Vectoring: The replacement to Directional Influence in Smash 4

[-_Face_-]

I'm just going to post this here for a more fundamental explanation as to what vectors are and how addition / subtraction works with them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_space

 

[Big-Cat]

VI literally is DI, so that is incorrect.

Smash 4 DI may not be Melee DI, and it may not be Brawl DI...but it is DI.

It's all semantics really (am I using that word right?).

I don't like VI because vectors implies that it's more complex than it actually is in practice. It's a 9-way air tech.

 

[SaintChairface]

I swear this is made completely overwhelming. Kudos to those that are explaining HOW it works from both a programming and a scientific standpoint, but it's like telling me how snow is made, not how to use it.

To make full use of the mechanic it has to be fully deconstructed. If for instance different characters were affected differently by some extraneous variable, such as weight or fall speed, then it would be important to discover that variable in order to tell players of that character how they should use it to full advantage.

removed. site glitched and posted twice

 

[!BSP]

So, in a nutshell, to survive, hold the control stick in the direction 180 (or 190 or 170ish since you usually want to position yourself as high as possible when you're recovering) degrees from the direction you're hit. If you want to attempt to escape from strings, hold the stick in the same direction you're being hit, or basically any direction that would make it harder for your opponent to hit you. Seems simple enough, and it warrants a different name than "DI" certainly.

The way I'm thinking about it is that with "DI", your input shifted the distance length that you were launched directly. You could manually turn it somewhat.

With vectoring, all you can is add a vector in whatever direction you want, but you can't directly control that initial distance the game determines.

 

[Roxas215]

So from what im reading does this mean that the little combos that do exists will now practically be non exisitent due to this??

 

[Big-Cat]

To make full use of the mechanic it has to be fully deconstructed. If for instance different characters were affected differently by some extraneous variable, such as weight or fall speed, then it would be important to discover that variable in order to tell players of that character how they should use it to full advantage.

Can I just play the game and test by trial and error with the big picture in mind?

So from what im reading does this mean that the little combos that do exists will now practically be non exisitent due to this??

Combos technically never existed to begin with because of DI.

 

[SaintChairface]

So, in a nutshell, to survive, hold the control stick in the direction 180 degrees from the direction you're hit. If you want to attempt to escape from strings, hold the stick in the same direction you're being hit, or basically any direction that would make it harder for your opponent to hit you. Seems simple enough, and it warrants a different name than "DI" certainly.

It would also be advantageous to hold up and towards the stage when knocked far off screen, if you wanted to recover high, or hold down and towards the stage if you wanted to recover low.

It provides options, not necessarily answers at this time.

 

[BestTeaMaker]

So from what im reading does this mean that the little combos that do exists will now practically be non exisitent due to this??

No, combos will still exist. It's just now there's a defensive option to avoid them.

And it's not like anyone will be able to perfectly VI everything. Even today the best Melee players still screw up their DI.

 

[slimjim]

I like the name "Vectoring". Thanks for the info, SB!

Edit: This is also most unfortunate a mechanic. Now we return to a perpetually neutral style game. This is horrible.

Not necessarily, especially if the strength of the influence is based upon a percentage of knockback values and not just a static change. A lot of combos/strings I've been seeing would still work if ^^^ is the case.

Also with a c-stick and a gc controller, the increased combo ability and speed of the game will more than counterbalance VI used for the purpose of escaping combos. That's just my opinion.

 

[Devil G.]

This is a huge find, I can't wait to test this new mechanic.

 

[Straider]

Why people are complaining about a mechanic that no one knows the potency or strength that it applies. It could be almost no noticeable or at least less useful than DI for escaping combos.

I remember that the first reaction of players were that DI was gone. So maybe its influence is actually lower.

 

[!BSP]

It would also be advantageous to hold up and towards the stage when knocked far off screen, if you wanted to recover high, or hold down and towards the stage if you wanted to recover low.

It provides options, not necessarily answers at this time.

Yeah, but it's probably better to stick with up and towards the stage when knocked horizontally, since you can always let yourself fall to recover low, but not the other way around (you expend jumps).

 

[LinkNIvy]

Zipzo, stop.
VI and DI are different enough to justify a different defining term. That's all that really matters.

