VGBootCamp: Regarding Project M

[memk]

Nintendo doesn't care about the competitive community... they just want their share of money just like with all the let's player stuff.

Most people have absolutely no benefits from Nintendo's support except the streamers. That's why I say the Smash scene was better off before Nintendo got involved. At least nobody had to think about PM being legal or not.

You do realize that Nintendo knew about PM a long time ago right? They just choose not to do anything about it. It's actually rather nice of them to not issue out a C&D for it, but no you guys gotta get all fed up over a mod. Just to play a game that came out in 2001

 

[memk]

Oh yea almost forgot. Twitch and Nintendo helped out with getting the new venue for APEX not just twitch. TWITCH AND NINTENDO, put up the money.

 

[Toranos]

I can understand it.

 

[USB3.0]

Good god, all these kneejerk reactions.

No one thinks to consider the fact that there are legal issues involved with not streaming it, but endorsing it. Everyone flipping their **** about Nintendo forcing these fail to realize the legal issues that arise if they were to endorse it through sponsorship of an event that hosts it. If Nintendo wanted P:M or any other mods dead, they would have done it years ago. To them, it doesn't exist, so they don't have to do anything about it and people can still enjoy it.

Nintendo wants to join in to our scene, help us grow, and the only cost is you'll see P:M less because of legal issues with endorsement. Does that mean you can't play it? No. Does that mean you can't watch it? No. But bigger streams that cover a ton of events that might be sponsored have to stop, to protect themselves, to protect P:M.

Quit acting like spoiled children and realize it's bigger than "they don't like it." If you didn't see this coming when P:M was getting developed and recognized, you are blind. Every community deals with hurdles. Did you see SF players cry and whine when 3 replaced 2? When 4 replaced 3? People still play them and kept on. So keep playing it and keep on going. Stream it yourself, host your own events where you stream it.

 

[Mach5Mike]

I completely understand the situation, I know PM is a mod and that legal issues are why decisions like this has to be made, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. In all seriousness, does the PM community still have friends in high places anymore?

 

[EpixAura]

Again, I am confronted with the fact that Smash 4 is a hated game. Why is that game even being brought up here? Hell, why is Nintendo being brought up here? This is about Project M, and the amount pure bile being spat out is making the Project M fans look less and less appealing to someone who wants to enter the scene.

Does this suck? Yes, I totally understand why Project M fans are upset. But I can also see why Gimr did this. It's a business decision and sometimes business decisions can be unpopular.

Also, for all you guys saying that hard work is totally a good reason why Project M should be lauded as a great game, what about Sakurai? You guys seem to have no problems harping on the guy, even wishing bad things to happen despite him and his team almost working themselves to death to give you content. Content you seem happy to change. I've even seen support for a "Project M" for the Wii U game despite it not even being a year old yet. Why? Why are you guys this determined to kill the Smash 4 scene?

And another thing, Nintendo has brought more exposure towards your competitive scene than your Project M ever did. Do you really think that the large numbers of both Melee and Smash 4 at Apex 2015 was just because of community roots? No, a lot of people signed up for it after Nintendo really on board with the competitive scene. A solid year of hyping everything up plus Smash 4's focus at Nintendo's E3 and the Invitational brought more people into the competitive side. Plus, the amount of set ups supplied by Nintendo is more proof of how Nintendo has helped the scene.

A lot of the attitude here reminds me of what people said about Capcom getting invloved with EVO. There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth yet Capcom greatly enhanced EVO into its impressive state today. I do hope people can see this.

As nice as this post sounds, it's just dead wrong at certain places. If you can't figure out why Nintendo is being brought up, you should read the original post more carefully. Second, I've seen almost no one wish bad things on Sakurai beyond Twitch chat, which really shouldn't be taken seriously in the first place. However, you can't deny that he's blatantly ignored the competitive side of the community, and borderline giving us the middle finger at times. And do you care to explain why supporting PM mean we're trying to kill the Smash 4 scene?

