliated with the situation. It wouldn't be standing without a crutch; it would be an inherent handicap with the people who either didn't hear or don't care... or even support... his decision about PM.

From what I see, Gimr streamed PM in the past and helped the community. In return, people gave him money per month for doing so. If he streamed it last month, the only real issue is that people have given him money for a service in the first few days of this month and he won't deliver. People aren't out all the money they gave him. They are out all the money for this month. Maybe this applies to previous months as well if they "toned it down" and have been delivering less and less content. But I'd need information on stream rates across the entire time to voice an opinion on that.

What matters most is right now. As of this announcement, people can unsubscribe to the man on the principle that he is no longer providing a service that was their reason for subbing in the first place. The free market is supposed to have the dollar do the complaining. If a company does you wrong, you move on to the competitor. All of this bashing of Gimr is nonsensical to me. If people are upset, that's understandable. But it's not like Gimr isn't going to continue to do a service for the community. And you can't ignore he helped out in the past.

If Nintendo is going to be a part of the community, you are going to need to have a few people up their professional image. PM wasn't going to make the cut. As the Gimrs drop the mods, other people will take their place. PM will only die if people let it.

 

[MagnesD3]

What is wrong with allowing Smash 4 to take over?

Its a worse game.