Vectoring implies that the game is just now using vectors. No, vectors have been used for all of the games, but rotated instead of added. Vectors are not new. Maybe not call it DI since it's not technically changing the direction to try and put on the breaks, although the direction can sort of be changed if not going in the opposite direction, vectoring doesn't take sense as a term for this.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

You're not influencing your direction by holding down when hit straight up

The method of influence is irrelevant...it's still directional influence.

 

[LinkNIvy]

The method of influence is irrelevant...it's still directional influence.

I'm starting to realize that DI doesn't totally make sense as a term if it's not influencing the direction if the angle is the same, although vectoring doesn't make sense either. It's more like breaking if going in the opposite direction. Something like air breaking would make more sense and doesn't really care about how the math is done.

 

[!BSP]

Vectoring implies that the game is just now using vectors. No, vectors have been used for all of the games, but rotated instead of added. Vectors are not new. Maybe not call it DI since it's not technically changing the direction to try and put on the breaks, although the direction can sort of be changed, vectoring doesn't take sense as a term for this.

Whatever we name it is arbitrary, but it shouldn't be called DI.

"Vectoring" makes sense. You're adding a vector to the distance the game determines when you get hit. Do you have any other ideas?

The method of influence is irrelevant...it's still directional influence.

Vectoring 'can' be directional influence, but Directional influence can't be vectoring. The method is pretty relevant since it's different from previous games (holding down when launched upwards would do nothing in melee and brawl).

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The method of influence is irrelevant...it's still directional influence.

Technically, it's not. If you hold straight down when being sent straight up, you aren't influencing your direction--You're only influencing the distance in which you are sent.

If the same thing/input were used in Brawl/Melee, holding Down (or Up) would still be No DI, while in this case, it does affect movement in some way.

 

[Gardex]

The method of influence is irrelevant...it's still directional influence.

It's not irrelevant when it's the core concept of survival. You're not influencing your direction, but you're still doing something to keep yourself alive longer. Not the same thing.

 

[LinkNIvy]

Whatever we name it is arbitrary, but it shouldn't be called DI.

"Vectoring" makes sense. You're adding a vector to the distance the game determines when you get hit. Do you have any other ideas?

If Vectoring is an actual math term for adding two vectors together, then it makes sense. If not, it's just trying to sound cool. DI rotates a vector; SB4's method averages them out.

I want air break or something like that

 

[slimjim]

Technically, it's not. If you hold straight down when being sent straight up, you aren't influencing your direction--You're only influencing the distance in which you are sent.

If the same thing/input were used in Brawl/Melee, holding Down (or Up) would still be No DI, while in this case, it does affect movement in some way.

We're arguing over semantics here, but you are correct that directly up/down against a strictly up-knockback move would only influence magnitude, not direction. By influencing magnitude, it influences one of the components of the knockback vector, so Vector Influence as a name still applies. However, only straight up or straight down meets this definition, and every other conceivable angle down to whatever amount of significant figures the game code uses would influence direction. So DI is correct, but VI is statistically MORE correct.

 

[!BSP]

If Vectoring is an official term for adding two vectors together, then it makes sense. If not, it's just trying to sound cool. DI rotates a vector; SB4's method averages them out.

According to Strong Bad's graph, it's not averaging them. It's straight up addition.

If it averaged them, holding right when you get hit upwards would lower the distance you get launched upwards, which is not the case according to the graph.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

But you're ADDING knockback, not subtracting it. Adding it in the opposite direction just happens to lower the distance you're sent. Doing it in the opposite direction sends you further.

EDIT: This thread gets posts quickly as it is.

 

[Accelerator]

That is, of course, unless you actually know the definition of the word direction, which simply defines any variation of a path or course of movement, it doesn't just simply apply to a change in angle on a flat 2D plane of existence.

"VI" is still a form of directional influence, therefore there is nothing inaccurate about simply calling this mechanic DI. It's not like the original DI remains in the game for their to be any confusion, it was simply replaced by this "new" type of DI.

Yes, let's have a tech have the same name of another tech in a different game in the series while it is completely different in nature and applications.