I'd also like to add you're overestimating the positive effects Nintendo has had on the community. This amount of growth is natural, and while Nintendo has helped grow the scene a small bit, that's more than a little offset by the fact that a lot of us haven't been able to watch the game we love in a national event in a very long time.

 

[hype machine]

Good god, all these kneejerk reactions.

No one thinks to consider the fact that there are legal issues involved with not streaming it, but endorsing it. Everyone flipping their **** about Nintendo forcing these fail to realize the legal issues that arise if they were to endorse it through sponsorship of an event that hosts it. If Nintendo wanted P:M or any other mods dead, they would have done it years ago. To them, it doesn't exist, so they don't have to do anything about it and people can still enjoy it.

Nintendo wants to join in to our scene, help us grow, and the only cost is you'll see P:M less because of legal issues with endorsement. Does that mean you can't play it? No. Does that mean you can't watch it? No. But bigger streams that cover a ton of events that might be sponsored have to stop, to protect themselves, to protect P:M.

Quit acting like spoiled children and realize it's bigger than "they don't like it." If you didn't see this coming when P:M was getting developed and recognized, you are blind. Every community deals with hurdles. Did you see SF players cry and whine when 3 replaced 2? When 4 replaced 3? People still play them and kept on. So keep playing it and keep on going. Stream it yourself, host your own events where you stream it.

Every pm fan saw this coming, if you didn't see an outrage coming you're blind, people love pm and people have the right to be angry about it. People did complain about street fighter 4. Yes every community has hurdles but don't compare pm obstacles to a game that bought its way into the competetive scene

 

[USB3.0]

Every pm fan saw this coming, if you didn't see an outrage coming you're blind, people love pm and people have the right to be angry about it. People did complain about street fighter 4. Yes every community has hurdles but don't compare pm obstacles to a game that bought its way into the competetive scene

P:M fans have every right to be angry about it, but no right to insult others or make bat**** claims. If you have an issue, fine. Handle it like an adult. Don't support GimR anymore because you can't watch P:M on VGBC, fine. Don't go to APEX because it doesn't have P:M, fine. But don't go cursing the name or hating on people who like what you don't that want to see other things grow. I don't play P:M but I have nothing against it, and I want to see Smash 4 grow too. It sucks that P:M streams and tournaments are going to be lessened but not only was it expected, it doesn't completely kill it either. There will still be streams and tournaments for P:M. It can still grow, if the people who play it quit moaning about streams and tournaments not hosting it and start hosting it themselves. That's what I plan to do.

 

[Inverted reflex]

I'm not surprised at all about this. I'm having too much fun with Smash 4 to care about the future of Project M.

Please go away

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

It's Nintendo's policy that puts PM in the murky legal territory which causes VGBC to want to distance themselves from it. If PM was considered a legitimate mod by Nintendo, VGBC wouldn't be doing this.

And that policy is?....

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Please go away

Let people have fun, this kind of attitude is dumb yes, but the way you act is basically why PM gets flack

 

[xaszatm]

Then why can't nintendo leave PM alone. Either they should make something like or they should leave it alone. They shouldn't however say "Well we don't care that you like this, we are going to prevent you from watching it or having tournaments oh and we're not going to make anything like it either." If nintendo doesn't want to make a mode for the PM crowd then they shouldn't be hurting the PM community.

In your world I'm driven away with nothing to compensate me. In your world the PM people are basically told "go shove off, we don't want you here." Is that what you want, for the PM people to have nothing? To be forced to play something else, to be driven from the community. What if someone said smash4 shouldn't exist? It is the same thing for the PM people when you say PM shouldn't exist. I am deeply hurt that such opinions can be real.

EXCEPT THEY DIDN'T SAY THAT! Nintendo has said nothing because they cannot say anything. They have known about Project M at least since before the announcement of the Smash Invitational (a few of the players were more famous Project M people). They prefer to say nothing because, if they were to admit Project M was a thing, it would be to destroy it. So they keep their mouths shut about the mod so it can still exist, not that its fans, with its irrational hatred towards the FREAKING GUYS WHO MADE THE GAME, instead will hate on Nintendo and Sakurai with insane glee.

And, "compensate you"? COMPENSATE YOU? I'm sorry, you are ENTITLED to a smash game just for YOU? Are you dense? Do you honestly think that your little mod was the first mod created to "balance" a fighting game? Do you honestly think that your little Project M was the first example of a mod that got more popular than an actual game in the series to be played at national tournaments? Because let me tell you about a game called Street Fighter II: Rainbow Edition. It was a huge mod on the Street Fighter II game. It was so huge that it got a billing on Evo for a few years. Then, Capcom got interested in Evo and decided to sponsor it. Rainbow Edition was no longer around. Oh how people gnashed their teeth at the news, thinking that Capcom killed Street Fighter's chances. Except it didn't and now Street Fighter is hands down THE biggest name in the fighting game genre. And now I see the exact same thing happening here. It's like history doomed to repeat itself by selfish insane fans.

Look, I'm sorry that your precious little Project M will no longer be in the spotlight. But there are still tournaments in Street Fighter II: Rainbow Edition. Your scene will not die just because of some people want to pull out.

As nice as this post sounds, it's just dead wrong at certain places. If you can't figure out why Nintendo is being brought up, you should read the original post more carefully. Second, I've seen almost no one wish bad things on Sakurai beyond Twitch chat, which really shouldn't be taken seriously in the first place. However, you can't deny that he's blatantly ignored the competitive side of the community, and borderline giving us the middle finger at times. And do you care to explain why supporting PM mean we're trying to kill the Smash 4 scene?

I'd also like to add you're overestimating the positive effects Nintendo has had on the community. This amount of growth is natural, and while Nintendo has helped grow the scene a small bit, that's more than a little offset by the fact that a lot of us haven't been able to watch the game we love in a national event in a very long time.

Nintendo is being brought up as a scapegoat as if people weren't aware that a mod had little ground. You aren't the first people who did this, none of the other companies support a mod in national fighting game tournaments and you guys aren't special enough to be made an exception. And he's not ignoring your community, it's just that he also listens to the casual side. A side that exists despite the competitive fans determined to think that they don't or that they are a "small" part of the community. Furthermore, if he were to listen to the competitive side, he's probably more likely to listen to the Japanese competitive side (which doesn't worship Melee as much as the west and has a larger preference to Final Destination-styled maps and...well, what do you know?) than the western side.

I also never said that supporting Project M meant you were trying to kill Smash 4. But look at the comments. People are screaming that they hate Smash 4 "on principle". Does that really look like the type of person that is not trying to "kill" the game out of spite?

The amount of growth is "natural"? No it isn't. In case you haven't notice, the popularity of competitive Smash received a sharp increase everytime Nintendo said anything about it. And you haven't been able to watch a mod you love at a national event. Sounds just like Street Fighter II: Project Rainbow. Except the removal of that mod didn't kill Street Fighter's popularity. And neither will the removal of your mod. Nor will it remove people who want to stream and do tournament of that game. What will kill the Smash community? A desire to kick out Nintendo and all the new people who want to join in like me.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

EXCEPT THEY DIDN'T SAY THAT! Nintendo has said nothing because they cannot say anything. They have known about Project M at least since before the announcement of the Smash Invitational (a few of the players were more famous Project M people). They prefer to say nothing because, if they were to admit Project M was a thing, it would be to destroy it. So they keep their mouths shut about the mod so it can still exist, not that its fans, with its irrational hatred towards the FREAKING GUYS WHO MADE THE GAME, instead will hate on Nintendo and Sakurai with insane glee.