 

[HeavyLobster]

It depends on how much of this is already being done by the higher level CPUs. I can't say anything about how optimal their VI is, but they definitely have been using it to some extent, unless I'm seeing some other method of altering where you wind up after getting hit. It really depends on what a human with optimal VI can do beyond what we're seeing from CPUs, since even when CPUs VI in a way that makes sense, it's usually not enough to avoid getting comboed if the attacker follows up properly, especially when it comes to combo-based characters like Mario and Pikachu. We need more testing to really find out what this means for Smash 4.

 

[Spyro]

Interesting, it looks like "vectoring" will make this game more brawl - like rather than melee - like, can't say that I'm all that surprised though.

 

[Shadow the Past]

While what you say is true, I don't think it's nearly as much of an obstacle as you just implied.

Some mechanics work different in other games of a series, it doesn't mean said mechanic gets a new term. Anyone who truly is interested in playing multiple iterations of Smash is likely very keenly aware at that point that some mechanics probably differ, and it's up to them to do that research to inform themselves of the details.

Again, the difference being that we continue to play old iterations of the series even when new ones come out. This is relatively uncommon for most series, at least to the extent that we do it.

When a newer player hears a commetator on a video say "Good DI!" they either think "I know what DI is" or "I don't know what DI is and I want to find out what it is". Calling vectoring in Smash 4 DI is counterproductive to this, because if we hear a Smash 4 commentator say "Good DI", players transferring from old games to Smash 4 will think "I know what DI is because there was DI in older games" and just lead to confusion because it is not the same as DI. Calling it VI makes both old and new players go "I don't know what VI is and I want to find out".

 

[Tagxy]

Option selects are viable IMO.
Let's say the opponent can either kill you upward or off the left side of the stage. You could argue that VIing downward is bad if you get hit left, and VIing inward has no effect on your upward KO percent. A sort-of mixup, where it's not bad to do one thing,
Except you can VI both down and in, covering both scenarios.

Unless blast zones work different in smash 4, you should still have to be concerned with the direction it sends you as well. Perhaps theres something I missed which I understand is likely, but otherwise this is my biggest gripe with your game play analysis.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

if i remember correctly one of the tips that the game has rebrands DI as "hitstun shuffling".. which tbh sounds kind of funny.

 

[mmKALLL]

@ Strong Badam - I would guess that this has already been addressed, but due to there not being any relevant info regarding it in the OP, I was left wondering. Are you absolutely certain that diagonal vectors are positioned as a square (as shown by the diagram) rather than along a circle? If it's the former, inputting vectoring diagonally in relation to the original knockback would obviously have a far stronger effect. Did you verify it with non-vertical knockbacks as well?

 

[A Lucky Person]

Again, the difference being that we continue to play old iterations of the series even when new ones come out. This is relatively uncommon for most series, at least to the extent that we do it.

When a newer player hears a commetator on a video say "Good DI!" they either think "I know what DI is" or "I don't know what DI is and I want to find out what it is". Calling vectoring in Smash 4 DI is counterproductive to this, because if we hear a Smash 4 commentator say "Good DI", players transferring from old games to Smash 4 will think "I know what DI is because there was DI in older games" and just lead to confusion because it is not the same as DI. Calling it VI makes both old and new players go "I don't know what VI is and I want to find out".

This. We can't call it the same thing when it doesn't work in the same way. It's similar, but definitely not the same.

 

[MadKraken]

Lol, all this name debate. Imma contribute: How about DESTINATION AIMING?

It's kind of like playing a game of darts on a square dart board, where not holding anything makes your dart hit the middle of the board, but you can aim for the corners or sides if you wish.


Final position of character after knockback subsides:

A---B---C
| \ | / |
D---E---F
| / | \ |
G---H---I

A = HOLDING DIAGONALLY UP + LEFT
B = HOLDING UP
C = HOLDING DIAGINALLY UP + RIGHT
D = HOLDING LEFT
E = NO INPUT
F = HOLDING RIGHT
G = HOLDING DIAGONALLY DOWN + LEFT
H = HOLDING DOWN
I = HOLDING DIAGONALLY RIGHT + DOWN

Doesn't matter from where you were hit or what direction you're flying, your ultimate destination looks like the above, where position E is if you don't touch the control stick.