And, "compensate you"? COMPENSATE YOU? I'm sorry, you are ENTITLED to a smash game just for YOU? Are you dense? Do you honestly think that your little mod was the first mod created to "balance" a fighting game? Do you honestly think that your little Project M was the first example of a mod that got more popular than an actual game in the series to be played at national tournaments? Because let me tell you about a game called Street Fighter II: Rainbow Edition. It was a huge mod on the Street Fighter II game. It was so huge that it got a billing on Evo for a few years. Then, Capcom got interested in Evo and decided to sponsor it. Rainbow Edition was no longer around. Oh how people gnashed their teeth at the news, thinking that Capcom killed Street Fighter's chances. Except it didn't and now Street Fighter is hands down THE biggest name in the fighting game genre. And now I see the exact same thing happening here. It's like history doomed to repeat itself by selfish insane fans.

Look, I'm sorry that your precious little Project M will no longer be in the spotlight. But there are still tournaments in Street Fighter II: Rainbow Edition. Your scene will not die just because of some people want to pull out.



Nintendo is being brought up as a scapegoat as if people weren't aware that a mod had little ground. You aren't the first people who did this, none of the other companies support a mod in national fighting game tournaments and you guys aren't special enough to be made an exception. And he's not ignoring your community, it's just that he also listens to the casual side. A side that exists despite the competitive fans determined to think that they don't or that they are a "small" part of the community. Furthermore, if he were to listen to the competitive side, he's probably more likely to listen to the Japanese competitive side (which doesn't worship Melee as much as the west and has a larger preference to Final Destination-styled maps and...well, what do you know?) than the western side.

I also never said that supporting Project M meant you were trying to kill Smash 4. But look at the comments. People are screaming that they hate Smash 4 "on principle". Does that really look like the type of person that is not trying to "kill" the game out of spite?

The amount of growth is "natural"? No it isn't. In case you haven't notice, the popularity of competitive Smash received a sharp increase everytime Nintendo said anything about it. And you haven't been able to watch a mod you love at a national event. Sounds just like Street Fighter II: Project Rainbow. Except the removal of that mod didn't kill Street Fighter's popularity. And neither will the removal of your mod. Nor will it remove people who want to stream and do tournament of that game. What will kill the Smash community? A desire to kick out Nintendo and all the new people who want to join in like me.

Only thing I disagree with is people hating Sm4sh now because of this. They already hated it for not being melee, Apex proved that

 

[Trickerhere]

I wonder how TKBreezy is handling this since his commentating originated from PM.

 

[Swampy948]

Can someone tell me how there are legal issues? I'm serious. The PMDT is not claiming Brawl as their own game, nor are they taking any money for the mod

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Can someone tell me how there are legal issues? I'm serious. The PMDT is not claiming Brawl as their own game, nor are they taking any money for the mod

Copyright, using stuff without permission, CastleVania for example

 

[Swampy948]

Copyright, using stuff without permission, CastleVania for example

I guess I can understand that. But they're not taking any credit for it. Nintendo has let it go this far.

 

[Zzuxon]

Can someone tell me how there are legal issues? I'm serious. The PMDT is not claiming Brawl as their own game, nor are they taking any money for the mod

If Nintendo acknowledges Project:M, they basically have to shut it down, not because of anything the PMDT is doing, but because of the bad precedent it might create.
Luckily, Nintendo is nice enough that they don't want to shut down project M, so they have to ignore it. Totally. And yes, this means that P:M can't be at Nintendo sponsored Tournaments, but the alternative is a C&D.

 

[Damp]

how did he "take their money and turn his back?"
they subbed by choice knowing that their game is in a strange legal area and knowing that nintendo was getting involved with the scene more. pm players had to know that their game eventually couldn't be esports and main stream because of the legal issues. gimr isn't "turning his back" he has no choice

what do you want him to do? keep streaming and uploading pm and put all his other work at risk? he even said that the videos would be relocated to a new place so he's clearly not "turning his back" on pm

I wish he didn't partner with Nintendo since all they did was try to stop us until it got too big for them to stop and they could monetize it. It's really just one big sellout.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I guess I can understand that. But they're not taking any credit for it. Nintendo has let it go this far.

They let it go too far by not putting a C&D but ignoring it so it can live?