For example: If you're gonna end up passing the upper right corner of the blast zone by default, destinations A, B, C, D, E, F, H, and I might be KOs, but holding down-left will put you in the safety of destination G.

 

[Tagxy]

Ignoring inputs, DI is technically vector addition as well, just in a more limited way.

 

[NobleClamtasm]

Ignoring inputs, DI is technically vector addition as well, just in a more limited way.

No it is not. DI is simply changing the angle of the trajectory. VI is changing both the angle and the magnitude, which is what vector additions do.

 

[Gawain]

A lot of people freaking out over the breadth of the effects of something we only just barely understand.

 

[Tagxy]

No it is not. DI is simply changing the angle of the trajectory. VI is changing both the angle and the magnitude, which is what vector additions do.

DI definitely has magnitude or you wouldnt travel anywhere. As I said its just more limited in the range of its angle.

Spoiler

Lol, all this name debate. Imma contribute: How about DESTINATION AIMING?

It's kind of like playing a game of darts on a square dart board, where not holding anything makes your dart hit the middle of the board, but you can aim for the corners or sides if you wish.


Final position of character after knockback subsides:

A---B---C
| \ | / |
D---E---F
| / | \ |
G---H---I

A = HOLDING DIAGONALLY UP + LEFT
B = HOLDING UP
C = HOLDING DIAGINALLY UP + RIGHT
D = HOLDING LEFT
E = NO INPUT
F = HOLDING RIGHT
G = HOLDING DIAGONALLY DOWN + LEFT
H = HOLDING DOWN
I = HOLDING DIAGONALLY RIGHT + DOWN

Doesn't matter from where you were hit or what direction you're flying, your ultimate destination looks like the above, where position E is if you don't touch the control stick.

For example: If you're gonna end up passing the upper left corner of the blast zone neutrally, destinations A, B, C, D, E, F, H, and I might be KOs, but holding down-left will put you in the safety of destination G.

This is awesome. This also helps me to illustrate what I wanted to earlier

Based on this hit, the optimal Hitstun Shuffle/ "VI" would be along the purple line as far as I can tell.

 

[AlbobDS]

Soooo... basically if i'm getting this right, Vectoring makes all kill moves kill at higher percents, when people are already not dying till around 160% from people not knowing kill moves?

These matches are going to be soooo slowwwwwwww

 

[Big-Cat]

Everyone is so concerned with survival with this.

I'm surprised no one's looking into followups with this in mind. At least in this thread anyway.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Honestly, the crux of this in the late meta is that people can escape combos earlier but are put in a bad position. I would argue that, once this is mastered, this is going to push forth an aggressive meta not made up of combos(while low % combos will still exist, obviously), but more along the lines of following someone aggressively in the air and punishing their next option accordingly.

Less set in stone, more dynamic. I swear, people freaking out about this, my friend made a good comparison. In some anime fighters, throw teching can be used as both an escape but it can also be advantageous to the player whose throw got teched, as they can set up a followup to predict their opponent's next action. As long as people push forward and punish, this has potential to actually FORCE more aggressive onstage play and the idea that once you get someone offstage you HAVE to gimp them.

Again though, grain of salt, all predictions here.

Let me add that the additional survivability will really only be super prevalent on vertical stuff, gimps will still be amazing and this game is going to promote offstage. I look forward to it, honestly.

 

[Gawain]

Soooo... basically if i'm getting this right, Vectoring makes all kill moves kill at higher percents, when people are already not dying till around 160% from people not knowing kill moves?

These matches are going to be soooo slowwwwwwww

People are probably already sub-consciously doing this though. The way you survive longer is simply by holding int he opposite direction you are being hit in. People do that already. Again people like you freaking out are almost surely freaking out over nothing.

 

[teluoborg]

Lol, all this name debate. Imma contribute: How about DESTINATION AIMING?

Ooooooooooooooooor........ You know........ Destination Influencing, and we could............. like......... shorten it to.......... hum....

DI !?!??


Tbh I'm impressed people haven't tried to shove some "wave" or "cancel" into the name so far, but just because the mechanics of DI have changed doesn't mean it needs a new name. In the end you're still pushing your stick to live longer.