 

[Swampy948]

If Nintendo acknowledges Project:M, they basically have to shut it down, not because of anything the PMDT is doing, but because of the bad precedent it might create.
Luckily, Nintendo is nice enough that they don't want to shut down project M, so they have to ignore it. Totally. And yes, this means that P:M can't be at Nintendo sponsored Tournaments, but the alternative is a C&D.

That makes sense, sadly...

And yes, I'm probably stupid for asking, but what's a C&D?

 

[G-Rated]

I stopped watching VGBC a long time ago, so I have no reactions towards this. I've been watching TourneyLocater for a while now. Anyways, best of luck with whatever you do GimR

 

[Cutie Gwen]

That makes sense, sadly...

And yes, I'm probably stupid for asking, but what's a C&D?

Cease and Desist, if you get that, you are forced to stop whatever it is you're doing and drop it. Happened to the Mother 3 fan translation

 

[Venom_909]

Kreygasm. I support where do i join

Once its finished we will post up the group in the main PM facebook groups and on smashboards.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

According to this article http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthic...w-its-characters-in-other-media-license-free/
Nintendo now allows the use of its IP's in any non-commercial way...

So isn't PM kinda safe form a C&D now?

 

[GmJn]

Well, RIP Tuesdays no more VGBC for me until PM is back. I don't feel any animosity towards them for the decision but I have no logical reason to watch anymore. Good luck, I hope someone rises to take their place as a PM stream.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Played Melee for 10 years and counting. Not supporting VGBC until PM is back.

Nobody's stopping you from boiling in your own stew.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Wait that also means Nintendo doesn't disprove of it!

According to this article http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthic...w-its-characters-in-other-media-license-free/
Nintendo now allows the use of its IP's in any non-commercial way...

So isn't PM kinda safe form a C&D now?

 

[hype machine]

I stopped watching VGBC a long time ago, so I have no reactions towards this. I've been watching TourneyLocater for a while now. Anyways, best of luck with whatever you do GimR

When does tourney locater stream?

 

[USB3.0]

Happened to the Mother 3 fan translation

What? Tomato finished it...and patched it twice. And it's still up to download.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

What? Tomato finished it...and patched it twice. And it's still up to download.

Uh, pretty sure the C&D was after that and the ROM was leaked, though I'm not a law student

 

[LimitCrown]

According to this article http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthic...w-its-characters-in-other-media-license-free/
Nintendo now allows the use of its IP's in any non-commercial way...

So isn't PM kinda safe form a C&D now?

I think that is referring to something else. It doesn't really protect Project M.

 

[USB3.0]

Uh, pretty sure the C&D was after that and the ROM was leaked, though I'm not a law student

If it was C&D'd it wouldn't be available. C&D means stop production AND no longer host whatever you were doing in any form. If he got a C&D that page and its files would be long gone. You might be thinking of something else, maybe someone trying to sell the fan translation on reproduction carts?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

If it was C&D'd it wouldn't be available. C&D means stop production AND no longer host whatever you were doing in any form. If he got a C&D that page and its files would be long gone. You might be thinking of something else, maybe someone trying to sell the fan translation on reproduction carts?

People who downloaded it before the C&D leaked it

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

According to this article http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthic...w-its-characters-in-other-media-license-free/
Nintendo now allows the use of its IP's in any non-commercial way...

So isn't PM kinda safe form a C&D now?

Ads on streams are profit too

 

[GmJn]

"You shouldn't have done that... little brat!"

 

[EpixAura]

Nintendo is being brought up as a scapegoat as if people weren't aware that a mod had little ground. You aren't the first people who did this, none of the other companies support a mod in national fighting game tournaments and you guys aren't special enough to be made an exception. And he's not ignoring your community, it's just that he also listens to the casual side. A side that exists despite the competitive fans determined to think that they don't or that they are a "small" part of the community. Furthermore, if he were to listen to the competitive side, he's probably more likely to listen to the Japanese competitive side (which doesn't worship Melee as much as the west and has a larger preference to Final Destination-styled maps and...well, what do you know?) than the western side.

I also never said that supporting Project M meant you were trying to kill Smash 4. But look at the comments. People are screaming that they hate Smash 4 "on principle". Does that really look like the type of person that is not trying to "kill" the game out of spite?

The amount of growth is "natural"? No it isn't. In case you haven't notice, the popularity of competitive Smash received a sharp increase everytime Nintendo said anything about it. And you haven't been able to watch a mod you love at a national event. Sounds just like Street Fighter II: Project Rainbow. Except the removal of that mod didn't kill Street Fighter's popularity. And neither will the removal of your mod. Nor will it remove people who want to stream and do tournament of that game. What will kill the Smash community? A desire to kick out Nintendo and all the new people who want to join in like me.

You say Nintendo is just a scapegoat, but honestly, if they didn't get involved with the competitive scene in the first place, this wouldn't be happening. Just because Nintendo hasn't done anything involving PM doesn't mean Nintendo's involvement in the competitive scene isn't the primary reason this happening. Also, Sakurai just been listening more to the casual side (certainly can't blame him for that), he's pretty much given us the middle finger with tripping in Brawl Smash 4 was supposed to be a different matter altogether, but instead, we've seen Nintendo go out of their way to remove advanced techniques from Smash 4, and if Nintendo ever decides to make another balance patch, they'll likely remove more.
Just because someone says they hate the game on principle doesn't mean they are trying to kill it, and it certainly doesn't mean they are doing it out of spite. The vocal outbursts of Smash 4 hate are for a lot of different reasons, but they ARE for a reason.

As for the game's growth, just because the game grew after Nintendo pretending to care about the competitive aspect doesn't mean Nintendo had a huge impact. How much of the growth is from Nintendo? How much is from the documentary? How much is from the well over 100,000 viewers that watched the game at EVO when Nintendo actively tried to shut the game down? They've certainly grown the community, but it's not major enough that we wouldn't have generally reached those numbers within a few months anyway.

"The removal of that mod didn't kill Street Fighter's popularity. And neither will the removal of your mod."

This isn't about Smash's popularity as a series. Very few people believe in this #OneUnit nonsense. We aren't one community - Smash 4 made sure of that. Most of us only play one or two games, and legitimately don't care about the popularity of Smash as a whole. It's unfortunate, but given the kind of things that have been happening, I personally can't blame anyone for not caring about other games. Lastly, we have no desire to kick new players out, but we do have reason to want Nintendo to step away from the scene. We've seen them actively try to kill Melee, and it's hard to interpret what they're doing right now as anything but trying to force Smash 4 down our throats. Smash 4 was not what the competitive scene wanted, and Nintendo even went as far as removing ATs from the game. It almost seems like Nintendo thinks we're a bunch of idiots who won't realize they're just trying to make a quick, and I'm fairly certain that's exactly the case. I'm honestly embarrassed people are still clinging on to the belief that Nintendo wants to do good for the community. This is not a long-term investment from them. They want a quick buck from Smash 4, and then they'll be gone.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think outright rejecting Nintendo would be a dangerous move for a number of reasons, blahblah.

What I think of this sponsorship is mixed. We've had it for, what, 2-3 months now? Not counting EVO 2014, maybe not even that long. This has been going on for less than a year and already we're making assumptions about the end result. I feel like it's important to step back a little. This partnership is way too young (IMO) to warrant any sort of predictions as to the late future or end result. It doesn't help that it's a mostly private affair, which means I don't like saying it's for a quick buck but adversely I can't say it isn't, either, because I dunno!

I'm not saying we NEED a sponsorship, we're fine without one and if it causes problems we'd be better off without it. But I suggest treading with cautiousness and seeing where this goes. Nothing is set in stone and it's certainly not incredibly predictable.

I don't think we should vie for a Nintendo sponsorship outside of REALLY large majors however, to preserve grassroots and keep stuff clean.

TL;DR I'm treading with caution as to not sever ties, but to remain wary of the future. I'm no prophet.

 

[USB3.0]

blah blah huge post

It's this exact kind of negativity and closed-mindedness that no one even tries to tolerate other people's games for #OneUnit.

Depressing, really.

 

[xaszatm]

You say Nintendo is just a scapegoat, but honestly, if they didn't get involved with the competitive scene in the first place, this wouldn't be happening. Just because Nintendo hasn't done anything involving PM doesn't mean Nintendo's involvement in the competitive scene isn't the primary reason this happening. Also, Sakurai just been listening more to the casual side (certainly can't blame him for that), he's pretty much given us the middle finger with tripping in Brawl Smash 4 was supposed to be a different matter altogether, but instead, we've seen Nintendo go out of their way to remove advanced techniques from Smash 4, and if Nintendo ever decides to make another balance patch, they'll likely remove more.
Just because someone says they hate the game on principle doesn't mean they are trying to kill it, and it certainly doesn't mean they are doing it out of spite. The vocal outbursts of Smash 4 hate are for a lot of different reasons, but they ARE for a reason.

As for the game's growth, just because the game grew after Nintendo pretending to care about the competitive aspect doesn't mean Nintendo had a huge impact. How much of the growth is from Nintendo? How much is from the documentary? How much is from the well over 100,000 viewers that watched the game at EVO when Nintendo actively tried to shut the game down? They've certainly grown the community, but it's not major enough that we wouldn't have generally reached those numbers within a few months anyway.

"The removal of that mod didn't kill Street Fighter's popularity. And neither will the removal of your mod."

This isn't about Smash's popularity as a series. Very few people believe in this #OneUnit nonsense. We aren't one community - Smash 4 made sure of that. Most of us only play one or two games, and legitimately don't care about the popularity of Smash as a whole. It's unfortunate, but given the kind of things that have been happening, I personally can't blame anyone for not caring about other games. Lastly, we have no desire to kick new players out, but we do have reason to want Nintendo to step away from the scene. We've seen them actively try to kill Melee, and it's hard to interpret what they're doing right now as anything but trying to force Smash 4 down our throats. Smash 4 was not what the competitive scene wanted, and Nintendo even went as far as removing ATs from the game. It almost seems like Nintendo thinks we're a bunch of idiots who won't realize they're just trying to make a quick, and I'm fairly certain that's exactly the case. I'm honestly embarrassed people are still clinging on to the belief that Nintendo wants to do good for the community. This is not a long-term investment from them. They want a quick buck from Smash 4, and then they'll be gone.

1. EVO 2013 wasn't an attempt to "kill Melee". It was simply two different departments of a corporations having conflicting goals. This happens when you run an international business. Look at the timetable for that controversy. The amount of time between the pulling and reinstating is too short for it to have been a "fan" saving. Corporations need days to respond to fan stuff, this was simply a misunderstanding between two departments in Nintendo and EVO.

2. "Stuff Smash 4 down your throats?" Because of the "prime time" of Smash 4? Are people going to ignore that Smash 4 ran two hours late because MELEE WAS GOING INTO OVERTIME? Smash 4 Top 8 was ready on time. Melee's Top 48 was taking too long. If you want the time of Smash 4's Top 8 and Melee's Top 8, they had a time difference of minutes. Plus, Smash 4 went on the same time as the bloody Super Bowl. The fact that Smash 4 had only 10,000 view count difference with Melee is a godamn miracle.

And another thing, Smash 4 being before Melee...that's how tournaments work. Your biggest event is always the last event. I looked and the same thing happens to every Apex and it usually ended very late.

And I'm floored with how hated Nintendo is and how hated Smash 4 is. You really hate the series so much that you sit up on your high horse and pretend that it will die because it's not Melee? You're right in that it will die, the amount of choking and scaring off anyone who want to play Smash 4 is a sure sign of that. I am now legitimately frightened to enter any Smash 4 tournament thanks to comments like you. I suppose that gives you a rise, huh? It allows you to feel good knowing that another potential Smash 4 fan is now turning away.

I just find it highly ironic that the very same insult other players threw at Melee are now being used to throw at Smash 4. You have become the very thing you hated and are too blind to realize it.